HMAS Largs Bay

[Jackaroo]

Largs Bay acquisition

Minister for Defence Stephen Smith and Minister for Defence Materiel Jason Clare today announced that Australia has been successful in its bid to acquire the United Kingdom’s Bay Class amphibious ship Largs Bay.

The Government has previously announced that it had asked Defence to develop new and comprehensive options to ensure transition to Australia’s Canberra Class amphibious Landing Helicopter Dock ships, which become operational from 2014, including the lease or purchase of a Bay Class Ship from the UK Government.

Today, the Government is confirming that Australia has been successful in its bid to acquire a Bay Class ship, Largs Bay.

Largs Bay is a Landing Ship Dock (LSD) which was commissioned into service in 2006. It became surplus to United Kingdom (UK) requirements as a result of the UK Government’s 2010 Defence Strategic Review.

The ship weighs 16,000 tonnes. It is 176 metres long and 26 metres wide. Its flight deck has room for two large helicopters and can also carry around 150 light trucks and 350 troops.

Its cargo capacity is the equivalent of the Royal Australian Navy’s entire amphibious fleet.

Largs Bay is a proven capability having provided humanitarian relief as part of the international response to the Haiti earthquake in 2010.

Largs Bay will help ensure that the Royal Australian Navy has the amphibious capability it needs for operation and humanitarian support in our region in the period leading up to the arrival of the Landing Helicopter Dock Ships.

The ship has been acquired for £65 million (approximately $100 million).

Teekay Shipping Australia has thoroughly inspected the ship and found that: “The ship presents very well, and from a technical point of view, there are no major defects.”

Before the acquisition is finalised, Defence and the Royal Australian Navy will conduct sea trials to confirm the material state of the ship.

The ship is expected to arrive by the end of the year in time for it to be operational in early 2012.

The Government will announce further details of the transition plan for Australia’s amphibious ship capability to provide this essential capability until arrival of the Canberra Class in due course.

[mstary1]

excellent news.

get ready for the order to go in for more HMAS Jervis Bay caps :D

Wish they would name her HMAS Gallipoli though.

[culverin]

Good day, mstary1,

In my opinion, naming anything Gallipoli would be a grave error of judgement.

Please do not forget the RAN have the proud name Anzac which commemorates the efforts of all involved in that campaign, with 3 ships already carrying this name.

That is more than adequate and of far more historical significance.

Your navy in the last Century has acquired a proud history already.
Keep the new name to one that emulates that.

[Teuchter]

Good day, mstary1,

In my opinion, naming anything Gallipoli would be a grave error of judgement.

Please do not forget the RAN have the proud name Anzac which commemorates the efforts of all involved in that campaign, with 3 ships already carrying this name.

That is more than adequate and of far more historical significance.

Your navy in the last Century has acquired a proud history already.
Keep the new name to one that emulates that.

Totally agree - whilst taking nothing away from the individual bravery of the troops, the name Gallipoli only revives memories of mistakes and needless slaughter!

Not the best name for a ship IMHO

[brian james]

Cumbersome....Large Stern.....Large Space between the Wings.....HMAS Gillard?!!!........?

[patroclus]

Cumbersome....Large Stern.....Large Space between the Wings.....HMAS Gillard?!!!........?

It would not surprise me if the thought had occurred to the lady.

[Jackaroo]

It would not surprise me if the thought had occurred to the lady.

I bloody hope not!:mad:

I for one do not agree with warships being named after pollies.

Would the RN name a future ship HMS Tony Blair?:eek:

[GordonBranch]

Must we reduce this discussion to personal slurs against our politicians?

When did Julia Gillard ever even hint she wanted a ship named after her? Never.

How about we get away from unsubstansiated and personal insults about people and get back to talking about ships. I don't come to these forums to listen to that sort of rubbish - I come here to listen to discussions about RAN ships.

[mstary1]

Must we reduce this discussion to personal slurs against our politicians?

When did Julia Gillard ever even hint she wanted a ship named after her? Never.

How about we get away from unsubstansiated and personal insults about people and get back to talking about ships. I don't come to these forums to listen to that sort of rubbish - I come here to listen to discussions about RAN ships.

Agreed, although it would be nice to the new HMAS Gillard ships crest comprising of a back with a knife protruding from it. :p

[Aussie Bhoy]

This seems like an excellent buy and a very capable ship. I was looking at the prices of additional Super Hornets, or for a single JSF and per unit this entire ship is roughly worth just 1 JSF and less than 2 Rhinos

Does this mean Tobruk or Kanimbla (or both) will also soon join Manoora in de-commission?

And I hope that in RAN service they are fitted with a CIWS

[brian james]

Lighten up............It was a joke......and was meant in the humour 'Jack' was known for!!!.................

[sons of anzac]

HMAS Largs Bay could be a go'er if the RAN go with the tradition such as it is with RN ships coming to RAN eg HMS then HMAS Shropshire. The exception to what is happening how is that Shropshire was gifted to Oz to replace the loss of HMAS Canberra in the Solomons campaign. Something coming gratis implies some kind of quid pro quo in recognition. In the instance of Largs Bay we are paying $$$ after a competitive tender process- in other words we owe them nothing.

For my 2 cents worth- I'd go with 'Jervis Bay' as a honourable name with recognition in both Oz and GB navies and countries.

For a further 2 cents worth I'd investigate the possibility of leasing 2 x catamaran hulled INCAT designs as interim, low cost capability gap fillers and not attempt to recommission either Tobruk and Kanimbla They can be mothballed on death row but spared for the moment in case of dire need.

[culverin]

Ref # 10 and the addition of CIWS to her.
All 4 ships, whilst in RFA service, have a pair of Phalanx which can be fitted in next to no time.
As it is a basic bolt on job, they are installed just abaft the cranes on the port and stbd sides very close to the edge, giving them pretty good arcs of fire, and do not interfere with any other ops.
Cardigan Bay has them as we speak whilst deployed to the Med.
The 2 similar Dutch ships have the Goalkeeper, which is a fully built in system, but more capable.
The 2 Spanish ships have less capable close range defences.

[bbragg2]

How about another ex-RN ship DUCHESS?

[patroclus]

How about another ex-RN ship DUCHESS?

DUCHESS may be in a different category. She was lent to the RAN for ten years before being purchased.

[bbragg2]

_Geeze, once ex-RN always ex-RN. How about [I]Wyatt Earp/I] then it wasn't loaned before commissioning (which makes a difference! apparently)?

[patroclus]

_Geeze, once ex-RN always ex-RN. How about [I]Wyatt Earp/I] then it wasn't loaned before commissioning (which makes a difference! apparently)?

For most of her service in the RAN the WYATT EARP was HMAS WONGALA.
See her history and reasons for reverting to previous name here:

http://www.navy.gov.au/HMAS_Wyatt_Earp

[shortyA]

We will refit her with specks she wasn't designed for, drive her around flat chat doing OOW manouvers and then break her.

[Ex QMG]

How about HMAS Australia 3, last one was the County class of WW2,
Battle Honours for 1 & 2 as per wiki

◦ Rabaul 1914
◦ North Sea 1915-18
◦ Atlantic 1940-41
◦ Pacific 1941-43
◦ Coral Sea 1942
◦ Savo Island 1942
◦ Guadalcanal 1942
◦ New Guinea 1942-44
◦ Leyte Gulf 1944
◦ Lingayen Gulf 1945

A fitting name I think

[dialabull]

I hope the "Largs Bay" is in better condition than the Supply (FRA Tide Austral) and Duchess when we aquired them. Supply was an absolute mess and Duchess never really recovered from RN neglect - probably why she was never converted like the Aussie Darings Vampire and Vendetta.

The name HMAS Gillard is appropriate as this is the most ugly ship of all times :-)) and with a top speed of 18knots is a bit of a snail. You know a merchant built box boat with Ro Ro would do the same job, be faster, have better nav equipment, less crew, more carrying capacity and look like a ship not a match box! Why air defence - who is Australia fighting at the moment?

Phil

[battlestar]

G'Day All

After talking to people in the know...
The RAN are VERY Happy with the material condition of Largs Bay. Many within the RAN see this ship as a major upgrade, with very little modifcations, and more capable than the rest of the RAN's amphibious force combined (but in the state the rest of them are in, this would not take much)
They hope to commission her in late 2011, with the hope that the ship will be in Australian waters by Christmas. It will be based in Sydney.
The leading contender for the name is HMAS Jervis Bay.
There is a faint hope that the ship and crew, if the workups are completed quickly, might attend Exersize RIMPAC 2012 off Hawaii in June.

HMAS Manoora (LPA-52) will likely decommission at the end of June 2011. Her crew will be transfered to the Largs Bay to bring her into RAN service.

Battlestar

[Lachlan of Queensland]

now this ship is exactly wat the RAN needs. a large, new amphibious warfare ship with a huge capacity. why not decommission the Kanimbla after her many proud years in the RAN and get a second Bay class?

[sons of anzac]

now this ship is exactly wat the RAN needs. a large, new amphibious warfare ship with a huge capacity. why not decommission the Kanimbla after her many proud years in the RAN and get a second Bay class?

RN will not let go of another one. Building one a bit pointless as the 2 x Canberra LPD's will be in service quicker. Stil there may be other opportunities for a second amphib / transport vessel out there shortly. I'd still like ot see a couple of INCAT fast transports to supplement / replace Kanimbla and Tobruk.

[Lachlan of Queensland]

RN will not let go of another one. Building one a bit pointless as the 2 x Canberra LPD's will be in service quicker. Stil there may be other opportunities for a second amphib / transport vessel out there shortly. I'd still like ot see a couple of INCAT fast transports to supplement / replace Kanimbla and Tobruk.

i agree with you in the not building another Bay Class.... the Canberra Class are well on thier way and it will be a proud day for RAN when they commissioned :D i would like to see an expantion on the Amphib squadron from 3 ships to 5.... purchase 2-3 medium transports like the HMAS Jarvis Bay of the 90's to supplement what ever Largs Bay will be called in the RAN and the Canberra Class?

[patroclus]

i agree with you in the not building another Bay Class.... the Canberra Class are well on thier way and it will be a proud day for RAN when they commissioned :D ..........



Agreed, but it is the "when" that worries me.:(

[Lachlan of Queensland]

HMAS Canberra has already been launched. She is the only defence project that the DMO hasn't bungled and is running on time. It is the lack of defensive armourment that worries me,... the Canberra Class will have no missiles, decoys or even a bloody Phalanx CIWS. it will be 100% dependant on escort destroyers.

