MONTE CASSINO-A Hollow Victory

[jainso31]

Another "bloody"hill,this time in Italy;became one the most fearful conflicts in Europe in WW2.Had Alexander had a tighter grip on General Mark Clark,the outcome of the war in Italy would have been profoundly different-as the text (via the link) will show.It was indeed a Hollow Victory drenched in the blood of gallant British,American,Indian,New Zealand, French and Polish men

jainso31

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/battle_cassino_01.shtml

[Dave Hutson]

Hi Jim.

You get your teeth into another one. My stepdad was at Cassinno, apart from North Africa it was really the only part of his war that he talked about. He drove ammunition trucks. Also my dad's borther-in-law, A Free Pole went through North Africa and was with the Polish Brigade at Cassinno, now he never talked of it but I believe the Polish Brigade accounted for themselves superbly in that operation.

Dave H

[jainso31]

Thank you Dave-nice to see you in print again; for your interest and input.Yes-the Poles were magnificent-extremely brave men, who were truly fighting for their freedom; against a hated enemy.I say this, but must add the same accolade; to all soldiers who fought in this hellish battle.
My one Polish friend ,who was a coalminer at a colliery which I managed in the 70's; died recently aged 90- both he and Polish wife-an ammunition driver also,were at Cassino.They had no children ,so I am the proud owner of their WW2 medals; which (both sets) include the Monte Cassino Cross.We lived in the same suburb of the town.

jainso31

[berry]

Jainso,my Uncle Jack [and my child-hood hero] fought at Cassino.He gave me two German officer's daggers captured during the battle.He was haunted by the experience all his life,;he returned once years later and the memories came flooding back to him.
thanks again,
Sid

[jainso31]

berry thank you for your reply and input-what was your Uncle Jack in ie what unit-I'd be interested to know.
Most of the veterans returned to the place they knew as Hell-to "face their devils" I suppose. So many had such a harrowing experience, they went back for some sort of closure, to a dreadful part of their lives.

jainso31

[berry]

Re my uncle Jack Fisher,all I know is that he was a private soldier in the British fifth army. A great bloke,he had a tattoo of a boxer in classical stance on his arm which to me,as a young bloke,was truly fascinating.
regards
Sid:)

[jainso31]

Berry would it surprise you to know that 5th Army was American, but did have British 1st Division,which spearheaded the Landing at Anzio and later the drive to Rome eg !st Btn Duke of Wellingtons got a fair hammering trying to break out from the Bridgehead.

jainso31

[berry]

Jainso, you're right,got me facts wrong,always in the back of my mind that he was in the fifth army,obviously not; he definately was not an American!
regards
Sid.

[jainso31]

berry- you are not necessarily wrong -British troops did fight with the Americans but at Anzio; the 2nd,3rd and 4th battles of Cassino, were fought by the British 8th Army which included Brits. NZ, Indians,Free French and Poles.Was your uncle infantry or artillery etc.??

jainso31

[berry]

He was PBI, poor b----y infantry.

[jainso31]

They cerainly got the the hardest task of all -taking the Monastery:mad:.

jainso31

[jainso31]

This new link gives more detail of the men who took part in this momemtous
battle- including their Regiments.

jainso31







http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Monte_Cassino

[berry]

Jainso,
The information you have posted regarding Monte Cassino have enabled me to better understand what Jack Fisher and his mates went through.Many thanks,
Sid.

[Sean Roberts]

Jainso.One small question from me as well.Who Ordered the bombing of the Monastary? Fom what I learned during various lectures at Sandhurst,the Germans were not even garrisoning it until after it was bombed.It would have been much easier to take standing.instead of destroying it and making perfect defense positions on the mountain top?

[jainso31]

The bombing of the the monastery was ordered by Lt Gen Mark clark ,GOC 5th Us Army on the direct order of Gen.Sir Harold Alexander C in C Land Forces Italy.
It was generally known that the Germans were not garrisoning the monastery; but I think the Allies were at an impasse; and that this was a move to to break it .All it did was destroy the monastery and the Germans used the resulting rubble as defensive positions and further exacerbated the whole "bloody" business.This decision made by a "weak" C in C, only prolonged the agony and was ultimately seen as a "military blunder".:(

jainso31

[Sean Roberts]

Hi Jainso.Thanks for that reply,just confirms what I had always thought. One big C*** UP from those on high.
Do you think as I do,that without the bombing,it could have been taken with very little loss of life?

