HMS Queenborough, HMS Venus, HMS Urchin, HMS Wizard

[tim lewin]

The 17th Frigate Squadron in the early 1960s was the Dartmouth Training Squadron and comprised two divisions made up of Type 15 conversions from wartime emergency programme destroyers before being joined by two type 12s, Tenby and Torquay with suitable conversions for training. The type 15s were popular ships but by that time coming to the end of their useful life, built from wartime black steel they tended to rust more readily in their hull plating with all manner of spontaneous leaks keeping the engineering branch on their toes. I recall one tale of my father's time in Urchin when en route to Scandinavia the main condensor inlet pipe burst open with consequent severe wetting of those nearby. My father stopped the ship and swung round, then steamed slowly sternwards towards their destination while a quick-setting concrete patch was applied to the perforation!. The patch was still there when Urchin paid off. This two has in interesting connection. The tale of Urchin's stern.
Actually two tails; involving two ships.
One sunny day in the mid sixties HMS Ulster, a sister to Urchin was doing a three-point turn in the Hamoaze, just completing her sternboard with engines turning slowly the captain ordered stop both. The telegraph refused to budge. Calling down to the engine room where the chief had an acoustic hood to cut out the noise the order was given by phone. The chief being concerned about a steam leak was standing outside his hood but picked up the phone. "Stop both" came the order. "What?". "STOP BOTH". "WHAT?" with that the telegraph came free and clanged from slow to full. "RIGHT-Oh" said the chief and opened the throttles.
The first Lt. then ran full out to the tiller flat realising that ship and shore would soon meet. He got the first startled chap out through the hatch with the second half way out when stern met wall with a tremendous bang and wall of water. The violent compression of the tiller flat blasted the poor AB out of the hatch like a champagne cork and deposited him on the sea wall below Admiralty House. Hearing the noise the staff ran down to see what was going on. Finding a deranged seaman sitting on the path, oceans of water around him and wearing a cap ribbon from HMS Tiger, at that time in Australia, they were somewhat puzzled, by this time Ulster had drifted off and turned round so no damage was visible. Eventually all was made clear, Ulster and Urchin were docked stern to stern and both removed, Urchin's complete last 25 feet complete with rudder, pumps etc. was grafted to Ulster which went on for nearly 15 years more to become the last survivor of the type 15 era....
Does anyone remember any of this?

[Alan B]

Hello Tim
My old mucker Joe Archer was either a P.O. or an E.R.A. on the Ulster, I think at that time, and that was one of his most told stories. Every time he told it he always ended in tears of laughter. Of the stories Joe came out with, most involved the Ulster. He reckoned she had the funny jinx because most of the incidents she was involved in ended with the crew in tears of laughter and the officers either red faced or angry.
Happy days

Many thanks for reminding me of that one.

Alan

[tim lewin]

Thanks Alan, I have plenty of Urchin stories but this is the first time i have come across anyone who was in the Ulster at the time. Any chance you chum has any pictures of the surgery in progress?
All best
tim

[tim lewin]

Some words about the picture of the Gemini on the gun carriage; this was when my father had completed his time as Captain F. He was always an enthusiast for anything new so when the Squadron was issued with Gemini inflatables, quite the latest gadget then, he was delighted. Instead of using the seaboat or cutter to visit other ships or go ashore he used the Gemini. Powered by a 40HP Johnson this was an exciting device. The chaps decided that if their skipper was going to zip about in a blow-up boat he should at least do so with dignity. They made him up a chrome plated cut-down canvas chair and bolted it to the bottom boards for him to sit in and then made up a Captain F17 pennant so that on inter-ship visits an A/B could lie in the pointy end clutching the pennant aloft in the spray while their skipper sat clutching the sides of his chair. The Gemini had only two speeds, full out or stopped. His other great enthusiasm was the correct catenary of the boat-rope. When he left the officers of the Squadron presented him with a desk set bearing a plate inscribed;-

"The extra flexible non tacomic terrylene gemini boat rope boy" 7-8-63."

He experinented with the new terrylene ropes then coming out and found that a terrylene boat rope was so much more flexible than hemp it would act like a rubber band in springing the seaboat away from the ship's side. The non tacomic refers to the Tacoma Narrows bridge that failed so spectacularly by being too flexible. The officers of HMS Wizard actually presented him with a section of their boat rope on a wooden shield with the ships crest, its on the wall above my desk as i write, if my digital camera want not u/s I would attach a picture, maybe later.
The assembled officers hauled him through the Dockyard, Devonport, in his gemini on a gun carriage to the main gate where they had positioned the family Cortina!
Anyone remeber this event?

[Pash]

I was on the last few months of HMS Virago and actually helped to prepare her for reserve in 1963.

I was an M(E)2 at the time and passed for M(E)1 on her. This was the reason I joined her in the first place plus the Commander of HMS Sultan didn't like me much, as I was his runner and always loafing.

The Virago visited Liverpool, the IOM and Waterford in Ireland. Some great runs ashore.