[culverin]

My fear for this ship is the ability of the new owners not to tamper with a proven platform, which works well as it is.

Have heard reports of adding this, that and the other to a ship which is more than capable as it is.

Buy it, try it, and only then need you bugger it up.
As the RAN does to so much of its hardware, most of which is poor.

[battlestar]

My fear for this ship is the ability of the new owners not to tamper with a proven platform, which works well as it is.
Have heard reports of adding this, that and the other to a ship which is more than capable as it is.
Buy it, try it, and only then need you bugger it up.
As the RAN does to so much of its hardware, most of which is poor.
Sorry Culverin, but you are mistaken
Only the submarines and amphibs are in poor conditions, the rest of the fleet are in good to outstanding condition, according to an external review of the fleet.
As for modifications, I doubt any will be needed (unlike the last ex-RN ship we were foolish enough to buy), other than a CIWS and a Red Kangaroo on the funnel to show the world its now Australian.

Oh, Largs Bay will have its renaming ceremony (Jervis Bay or Westralia) in her first Australian port of call, later this year.

Battlestar

[patroclus]

Sorry Culverin, but you are mistaken
Only the submarines and amphibs are in poor conditions, the rest of the fleet are in good to outstanding condition, according to an external review of the fleet.
As for modifications, I doubt any will be needed (unlike the last ex-RN ship we were foolish enough to buy), other than a CIWS and a Red Kangaroo on the funnel to show the world its now Australian.

Oh, Largs Bay will have its renaming ceremony (Jervis Bay or Westralia) in her first Australian port of call, later this year.

Battlestar

Would she nor receive her new name at the time of commissioning into the RAN? Or are the RN providing a delivery crew for the voyage to Australia?

I noticed that Minister Smith was careful to refer to her as the LARGS BAY last night.

[battlestar]

Would she nor receive her new name at the time of commissioning into the RAN? Or are the RN providing a delivery crew for the voyage to Australia?
I noticed that Minister Smith was careful to refer to her as the LARGS BAY last night.
My understanding is that the ship will be in 'Special Commissioned' status in the RAN as an RAN crew learn the ropes before sailing the ship home.

Also when the ship reaches Australia there will be a BIG press event, including a full commissioning ceremony. More details on that when I get them. But until then, its the Largs Bay.

Battlestar

[Don Boyer]

No place for this Yank to be putting in two bits worth regarding naming the new ship, but the post from bbragg2 was intriguing, as I had never heard of it. Neither had my father, noted western historian Glenn G. Boyer who is probably the world's foremost authority on Wyatt Earp and his family and times. I passed that link on to him.

Regards,

[dialabull]

Why not call it the "HMAS Largs Bay"? The largs Bay was a Brit passo until about 1953. During the Second World War many thousands of AIF shipped in her. She also repatriated the 2/26th Battalion from Singapore after they were liberated by the Indians. The 2/26th battalion (F Force) was employed on the Burma - Siam railway wher many died. So the Largs Bay has a place in Australian Naval History. Lets face it how many "Jervis Bays" do we need. In my day JB was the end of the earth especially in the winter.

[kookaburra]

HMAS Canberra has already been launched. She is the only defence project that the DMO hasn't bungled and is running on time. It is the lack of defensive armourment that worries me,... the Canberra Class will have no missiles, decoys or even a bloody Phalanx CIWS. it will be 100% dependant on escort destroyers.

Yes, there's one vastly experienced ex-RAN bloke I speak to a lot, and every time he mentions the new CANBERRA he calls it 'our great big fat new target.'
Surely there will be be some defensive capacity added at some point, especially as [according to The Australian newspaper] the Air Warfare Destroyer building program is now running into heaps of trouble and delays, initially from the bungled keel block fabricating at Williamstown, but also apparently from some 2,400 design errors identified in the plans sent to ASC in South Australia[according to the newspaper, that is].

[Lachlan of Queensland]

Yes, there's one vastly experienced ex-RAN bloke I speak to a lot, and every time he mentions the new CANBERRA he calls it 'our great big fat new target.'
Surely there will be be some defensive capacity added at some point, especially as [according to The Australian newspaper] the Air Warfare Destroyer building program is now running into heaps of trouble and delays, initially from the bungled keel block fabricating at Williamstown, but also apparently from some 2,400 design errors identified in the plans sent to ASC in South Australia[according to the newspaper, that is].

kookaburra ive seen what the Australian says..... im hoping (though i no they correct) that this 2400 faults is wrong!! we get 3 destroyers for 8 billion dollars... we could get 4-6 bourke class for that much and we would have them ontime without risk or blowouts!!! screw nation building and focus on getting quality in quantity on time

[culverin]

In my view, the RAN look as if they will have a superb trio of very capable logistics ships for the future.
Canberra, Adelaide and ex RFA Largs Bay constitute a formidable force by any stretch of the imagination.

But for the future, say early 2020's, maybe the addition of A Dutch JSS would enhance these capabilities considerably.

And you get a tanker come supply ship thrown in too, all in the one hull.

The new Dutch ship is HNLMS Karel Doorman, laid down only two weeks ago.

Check her out.

Oh, and the Canadians need to pay attention too.
Actually, so do we Brits.

[bluestreak]

I met a couple of dinks whilst having a pint outside The Ship Anson last week. They are over here doing courses such as firefighting prior to joining Largs Bay. They seemed quite happy about their new home.

[RANFAN]

I met a couple of dinks whilst having a pint outside The Ship Anson last week. They are over here doing courses such as firefighting prior to joining Largs Bay. They seemed quite happy about their new home.


Dinks, never heard that one before what does it refer to or should i leave it to the imagination.

their happy because its a paid holiday for a few months.

[bbragg2]

I met a couple of dinks whilst having a pint outside The Ship Anson last week. They are over here doing courses such as firefighting prior to joining Largs Bay. They seemed quite happy about their new home.
Didn't know the RAN now allowed couples to serve on the same ship!! Must have changed the rules lately!!

[Lachlan of Queensland]

Didn't know the RAN now allowed couples to serve on the same ship!! Must have changed the rules lately!!

the RAN allows "declared relationships" to serve aboard the same warship but ONLY if the captain of the ship in question allows it. if he says no then no couples serve aboard that ship until there is a change of command. so it all depends on the captains personal opinion

[battlestar]

I met a couple of dinks whilst having a pint outside The Ship Anson last week. They are over here doing courses such as firefighting prior to joining Largs Bay. They seemed quite happy about their new home.
You're not wrong Bluestreak!
I just got back from learning more about Largs Bay handover, and the crew are blown away with their onboard accommodations. Even the lowest rank has his own room aboard.
The latest on Largs Bay is that the Aust Govt are struggling to find $60 million dollars to outfit Largs Bay to operate in the tropics (In other words Australian waters). Typical!

Battlestar

[Three Mike Port]

Hmmm, maybe Largs Bay isnt so great after all, the Aussie Journos have nicknamed her HMAS Lemon Scented :)

102523

Link to the news article here:

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/national/the-navys-newest-100-million-amphibious-ship-has-been-tagged-hmas-lemon-scented/story-e6freuzr-1226103029367

[Lachlan of Queensland]

Hmmm, maybe Largs Bay isnt so great after all, the Aussie Journos have nicknamed her HMAS Lemon Scented :)

102523

Link to the news article here:

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/national/the-navys-newest-100-million-amphibious-ship-has-been-tagged-hmas-lemon-scented/story-e6freuzr-1226103029367

the majority of the problems are caused by the fact that RFA Largs Bay was built for the atlantic ocean and other cool climates. these faults are caused by the increase of temperature and can be easily rectified.

[Three Mike Port]

I'm sceptical Lachlan.

With politicians, when it comes to choosing between incompetence and conspiracy, I would go with incompetence every time. Conspiracy takes far too much effort and planning.

The ship was purchased secondhand for $100 million dollars and was launched 8 years ago and has several well known deep seated machinery/space design problems. That sounds very expensive to fix to me, like probably another $100 million.

Whereas the kiwis PURPOSE built HMNZS Canterbury L421 roughly 25% smaller than Largs Bay for $100 million Australian Dollars to operate in warm climates and the Southern Ocean.

Is Defence yet again getting their trousers yanked around their proverbial ankles?

[Three Mike Port]

the RAN allows "declared relationships" to serve aboard the same warship but ONLY if the captain of the ship in question allows it. if he says no then no couples serve aboard that ship until there is a change of command. so it all depends on the captains personal opinion

That statement is completely wrong!

Fraternisation is not allowed on RAN ships period! If you declare a relationship officially then one or both ships co are transferred to another ship or shore.

Some skippers however, know through ditty's that hanky panky is going on and turn a blind eye to it as long as it doesnt get in the way etc... but it is not the CO's decision. I can assure you if you get it on with an oppo ashore and you are observed by the CO or others in authority then you WILL receive a visit from the Regulator.

I think you have been watching too much Sea Patrol :)

[mstary1]

That statement is completely wrong!

Fraternisation is not allowed on RAN ships period! If you declare a relationship officially then one or both ships co are transferred to another ship or shore.

Some skippers however, know through ditty's that hanky panky is going on and turn a blind eye to it as long as it doesnt get in the way etc... but it is not the CO's decision. I can assure you if you get it on with an oppo ashore and you are observed by the CO or others in authority then you WILL receive a visit from the Regulator.

I think you have been watching too much Sea Patrol :)

In Theory Mike. In Practice plenty of girls and boys "Get it on" not only ashore but on the ship as well. On one of my last ships, the girls were all "Spoken for" as it were. One was with the CO ashore most of the time. Fraternisation might not be allowed but it is very common and we all know it.

As for Largs Bay, I'll reserve judgement. At 8 years old, a better option than Kanimbla and Manoora ever were. Lets hope bugs can be ironed out and the RAN gets a first class ship.

[culverin]

Blimey.
Go back to my #27.
My fears are now facts.
No wonder your navy is so shambolic.
I just pity the poor lads who have to contend with all the gratuitous negative nonsense over a ship which you have not even hauled your ensign up.
For over 20 years the RAN has comprised the wrong ships for the wrong tasks.
Now you finally acquire one, operate her and then congratulate yourselves on a good buy.
Plenty of other navies wanted her.

[Three Mike Port]

I don't know about the RN Culverin, but the RAN is pretty much led around by the nose by politicians.

Its all very well saying don't change anything, but engineering reports have clearly shown that Largs Bay is incapable of operating anywhere near top speed for any period of time without overheating the propulsion system and that is in a cold climate.
So...you can extrapolate that overheating, introduce a warmer climate and then you may find she doesnt operate at half speed without overheating.