[jainso31]

The short answer to that query Sean is No;but the loss of life would certainly have been reduced IMO.The tough German 1st Parachute Division turned the rubble into a fortress and beat off attacks by the 4th Indiann Division who suffered 50% losses; and finally the Poles took the position at a cost of 281 officers and 3503 men-quite a butchers bill; I am sure you will agree.

jainso31

[MaggieRedhead]

Jainso, you're right,got me facts wrong,
always in the back of my mind that he was in the fifth army,obviously not;
he definately was not an American!
regards Sid.

berry, could your uncle perhaps have been in the 5th Division of the British 8th Army?

Quote:
"The 5th Division saw action in the Sicily Landings from 9th to 12 July 1943, and then was part of the
British Eighth Army in Italy. Under XIII Corps, it was in the Messina area in September 1943, involved in the Sangro
battles from 19 Nov. to 3 Dec. 1943, engagements at Garigliano Crossing from 17th to 31 January1944.
After the British 1st Infantry Division and other British forces, as part of the U.S. VI Corps under Major General
John P. Lucas, landed at Anzio in January 1944, the 5th Division was part of later reinforcements sent there,
along with the 56th (London) Infantry Division."

This thread reminded me of a song, a sarcastic reply to Lady Astor who called the troops in Italy "D-Day Dodgers" :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBaAja7VmOo

In 1983 we went to visit friends who were stationed at the NATO Base in Naples, we stayed at their villa in Volturno, from where we visited many historic sites. The one that left the biggest impression on me was Monte Cassino.....what a tragedy! Not only the huge loss of life of many Nationalities, but the destruction of that beautiful ancient Monastery.
It had been sacked many times, the price of being in such a strategic position. The restoration is impressive, especially the magnificent Church and works of art. The most moving sight was the Military Cemeteries, beautifully designed with the trees and plants native to each Country. The British one has of course oak trees and roses.

http://www.roll-of-honour.com/Overseas/montecassino.html

The most visually stunning is the Polish Cemetery, approached along an avenue of poplars, and surrounded by Polish larch trees.



"We Polish soldiers
For our freedom and yours
Have given our souls to God
Our bodies to the soil of Italy and our hearts to Poland"

[jainso31]

Beautiful MaggieR- just beautiful, including the Tribute to the Polish soldiers.
If ever there was a Hell on Earth- it's name was CASSINO.:(:mad:

jainso31

[Old Salt]

The NZ Maori Batallion is always held in honour and esteem in our country, especially for their actions at Monte Cassino.

What a hell on earth it must have been.

Brian

[glojo]

a terrible terrible waste of human life and when we go to war, this is sadly a consequence :o:(

Jainso,
How would you rate this incident compared to the frequent mass slaughter that was regularly ordered by 'idiotic' generals of the First World War? The battles very sadly are far too numerous to mention on your thread.

Jaw, jaw should always beat war, war :(

[jainso31]

This Battle was akin to some WW1 battles,in so far as it was a series of repeated attacks up very steep hills Verdun and the Somme come to mind, which was heavily defended at the summit by a determined enemy.So yes it was once more, Lions led by Donkeys.
On the whole, both 5th (US) and 8th(BRIT) Armies were poorly led during the battle period ie Jan. to June 1944-about the same time span as the Battle of the Somme in 1916.Operations were constantly marred by a lack of stategic vision and slipshod staff work-these two factors combined to produce attacks that were doomed from the start; and with each failure, another slipshod plan ad nauseam.Cassino was another Verdun -a killing ground for the German Paratroopers.
The debacle was finally sealed when the Poles took the Ridge; and Gen. Mark Clark (US) 5th Army turned his back on Cassino and made a Headline Dash for Rome, allowing the German forces to escape and nobody said anything.
Almost 105000 Allied troops were dead or wounded for virtually nothing.
jainso31

[CGRET]

We all have the benefit of hind-sight in the battles from World War 2 and so on.