She was the second Type 15 I served on. The First was HMS Undaunted from 1962 to 1963 my first ship as a JM(E) fresh from Ganges via Raleigh. Then in 1969 I joined HMS Grenville as a Mech 3 after Mechanician Training at Sultan I left two years later as a Mech 1.
So I was a bit of a type 15 specialist. !!

[tim lewin]

All these names are emergency class destroyers of the last war that were converted, with much use of aluminium, into fast a/s frigates to counter the greatly enhanced underwater speed of post war subs, no doubt based on the type twenty-something U-boats taken as reparations. I would very much like to hear from former members of ships' companies on how they regarded the type 15's post conversion in comparison with their traditionally more handsome former guises. I know that many loved the inside main corridor from forward to aft, the Burma Road, compared with a sprint down the heaving iron deck. What else did you all like or hate about the type 15s?
Thanks
tim

[Harley]

Funny, I was reading the "Warship" article about the "Queenborough" conversions just the other day.

You ask me, they looked better! I just cannot hack any ship with an open bridge. They look ugly and would have been hell to stand watch on during rough weather.

Harley

[jbryce1437]

I served on another of the class - Undaunted - and I can honestly say that conditions were better than on the old aircraft carrier Ark Royal.
On the Ark, I started off in a hammock, then I slept on a camp bed, either in a main passageway on 3 deck, on the focsle in the Far East, on the mess deck with about 20 hammocks swinging overhead - usually getting trod on when someone wanted the heads during the night, or on a camp bed behind the main broadcast amplifiers - which was nice and warm in the UK winter.
The Press came aboard for a NATO exercise but, because of heavy weather, there was no Flying Stations and they had little to report. Consequently, they spent much of the time below decks, observing Jack and his conditions and they labelled her a "Slum Ship". This rattled a few cages and we were awarded Hard Lying money - most of it was invested in the Tiger Brewery in Singapore.
On the Undaunted, as a killick, I had a bunk, as did most in the Mess. As Capt D of the Portland Squadron, we went to war every Thursday and usually had every weekend alongside.
Great ship, great days.

[qprdave]

I agree with Jim Bryce. I was on the Undaunted (Unwanted to her friends). Great ship. I was in the Juniors mess. No Juniors routine as we were required to do night watches. Four bunks in our mess. Killick of the mess had one, the other three were given to the longest serving Juniors. I had the good fortune of sleeping in a bunk for three nights before moving on to Vernon. In 1967/68 they did take off the 4.5 inch guns and put a hut in its place to accommodate the TAS(UCs) on board for sea training. We did use it occasionally. I must admit that Hammocks were quite comfortable at sea. Not to good when coming off shore after a good run. Being my first ship, I cannot compare with previous ships but far superior to the Russell (Type 14) which I later served on. It used to roll in dry dock!!!!

Good ship and good ships company

[tim lewin]

I remember the winter of 1960/61 when the entire country was under feet of snow. We lived in Devon as my father was then captain F of the Dartmouth Squadron (F17) based at Plymouth. Came the day when the Sqn was due to sail to the West Indies for their spring training cruise and I was due next day to return to school in Kent (I was 14+ at the time). Urchin was due to set the gyro in Whitesand Bay on the radio beacon there so my father asked if i would like to spend the day on board. Off we went, anchored and swung successfully, compass adjusted we set off back through the breakwater. I need to add that it was still only about 2 degs C and blowing force 10 from the NE. The guardship was Leopard who was inside the breakwater with both anchors down fore and aft. We had heard a signal reporting a tanker that had lost its rudder off Cherbourg, then we got a signal to say that as we were out and leopard was in we might as well respond. Just the sort of misssion that might appeal to Capt. Lewin. Round we came, revolutions for twenty-five knots, wind dead astern, Cherbourg bound. Urchin had both an inside bridge and outside one. For this occaision we were below. I remember going down to the quarterdeck and being deeply impressed by the huge waves astern looming over our equally impressive wake. We got to within some 17 miles of the stricken ship to be told that she was now under tow by a French tug and we could go home. This was easier said than done. Out in the open channel the wind was heaping the seas up well over twenty-five feet and blowing even harder. We came round rolling 30 degrees plus one way and twenty back the other, type 15s did tend to catch the wind. Once round and squarely head to wind we had dropped the speed to about 8 knots but the seas were still mountainous. We hit the first wave at focsle level, the second at bridge level and the third came green over the top of the bridge! I was standing at the back watching this, clinging to the pelorus. The third wave blacked out all of the light from the bridge windows as we crashed into it. Suddenly two of them burst in and the next second I was completely under water. As her head came back up all of the water ran back into the comms room blanking out all of the radio, a 15 stone watchkeeper slid down the still rolling deck wiping me off my perch. The only one who seemed not to be wet to the neck was my father who was standing on his platform at the front of the bridge. It then took us 48 hours to get back to Plymouth into the teeth of the gale, deadlights down. The Focsle was wiped clean of anything moveable, bridge ladder, jack-staff, everything. Whats more no one knew where we were, nor could we tell them. (My school suit wasnt up to much either) When we arrived back at Plymouth Leopard was still there and flashed off some amusing signal, dont remember what but my father flashed back instantly the traditional bible ref. Which on looking up read something like "Yea, Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these" (Urchin). Great memories.
tim

