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  #1  
Old 14-09-2017, 12:35
Philippe R. DAVID Philippe R. DAVID is offline
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Default IJN Yamato and IJN Musashi - Stern actual design

Dear All,

I'm desperately trying to find evidence of the actual design of the giant battleships' sterns. Gakken Rekishi shows one, Kure Museum 1/10th model shows another, most plastic or resin models show a more or less "round" stern and now MM. Janusz Skulski & Stefan Draminsky upgraded "Anatomy of a ship" book about "Battleships Yamato and Musashi" comes with a revolutionary new one !
I hoped that the discovery of the wrecks and the subsequent expeditions would show that evidence I'm looking for but...nothing ! Nada ! Nichts ! Rien !!!
I have asked this in various fora with the same disappointing result : nobody knows...
I hope that this time someone could help.
For a better understanding, I attach pictures of a 3D image and sketches of "Gakken Rekishi", of 1/10th Kure's Yamato and of 3D and sketches illustrating the latest design shown as the actual one by MM. Skuslski & Draminsky.

Thank you for your attention and possible help and best regards,


Philippe
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 2017-08-10 002.jpg (1.75 MB, 49 views)
File Type: jpg 2017-08-10 001.jpg (1.11 MB, 33 views)
File Type: jpg yamato_battleship_kure_9337.jpg (128.9 KB, 43 views)
File Type: jpg IJN Yamato' stern LD.jpg (64.2 KB, 41 views)
File Type: jpg 2017-09-11 001.jpg (1.81 MB, 27 views)
File Type: jpg 2017-09-11 002.jpg (693.5 KB, 36 views)
File Type: jpg 2017-09-11 004.jpg (1.19 MB, 22 views)
File Type: jpg 2017-09-11 005.jpg (1.11 MB, 20 views)
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  #2  
Old 22-09-2017, 12:03
Grosser Kreuzer Grosser Kreuzer is offline
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Default Re: IJN Yamato and IJN Musashi - Stern actual design

Philippe,

I think that you have a problem here that no-one on this site is going to be able to give you any guidance on.

I have a copy of Skulski's first "Anatomy" as it concerns "Yamato" and have generally taken it that he is the "authority" on this ship in the West. This is because of his interest and the "contacts" that he has made in Japan that enabled him to produce the work that he did. However, he was coy as to what information he obtained from his sources and I am not aware of any Japanese sources that have been anymore forthcoming.

Leaving aside "deep" research, if I were to "trust" anything at all, it would have to be the Sheer and Body Plans as printed in the first edition of Skulski. Does the new book differ from the first edition as regards those subjects? Unfortunately, you have not shown us any images. If it does, then one would have to be obliged to believe the up-dated drawing as being based on newly-obtained information. Therefore it will set the previous drawings aside.

I am not a naval architect but do have a limited knowledge of drawing a ship's water-lines from information held. If you have the Body Plan and Sheer Drawing of any ship, you should be able to draw your own plan and "fair up" a given line. You should be able to do this with the images in the two Skulski books.

I have not done this myself but looking at the Body/Sheer drawing in the first edition of Skulski that looks possible though I think that there may be difficulties with that very "hard" turn up from the bottom of the after body to the transom, which itself only starts above the waterline. Perhaps the Japanese were able to overcome this: possibly by means of a casting. It is stated somewhere that this was unusually heavy for the actual ship, which might explain this.

I think that this is as far as I can go with this one. I hope that you find the answer you want here, otherwise, I can only advise writing to the museum that owns that large model and inviting it to ask the model's maker where they obtained the information from regarding the stern where it seems to differ so much from previously published information. It is worth a try.

In my experience, obtaining the last 10% of what you want for a project is the most frustrating part of all. One can only keep trying.