Imagine operating that ship around Samoa/Fiji across the largest expanses of water, which are places it is destined to go, it would be constantly breaking down. The Aussies are giving it due diligence and would look like complete idiots if they put the ship to see without fixing up the design flaws.

I think in the end, they paid far too much for it.

[Three Mike Port]

In Theory Mike. In Practice plenty of girls and boys "Get it on" not only ashore but on the ship as well. On one of my last ships, the girls were all "Spoken for" as it were. One was with the CO ashore most of the time. Fraternisation might not be allowed but it is very common and we all know it.

Sure, agreed, but it is in no way policy though and if you flaunt it and push it enough then the puss will break it up.

[Lachlan of Queensland]

That statement is completely wrong!

Fraternisation is not allowed on RAN ships period! If you declare a relationship officially then one or both ships co are transferred to another ship or shore.

Some skippers however, know through ditty's that hanky panky is going on and turn a blind eye to it as long as it doesnt get in the way etc... but it is not the CO's decision. I can assure you if you get it on with an oppo ashore and you are observed by the CO or others in authority then you WILL receive a visit from the Regulator.

I think you have been watching too much Sea Patrol :)

actually i dont watch sea partrol,...... i got this off a documentary about HMAS Toowoomba (FFH 156) that was posted to the Royal Australian Navy site a year or 2 back. the documentary was called "Australian Pirate Patrol" if u need to find my source.

http://natgeotv.com.au/videos/pirate-patrol/declared-relationships-478048AC.aspx here is a link to follow to the part on declared relationships

[Lachlan of Queensland]

I don't know about the RN Culverin, but the RAN is pretty much led around by the nose by politicians.

Its all very well saying don't change anything, but engineering reports have clearly shown that Largs Bay is incapable of operating anywhere near top speed for any period of time without overheating the propulsion system and that is in a cold climate.
So...you can extrapolate that overheating, introduce a warmer climate and then you may find she doesnt operate at half speed without overheating.

Imagine operating that ship around Samoa/Fiji across the largest expanses of water, which are places it is destined to go, it would be constantly breaking down. The Aussies are giving it due diligence and would look like complete idiots if they put the ship to see without fixing up the design flaws.

I think in the end, they paid far too much for it.

paid to much for it?? it cost 100 million to buy it... maybe another 5-15million to make it up to our standards but it is a very good bang for our buck compared to the Kanimbla and Manoora.

as to it breaking down well we have seen it time and again from the Collins class. but i believe that the ADF will manage not to turn this into HMAS Lemon and make a useful warship out of Largs Bay

[Jackaroo]

TBH there's not much on that defect list that can't be remedied quite easily. A lot of sold off grey things need work doing to them to bring them to the buyers needs.


Anyway we only want to make the air con work:)

[Lachlan of Queensland]

TBH there's not much on that defect list that can't be remedied quite easily. A lot of sold off grey things need work doing to them to bring them to the buyers needs.


Anyway we only want to make the air con work:)

yes its easily fixed most of the problems.... no more than a couple million to upgrade it to operate in our waters and about 30 thousand for a new paint job to put a new name, Pennant number on the hull. she looks like a very capable Amphib from the photos and reports ive seen. big bang for our buck... thank you UK Defence cuts :D

[Three Mike Port]

paid to much for it?? it cost 100 million to buy it... maybe another 5-15million to make it up to our standards but it is a very good bang for our buck compared to the Kanimbla and Manoora.

as to it breaking down well we have seen it time and again from the Collins class. but i believe that the ADF will manage not to turn this into HMAS Lemon and make a useful warship out of Largs Bay

$5-15 million to make useful, add a zero to that number. the average SMP costs $5 million.

HMAS Manoora and HMAS Kanimbla were purchased for a total sum of $40 million, not each but for both.
The RAN then spent over $500 million alone on Kanimbla and that wasnt rust removal either.

I smell another stuff up.

[Lachlan of Queensland]

$5-15 million to make useful, add a zero to that number. the average SMP costs $5 million.

HMAS Manoora and HMAS Kanimbla were purchased for a total sum of $40 million, not each but for both.
The RAN then spent over $500 million alone on Kanimbla and that wasnt rust removal either.

I smell another stuff up.

every warship requires maintenance.... granted the state of Kanimbla and Manoora when they were purchased would increase costs. different era and different government.

hopefully the ADF and RAN wont allow this mistake happen again, the new CDF and Chief of Navy dont wont this blemish on their records only weeks into their stints in the top jobs. i got faith that the RAN can get this right and that the DMO wont turn it into a cluster-F%^&

[RANFAN]

Don’t forget that RFA Largs Bay at the time of her disposal was due for refit which is being done before hand over, there are rumours off shoddy workmanship from Swan hunter regarding the building of Largs Bay and also RFA Lyme Bay which is why the vessel was moved from Swan Hunter to BAE to complete, one has to wonder about the performance of the workforce knowing once the vessel was complete you were out of a job and might not put the due diligence into the work performance than a person who has a safe employment prospects.

The Kiwis payed NZD 130 million for HMNZS Canterbury a less capable ship compared to a Bay class with less than desirable handling in rough sea. For the needs of the Kiwis I believe a better ship could have been the Singaporean Endurance Class about the overall size dimensions as Canterbury but with a functional well dock. The Royal Thai Navy just launched the same class of LPD in March 2011 their LPD built by the Singaporeans for SGD 200 million plus landing craft which in today exchange rate is NZD 189 million with the same crewing requirements and a ship designed for the area which it will operate, our 2nd hand ship for AUD 100 million plus the cost of a refit with twice the capacity and flexibility is a bargain compared to the Kiwis and what we have now 3 ships that can do the job of 1 Bay class that are heading for the scrap yard.

Now if only we can get the Kiwis to replace the Canterbury with a Korean Dokdo class LPH in the future, but I think she will be a bit more than NZD 130 million!!!

[sons of anzac]

the ex RFA Largs Bay, soon to be HMAS ?????, will not be a repeat of the Kanimbla / Manoora as the bare bones of the ship are in a much netter condition than the ex USN landing ships were. She is much younger and to me the equipment defects outlined are normal things that come up for replacement / attention during refits. And, lets face it, RN ships have for a long time been much more designed for Atlantic- northern climates than the Pacific / Indian Oceans. It was problem in WW2 with the RN ships coming out the the Far East (especially those that had been on artic convoy duty) and it remains so now. Its simply a matter of providing sufficient conditioning and similar material to ensure habitability for the crews and embarked personnel. It workd in WW2 it can work now.

The RAN has rightly deserved a poke in the nose for some things but in this instance I reckon its unfair and a sensationalised headline and article without balance. She aint a lemon.

[Stokers Son]

Hi All,
Could some one please help me out here. What is problem with ship's serving in northern waters then coming to serve in the Pacific region or southern oceans. I hope this makes sense.
Thank you
John

[mstary1]

the ex RFA Largs Bay, soon to be HMAS ?????, will not be a repeat of the Kanimbla / Manoora as the bare bones of the ship are in a much netter condition than the ex USN landing ships were. She is much younger and to me the equipment defects outlined are normal things that come up for replacement / attention during refits. And, lets face it, RN ships have for a long time been much more designed for Atlantic- northern climates than the Pacific / Indian Oceans. It was problem in WW2 with the RN ships coming out the the Far East (especially those that had been on artic convoy duty) and it remains so now. Its simply a matter of providing sufficient conditioning and similar material to ensure habitability for the crews and embarked personnel. It workd in WW2 it can work now.

The RAN has rightly deserved a poke in the nose for some things but in this instance I reckon its unfair and a sensationalised headline and article without balance. She aint a lemon.

Exactly, and think of all the modifications done to Kanimbla and Manoora without the rust removal to get them to what was required, that won't be needed for Largs Bay. I have high hopes that she will turn to be a great addition to the RAN.

[Three Mike Port]

Don’t forget that RFA Largs Bay at the time of her disposal was due for refit which is being done before hand over, there are rumours off shoddy workmanship from Swan hunter regarding the building of Largs Bay and also RFA Lyme Bay which is why the vessel was moved from Swan Hunter to BAE to complete, one has to wonder about the performance of the workforce knowing once the vessel was complete you were out of a job and might not put the due diligence into the work performance than a person who has a safe employment prospects.

The Kiwis payed NZD 130 million for HMNZS Canterbury a less capable ship compared to a Bay class with less than desirable handling in rough sea. For the needs of the Kiwis I believe a better ship could have been the Singaporean Endurance Class about the overall size dimensions as Canterbury but with a functional well dock. The Royal Thai Navy just launched the same class of LPD in March 2011 their LPD built by the Singaporeans for SGD 200 million plus landing craft which in today exchange rate is NZD 189 million with the same crewing requirements and a ship designed for the area which it will operate, our 2nd hand ship for AUD 100 million plus the cost of a refit with twice the capacity and flexibility is a bargain compared to the Kiwis and what we have now 3 ships that can do the job of 1 Bay class that are heading for the scrap yard.

Now if only we can get the Kiwis to replace the Canterbury with a Korean Dokdo class LPH in the future, but I think she will be a bit more than NZD 130 million!!!

Where does one begin?

Firstly, the current exchange rate with the kiwis would make the $130 million paid for a brand new purpose built ship less than a quarter smaller than Largs Bay equivalent to just over $100 million AUD but able to offer the exact same capability. sure largs bay can carry more freight/dead weight but that is commensurate with the size of the force the army would be re-supplying.

What seakeepping problems does CANTERBURY have? Do tell, she is currently certified to Sea State 9. Sure she has had some issues with her RHIB's being washed away in heavy seas and that has been subsequently rectified.
However the vessel is perfect for what the kiwis need.
They dont need a landing dock as they have no amphibious equipment.

I have not seen a full defect list of Largs Bay as per the journalists report and if any one has an official list then post it. What I will say is the report explicitly states that the electrical generators/propulsion units are overheating and that, from personal knowledge is not possible to fix by adding additional supply and exhaust fans to the engine room. It is a known substantial design flaw of the propulsion plant that is not easily fixed without throwing substantial funds at it.
As far as airconditioning in crew areas, who cares, that can be easily fixed, the toilets not functioning as per design can also be fixed.
The ship is about to undergo a half life refit early because of the propulsion plant problems and the RN are well aware of the potential headache hence their desire to sell the ship in the first place.
Anyone who thinks this ship will be made operational in Australian/Pacific/Indian waters for only 10 or 20 million obviously have no experience with the department of defence. Try an additional $200 million.