[tomsam]

As you can see from my avatar Type 15's are to me the bees knees. The Relentless was my only draft on these A/S ships and I will never forget them. Much has been said on thier characteristics but they were also very experimental and carried many of thier design points into later classes.
I therefore will make mention of some of these.
QUADRANT, QUEENBOROUGH, QUIBERON and QUICKMATCH.made up the !st Frigate squadron in Australia. Thier conversions were done in Australia and incorporated a bridge design that was unique to the Australian Type15's with the exeption of Ulster ,Zest and Troubridge. This design was to be used later in classes such as Blackwood,Leopard,Rothsea,and Salisbury. In Fact in appearance apart fom the raised bow, a Salisbury class is no very different in appearance from the Australian Q's.
The main enclosed bridge was used in the main but because these classes retained a GDP ( Gunnery Direction Platform ) it could be used as hot weather mini bridge. (Similar to the fly bridge on modern cabin cruisers)
The new superstructure layout allowed the crew to fight the ship without having to expose themselves to the elements, and was increasingly important in the age of nuclear weapons.
A completely new suite of armaments and electronics was added, befitting their role as fast anti-submarine frigates. The armament was centred around a pair of Mark 10 Limbo A/S mortars. These three-barrelled weapons were based on the wartime Squid,and were mounted on the quarterdeck aft, where they were best protected from the weather. They had a 360° field of fire and were automatic in operation.These were fitted to all except Rapid , Roebuck and all V/W ships.The latter were fitted with Squids due to insufficient funds. My job as a UW rating was on the MCS ( Mounting Control Switch )
Undaunted was the first frigate to carry and operate an Helicopter having been fitted with an aft flight deck.
I hope this thread continues as we don't hear enough about these ships.
Tomsam

[Batstiger]

I never had the pleasure of serving on the Type 15's, only when doing sea training down at Osprey on UC courses.
However I did serve on a Type 16 (the poor mans version) HMS Termagant, my first proper ship after the Largo Bay. She was fitted with the 168/9 Asdics as opposed to the 170 sets on the Type 15's.
You will note I say ASDIC, this was what they were called before we started using American terms.
I can always remember when she first fired her Squids which were mounted down aft, an amazing sight watching the bombs hurtle over the mast! Slightly different to the Battleaxe (Weapon class) which had them mounted forward.

[tim lewin]

Here is an article on the T15s and some pics from my collection; I did post a story about Urchin and Ulster early on in this forum, will try to move it here.
tim

My earlier posts were on the 13-09-07 concerning the 17th FS, with some good T15 stories if anyone would like to merger them to this string it might help. thanks
tim

[tomsam]

Hi all.
Does anyone have or know where I can obtain any deck plans or internal photo's of Type 15's Especially Relentless.
Also has anyone any Idea why Rocket had the rubbing strake and not others.
Tomsam

[Batstiger]

Tim, this is the first time I have used the Moderators perks to merge a thread.
It appears to have worked okay, hope it suits you.

Bob.

[tim lewin]

Well done Bob; I had a fiddle with it but it began to eat up working time and I had to leave it. Great stuff.

Rocket; I remember a run off for fastest ship in the fleet some years ago between a T15 and Cavalier which Cavalier won by a nose, I have a feeling this may have been rocket, or was it Rapid? someone will remember. I think you might get plans of Rocket from the NMM, it would be a good place to start followed by the RN Museum at portsmouth.

During my father's commission in Urchin they made a visit to Norway. Half way there came an urgent call from below that the main seawater intake pipe to the condensor had burst through, rust having got the better of it. This presented a dilema. It would not be good to be towed stern-first into Gotenborg on a flag showing visit. Norwegian repairs might also be a bit pricey. Exercising all those years of training in "what to do when things go wrong" dad turned the ship and steamed gently backwards for an hour to take the pressure out of the pipe while the blackhand gang applied a concrete patch. They did such a good job it was still there at the end of her career!

[tim lewin]

for those interested the Norway pictures are in a side inlet to Sogne Fiord, it narrows to 3 cables with mountains on either side over 100o metres high. this was a training exercise in ship handling and nav...

[Batstiger]

It was the Rapid Tim see link:-

http://www.chdt.org.uk/HMS_Cavalier/Final_Duties/hms_cavalier_final_duties.html

Regards, Bob.

