HMCS Athabaskan 1970-

[dpoidy]

Thanks for that update Brian, told my boss, I think a road trip down the QEW is in order when she gets here, another trip to Anapolis and that one to see Athe B will be good this year

[smartd]

HMCS ATHABASKAN arrived in Port Weller this week for a refit expected to last until December 2012.
Now 40 years old she must be getting tired of all the facelifts.
A couple of photos and some of the work to be done. And a photo from last year.
An addendum states that the sonar dome is to be removed for vessel transfer.

[Brian Wentzell]

Thanks for the pictures and the statement of refit work. By the look of the starboard quarter, it looks as if she was scraping the walls of a seaway lock. The transfer of the sonar dome to another ship is a bit curious. Algonquin and Iroquois are both operational unless one has a problem.

Brian

[BlackBat242]

Perhaps one of them recently bumped something with their dome?

[smartd]

5/15 - Port Weller, Ont. – A destroyer undergoing a retrofit at Seaway Marine Industrial was found to need relatively little structural repair, resulting in the temporary layoff of 14 workers there. “It has reduced our need for steel fitters in the short-term,” said Charlie Payne, director of operations at the dry docks. “These will be temporary layoffs for a about two weeks.”

Of those positions, some are steel fitters and others “C” class painters. Earlier this year, the Port Weller facility was awarded a $21.7-million federal contract to refit the 39-year-old Iroquois-class destroyer based in Halifax.

Payne said overall work is about 20 percent complete, with physical work on the vessel about 1/10 finished.

Factoring in the temporary layoffs, there are 170 people now working on the job. The refit will include underwater work, as well as comprehensive maintenance and repairs on ship systems, such as firefighting and electrical systems, as well as deck equipment. The project will be completed in early November.

St. Catharines Standard

[Brian Wentzell]

This is encouraging news as hull life is a concern in older ships. These ships may hyet see 50 years as their combat systems are relatively modern. There are known issues with the mast and helicopter deck and the latter needs some thought as there is a question of whether the class can handle the CH 149 Cyclone in lieu of the CH 124 Sea King.
Brian

[BCRenown]

Excellent updates gentlemen. Do you know if there will be any major alterations to Athabaskan's appearance?

[Brian Wentzell]

Monty: The problem with the Tribal Class is that they near their weight limits. A lot of command electronics and attennas have been added to Iroquois and Athabaskan, but not as much Algonqiun, and this has contributed to the weight. The masts are of lattice design and they are corrosion prone. The helicopter deck does not meet current standards and would need modification and reinforcement to handle the Cyclone. On the other hand the VDS has been removed and the system decommissioned on all ships.

I suspect that no major alterations will be made and the ships will continue to operate one Sea King until the RCAF says they can no longer be safely flown. That will happen once the Cyclone is operational. After that, the task force commander will have to find a diffferent way to visit his ships while underway!

Brian

[BCRenown]

Brian,

Thanks for that. Are there plans (and funds) for similar work to be carried out on Algonquin and Iroquois also?

Warships aren't much to look at these days but the 280s are downright beautiful. I hope they stay around for a long time to come.

[Brian Wentzell]

Monty: HMCS Iroqouis was refitted in 2011 and one presumes HMCS Algonquin will be refitted upon HMCS Athabaskan returning to service in 2013. Money, as always, will be an issue.
Brian

[Brian Wentzell]

Monty:

The Ottawa Citizen newspaper reports that it has uncovered a briefing note prepared for the Associate Minister of National Defence, Julian Fantino, in 2011 that indicated the Iroquois (Tribal) Class ships will start to be retired beginning in 2017. Is this proceeds, and these destroyers will then be 44-45 years old, there will be a gap in Area Air Defence capability once all three disappear, probably by 2019. Given the current refit schedule, the retirements will probably be as follows: HMCS Iroquois in 2017, Athabaskan in 2018, and Algonquin in 2019.

The command role will be assumed by four of the modernised Halifax Class divided evenly between the Atlantic and Pacific Fleets. The Area Air Defence role will be replaced sometime in the next decade by the new, not yet designed, surface combatant.

Brian

[BCRenown]

Brian,

Thanks as always for the recent update. I'd like to think that at least a pair of Tribals will remain in commission until new area air defence destroyers/frigates join the fleet. For sure, total lack of such would be a serious shortcoming in future fleet operations.

[Brian Wentzell]

Monty: It really comes down to the material condition of the ships and that is affected by how hard they are used and maintained.

One problem that will restrict the utility of the ships is the retirement of the Sea King helicopter. The Tribals are not being modified for the CH148 Cyclone helicopter and no one has suggested that the RCAF will maintain the Sea King once the Cyclone arrives. The Cyclone is heavier and therefore the deck needs to be reinforced and modified, which gets us to the other problem of these ships-they are near their wieght limit now. So, I am not sure they are really worth retention.

Brian

[Chukk]

Just for argument sake, how much more weight would we have to add to the ship to re-enforce the flight deck for the new Helo's? With the continued "miniaturization" of electronics, removal of the VDS and other upgrades, wouldn't the 280's have lost enough weight to implement a new flight deck.
Denying these ships their helo's is a huge lost to their capabilities!

