ID Japanese Ship Photos -- Help!

[Don Boyer]

This post is for Astraltrader [Terry] and you other collectors of photos who seem to make the Imperial War Museum and the National Archives look sparse.

I seem to have gotten myself into a bit of a tiff with a couple of Japanese Navy ship buffs over that website that has digitally colored and enhanced photos of Japanese warships by repeating in more detail a post I had originally made on this forum. While many of those photos are gorgeous and something we history buffs wish were "real" from back in the day, I am thoroughly suspicious of two of those photos in particular (and possibly a couple of others) as being not only colorized enhancements, but total constructs, which to me is historical cheating. I've attached the two photos to this post in the hopes that I am actually proven wrong.

One photos is of the carrier Akagi, supposedly in early 1942, with the rest of the Kido Butai spread in line down her starboard aft side. I've never seen it before and I thought I'd seen about every WWII Japanese photo there was. Additionally, if that photo existed even in black and white, it would be a naval photo treasure that the Japanese themselves would have been more than proud to publish. I don't think I've ever heard or seen a photo showing more than a portion of the Kido Butai at any time during its existence.

The second photo is also of Akagi, taken from an aircraft that has supposedly just taken off from her flight deck. Again, this is a gorgeous and desirable photo I have never seen before. It's so good its one that makes me say "too good to be true." The fact that it imitates the famous Enterprise photo that is often considered "the" photo of Enterprise during the war bothers me as well as the detail shown in the Japanese photo and the so-straight ship's wake that indicates the best helmsman in the IJN must be on duty.

So, Terry and you guys who have such complete and "make me sick" jealous collections, ( --believe me, I know you came about those collections by hard work! ) do you have the black and white originals of these two in your collections, with verifiable information??? If so, I will humbly apologize to my two insulted buffs, otherwise I will collect a case of cold beer or the dollar equivalent thereof.

[kronserg]

These are very known photos. And they - real.
Here their b/w versions:



... and some more pictures of the IJNS Akagi in its last configuration:

[Don Boyer]

Sigh...I knew somebody out there would come to the rescue.

Color me humbled and wearing sackcloth and ashes.....

Thanks, kronserg. No beer for me this weekend!!!

Sincerely,

[kronserg]

Always please, Don... Was glad to help to explain a question.

And as to photos of the Imperial Japanese Navy - that always will be or rare, or what did not seen earlier.

As, for example, here this truly rare wartime-shot of the heavy cruiser Ashigara:

[John Odom]

Great pictures! I have wondered if it was real, I had only seen the colorized one.

[astraltrader]

I have literally hundreds of the colourised IJN pictures and to my knowledge they are all taken from original ones...

[spruso]

Originally Posted by kronserg

Always please, Don... Was glad to help to explain a question.

And as to photos of the Imperial Japanese Navy - that always will be or rare, or what did not seen earlier.

As, for example, here this truly rare wartime-shot of the heavy cruiser Ashigara:

Hi,
First time I've seen the photo of Ashigara. I have had no luck trying to navigate that Russian site. Are there any photos of Haguro, Mogami, and Mikuma on there? and is there a DD section.

Cheers
Bruce

[astraltrader]

Me neither Bruce - its almost as if one has to wade through every single picture in order to find anything!!

[kronserg]

This site – www.radikal.ru is not a website in full understanding of this word. It only the storehouse for placing of photos, and searching system there is not present in principle. That is, everyone can place the any image, and then receive hyperlinks to it, for their placing at forums. As ours.

[kronserg]

Originally Posted by spruso

and is there a DD section.

Well known photo - one of few surviving destroyers of the Imperial Japanese Navy - Harutsuki in Hiroshima Bay (January, 1945)

[JohnMGD]

Hi Kronserg,

Isn't there a link to your pictures on this Russian site ?

Regards

John Dohmen.

[Graham Barnes]

Hello,

The photo taken from the flight deck of flagship Akagi with crewmen on deck in front of their planes was taken about 26 March, 1942 as VADM Nagumo's Kido Butai left Staring Bay near Kendari, Celebes, steaming across the flat Banda Sea for the C sakusen, or Indian Ocean Raid. The ships are--from front to rear--Akagi, [note the absence of Kaga] Soryu & Hiryu (of 2 Kokusentai), followed by the four battleships of Sentai 3, Kongo (F), Haruna, Hiei (F) & Kirishima, and with the junior carriers of 5 Kokusentai Shokaku & Zuikaku bringing up the rear, with screening vessels in the distance.

There were a number of other photos taken at this time, as the Japanese were determined to exploit their ongoing successes with more photos & films during these operations.

[Kevin Denlay]

Another image of those bad boys, but from the other end of the pack it seems.

A great photo unfortunately ‘spoilt’ (in this instance) by being a double page spread (copied from Gakken #3 - Indian Ocean Operation).