I have no doubt the RAN crew of this ship will be very proud of her but that does not stop those of us who have been there before pointing out a few stumbles that await this vessel and whether it is right to throw huge amounts of cash at a vessel not purpose built for our conditions.

[Three Mike Port]

Hi All,
Could some one please help me out here. What is problem with ship's serving in northern waters then coming to serve in the Pacific region or southern oceans. I hope this makes sense.
Thank you
John

I'm not sure what sons of ANZAC is referring to, but generally from my experience there is no difference whatsoever.
Ships built for the RN around WW2 most did not have airconditioning and relied on natural ventilation particularly in crew messes which for around England is not too much of an issue. Operating those vessels in warm climates makes conditions for the crew quite uncomfortable.
Its been a natural progression from the days of natural air and hammocks to triple high bunk 50 man messes with full heat/cool airconditioning to what we see nowadays with 1, 2, 4 man cabins with their own heads/showers etc...
The issues with Largs Bay and the air conditioning not being adequate when the ship is operating around Spain are relatively easy to fix.
Although it appears there has been a major engineering design error with respect to the propulsion system and that will be a substantial problem in a warm climate and certainly not easy to fix.

[RANFAN]

Where does one begin?

Firstly, the current exchange rate with the kiwis would make the $130 million paid for a brand new purpose built ship less than a quarter smaller than Largs Bay equivalent to just over $100 million AUD but able to offer the exact same capability. sure largs bay can carry more freight/dead weight but that is commensurate with the size of the force the army would be re-supplying.

What seakeepping problems does CANTERBURY have? Do tell, she is currently certified to Sea State 9. Sure she has had some issues with her RHIB's being washed away in heavy seas and that has been subsequently rectified.
However the vessel is perfect for what the kiwis need.
They dont need a landing dock as they have no amphibious equipment.

I have not seen a full defect list of Largs Bay as per the journalists report and if any one has an official list then post it. What I will say is the report explicitly states that the electrical generators/propulsion units are overheating and that, from personal knowledge is not possible to fix by adding additional supply and exhaust fans to the engine room. It is a known substantial design flaw of the propulsion plant that is not easily fixed without throwing substantial funds at it.
As far as airconditioning in crew areas, who cares, that can be easily fixed, the toilets not functioning as per design can also be fixed.
The ship is about to undergo a half life refit early because of the propulsion plant problems and the RN are well aware of the potential headache hence their desire to sell the ship in the first place.
Anyone who thinks this ship will be made operational in Australian/Pacific/Indian waters for only 10 or 20 million obviously have no experience with the department of defence. Try an additional $200 million.

I have no doubt the RAN crew of this ship will be very proud of her but that does not stop those of us who have been there before pointing out a few stumbles that await this vessel and whether it is right to throw huge amounts of cash at a vessel not purpose built for our conditions.

No amphibious assets, not much different from Australia ASLAV, M113AS4 lost it amphibious capability when upgrade but it could not be used like an AAV-7A1 when it had it. We will be using LCM-8 from the well dock protected from the elements and safer than stern ramp docking, but we will still use the stern gate docking cycle with the LCH.

Canterbury is based on a commercial RORO ship used in the coastal waters of the Irish Sea, from an independent review,
Quote, the Ben my Chree is a ‘short/fat’ ship that operates across the Irish Sea where conditions are akin to coastal waters, where the seas are generally short crested as compared with deep oceans. Even a cursory examination of her design and operating profile should have raised questions over her suitability, once modified, for long operational patrols in the Southern Oceans. It is axiomatic that the hull form of a ship designed for short sea crossings may not be ideally suited as a solution to fulfil the full Functional Performance Specification1 for the MRV.

http://www.defence.govt.nz/pdfs/independent-review-safety-hmnzs-canterbury.pdf

[sons of anzac]

Hi All,
Could some one please help me out here. What is problem with ship's serving in northern waters then coming to serve in the Pacific region or southern oceans. I hope this makes sense.
Thank you
John

As 3MikePort referred to- RN ships were fitted out for cold climates and have less airflow, less powerful aircon and previously (but I dont think so now) less water generation capability. As you can imagine, they were humid, hot houses in the tropics with water rationed to top off unpleasant conditions. My uncle told me long ago that in the British Pacific Fleet in 1945 quite a few of their ships engine rooms, mess decks / crew quarters were constantly above 100 Fahrenheit days on end. He said the prob was mainly on the ships that had previously done the artic runs- what the cause / difference was I dont know.

If the RAN solely operated in the Antartic / southern oceans it would not matter but we mostly operate in the tropics / islands to our north. I imagine the RN has improved the aircon in the intervening years but I suspect it needs supplementing to RAN standards now.

PS I'll wait to hear further on the propulsion system probs before I get to worried.

[Jackaroo]

the ex RFA Largs Bay, soon to be HMAS ?????, will not be a repeat of the Kanimbla / Manoora as the bare bones of the ship are in a much netter condition than the ex USN landing ships were. She is much younger and to me the equipment defects outlined are normal things that come up for replacement / attention during refits. And, lets face it, RN ships have for a long time been much more designed for Atlantic- northern climates than the Pacific / Indian Oceans. It was problem in WW2 with the RN ships coming out the the Far East (especially those that had been on artic convoy duty) and it remains so now. Its simply a matter of providing sufficient conditioning and similar material to ensure habitability for the crews and embarked personnel. It workd in WW2 it can work now.

The RAN has rightly deserved a poke in the nose for some things but in this instance I reckon its unfair and a sensationalised headline and article without balance. She aint a lemon.

I believe some clown in Canberra has decided she will be named....HMAS Jervis Bay....

[battlestar]

After talking to people that are directly involved with the handover to the RAN, I though you'd like the CN RAN's view on that stupid article by New Limited.

CN LETTER OF RECORD - LARGS BAY

An article in some New Limited papers today (HMAS Lemon Scented 28 Jul 2011) concerning Defence’s purchase of ex-Royal Fleet Auxiliary amphibious ship Largs Bay is misleading.

The article discusses the supersession report submitted by the ship’s previous Chief Engineer in February this year. Supersession reports are the formal means by which a ship’s engineer submits his own assessment of the materiel state of his ship prior to handing over his engineering responsibilities to another engineer. The report is principally used to inform the development of the maintenance and repair package prior to the ship’s next operating period.

Defence was aware of the report and it was taken into account in the development and negotiation of the package of refit work that is currently being progressed in a shipyard in the UK.

The February supersession report by the Chief Engineer was not extraordinary and is similar to other routine reports submitted by ships engineers.

The current refit activity addresses the key issues raised in the supersession report.

It is also worth pointing out that international shipping firm, Teekay Shipping Australia, thoroughly inspected the ship prior to the submission of Australia’s bid and found that:

“the ship presents very well, and from a technical point of view, there are no major defects.”

Teekay was also engaged on the sea trial and have provided an updated report that confirms their previous assessment.

Largs Bay was well constructed and overall remains in good materiel condition. The ship was in operational service with the Royal Fleet Auxiliary immediately prior to commencing refit and is not “mothballed”. I am confident that Largs Bay will provide excellent service in Navy once the ship arrives in Australia at the end of this year.

VADM Ray Griggs
Chief of Navy

You can read the original at
http://www.navy.gov.au/CN_Letter_of_Record_-_Largs_Bay

As those in the know stated, 'Enough said!'

Battlestar

[battlestar]

I believe some clown in Canberra has decided she will be named....HMAS Jervis Bay....
Oh, and by the way, the name Jervis Bay is NOT set in stone, two others are now in the mix since last month, Westralia and Gallipoli, at least that's what my Canberra contact told me over coffee last week!

Battlestar

[Jackaroo]

Oh, and by the way, the name Jervis Bat is NOT set in stone, two others are now in the mix since last month, Westralia and Gallipoli, at least that's what my Canberra contact told me over coffee last week!

Battlestar

Thanks Battlestar...If i was a betting man I wonder what the ODDS are on the names :rolleyes:

[battlestar]

Thanks Battlestar...If i was a betting man I wonder what the ODDS are on the names :rolleyes:
Since its in the hands of politicians...don't ask!

Its not like they listened for the names of the LHD's. Yes, Canberra was one name acceptable to the RAN for such a large ship, but over 80% of serving RAN personnel wanted the lead ship to be HMAS Australia, they wanted the pride of the fleet back, but the South Australian Liberal Party Mafia led by then Defence Minister Robert Hill and the other federal SA politicians wanted Adelaide, and they got their way. Oh, FYI, it was hoped at the time that Adelaide was to be the third Hobart DDG, with the new Sydney being the lead name of the FFG replacement class due by the end of the decade, but even that is now on the backburner!

Battlestar

[Lachlan of Queensland]

personally i am disappointed on the LHD Adelaide i would have liked to see the lead ship HMAS Australia and HMAS Canberra as the second ship but it was the polititians decision :mad: i think that the RAN should be allowed to name their own warships. HMAS Adelaide could be one of the FFG replacement or even the name of a 4th AWD if we are able to commision the first 3 sucessfuly.

[sons of anzac]

Too true guys. The naming of ships goes by tradition and the re-issue of an old name instill pride and memories of past deeds. Naming ships out of sequence / category is something that the pollies & their staffers cant understand how disturbing it is to those that care. How many now have previous military experience? SFA. They just dont get the concept of honour, duty and pride in country. For them its the short term fix and gaining / retaining power. The RAN should demand that the naming of ships come back to their responsibility and get the pollies out of it.

[Lachlan of Queensland]

Too true guys. The naming of ships goes by tradition and the re-issue of an old name instill pride and memories of past deeds. Naming ships out of sequence / category is something that the pollies & their staffers cant understand how disturbing it is to those that care. How many now have previous military experience? SFA. They just dont get the concept of honour, duty and pride in country. For them its the short term fix and gaining / retaining power. The RAN should demand that the naming of ships come back to their responsibility and get the pollies out of it.

couldnt agree more.... the Chief of navy should bring this up with the DoD and get right to the naming of the RAN's Warships given back to the Navy! why! i agree with the naming of the Destroyers but the LHD needs to possess flagship names such as Australia and Canberra. just be thankful we not naming the LHD's HMAS Gillard or HMAS Kevin Rudd because that would just be an insult to the Royal Australian Navy

[Three Mike Port]

couldnt agree more.... the Chief of navy should bring this up with the DoD and get right to the naming of the RAN's Warships given back to the Navy! why! i agree with the naming of the Destroyers but the LHD needs to possess flagship names such as Australia and Canberra. just be thankful we not naming the LHD's HMAS Gillard or HMAS Kevin Rudd because that would just be an insult to the Royal Australian Navy

:) I don't know, if Largs Bay does turn out to be a lemon then calling her HMAS Gillard would suit wouldnt it?