Chukk

[Brian Wentzell]

Chukk: You would have to ask a naval engineer about the weight implications of the various changes. I have been told there are major costs associated with installing the CH148 Cyclone as its onboard logisitics requirements are handled differently from those of the Sea King. The flight deck does not meet current standards and requirements for the Cyclone as well. On another front the mast structure also has issues with corrosion. I suspect that the cost of proper fixes and alterations would be considerable, particularlay when one considers the age of the hull, main machinery, and "hotel" systems.

With the Sea King facing retirement and the Air Force not wanting to maintain two maritime helicopters, I don't see much sympathy from them.

The Navy might make a case for their retention as pure anti-air destroyers; that is not likely to find much favour as their costs have to be absorbed from a tightening budget. The command of the task group role will be provided by four of the Halifax Class frigates which will have the necessary systems and accommodation for the necessary staff. ASW is better handled by the frigates and submarines. I think the time has come for the Tribals to decommission.

Brian

[esl]

Do we have any lighter naval helicopters to operate or naval RPVs?

[Scatari]

esl

The RCN has no lighter helos ... although there are lighter helos in the Canadian Forces, the venerable Seakings are the only aircraft currently suitable for use at sea

No naval RPVs yet ... perhaps in the future?

[esl]

Originally Posted by Scatari

esl

The RCN has no lighter helos ... although there are lighter helos in the Canadian Forces, the venerable Seakings are the only aircraft currently suitable for use at sea

No naval RPVs yet ... perhaps in the future?

Hi Scatari

Area Air defence is something all naval groups need in battle. How good are the Halifax class at area airdefence?

I think I would still keep them just for the SAM capabilty.

[Brian Wentzell]

ESL: One of the yet undiscussed issues/opportunities coming out of the Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ships program is the fact that these ships are designed (thus far) to handle lighter helicopters as well as the CH148 Cyclone (but without the hauldown device). They will be able to accept the CH 149 Cormorant on the helicopter deck but not into the hangar. If a light helicopter were acquired (marinised Bell 412 or Eurocopter equivalent?), the same could be used on the Tribals for general communications and utility duties. The Scaneagle UAV is already at sea on HMCS Charlottetown on its current deployment.

However, once the Halifax Class is modernised, the only justification for the Tribals will be the anti-air capability which the Halifax Class cannot replace, even with Evolved Seasparrow.

Brian

[Scatari]

esl:

The Halifax Class can't measure up to the 280s when it comes to air defence ... but keeping the three 280s in service just for that capability would be a very expensive luxury ... which the navy just can't afford.

[Brian Wentzell]

Scatari: I agree. The Tribals require large crews and have all gas turbine propulsion, so they are gas guzzlers compared to the Halifax Class frigates. The AAW function can be better provided by our allies which have younger ships and newer combat systems.
Brian

[Chukk]

I agree Brian that keeping the 280 just for AAW makes no sense. But I would have to argue the statement "The AAW function can be better provided by our allies which have younger ships and newer combat systems". Even though what you said is true, the moment we start basing Canada's combat capabilities on the assumption that our allies will fill in the missing part, that is a slippery slope to start down. In fact you could just swap out the word AAW and replace that with AOR.
How about changing the configuration of one or two of the new ships and having them lean heavier on the AAW side? Have one for each Coast?

Chukk

[Brian Wentzell]

Chukk: As I understand the surface combatant concept, the first three ships will be air warfare oriented ships. Thus retiring the Tribal Class would be creating a gap in capability rather than a total loss. The replacement of the AOR's could well end up creating a similar gap. Neither of these things are desirable but we are where we are.
Brian

[esl]

City and Tribal class warships were designed during the cold war ,where the primary mission seems to have been forming ASW groups to cover convoys and hunt down Soviet subs. I read an article on how this was done until the late 1960s using CVL , ASW airpower. The escorts were there to keep the CVL free to function.


http://www.aviation.technomuses.ca/a...ftCarriers.PDF


Looking at this I surmised that by the 1970s and 80s the role of long range ASW had shifted out of necessity to Sea King helicopters operating from warship, combined with increasing capable passive sonar [towed array]. The command center became the Tribal class with additional Sea King helicopter and the ‘area air defense’ provided by the “Standard SAM”

But now the cold war is over and any ASW threat has diminished greatly so I wonder if HMCS warships need these Helicopter is as much as before?

Easiest solution would be to keep the tribal class going until replacement arrives. If that proves too costly they could transfer the VLS + missiles + Radar/gear to several suitable modified City class ships, in place of the Helicopter hanger and deck, in the process?

[Brian Wentzell]

Esl: The helicopter is a very important tool for all combatants today for ASW, surface warfare, counter terrorism, littoral, humanitarian and logistics operations. Loss of the capability is significant.

There was a concept to lengthen the Halifax Class by 10 meters to allow for the creation of a air-warfare frigate. It was not proceeded with. The new surface combatant will come in two models-the air warfare version and the general purpose frigate.

Brian