[tim lewin]

Thanks for this Bob, stirring stuff from a lost age; I had some experience of speed from the boiler-room perspective in Urchin which I must confess to a 14 year old was pretty scary stuff. I remwember my father telling me about a time when there was an occaision in 1961 or 2 the 17th FS was in the West Indies on a training cruise when they had an urgent signal from Whitehall saying that Lord Avon, Anthony Eden, had suffered a heart attack at his home there and needed medical attention not available locally. Urchin had a doctor so they set off through the night at 28-30 knots arriving at dawn with all of the paint burned off the funnel. Lord A was by then much recovered and welcomed them all to breakfast!

Are there any more steam-driven ships left in active service in the RN? I think not....very soon the operation of high power marine steam turbines will be as arcane as working a sailing ship.
tim

[ceylon220]

Some of you will no doubt remember your time during the 60s when you were drafted to Dartmouth to serve aboard the D T S, my mate from those days served aboard the URCHIN type 15 frigate and gave me this pic of the other ships in the squadron which were used to train officers.The ships are
HMS URCHIN leading with WIZARD, TENBY,& VIGILANT.

[tim lewin]

then no doubt he will remember good old dad, or "GOD" for short; I still have a set of beer mugs from the last sqn regatta at Morgat before Urchin paid off to be replaced by Tenby. Tenby's deckplate is at my front door. I would be very pleased to add your chum's memories to my collection if he would care to contrivute them, I am preparing a web site to bring together all of my photos and accumulated tales before it all gets lost.
Thanks for whatever you can send.
All best, tim

[Scratcher]

Does anyone have a decent picture of Urchin please.Oldships, and I cannot find a decent one on the Web.During my time onboard 1960,she was part of the Dartmouth Training Squadron.

[jackdusty1]

Hope this Photo is OK.....Jack Dusty1

[Macadian]

Does anyone have a decent picture of Urchin please.Oldships, and I cannot find a decent one on the Web.During my time onboard 1960,she was part of the Dartmouth Training Squadron.

No pics I am afraid but did my 'sea training' as a very junior Stoker aboard her from HMS Raliegh in early 1964.....never thinking that in 1970 I would be drafted aboard the 'Undaunted', another Type 15, as a hairy arsed Killick stoker.....:cool:...and she turned out to be the best, if not one of the oldest, warships I had the privilege of serving on....:) Picked up my 2nd hook aboard her and learned so much in that time....

[tim lewin]

I have lots of pics, mostly posted earlier in the forum but happy to post again; you would have been there when my late father was Captain F? do you remember the great storm of 1961? when we rushed across the channel to rescue a French tanker only to be sent back when a fewc miles away, and straight into the teeth of the Nort-Easter that broke the bridge windows? I have Urchin's bell a few feet from where I am writing, and the gangway life-buoy. I used to go to sea with Urchin in the summer hols before she was replaced by Tenby. Somewhere in this forum is the tale of Urchin's stern, organ donation to Ulster.
Welcome to the forum, pics to follow.
tim lewin

[Scratcher]

Thank you to all,and for the picture jackdusty1.Happy days,still talk to several of the old crew of that era.

Peter.

[tim lewin]

take a look at the posts on "old ships" and you'll find a few of Urchin.
tim

[INVINCIBLE]

I remember the winter of 1960/61 when the entire country was under feet of snow. We lived in Devon as my father was then captain F of the Dartmouth Squadron (F17) based at Plymouth. Came the day when the Sqn was due to sail to the West Indies for their spring training cruise and I was due next day to return to school in Kent (I was 14+ at the time). Urchin was due to set the gyro in Whitesand Bay on the radio beacon there so my father asked if i would like to spend the day on board. Off we went, anchored and swung successfully, compass adjusted we set off back through the breakwater. I need to add that it was still only about 2 degs C and blowing force 10 from the NE. The guardship was Leopard who was inside the breakwater with both anchors down fore and aft. We had heard a signal reporting a tanker that had lost its rudder off Cherbourg, then we got a signal to say that as we were out and leopard was in we might as well respond. Just the sort of misssion that might appeal to Capt. Lewin. Round we came, revolutions for twenty-five knots, wind dead astern, Cherbourg bound. Urchin had both an inside bridge and outside one. For this occaision we were below. I remember going down to the quarterdeck and being deeply impressed by the huge waves astern looming over our equally impressive wake. We got to within some 17 miles of the stricken ship to be told that she was now under tow by a French tug and we could go home. This was easier said than done. Out in the open channel the wind was heaping the seas up well over twenty-five feet and blowing even harder. We came round rolling 30 degrees plus one way and twenty back the other, type 15s did tend to catch the wind. Once round and squarely head to wind we had dropped the speed to about 8 knots but the seas were still mountainous. We hit the first wave at focsle level, the second at bridge level and the third came green over the top of the bridge! I was standing at the back watching this, clinging to the pelorus. The third wave blacked out all of the light from the bridge windows as we crashed into it. Suddenly two of them burst in and the next second I was completely under water. As her head came back up all of the water ran back into the comms room blanking out all of the radio, a 15 stone watchkeeper slid down the still rolling deck wiping me off my perch. The only one who seemed not to be wet to the neck was my father who was standing on his platform at the front of the bridge. It then took us 48 hours to get back to Plymouth into the teeth of the gale, deadlights down. The Focsle was wiped clean of anything moveable, bridge ladder, jack-staff, everything. Whats more no one knew where we were, nor could we tell them. (My school suit wasnt up to much either) When we arrived back at Plymouth Leopard was still there and flashed off some amusing signal, dont remember what but my father flashed back instantly the traditional bible ref. Which on looking up read something like "Yea, Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these" (Urchin). Great memories.
tim