GK
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  #3  
Old 22-09-2017, 12:54
Philippe R. DAVID Philippe R. DAVID is offline
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Default Re: IJN Yamato and IJN Musashi - Stern actual design

Dear Grosser Kreuzer Commander,

Thank you for your attention and time spent to answer.
You wrote that I did " Unfortunately, (you) have not shown (us) any images." and that's an issue because for a better understanding, I attached pictures of a 3D image and sketches of "Gakken Rekishi", of 1/10th Kure's Yamato and of 3D and sketches illustrating the latest design shown as the actual one by MM. Skuslski & Draminsky.
All those appear to me...but why couldn't you see them in my post ?
Should I re-post them ?

Once more many thanks for advice and best regards,


Philippe
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  #4  
Old 22-09-2017, 14:37
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jbryce1437 jbryce1437 is offline
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Default Re: IJN Yamato and IJN Musashi - Stern actual design

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philippe R. DAVID View Post
Should I re-post them ?


Philippe
No need to re-post them, all eight attachments should be viewable to members reading the first post.

Jim
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  #5  
Old 23-09-2017, 13:35
Grosser Kreuzer Grosser Kreuzer is offline
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Default Re: IJN Yamato and IJN Musashi - Stern actual design

Philippe,

Thank you for Post 3. I did open the images attached to your first post. I had trouble seeing just where the stern in "Gakken Rekishi" actually differed from that in the first edition of "Skulski" and was wondering if the second edtion differed. To save any further confusion on the part of anyone else trying to read this I will communicate a more detailed reply by PM. This may take a few days.

GK
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  #6  
Old 25-09-2017, 01:02
wdavis wdavis is offline
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Default Re: IJN Yamato and IJN Musashi - Stern actual design

Have you tried the folks over on the Nihon Kaigun website?
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  #7  
Old 26-09-2017, 04:31
Kevin Denlay Kevin Denlay is offline
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Default Re: IJN Yamato and IJN Musashi - Stern actual design

Quote:
Originally Posted by wdavis View Post
Have you tried the folks over on the Nihon Kaigun website?
Or even better, directly here;

http://www.j-aircraft.org/smf/index....j2&boa rd=5.0
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  #8  
Old 26-09-2017, 05:10
Kevin Denlay Kevin Denlay is offline
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Default Re: IJN Yamato and IJN Musashi - Stern actual design

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philippe R. DAVID View Post
I'm desperately trying to find evidence of the actual design of the giant battleships' sterns.
Philippe, on second thoughts, I am not sure if IJN BB's even had sterns.

After all, look here, Nagato has none!

(Divers give some size comparison with regards what we are looking at.)
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Nagato stern and twin rudders jpg.jpg (103.1 KB, 33 views)
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  #9  
Old 02-10-2017, 06:13
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Don Boyer Don Boyer is offline
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Default Re: IJN Yamato and IJN Musashi - Stern actual design

All the photos I've seen of Yamato and not a one that gives a clear shot of her stern as built. The paintings, drawings etc. that abound out there vary, as you've pointed out. My tendency would be to go with the Yamato museum rendition -- they put more work into accuracy that anyone else I know of when they constructed the model.
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  #10  
Old 03-10-2017, 03:54
elskipper elskipper is offline
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Default Re: IJN Yamato and IJN Musashi - Stern actual design

I always thought it had a great big rocket engine in the stern....

Sorry, couldn't resist. It never occurred to me I've never seen a shot of their sterns.
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  #11  
Old 04-10-2017, 04:49
Kevin Denlay Kevin Denlay is offline
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Default Re: IJN Yamato and IJN Musashi - Stern actual design

Quote:
Originally Posted by elskipper View Post
I always thought it had a great big rocket engine in the stern....

Sorry, couldn't resist.
Well now, that's what may have blown off Nagato's stern then.

Sorry, couldn't resist either!
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  #12  
Old 04-10-2017, 21:39
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designeraccd designeraccd is offline
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Default Re: IJN Yamato and IJN Musashi - Stern actual design

Curiously, the excellent cover rendering of WARSHIP PICTORIAL 25 (Yamato class) shows a slightly "squared off" stern. However. the enlarged overhead pic of her under attack (Oct 26, 44) on page 23 appears to show a rounded stern!!