[Lachlan of Queensland]

:) I don't know, if Largs Bay does turn out to be a lemon then calling her HMAS Gillard would suit wouldnt it?

nice one mike ill pay you that one :) but then wouldnt we have to paint the super-structure red to go along with her head :p :p :p

[ludsie]

I think we definitely need another hmas australia but would prefer something a bit better then this ship

[Lachlan of Queensland]

true if we bought an america class amphib/light carrier or a QE class Carrier it would make a perfect HMAS Australia but i belive we will have to make do with a LHD for now :/

[ludsie]

Agree Lachlan and I don't think we'll be buying a decent platform for the name so might as well go with what we have

[Lachlan of Queensland]

ayee ludie its a damned shame there is to be no HMAS Australia added to our fleet.

back to Largs bay... what to name her? i think Gallipoli in honour of our first amphibious assult (result of the battle be damned)

[LinzOC]

personally i am disappointed on the LHD Adelaide i would have liked to see the lead ship HMAS Australia and HMAS Canberra as the second ship but it was the polititians decision :mad: i think that the RAN should be allowed to name their own warships. HMAS Adelaide could be one of the FFG replacement or even the name of a 4th AWD if we are able to commision the first 3 sucessfuly.

The RAN do name their own warships; it's covered by a DI(N) whose number I forget. The Deputy CN put me on to it when I asked a while back about why Adelaide and not Australia.

A LHD fails to meet the criteria that an Australia needs; as the RADM explained it an LHD is not an offensive naval unit; an Australia needs to be. I only disagreed with one aspect of his e-mail; I think they should of been Kanimbla and Moonora as they are the main Army-support ship names; leave Canberra and Adelaide for new FFGs.

[Lachlan of Queensland]

The RAN do name their own warships; it's covered by a DI(N) whose number I forget. The Deputy CN put me on to it when I asked a while back about why Adelaide and not Australia.

A LHD fails to meet the criteria that an Australia needs; as the RADM explained it an LHD is not an offensive naval unit; an Australia needs to be. I only disagreed with one aspect of his e-mail; I think they should of been Kanimbla and Moonora as they are the main Army-support ship names; leave Canberra and Adelaide for new FFGs.

welcome to the forum LinzOC :D hmmm that is some very interesting information, i have never heard of such requirements for the name Australia to be used!

did your friend drop any hints onto what Largs Bay will be called in RAN service??

[LinzOC]

welcome to the forum LinzOC :D hmmm that is some very interesting information, i have never heard of such requirements for the name Australia to be used!

did your friend drop any hints onto what Largs Bay will be called in RAN service??

Nah, RADM don't chat with plebs like me!

The thinking goes that Australia is the Flagship of the Fleet, as such it needs to be 'the big stick'. A LHD is just a Army support vessel; a CV, CA or CG on the other hand would be a big stick.

Should we buy a CV though we'd have to put up with Melbourne claims.

[Lachlan of Queensland]

Nah, RADM don't chat with plebs like me!

The thinking goes that Australia is the Flagship of the Fleet, as such it needs to be 'the big stick'. A LHD is just a Army support vessel; a CV, CA or CG on the other hand would be a big stick.

Should we buy a CV though we'd have to put up with Melbourne claims.

ahh well the RADM probably has more important things to do then talk to the plebs :p

chech out the thread the ideal RAN and you'll see what sort of ships that other forum members believe the RAN requires... there is a whole debate on whether Australia needs carriers (CV) :D

[mstary1]

ahh well the RADM probably has more important things to do then talk to the plebs :p

chech out the thread the ideal RAN and you'll see what sort of ships that other forum members believe the RAN requires... there is a whole debate on whether Australia needs carriers (CV) :D

This is a country that named frigates Perth and Toowoomba :p
No disrespect to the city of Toowoomba but not a name for a frigate.
I don't think we will ever see another HMAS Australia.

HMAS Gallipoli would be nice.
HMAS Stalwart?
Another Jervis Bay.
Westralia
Shropshire to commemorate the UK heritage of the ship?

I guess we all know Jervis Bay will be chosen.

[Lachlan of Queensland]

This is a country that named frigates Perth and Toowoomba :p
No disrespect to the city of Toowoomba but not a name for a frigate.
I don't think we will ever see another HMAS Australia.

HMAS Gallipoli would be nice.
HMAS Stalwart?
Another Jervis Bay.
Westralia
Shropshire to commemorate the UK heritage of the ship?

I guess we all know Jervis Bay will be chosen.

nothing really wrong with HMAS Jarvis Bay but yes id go for HMAS Gallipoli

thats sad... it would be nice to see another capital ship in our fleet carrying our countries name!

[bbragg2]

nothing really wrong with HMAS Jarvis Bay but yes id go for HMAS Gallipoli


I thought maybe HMAS JERVIS BAY no sense in starting with a name we have never had!!!

[Lachlan of Queensland]

I thought maybe HMAS JERVIS BAY no sense in starting with a name we have never had!!!

a while back in the 70's until the 90's there was a ship named HMAS Jervis Bay (GT 203)
and that was our first Jervis bay so there is a first for every name :p

what is wrong with naming a ship after the greatest amphibous assult in our nations history (result of the operation be damned)?

[bbragg2]

Yes it was called Jervis Bay not Jarvis Bay!! That was my point! Yes call it Jervis Bay but not Jarvis Bay!!

[Lachlan of Queensland]

Yes it was called Jervis Bay not Jarvis Bay!! That was my point! Yes call it Jervis Bay but not Jarvis Bay!!

well you could have pointed that out please... i thought you were talking about the name HMAS Gallipoli mmm well how silly of me with my mispelling :/

p.s. sorry for coming across cheeky i didnt see my mistake.

[Paddy54]

HMAS "Whatsoever you call her" is schedulaed to depart the UK bound for Australia.

Route, presumabely, will be via the Med. Possible 'show the flag' visits at Crete, Malta, and Egypt before entering the canal.

With a displacemnet of some 16,000 tones there should be ample unallocated carriage space for additional cargo once the ADF and Diplomatic loadings have taken place.

There is widespread starvation in the refugee camps in the Horn of Africa.

A 'do good' possibility exists to make use of the ships full capacity by carring food and medical aid for both the UN and NGO's.

Offloading in Mogadishu, Somalia, would openly invite their pirates to loot the stores. Mombassa in Kenya would be a far better port of call. (Perchance there is a more acceptable 'over the beaches, drop off point closer to the refugee camps on the Kenya/Somalia border?)

Australia provides the transport; other European countries and NGO's show their support for the refugees by donating aid and funding the necessary transport.

For the RAN it's a 'win-win' situation. The ship is passing through the area anyway and others are encouraged to fund aid packages. If no other nation will come to the party then it cannon be said that we tried.

For Australia to purchase foodsfuffs from the EU, the home of the Common Agricutural Policy subsidies that are causing the death of Australia farming would be an expensive slap in the face to local landholders.

[Stokers Son]

HMAS Choules
The Prime Minister, Julia Gillard and the Minister for Defence Stephen Smith announced at HMAS Stirling that the Royal Australian Navy's newest ship will be commissioned as HMAS Choules. This name is in honour of Mr Claude Choules, the last known veteran to have served in active service in the First World War. Chief Petty Officer Claude Choules served in both the Royal Navy during the First World War and the Royal Australian Navy in the Second World War. He represented the last living link with those who served in the First World War. Mr Choules passed away in Perth, Western Australia on 5 May 2011, at the age of 110. NUSHIP Choules in scheduled to arrive in Australia in December and will be commissioned into the Royal Australian Navy in Fremantle as HMAS Choules. NUSHIP Choules is a Landing Ship Dock commissioned into service for the Royal Navy in 2006. It became surplus to the United Kingdom requirements as a result of the UK Government's 2010 Defence Strategic Review. The ship is 176 metres long and has proven its capability in the Royal Navy and conducted sea trials in April 2011 for the Royal Australian Navy. HMAS Choules is expected to be operational in early 2012.
Regards
John

[kersim]

And the winner for the name is HMAS Choules after the last remaining WWI vet who happens (happened) to be an Aussie / RN sailor...

From memory, the second time ever that a RAN commissioned unit has been named after a non-commissioned sailor.

Check out the story here http://www.navy.gov.au/Naming_of_Ex_RFA_Largs_Bay_-_HMAS_Choules

IMO a great choice and a great story that goes with the whole thing. Very heart warming :)

[Lachlan of Queensland]

HMAS Choules
The Prime Minister, Julia Gillard and the Minister for Defence Stephen Smith announced at HMAS Stirling that the Royal Australian Navy's newest ship will be commissioned as HMAS Choules. This name is in honour of Mr Claude Choules, the last known veteran to have served in active service in the First World War. Chief Petty Officer Claude Choules served in both the Royal Navy during the First World War and the Royal Australian Navy in the Second World War. He represented the last living link with those who served in the First World War. Mr Choules passed away in Perth, Western Australia on 5 May 2011, at the age of 110. NUSHIP Choules in scheduled to arrive in Australia in December and will be commissioned into the Royal Australian Navy in Fremantle as HMAS Choules. NUSHIP Choules is a Landing Ship Dock commissioned into service for the Royal Navy in 2006. It became surplus to the United Kingdom requirements as a result of the UK Government's 2010 Defence Strategic Review. The ship is 176 metres long and has proven its capability in the Royal Navy and conducted sea trials in April 2011 for the Royal Australian Navy. HMAS Choules is expected to be operational in early 2012.
Regards
John

mmmm well we are all wrong... i bet no one expected that name to come out of the hat :P well i approve of the name seeing as he was a veteran of both world wars for the RAN. lets hope HMAS Choules lives up to the reputaion of her namesake

[battlestar]

mmmm well we are all wrong... i bet no one expected that name to come out of the hat :P well i approve of the name seeing as he was a veteran of both world wars for the RAN. lets hope HMAS Choules lives up to the reputaion of her namesake
I must admit, I'm 50/50 about this.
I have no doubt that Claude Choules deserves the honours he gets.
But when you compare his record to other just as worthy, it seem the only reason it was named was he was the last man standing (so to speak)

Plus, once again, the RAN and its people's wishes are ignored, with the push for Gallipoli or Jervis Bay apparently not even considered by the politicians.