I was looking for the recent thread on "Goffers" to post the "wave" pic below but cannot seem to find it anywhere. Instead the search facility produced this most interesting thread with the story of URCHIN's trip in a storm to Ushant. Having been onboard at the time (though I believe it was actually 18-19 Jan 1963) I was very interested to read it and looked it up in my journal where I saw a brief sketch, picture and the unmistakable signature, which Tim, and probly many others would recognise.

[tim lewin]

How about that then! what a splendid thread this has become. What a find and thanks very much.
tim

[Polycell]

I was on the last few months of HMS Virago and actually helped to prepare her for reserve in 1963.

I was an M(E)2 at the time and passed for M(E)1 on her. This was the reason I joined her in the first place plus the Commander of HMS Sultan didn't like me much, as I was his runner and always loafing.

The Virago visited Liverpool, the IOM and Waterford in Ireland. Some great runs ashore.

She was the second Type 15 I served on. The First was HMS Undaunted from 1962 to 1963 my first ship as a JM(E) fresh from Ganges via Raleigh. Then in 1969 I joined HMS Grenville as a Mech 3 after Mechanician Training at Sultan I left two years later as a Mech 1.
So I was a bit of a type 15 specialist. !!
Pash I was on Virago. We commishioned her in 61? then I remained on board till September 62 when I went back to Collingrad.
We as Greenies had the mess opposite side to the stokers mess so I probably met up with you if you were onboard in 62. The only stokers I remember were Scouse Plunkett, Fritz Schultz and a bloke called ???(Spike) Hughes ring any bells?
Fred
Fred

[alanandbren]

Pash I was on Virago. We commishioned her in 61? then I remained on board till September 62 when I went back to Collingrad.
We as Greenies had the mess opposite side to the stokers mess so I probably met up with you if you were onboard in 62. The only stokers I remember were Scouse Plunkett, Fritz Schultz and a bloke called ???(Spike) Hughes ring any bells?
Fred
Fred

we had a boy in our mess at Ganges in 57 named Plunkett, wonder if it's the same guy, unusual name so easy to remember him.

[Polycell]

This Scouse Plunkett must have been in his late 20s could have been older. He was certainly a badgeman
Fred

[Destroyerman]

Dear Tim,

being relatively new to this forum, I was 'catching up' with the plethora of subjects when I came across this thread.

I served aboard two WWII destroyer conversions, HMS TEAZER (Capt F2 1958-59) and HMS UNDAUNTED (Capt F2 1962-64). I also had the priveledge of serving aboard a 'non' conversion, HMS CAVALIER for the final two commissions. I thoroughly enjoyed my time on all three of these excellent ships, CAVALIER being my best sea going draft ever.

What prompts me to write however, is the story of HMS ULSTER, related in the first post on this thread, and her incident with the wall nearly 45 years ago. I witnessed the collision from the safety of dry land. Let me set the scene. In 1966 I was drafted to HMS BULWARK which was undergoing refit at Devonport. We were living aboard our accommodation ship HMS BELFAST at the time. At the time of the incident I was walking along the quay for one of three reasons: 1. Returning from "7 beller leave" late forenoon on the day, we were donkey (auxiliary) boiler watchkeepers supplying steam to BELFAST at the time, 2. Returning from RN Hospital Stonehouse after having had my tonsils removed, or 3. Returning from sick leave following the operation. Either way, I can recall strolling along the jetty and being aware of a Type 15 frigate manoeuvring to my left. I could see that she was coming astern in a wide clockwise arc towards the jetty and noticed from the deep rumbling at the stern she was coming in at full astern. In the absence of any quartedeck party, or dockyard mateys on the quayside, she wasn't obviously coming alongside. My gaze was then attracted to the Tiller Flat Special Sea Dutyman (TFSSD) who was propped in the tiller flat round portion of the dual shaped hatch. He was standing near the top of the internal tiller flat ladder emulating a WWII tank commander and was seemingly blissfully unaware of the impending disaster. (Nobody was therefore being pulled out of the tiller flat by the 1st Lieutenant as per the report, as this guy was obstructing the hatch and had been there for some time). When ULSTER hit the jetty, there was no 'wall of water' (as had been reported) because by virtue of the fact that ULSTER was going full astern, most of the intervening water was being pushed ahead by the propellers. Once the collision had started to concertina the tiller flat compartment, the resultant air pressure build-up had blown the unfortunate TFSSD out of the hatch like a cork and he landed in a big sprawling heap on the jetty. It was at this point that I recognised him as a former messmate on HMS UNDAUNTED! If I remember correctly, he was a Scottish M(E)1 called MacCreadie (or similar). People had started to gather round and I left the scene, not wanting to be 'adrift' from my return to HMS BELFAST. But I can certainly remember wondering if MacCreadie would eventually be charged with improperly leaving his place of duty and his ship!
I assume that there was a Board of Enquiry, but I was never called, because i didn't want to be charged as a result for being 'adrift' from where I had to be at the time.:rolleyes:
Subsequently, every time I had reason to go down the same hatch on CAVALIER, I would pause whilst in the round section of the hatch and wonder what really did happen to the Scottish stoker in the end.:)