General Mark Clark was not a well like general. There are those who served with him are trying to paint this general in a different light, meaning he was not a Montgomery or Patton. I have heard from my uncles who served as well in this campaign that he was heard to say he "did not give a dam about the troops just advancing at any cost".

Given the intel on the Monte Cassino then, and the dis-advantages the Nato forces were faced with, the bombing was the alternative to the "high" losses incurred. Along with the 40042 combat Team that were Asian who also lost a large portion of there fighting strength trying to take hill as ordered.

Regards
Charles

[jainso31]

Charles- as I indicated in #15-the bombing of the monastery was a blunder of epic proportions;not only did it it destroy the building WHICH THE GERMANS WERE NOT GARRISONING at the time; but which they did so very effectively, in the resultant rubble.-if anything increasing casualties I am sorry to say. :(:mad:

jainso31

[Hugh Williams]

Berry would it surprise you to know that 5th Army was American, but did have British 1st Division,which spearheaded the Landing at Anzio and later the drive to Rome eg !st Btn Duke of Wellingtons got a fair hammering trying to break out from the Bridgehead.

jainso31

Ah, my grandfather's regiment, Duke of Wellington's (33rd Foot). He was recalled to the colours as a Warrant Officer, went to North Africa and Italy. He had wounds to both his legs which I learnt to dress when I was a youngster. He would never talk of his experiences either. He was always a hero of mine, but I couldn't join his regiment.

[jainso31]

Hugh- re.1st Btn DOW Regt in WW2
BATTLE HONOURS
NW Europe 1940
Dunkirk

Nth Africa 1943
Banana Ridge
Medjez Plain
Gueriat el Atach Ridge
Tunis
Djebel bou Aoukaz

Italy 1943/45
Anzio
Campoleone
Rome
Monte Ceco

Hope this of interest to you-titles in BOLD are honours borne on the Regimental Colours

jainso31

[jainso31]

Battle honours

A number of battle honours were awarded for the Battle of Cassino. The units which participated in the first part of the campaign were awarded the battle honour 'Cassino I'. In addition, subsidiary battle honours were given to those units which participated in specific engagements during the first part. These were Monastery Hill, Castle Hill and Hangman's Hill.
Units which participated in the later part of the battle were awarded the honour 'Cassino II'.
All members of the Polish units received the Monte Cassino Commemorative Cross.

Casualties

The capture of Monte Cassino came at a high price. The Allies suffered around 55,000 casualties in the Monte Cassino campaign. German casualty figures are estimated at around 20,000 killed and wounded Total Allied casualties spanning the period of the four Cassino battles and the Anzio campaign with the subsequent capture of Rome on 5 June 1944, were over 105,000.

jainso31

[derek s.langsdon]

Jim,
I hesitate to comment on your excellent and informative words on the disaster at Cassino.Those with a right to comment, and many have done so, are todays families whose fathers,grandfathers and other relatives lost their lives, were injured are were just present at that badly organised endeavour.

There is no doubt that the bombing of the Monastery was ill conceived
and only prolonged the costly battles fought around it's defended ruins.

The battle awards you listed, of course recognize and remember the
almost impossible achievements of the regiments and men of the varied allied forces involved at Cassino (and other areas) But the real recognition will always remain in the hearts and minds of the families that remain.

My own remembrance will always be of those too many War Cemeteries
covering the hillside on the approaches to Monte Cassino, in other places in Italy, and in Greater Europe.

May they all those brave men Rest in Peace in the hope that such a tragedy will not ever occur again in the future.

derek-L/dsl

[jainso31]

Many thanks Derek for your beautifully phrased tribute to the Fallen of the Battle of Cassino.
You asked me about the Polish casualties,they were as follows:-

Killed= 72 Officers and 788 Other Ranks--------=860
Wounded=384 Officers and 2712 Other Ranks-=3096

jainso31