I'm truly fed up with decisions like this done for a politician's vanity, as I watched the PM gloat over this decision.

That said, I wish the ship fair winds and calm seas, and wait to see her in December.

[Lachlan of Queensland]

I must admit, I'm 50/50 about this.
I have no doubt that Claude Choules deserves the honours he gets.
But when you compare his record to other just as worthy, it seem the only reason it was named was he was the last man standing (so to speak)

Plus, once again, the RAN and its people's wishes are ignored, with the push for Gallipoli or Jervis Bay apparently not even considered by the politicians.

I'm truly fed up with decisions like this done for a politician's vanity, as I watched the PM gloat over this decision.

That said, I wish the ship fair winds and calm seas, and wait to see her in December.

i was shocked at the announcement.... i would have loved to see HMAS Gallipoli but well with his recent passing on it the PM and the defence minister went for the sympathy vote with the name HMAS Choules :mad:

personally i think the chiefs and pollies should pick a few names and let the officers and men who are NOT of flag rank vote on the name and thie most voted name is given to the ship! that way the men and their wishes can be acknowledged

[Rob Hoole]

A fitting tribute to the last representative of a generation that saw naval service in both world wars. The joint-RN/RAN connection is especially appropriate and reflects the magnificent response of Australia and the other countries of the then British Empire to a common threat.

[Jackaroo]

A fitting tribute to the last representative of a generation that saw naval service in both world wars. The joint-RN/RAN connection is especially appropriate and reflects the magnificent response of Australia and the other countries of the then British Empire to a common threat.

Well said Rob

[bbragg2]

At least it is better than HMAS WYATT EARP, HMAS LOLITA, HMAS TATTOO, HMAS THREE CHEERS!! We got off lightly!!

[ludsie]

I agree rob well said

Trent

[Rob Hoole]

As an ex-Minewarfare & Clearance Diving Officer, I was fascinated by this snippet (http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/ex-rn-ship-to-be-named-after-last-wwi-vet-20110813-1irve.html) about Claude Choules:



...As the acting torpedo officer at Fremantle, Mr Choules disposed of the first German mine to wash up on Australian soil during WWII, near Esperance, on WA's south coast...

I don't think it's general knowledge that German mines were laid off Australia in both world wars. A friend has a shield (see attachment) commemorating Mine Clearance Service operations by the Acacia Class minesweeping sloop HMS Mallow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Mallow_%281915%29) off Australia and New Zealand immediately after the First World War. HMS Mallow was transferred to the RAN in 1919.

[bbragg2]

I really do mind that politicians are sharfting the tradition of the naming of RAN Ships, but what really does piss me off is that no one in Defence will stand up to them, what is CN doing, playing nodding dog. I like RAN ships being named after RAN heroes (Collins class) but to name a ship on a persons longavity is not my cup of tea (or coffee). There are still enough RAN/R heroes, (LEUT Goldsworthy for example), to name ships after!!

[Bundall]

C.P.O. Choules was a resident of Western Australia.
The current Defence Minister hails from there.
Naval Honours, activities and establishments have a long tradition of following the incumbent Minister when such relevant decisions are made.
Think of who were the Defence Ministers when submarine building was established in Adelaide that hitherto had no maritime building experience and the submarine training facilities and Fleet Base West.
The setting up of RAAF Edinburgh comes to mind, no matter that the PC3 Orions have to transit the breadth of the entire country before they arrive at where most of their activities are carried out.
The virtual stripping of Sydney Harbour of Naval as well as commercial shipping activities was the result of them offending the aesthetics of Paul Keating.
Naval operational requirements are much lower down the order of priorities than an opportunity for good old fashioned pork barrelling.
So HMAS Choules has come into being.

[mstary1]

No no no no no. As much as I admire the guy, the decision from the ranks has been one of disbelief.

[Lachlan of Queensland]

No no no no no. As much as I admire the guy, the decision from the ranks has been one of disbelief.

i think everyone is in a bit of disbelief at this choice of name. everyone including most of the RAN top brass expected either Jervis bay or Gallipoli.

and CPO Choules was a mine and torpedo warfare expert not a amphibious or logistics sailor. it would have made more sense to name a mine hunter or one of the OPV's that the RAN are purchasing to replace the survey, patrol and mine hunter vessels after him. just thought id give my 2 cents worth.

[Rob Hoole]

As I said before, it's not meant to commemorate the man but an entire generation of which he was the last man standing.

[Teuchter]

I also think it's an excellent choice for the reasons Rob has already given and for the fact that the ship is ex RN and now RAN as indeed was CPO Choules!

[Lachlan of Queensland]

As I said before, it's not meant to commemorate the man but an entire generation of which he was the last man standing.

i guess you are correct and i do understand what your point is... but i think seeing his bio that naming a mine hunter after him would make more sense

[empiretocommonwealth]

Hi All,

As the POM and the outsider just joining this thread ....

I think the naming of CHOULES is as much symobilic - a tribute to all those that served. Personally I think it's a lovely tribute to a kindly man.

It may be a bit 'sentimental' but put it this way .. we're already REMEMBERING the name ..... would we have done for HMAS Three Cheers?

My great grandfather died in WW1 at the Somme. His widow died some 51 years later - but I think that this ship is even for him in some small way - it's a way of remembering all those that gave that ultimate sacrifice, all those that witnessed the brutality and savagery of WW1 and all those who never let us forget it.

+ Anthony

[Rob Hoole]

Just to clarify matters, Claude Choules was a Torpedoman (pre-TAS Branch). Prior to 1946, the Torpedo Branch (http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Uniform/Torpedo_branch.html#_Toc50714858) was responsible for all things electrical on board ships as well as torpedoes, depth charges & anti-submarine mortars, ASDIC (anti-submarine sonar), mines & minesweeping, etc.

[Bundall]

CPO Choules was apparently known as "Chuckles".
How long will it be before the ship is known as the "Chuckles"?

[Lachlan of Queensland]

CPO Choules was apparently known as "Chuckles".
How long will it be before the ship is known as the "Chuckles"?

well maybe it will be a very happy and cheerful ship :D

[bbragg2]

well maybe it will be a very happy and cheerful ship Yes but no thanks to the self effacing Politicians or gutless Admirals in the RAN! Shame, Shame, Shame!!

[Lachlan of Queensland]

Yes but no thanks to the self effacing Politicians or gutless Admirals in the RAN! Shame, Shame, Shame!!

very true mate... i think that VADM Crane wouldnt allow the name HMAS Choules to be used which is why they named the ship after he was Relieved by VADM Griggs who seems nothing more than a political yes-man. but the decision has been made if we like it or not :mad: :mad: :mad: so im making a joke and the best out of an un-wanted situation :p

[bbragg2]

Yes lACHLAN, I agree on your comments on VADM Crane!! VADM Griggs seems only intent on his getting the job of CDF, so he has just become a yes man to any politician that can further his ambitions, no fingers are safe from his footware!!

[Lachlan of Queensland]

Yes lACHLAN, I agree on your comments on VADM Crane!! VADM Griggs seems only intent on his getting the job of CDF, so he has just become a yes man to any politician that can further his ambitions, no fingers are safe from his footware!!

yes... as much as sailors must respect their Admirals VADM griggs has only ever had 1 sea command compared to 3 sea commands each by VADM Crane and Shalders the previous 2 Chiefs of Navy, the vast majority of Griggs career has been spent in staff appointments, aide-de-camp to the governor of tasmaina and higher command courses in the UK. compared to other recent CN's such as VADM Crane and VADM Shalders who were career sailors who made thier careers and reputations at sea commanding Warships VADM Griggs is a political puppet Chief of Navy who got to Flag rank by "brown-nosing"

[Stokers Son]

Hi All
The name chosen for RFA Largs Bay was decided during the time Russ Crane was Chief of Navy and her new badge was drawn and approved approximately one month before Admiral Crane retired not relieved. As Admiral Griggs has only been in the position of Chief of Navy for four to five weeks and has made no decisions to affect the Navy I hardly see how he can be called political yes-man.
These assumptions are made by a 17 year old school boy trying to make a name for himself, and a boy who can’t decide if he agrees or not. If you read all previous posts you will see he goes with the flow and agrees with what members have post. You should settle down and think out your answers first, you have your whole life ahead of you.
John

[Lachlan of Queensland]

Hi All
The name chosen for RFA Largs Bay was decided during the time Russ Crane was Chief of Navy and her new badge was drawn and approved approximately one month before Admiral Crane retired not relieved. As Admiral Griggs has only been in the position of Chief of Navy for four to five weeks and has made no decisions to affect the Navy I hardly see how he can be called political yes-man.
These assumptions are made by a 17 year old school boy trying to make a name for himself, and a boy who can’t decide if he agrees or not. If you read all previous posts you will see he goes with the flow and agrees with what members have post. You should settle down and think out your answers first, you have your whole life ahead of you.
John

i dont see how ones age detremines their ability or knowledge.. there is currently a 21yr old member of parliment in Australia who earnt his place fair and through being more adept than his older rivals.

well i still think VADM Crane and Shalders are better officers than VADM Griggs! and if you compare their service records with VADM griggs you'll see that they spent their Careers commanding warships while VADM Griggs was in shore and staff postings.

as for the accusation of me "being out to make a name for myself" i find that personally insulting. i came on here to learn and to give my opinion where i believe i have sufficient knowledge to give it.

[Rob Hoole]

...These assumptions are made by a 17 year old school boy trying to make a name for himself, and a boy who can’t decide if he agrees or not. If you read all previous posts you will see he goes with the flow and agrees with what members have post. You should settle down and think out your answers first, you have your whole life ahead of you.
John

Thank you John,

That probably explains a certain inability to comprehend the deeply symbolic nature of a ship being named after the very last survivor of a generation that saw naval service in both world wars.

[Lachlan of Queensland]

Thank you John,

That probably explains a certain inability to comprehend the deeply symbolic nature of a ship being named after the very last survivor of a generation that saw naval service in both world wars.

i agreed that a ship should be named after him.... but i pointed out that his specialty was mines and torpedos. a logistics ship just doesnt suit the legacy he left as one of Australia's pioneers in the field of torpedos and mines. a mine hunter or a sub would have been more appropriate to someone such as Choules.