[stontamar]

I was very interested to read it and looked it up in my journal where I saw a brief sketch, picture and the unmistakable signature, which Tim, and probly many others would recognise.

Reference Post 28 3rd picture. This shows presumably HMS URCHIN wearing the White Ensign on the ensign staff but one would have thought that, in accordance with the Queens Regulations and Admiralty Instructions, due to the bad weather the White Ensign would have been worn on a gaff on the main mast.

Was it worn on the ensign staff on this occasion purely for the photograph. Any thoughts?

Regards

stontamar

[tim lewin]

incredible how small our world is, and the first time i have heard the stoery from someone who was there, even a secret witness! Well done and very many thanks for that.
Speaking of tiller flats, did you read my story of the mystery ailment that befell the steering onboard Corunna on her way up the river to Belfast on my fathers first commission as captain?

[Destroyerman]

.......Speaking of tiller flats, did you read my story of the mystery ailment that befell the steering onboard Corunna on her way up the river to Belfast on my fathers first commission as captain?

Not yet Tim, but I am sure that I will navigate my way to it in due course.;)

But I can relate the story of steering difficulties on board HMS HERMES in 1959-60.

[tim lewin]

would love to hear it, even tho my specific interest in Hermes is 66-67 she remains a very happy memory in family history.

you will enjoy the Corunna story, if you can't find it i am happy to tell it again (Corunna's wheel lives on in HMS Belfast these days)
tim

[Destroyerman]

Tim,

if I were to relate the story of HERMES' steering gear problems, it would have to be in the correct thread. I will notify you of when and where.;)

[INVINCIBLE]

Reference Post 28 3rd picture. This shows presumably HMS URCHIN wearing the White Ensign on the ensign staff but one would have thought that, in accordance with the Queens Regulations and Admiralty Instructions, due to the bad weather the White Ensign would have been worn on a gaff on the main mast.

Was it worn on the ensign staff on this occasion purely for the photograph. Any thoughts?

Regards

stontamar

Stontamar,

Good question - very perceptive. You will see from my sketch in the middle picture that URCHIN was not wearing the ensign on the ensign staff - I sketched it, with great difficulty, at the time and know it was not there. I did not however take the photograph and so cannot really answer the question. Tim was onboard at the time but I don't expect he will remember such a detail.

[Alan Markland]

Ref. previous. I joined Ulster just after the collision, also drafted to Bulwark (Belfast.) Ulster's stern, including all steering machinery, had by then been grafted onto her from her donor, HMS Urchin, (where I had also recently served!)
It was recognised as a remarkable engineering triumph by Guzz Dockyard at the time, even though Ulster's officers of the watch would complain of a certain reluctance to exacly obey telegraphed commands. Ulster's Engineer's Writer at the time of the cruch told me that the first thing the engineer asked for was the Planned Maintenence Schedule!
I was a POME on joining Bulwark, made up to Acting Local Chief on account of my Unit Watchkeeping Ticket, (One of the first under a new scheme to replace Tiffies.) I did my watchkeeping in B Engine Room and for day work Engineer's Writer. Alan.

[ekd]

I can't remember much of this; far back in ( mid 1961), too well.

But here are two photos of some young sailors on the quaterdeck of what I think is H.M.S. Venus, at Guzz. It was used for sea training from H.M.S. Raleigh.

#1 Me, Willie Sharp and Laurie Birkinshaw.

#2 Me, (With officer's cap, for a laugh) and Jock ?, sorry but just can't remember his name.

[Allan SINCLAIR]

Pash I was on Virago. We commishioned her in 61? then I remained on board till September 62 when I went back to Collingrad.
We as Greenies had the mess opposite side to the stokers mess so I probably met up with you if you were onboard in 62. The only stokers I remember were Scouse Plunkett, Fritz Schultz and a bloke called ???(Spike) Hughes ring any bells?
Fred
Fred

Hello Fred. Forgive me but I do not remember you although we shared the same mess on Virago which I also joined in November '61. I went to Collingwood in Jan '63 for LEMQ. My 'run ashore oppo' was Chas Charters. The Ch. El. was 'Spider' Kelly and the EA1 was Frank bartlett. I remember Fritz as well. One night he got 'filled in' by his Burberry when he came off shore (Keppel's Head!) and the coat fell onto him off the hammock bar. He wrestled it for some minutes before realising it was not a human! I think Virago was the happiest ship I served on.