The huge 110' model at Kure does show a slightly "squared" off stern with radiused edges. Attached is a clearer view of the model's stern. Therefore???????? DFO
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File Type: jpg 110' Yamato stern.jpg (79.5 KB, 33 views)
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  #13  
Old 05-12-2017, 22:18
Sandy McAuslan Sandy McAuslan is offline
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Default Re: IJN Yamato and IJN Musashi - Stern actual design

I own a copy of Naval Vessels 1887-1945 Mitsubishi Zosen Built published by Nippon Kobo Co. Ltd.. They built Musashi and there is a significant body of data from Mr Shizo Fukui including an approx. A4 set of drawings with a profile and three horizontal sections of Musashi at levels of Upper Deck, Lower deck and 2nd Hold. I will attempt a scan of these if you are still interested.
Sandy McAuslan
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  #14  
Old 06-12-2017, 10:30
Kevin Denlay Kevin Denlay is offline
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Default Re: IJN Yamato and IJN Musashi - Stern actual design

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandy McAuslan View Post
I own a copy of Naval Vessels 1887-1945 Mitsubishi Zosen Built published by Nippon Kobo Co. Ltd.. They built Musashi and there is a significant body of data from Mr Shizo Fukui including an approx. A4 set of drawings with a profile and three horizontal sections of Musashi at levels of Upper Deck, Lower deck and 2nd Hold. I will attempt a scan of these if you are still interested.
Sandy McAuslan
Well I'm interested PLEASE, and thanks!
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  #15  
Old 07-12-2017, 21:15
Sandy McAuslan Sandy McAuslan is offline
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Default Re: IJN Yamato and IJN Musashi - Stern actual design

Hope this works - it has been some time!
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File Type: jpg Document (3).jpg (694.7 KB, 32 views)
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  #16  
Old 07-12-2017, 21:28
Kevin Denlay Kevin Denlay is offline
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Default Re: IJN Yamato and IJN Musashi - Stern actual design

It woooooorked!

THANKS Sandy!
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  #17  
Old 08-12-2017, 04:49
elskipper elskipper is offline
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Default Re: IJN Yamato and IJN Musashi - Stern actual design

Thank you for posting that!
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  #18  
Old 08-12-2017, 05:18
Sandy McAuslan Sandy McAuslan is offline
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Default Re: IJN Yamato and IJN Musashi - Stern actual design

Thanks gentlemen. I was always impressed with the detail of the compartmentalisation and believed that no one would have gone to that much effort - unless it was genuine. I have seen very similar drawings - in style - at the Denny tank museum just down the road from me. I suppose the yard drawings were vaporised - Musashi was built in Nagasaki after all.
It casts doubt on the beautifully contoured below water stern shape shown on the model. Glands and stuffing boxes for four props and two rudders have their specific demands.
Cheers, Sandy.
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Old 08-12-2017, 06:19
Kevin Denlay Kevin Denlay is offline
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Default Re: IJN Yamato and IJN Musashi - Stern actual design

Sandy, I hope you don't mind but I have taken the liberty and re-posted 'your' plans on two English speaking but Japanese centric forums (shrunken somewhat to fit their file size), with full credit to you of course and a link to this thread.

I hope you don't mind, but as the old saying goes "it's oft better to ask forgiveness than permission".

But no, in all seriousness, as with any image I post, once posted I feel their fair game so to speak, otherwise I wouldn't post them in the first place. I hope you feel the same.

Again, thanks for posting!
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  #20  
Old 08-12-2017, 18:33
Sandy McAuslan Sandy McAuslan is offline
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Default Re: IJN Yamato and IJN Musashi - Stern actual design

No problems. Glad you are interested. I have compared with the illustrations in Beyer's Battleships of the world and Warship Profile 30 but believe the rapid 'fining down' of the stern exit and square underwater sectioning would be quite realistic. The construction problems of the 3 dimensional curves inherent in the model would be very hard to achieve with 1940 technology. As it was the stern casting was about 90 tons (given as 91.3 but was that short tons, tons or tonnes?) My son was always very keen on the class. Personally I am not their greatest fan.
Cheers, Sandy
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