As a matter of fact, as to 'other photos' the very knowledgeable GB alludes to, there are actually seven double page spreads in the section of the magazine this came from, the two Don B posted in first post, another onboard a carrier, Hermes sinking, Dorsetshire and Cornwall under attack, and a very dramatic one of Cornwall sinking.

[Kevin Denlay]

And Bruce, here is a bigger one of the previous small image of Ashigara.

Anyone know where it is taken?

[spruso]

Thanks Kevin,

Just a guess but possibly Singapore?

Cheers
Bruce

[Batstiger]

I didn't know where to place this one, any ideas?

Bob.

[Alex Shenec]

Hi Bob.

"KAGA"

Originally Posted by Batstiger

I didn't know where to place this one, any ideas?
Bob.

Best regards

Alex

[culverin]

The photo of Ashigara in # 14, and earlier, is one i heave seen many times before and a well known, supposed, picture of this fine Myoko class heavy cruiser.
Still i have no idea of the exact time or location but is probably 1942. Very few war mods have been added to her at this time, a number were incorporated before her final sinking by HMS Trenchant on 8 June 1945.
Prior to the war she was probably the most photograhed IJN warship when she attended the fleet review in 1936 and visited other European ports too.
I believe that little can now be gleaned from her remains as they have been heavily salvaged over the intervening decades and she is now in poor condition, difficult to access and see.

[FlasherTM]

1942-12 at Seletar Naval base, Singapore where she was undergoing repairs.

[Kevin Denlay]

Originally Posted by FlasherTM

1942-12 at Seletar Naval base, Singapore where she was undergoing repairs.

Thanks for the above.

A couple of questions.

When you say ‘Seletar’ Naval Base I assume you mean the captured British naval base at Sembawang (as I am unaware of a naval base being at Seletar itself)?

The only other date I have seen for the photo (in Warship Pictorial #17) gives it as ‘middle of 1943’ (but does not say where). Her TROM certainly puts her at Singapore in Dec/42 and again in Oct/43. What makes you think it is Dec/42?

[Graham Barnes]

Hello,

Re the use of Seletar to designate the naval base...

It's often found in Japanese sources--as in CruBible by Lacroix & Wells, which refers to the "Seletar Military Harbor" and "Seletar Naval Harbor" (Seletar Gunko) and this is described as formerly the "British naval base at Seletar in the Johore Strait"...This designation was also used by VADM Ugaki Matome in his diary (translated by Masataka Chihaya & edited by Prange, Goldstein, & Dillon as Fading Victory).

There were of course airfields "at" Seletar and Sembawang as well.

[Kevin Denlay]

Thanks for that info Don. I have always wondered where that incorrect reference to the base location originated from, that is, was it after the fact (i.e. post WWII) or the Japanese themselves during WWII. Take for instance the photos on pages 54 and 55 of Warship Pictorial 17 (Myoko Class Cruisers) which shows Ashigara in the KGVI dry-dock at the ex British Naval Base at Sembawang, but referenced as at the ‘Seletar Naval Base’.

So it seems the Japanese themselves are the source (that is of course unless they actually built a naval base / facility at Seletar itself?). As can be seen by the map of Singapore circa 1941, the naval base (+KGVI dry dock) and the Seletar ‘harbour’ are actually some distance apart.

[Graham Barnes]

Hello,

I suspect the Japanese are indeed responsible for this designation of SELETAR for the location of the Naval Base. In contemporary docs/books and others after the war I have never seen it identified as being at SEMBAWANG...just the airfield there. I did find one British (or Australian) book which spoke of a jetty/docks at Seletar and it implied flying boats were operating near there. But, in Cecil Brown, Russell Braddon, Stanley Falk, Bernard Ash, Richard Hough, Peter Elphick, Noel Barber, Ivan Simson (I knew the map looked familiar) and Eugene Miller's excellent Strategy at Singapore (of 1942) we do not find any reference to either Seletar or Sembawang as the location of the Naval Base. Almost all say "on the Strait of Johore" (at the most) and that's about it...

[Graham Barnes]

Hello,

Dug out McIntyre's book on the naval base & noticed it said that SELETAR was chosen (in 1922) as a site for a seaplane base, but it is quite explicit that SEMBAWANG was to be the dockyard location. There's an interesting little aside which says British naval intelligence noted that most of the land on the Johore side of the strait had been purchased by the Japanese, but this appears to have been disregarded. Certainly Imperial Japanese military officers passing through--often in civilian clothing--were prone to wander about the Singapore area trying to acquire more intelligence on its size and capacities, etc. over the years...and you get the impression that up to a point this must not have been too difficult.

FWIW

[gunslinger]

The Naval Base at Sembawang was always simply called the "Naval Base".
RAF Seletar did indeed have ramps and operate seaplanes in the 30's, and IIRC, the late 40's and early 50's as well.

- An ex-resident ('72-75)