[Polycell]

Hello Fred. Forgive me but I do not remember you although we shared the same mess on Virago which I also joined in November '61. I went to Collingwood in Jan '63 for LEMQ. My 'run ashore oppo' was Chas Charters. The Ch. El. was 'Spider' Kelly and the EA1 was Frank bartlett. I remember Fritz as well. One night he got 'filled in' by his Burberry when he came off shore (Keppel's Head!) and the coat fell onto him off the hammock bar. He wrestled it for some minutes before realising it was not a human! I think Virago was the happiest ship I served on.
Allan I rember you very well in fact I have several photos of certain members of ours and the stokers mess.
In our mess was Jim Crabtree LEM, Jock Pattinson LEM, Terry Bogg LEM John Ayling REM, Chas Charters EM, Jock McIntyre (Black Mac) EM, Jackie Law JEM, Jim Lambert EM, Geordie McCurk REM, Jock Ritchie EM I think, Bob Field REM, Matt Read ( my mate! he hated me but for some strange reason we were run ashore buddies) EM, Squirrel Sinclair (you!!!) and squeaky voiced me Fred West JEM. Was Ken Warbuton in our mess he was a badgeman or am I mixing him up with Chaplet?
I worked with Ray Mumford the Gyro EA and Low power.
I remember one job I had was to change the anemometer up the mast and me scared of heights. I was to climb into a cradle and be taken up to the yard arm in the cradle slung from the jib of a crane. I was petrified but managed to change the anemometer and the best bit was when it worked!!
I hated Virago I guess it was because I was the youngest in mess and always having the rise taken out of me. The thing was Virago was my second ship as I had come straight from Chaplet along with a couple of the other greenies so I should have known what I was letting myself in for.
I'll post the photos I have of our mess mates!!
I was in contact with Dave (Jackie) Law some years ago.
Fred

[Marek T]

On 9-13 November 1959 ROEBUCK, VENUS and VIGILANT visited Gdynia. Here are three shots from that time.

[keblin]

On 9-13 November 1959 ROEBUCK, VENUS and VIGILANT visited Gdynia. Here are three shots from that time.

Great pictures, MarekT. Thank you for posting them.

I spent time on Vigilant, sea training in 1960; and six months training on Roebuck in 1961. Great ships.

[Polycell]

Great pictures, MarekT. Thank you for posting them.

I spent time on Vigilant, sea training in 1960; and six months training on Roebuck in 1961. Great ships.
Great ships I guess if you were on 'em training.
Not a lot of laughs for the ships company.
Spending days charging around the Western approaches either line astern or line abreast. Doing OOW manouveres all day all night whilst the trainee stokers on Virago spent their time hanging over the back end throwing up.
Hated it on Virago as soon as we hit the wall somewhere other than Guzz it was clear lower deck of Electrical department to floodlight ship grr.
Then you'd spend your along side time replacing 500 watt lamps in the floodlights because a stupid moth had flown into the lamp causing it to explode.
Fun? I think not. Its more fun on a diesel boat snorting in a force nine!!!

[Allan SINCLAIR]

Allan I rember you very well in fact I have several photos of certain members of ours and the stokers mess.
In our mess was Jim Crabtree LEM, Jock Pattinson LEM, Terry Bogg LEM John Ayling REM, Chas Charters EM, Jock McIntyre (Black Mac) EM, Jackie Law JEM, Jim Lambert EM, Geordie McCurk REM, Jock Ritchie EM I think, Bob Field REM, Matt Read ( my mate! he hated me but for some strange reason we were run ashore buddies) EM, Squirrel Sinclair (you!!!) and squeaky voiced me Fred West JEM. Was Ken Warbuton in our mess he was a badgeman or am I mixing him up with Chaplet?
I worked with Ray Mumford the Gyro EA and Low power.
I remember one job I had was to change the anemometer up the mast and me scared of heights. I was to climb into a cradle and be taken up to the yard arm in the cradle slung from the jib of a crane. I was petrified but managed to change the anemometer and the best bit was when it worked!!
I hated Virago I guess it was because I was the youngest in mess and always having the rise taken out of me. The thing was Virago was my second ship as I had come straight from Chaplet along with a couple of the other greenies so I should have known what I was letting myself in for.
I'll post the photos I have of our mess mates!!
I was in contact with Dave (Jackie) Law some years ago.
Fred

Bonjour Fred, I remembered you as soon as I saw your surname. Must've been having a senior moment!I remember all the others and if Ken Warburton wore specs. yes, he was in our mess. I came from Reserve Fleet Portsmouth where, yes, my nickname was 'Squirrel', something to do with hoarding my nuts? My draft chit was to Chaplet, it was only when I arrived that I found out we were all going to Virago. The skipper was Commander Michael Magnus-Osborne; the Jimmy was Lt Cdr Nick Hunt who became an Admiral. do you remember when I got run over by a Shore Patrol wagon on S. Mole Gib. on the 31st May '62? I see you live in France-so do I! I would love some pix. of the mess. One day in heavy weather in Biscay the gland for the forrd steaming light came adrift and water was pouring into the paint locker and the ship's bows slowly going down and Jock Pattinson and myself had to go out onto the focsle to repair it. The 'owner' wouldn't slow down for this and kept up to about 20 knots. Jock and I put oilys on and lifelines and went down the ladders from the top of the bridge up to the gland. Despite numerous gophers we managed to get the gland repacked in about 1/2 hour and came back into the dry. The 'owner' ordered a tot each and we had 'neaters'.