[Rob Hoole]

i agreed that a ship should be named after him.... but i pointed out that his specialty was mines and torpedos. a logistics ship just doesnt suit the legacy he left as one of Australia's pioneers in the field of torpedos and mines. a mine hunter or a sub would have been more appropriate to someone such as Choules.

You've just proven my point for me. Claude Choules (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-13289607)' specialisation is irrelevant. The significant facts are:

He was the last veteran of both world wars.
He served in the RAN.
However, also see my post #106 (http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1723802&postcount=106).

[Lachlan of Queensland]

You've just proven my point for me. Claude Choules' specialisation is irrelevant. The significant facts are:

He was the last veteran of both world wars.
He served in the RAN.
However, also see my post #106 (http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1723802&postcount=106).

i have gone through the link in ur post #106. very interesting reading i must admit.

what point are you refering to?

[Rob Hoole]

i have gone through the link in ur post #106. very interesting reading i must admit.

what point are you refering to?

The point I made in post #115 (http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1724784&postcount=115) in response to post #113 (http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1724755&postcount=113) and which you quoted in post #116 (http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1724788&postcount=116).

This thread is liable to get rather tedious if I have to repeat myself each time. :)

[Lachlan of Queensland]

The point I made in post #115 (http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1724784&postcount=115) in response to post #113 (http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1724755&postcount=113) and which you quoted in post #116 (http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1724788&postcount=116).

This thread is liable to get rather tedious if I have to repeat myself each time. :)

actually saying the point would have sufficed but ill accept your reply... i understand the sentimentality of the decision dont say i dont.... but the decision did come right out of the wood work.... no one expected it in the service or the public. i had my own opinion and reasons on the name which i thought were valid and there are others like me who dont really agree with the name HMAS Choules

[empiretocommonwealth]

Hi Rob & John,

Absolutely agree with ye.

It's the point that this man served in BOTH World Wars - that he had to go through THAT horror twice - and - that he was the last survivor is to mark the event.

A singular honour he is fully entitled to and a very nice gesture.

Earlier someone mentioned that it would have the nickname Chuckles - my comment to that was if the ship named Indefatigable was nicknamed Indy - as a term of endearment to the ship, what's wrong with HMAS Choules having a nickname Chuckles - it will keep this man's memory alive.

I have found this thread an interesting read and I must thank you both for your comments that I have enjoyed reading so much.

+ Anthony

[RANFAN]

I understand and respect the intension of naming the ship HMAS Choules, the last link between those who served in WW1/2 and being an ex RN sailor to RAN service their are a lot of parallels of service of RFA Largs Bay to HMAS Choules.

Naming ships after people is not something I personally agree within the RAN, it can cause a lot of apprehension in different people and be regarded as a slight on others who have served with remarkable courage and have not been recognised for their service both in wartime and peace.

To commemorate the heritage between the RN and the RAN their has been a number of ships in both navies commissioned as Jervis Bay, HMS Jervis Bay was an Armed Merchant Cruiser (F40) named after the Australian bay, their has also been 2 HMAS Jervis Bay GT203 an ex roll on/roll off ferry plus AKR45 catamaran fast troop transport.

HMAS Choules will be an amphibious support ship for the Canberra class LHD, in her role as a support ship she could have been called HMAS Crusader (AV2767) to revive the name of the Australian Army amphibious operations support ship commission near the end of WW2. There are countless ways this ship could have been called in service with the RAN.

With respects to Mr Choules.

[Dick]

What pendant (hull) number has she been given on the RAN please?

[Brian Wentzell]

Dick: I have seen a picture with the future HMAS Choules sporting the pennant L100.
Brian

[Dick]

Thank you Brian.

You can watch her preparations here:

http://www.nmmc.co.uk/index.php?/justvisiting/webcams/falmouth_harbour_from_the_tower_out_to_sea

[Dick]

That webcam seems to have frozen....here is another:

http://www.kingharryscornwall.co.uk/webcams/falmouth/events_square?live=orca

[Rob Hoole]

Dick: I have seen a picture with the future HMAS Choules sporting the pennant L100.
BrianReportedly, this is part and parcel of the commemoration of the 100th anniversary of the Royal Australian Navy:
RFA Largs Bay (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RFA_Largs_Bay_%28L3006%29)


...Choules will be the second RAN vessel to be named after an enlisted sailor, after the submarine HMAS Sheean. The ship's pennant number will be L100, reflecting the 100th anniverary of the RAN, which ocurred in 2011. Delivery of the ship is expected in late 2011, and commissioning is planned for December 2011.

[elleelmo]

geday,
check out the webcam above.
Looks like HMAS CHOALES has departed it's berth at Falmouth Cornwall.
Might be on it's way here.
cheers

[RANFAN]

geday,
check out the webcam above.
Looks like HMAS CHOALES has departed it's berth at Falmouth Cornwall.
Might be on it's way here.
cheers

Look in the top left hand corner, a bay class is still in the shot from memory she should be sailing about late October for a November commissioning.

[Dick]

She was out in Falmouth Bay yesterday but back in this morning.

Still here now:

http://www.nmmc.co.uk/index.php?/justvisiting/webcams/falmouth_harbour_from_the_tower_out_to_sea

[Paddy54]

In late 1993 the Australian Government offered the landing ship heavy HMAS Tobruk to New Zealand as either a gift or at a low price.

This offer was eventually rejected by the New Zealand Government in 1994 on the grounds of the ship's high operating costs and uncertain delivery date

From Wikipedia site of Charles Upham VC & Bar.

:eek:

[RANFAN]

In late 1993 the Australian Government offered the landing ship heavy HMAS Tobruk to New Zealand as either a gift or at a low price.

This offer was eventually rejected by the New Zealand Government in 1994 on the grounds of the ship's high operating costs and uncertain delivery date

From Wikipedia site of Charles Upham VC & Bar.

:eek:

If memory serves me HMAS Tobruk was offered and they spares deal was that they could have for nothing which was at the time estimated around 3/5 million mark, I could be wrong but is were something like that. If the Kiwis took up the offer wonder what we would have now knowing labour then slashing defence probably would have nothing.

One could only imagine what the ADF would have looked like now if the ALP bought 3 Whidbey Island class LSD instead of the Newport class boats and we off loaded Tobruk to the kiwis.
3 Whidbey Island class plus to Canberra LHD or pending on how they went we may have ended up replacing with San Antonio LPD wishful thinking on my part.

[BlackBat242]

More likely this is all you could have afforded:
Thomaston class dock landing ship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomaston_class_dock_landing_ship)

Commissioned 1954-57, LSD-28/29/30/31/35 decommissioned 1984-85, and struck 24 Feb 1992.

USS Spiegel Grove (LSD-32) commissioned in 1956 and decommissioned and struck in 1989, was sunk as an artificial reef 2002.

LSD-33/34 were decommissioned 1989/90 and immediately sold to Brazil.


Or:
Raleigh class amphibious transport dock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raleigh_class_amphibious_transport_dock)

LPD-1 commissioned 1962, decommissioned 1991
LPD-2 commissioned 1963, decommissioned 1992

[RANFAN]

More likely this is all you could have afforded:
Thomaston class dock landing ship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomaston_class_dock_landing_ship)

Commissioned 1954-57, LSD-28/29/30/31/35 decommissioned 1984-85, and struck 24 Feb 1992.

USS Spiegel Grove (LSD-32) commissioned in 1956 and decommissioned and struck in 1989, was sunk as an artificial reef 2002.

LSD-33/34 were decommissioned 1989/90 and immediately sold to Brazil.


Or:
Raleigh class amphibious transport dock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raleigh_class_amphibious_transport_dock)

LPD-1 commissioned 1962, decommissioned 1991
LPD-2 commissioned 1963, decommissioned 1992


What we could afford and what government will fund are 2 very different things, we only bought the ex Newport’s for some for $64 million I believe but spent over $400 million rebuilding them hardly value for money in my opinion, but they did serve us well for a converted ship type.

With 3 Whidbey Island class purchased at the time we would not be in the crap we are in now.

[BlackBat242]

You could theoretically have had them for ~Au$169 million each base cost per ship in 1988... making for Au$507 million total for the 3.

Au$1 = US$0.881 in December 1988, and between .77 and .68 $US in 1992, with an average of .75 for most of the year (the low was in December).

This means ~Au$199 million each in 1995... and a little less for the CV version.

Name________Number__Builder___Cost___Ordered Commissioned
Whidbey Island LSD-41__Lockheed $339 M _ 1981 _ 1985 (includes lead ship charges, laid down 1981)
Germantown __ LSD-42__Avondale $304 M _ 1982 _ 1986 (includes lead ship charges)
Fort McHenry __ LSD-43__Lockheed $272 M _ 1983 _ 1987
Gunston Hall __ LSD-44__Avondale $167 M _ 1984 _ 1989
Comstock _____ LSD-45__Avondale $153 M _ 1984 _ 1990
Tortuga ______ LSD-46__Avondale $153 M _ 1984 _ 1990
Rushmore _____LSD-47__Avondale $149 M _ 1985 _ 1991
Ashland ______LSD-48__Avondale $149 M _ 1985 _ 1992 (laid down 1988)


The 4 "cargo variant" versions were built as follows:
Harpers Ferry __ LSD-49 __ Avondale Shipyard $157 M _ 1988 _ 1995 ($324.2 including lead ship charges, laid down 1991)
Carter Hall ____ LSD-50 __ Avondale Shipyard $128 M _ 1989 _ 1995
Oak Hill ______ LSD-51 __ Avondale Shipyard $135 M _ 1991 _ 1996
Pearl Harbor ___ LSD-52 _ Avondale Shipyard $258 M _ 1993 _ 1998 (laid down 1995)

[RANFAN]

You could theoretically have had them for ~Au$169 million each base cost per ship in 1988... making for Au$507 million total for the 3.

Au$1 = US$0.881 in December 1988, and between .77 and .68 $US in 1992, with an average of .75 for most of the year (the low was in December).

This means ~Au$199 million each in 1995... and a little less for the CV version.