[Polycell]

Sorry if this sounds like an extract from 'This is your Life' but ......
Yes I remember Allan your incident with the Shore patrol Landrover, how do I remember it? Cos I was part of the shore patrol and just got picked up from the ship by the Reggies me and a killick something and a couple of others.
I can tell you now why you got run down, cos the two Reggies in the front of the Landrover were mucking about one was steering (the passeneger) whilst the driver was changing gears etc and.......you were the result of this 'skylarking'. I did laugh!! No lasting effects I guess.
Oh by the way one mess member I forgot Jan Morey. Yes Ken Warbuton wore classes.
Fred

[tim lewin]

may i propose that one of the mods more adept at IT than me merge this thread with the Type 15 one?
In my offics cupboard i have a set of ceramic tankards from the Sqn regatta at Morgat for the 17th FS. I will dig one out and photograph it for you all.
tim

[ted short]

The 17th Frigate Squadron in the early 1960s was the Dartmouth Training Squadron and comprised two divisions made up of Type 15 conversions from wartime emergency programme destroyers before being joined by two type 12s, Tenby and Torquay with suitable conversions for training. The type 15s were popular ships but by that time coming to the end of their useful life, built from wartime black steel they tended to rust more readily in their hull plating with all manner of spontaneous leaks keeping the engineering branch on their toes. I recall one tale of my father's time in Urchin when en route to Scandinavia the main condensor inlet pipe burst open with consequent severe wetting of those nearby. My father stopped the ship and swung round, then steamed slowly sternwards towards their destination while a quick-setting concrete patch was applied to the perforation!. The patch was still there when Urchin paid off. This two has in interesting connection. The tale of Urchin's stern.
Actually two tails; involving two ships.
One sunny day in the mid sixties HMS Ulster, a sister to Urchin was doing a three-point turn in the Hamoaze, just completing her sternboard with engines turning slowly the captain ordered stop both. The telegraph refused to budge. Calling down to the engine room where the chief had an acoustic hood to cut out the noise the order was given by phone. The chief being concerned about a steam leak was standing outside his hood but picked up the phone. "Stop both" came the order. "What?". "STOP BOTH". "WHAT?" with that the telegraph came free and clanged from slow to full. "RIGHT-Oh" said the chief and opened the throttles.
The first Lt. then ran full out to the tiller flat realising that ship and shore would soon meet. He got the first startled chap out through the hatch with the second half way out when stern met wall with a tremendous bang and wall of water. The violent compression of the tiller flat blasted the poor AB out of the hatch like a champagne cork and deposited him on the sea wall below Admiralty House. Hearing the noise the staff ran down to see what was going on. Finding a deranged seaman sitting on the path, oceans of water around him and wearing a cap ribbon from HMS Tiger, at that time in Australia, they were somewhat puzzled, by this time Ulster had drifted off and turned round so no damage was visible. Eventually all was made clear, Ulster and Urchin were docked stern to stern and both removed, Urchin's complete last 25 feet complete with rudder, pumps etc. was grafted to Ulster which went on for nearly 15 years more to become the last survivor of the type 15 era....
Does anyone remember any of this?

nice pictures of these type 15,s Tim
Ted

On 9-13 November 1959 ROEBUCK, VENUS and VIGILANT visited Gdynia. Here are three shots from that time.

very nice pictures of these warships
Ted

[tim lewin]

Roebuck, also known as Rustbucket, had the misfortune to be launched prematurely from Scotts on the Clyde by a German bomb and spend 6 months on the bottom before recovery and completion, something she never really fully recovered from. Richard Hill, later Adm, was in her during the time my father was Capt. F17 and she was part of the Dartmouth T/S. He told of a time the sqn was heading off for their spring cruise to the Caribbean when in mid-Atlantic, Roebuck conked out with a total steam failure, sdtopped and dark. Urchin stopped alongside and discussed with Lt-Cdr Simon Cassels the problems, when all was understood, Urchin signalled see you in Barbados and shoved off over the horizon at 18 kts. Once out of sight they dropped speed to less than 10 for a couple of hours before Roebuck could be seen stomping along to catch up and was back on station shortly after having larned a small lesson in independence at sea.
The buzz word, expression, at the time was G4T, good for training, and almost everything was, including feeling alone in the midsdt of the wide ocean.
tim