Name________Number__Builder___Cost___Ordered Commissioned
Whidbey Island LSD-41__Lockheed $339 M _ 1981 _ 1985 (includes lead ship charges, laid down 1981)
Germantown __ LSD-42__Avondale $304 M _ 1982 _ 1986 (includes lead ship charges)
Fort McHenry __ LSD-43__Lockheed $272 M _ 1983 _ 1987
Gunston Hall __ LSD-44__Avondale $167 M _ 1984 _ 1989
Comstock _____ LSD-45__Avondale $153 M _ 1984 _ 1990
Tortuga ______ LSD-46__Avondale $153 M _ 1984 _ 1990
Rushmore _____LSD-47__Avondale $149 M _ 1985 _ 1991
Ashland ______LSD-48__Avondale $149 M _ 1985 _ 1992 (laid down 1988)


The 4 "cargo variant" versions were built as follows:
Harpers Ferry __ LSD-49 __ Avondale Shipyard $157 M _ 1988 _ 1995 ($324.2 including lead ship charges, laid down 1991)
Carter Hall ____ LSD-50 __ Avondale Shipyard $128 M _ 1989 _ 1995
Oak Hill ______ LSD-51 __ Avondale Shipyard $135 M _ 1991 _ 1996
Pearl Harbor ___ LSD-52 _ Avondale Shipyard $258 M _ 1993 _ 1998 (laid down 1995)



Funny that hey,
When they first talked about replacing HMAS Jervis Bay with helicopter support/training ship they bulk at the price around $500 million and told to find something cheaper, works out they spent the same amount in the end with repairing the cheaper alternative (Newport’s).RAN advised government not to buy the bl%$y thing’s in the first place, pollies sticking their head in thing when the should stay out of it.

It’s the old saying you get what you pay for!!!!

Buy the way where did you find all that information.

[BlackBat242]

The RAN did get 2 ships for that ~$500 million, not 1... but it took a long time to get them in service and they sure didn't last long.

I think that if the Aussie MOD had had any idea of what the final cost would be (like, if they had listened to the RAN instead of the US Defense Reutilization and Marketing Service salesmen) they would have perhaps ordered one LSD-41 or LSD(CV)-49 class ship... since they had wanted to spend no more than ~$200 million total for everything.

The costs (except for that for LSD-49) came from the Federation of American Scientists entries for each class:
LSD-41 Whidbey Island class (http://www.fas.org/programs/ssp/man/uswpns/navy/amphibious/lsd41.html)
LSD-49 Harpers Ferry class (http://www.fas.org/programs/ssp/man/uswpns/navy/amphibious/lsd49.html)

LSD-49 initial cost is from US Navy fact file: Landing Dock Ship (http://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_display.asp?cid=4200&ct=4&tid=1000).

The exchange rate is from http://www.tradingeconomics.com/australia/currency... just enter the dates you are looking for.

[kev]

Being a serving sailor on Tobruk and also being the berthing party when Manoora first came to Sydney, I think it is about time the pollies started listening to the RAN and maybe taking on board what we have to say. Hopefully Choules will be money well spent, because Manoora and Kanimbla certainly were not. As for poor old Tubby she will sail again, if only through sheer will power from those of us sick of being alongside all the time.

[RANFAN]

Being a serving sailor on Tobruk and also being the berthing party when Manoora first came to Sydney, I think it is about time the pollies started listening to the RAN and maybe taking on board what we have to say. Hopefully Choules will be money well spent, because Manoora and Kanimbla certainly were not. As for poor old Tubby she will sail again, if only through sheer will power from those of us sick of being alongside all the time.

Looks like RFA Mounts Bay (L3008) appears to be heading in for refit with Nuship Choules in the back ground ready for her trip back to oz.

Yes another person on another forum commented when he first saw the ex Newport’s come into Sydney Harbour for the first time almost cried when he saw the condition of them.

Tobroken must really be on her last legs having to serve out more time till the LHD arrive, just hope that RAN give them their (LHD) refits as required and not send them out till its done keep putting them off and let their material state suffer from overwork.

http://www.nmmc.co.uk/index.php?/justvisiting/webcams/falmouth_harbour_from_the_tower_out_to_sea

[RANFAN]

Has ADF Ship Choules left and heading to Freo all ready, cannot see her in Falmouth Harbour on web cam!!!

From memory she is to be commissioned on December 9, is that still the plan?

here we go some live tracking.

http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/default.aspx?oldmmsi=503688000&zoom=10&olddate=11/6/2011%207:03:00%20AM

[Paddy54]

ADF Choules has left South Africa.

video.defence.gov.au/Switch.aspx

Appears to be only one Mexeiflote shipped on the deck and not slung alongside?

Hanger is a wee bit small & lightly constructed?


Did the UK refit address the issue of air-conditioning for use in the tropics?

Apparently the remainder of the UK 'Bay Class' have had alterations done to the exhaust stacks. Has this been undertaken for 'Choules"?

Overall a good purchase but probably requiring a series of equipment upgrades before it's fully capable for Pacific Ocean duties.

As usual the crew will just have to wear the heat & restrictions on potable water. :rolleyes:

[RANFAN]

ADF Choules has left South Africa.

video.defence.gov.au/Switch.aspx

Appears to be only one Mexeiflote shipped on the deck and not slung alongside?

Hanger is a wee bit small & lightly constructed?


Did the UK refit address the issue of air-conditioning for use in the tropics?

Apparently the remainder of the UK 'Bay Class' have had alterations done to the exhaust stacks. Has this been undertaken for 'Choules"?

Overall a good purchase but probably requiring a series of equipment upgrades before it's fully capable for Pacific Ocean duties.

As usual the crew will just have to wear the heat & restrictions on potable water. :rolleyes:



From my understanding their has been no major modification done to Choules except for Australianising communication’s equipment and so forth and also led to believe the air-conditioning has been upgraded to serve better in the hotter climate of the Pacific.

Another source has the hanger being left up for the time being I imagine that will only last till the first LHD arrives. With the new MRH-90 helicopter have trouble and making its way onto the list project of concern, Blackhawks will be the first to venture onto Choules I would imagine
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/national/mayday-call-for-choppers/story-e6freooo-1226203088026

[Alan D]

Having read the Chief Engineer's Supersession Report and being an ex Fleet Staff WOMT in the days of Westralia, Protector, Wallaroo and Bandicoot, let me assure you this bucket of problems makes the earlier mentioned vessels to be absolute gems!

[RANFAN]

Having read the Chief Engineer's Supersession Report and being an ex Fleet Staff WOMT in the days of Westralia, Protector, Wallaroo and Bandicoot, let me assure you this bucket of problems makes the earlier mentioned vessels to be absolute gems!

As Pauline Hanson would say “please explain”

From the inspection said she was supposed to be in good reasonable material state , apart from the article HMAS lemon scented which was taken to be blown out of proportion, with her first refit undertaken in the UK addressed these concerns from what I am led to believe.
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/the-navys-newest-100-million-amphibious-ship-has-been-tagged-hmas-lemon-scented/story-fn6b3v4f-1226103114398

[Three Mike Port]

Having read the Chief Engineer's Supersession Report and being an ex Fleet Staff WOMT in the days of Westralia, Protector, Wallaroo and Bandicoot, let me assure you this bucket of problems makes the earlier mentioned vessels to be absolute gems!

Completely agree. Having read the report myself, my jaw dropped. As an ex MT(L) who has been through many refits, I can read between the lines and see all the stuff that has been lightly glossed over that is actually quite serious and expensive to fix.

We will be spending hundreds and hundreds of millions on this tub, the purchasing decision of this ship was all political and should never have happened.

The report can be found here:

http://www.ran-skilledhands.org/gallery/albums/userpics/10021/Largs_Bay.pdf

[Alan D]

On the Supersession Letter there are 21 items highlighted, I have listed 6 of them as follows:
1. Unable to maintain full speed due to overheating of propulsion motors
2. Main fire pumps experience severe water hammer on start up causing joint or pipework failure in the firemain system.
3. Air compressors poorly sited in Engine Room, not capable of supplying larges volumes of air to operate hand tools or inflate Yokahama Fenders .
4. Boiler water and chilled water circuits do not have any form of chemical treatment, degradation of system piping and boiler internals anticipated (shades of Tobruk).
5. Air handling units operate under a vacuum which prevents condensate being drained out. This has the potential to cause respiratory problems including Legionnaires Disease.
6. Vehicle lift hydraulic plant very hot when used for extended periods in high ambient temperatures.

The vessel was designed to operate in temperate sea water conditions not what the operating envelope here is. So there may be other problems with A/C's and machinery cooling systems also.

I am more than sceptical when it comes to either the RAN or DMO stating what a good purchase we have made, they don't have a good track record. No one sells you a used vessel especially a First of Class that does not have a myriad of problems unless you are prepared to spend BIG money so it has all the improvements made to the last vessel in the Class.

[BlackBat242]

On the Supersession Letter there are 21 items highlighted, I have listed 6 of them as follows:

4. Boiler water and chilled water circuits do not have any form of chemical treatment, degradation of system piping and boiler internals anticipated (shades of Tobruk).

Um... not to question the reports or anything, but as she has 4 diesel engines and no boilers in her propulsion plant, just what boilers is that report talking about?

[Alan D]

Auxiliary boilers are used for:
1. Heating main engine lub oil before it goes through the lub oil centrifuges as part of of the main engine warm through prior to start up, similarly for the main engine fresh water circuit.
2. Heating cold fresh water for the domestic hot fresh water system.
3. If the main engines do not burn F76, increasing the viscosity of the Heavy Fuel Oil prior to filtration and injection.
4. In some ships used as part of the HVAC system for warming fresh circulating air in cold climates throughout accomodation and office spaces.

[ASSAIL]

Auxiliary boilers are used for:
1. Heating main engine lub oil before it goes through the lub oil centrifuges as part of of the main engine warm through prior to start up, similarly for the main engine fresh water circuit.
2. Heating cold fresh water for the domestic hot fresh water system.
3. If the main engines do not burn F76, increasing the viscosity of the Heavy Fuel Oil prior to filtration and injection.
4. In some ships used as part of the HVAC system for warming fresh circulating air in cold climates throughout accomodation and office spaces.

Alan, You need to go back and read the refit work from A&P Falmouth and explore the other forums re Choules.
These are excellent ships and the RN/RFA were very sorry to see her go.
The ship is "new", two trans ocean deployments, both in the tropics and then back for her first refit and type of class modifications building on the work done on Mounts Bay. You cannot compare her with other less fortunate purchases by the RAN. Give the Brits some credit for knowing how to build a warship. She meets all Lloyds and IMO criteria which is more than most waries.
You were a diesel rate who had extensive experience of Attack class PB's so you should be aware of "teething probs" (don't mention HMAS Cook which was a dog before those teething problems were sorted). You should also be aware of the scope of defects in many good ships from your time in FMU.
The ship has just completed a FOST workup in Portland and almost immediately sailed for Capetown, 2 days stopover, and then departed for Freo so most machinery must be working well.
There is a member of her ship's company who discusses her performance on another forum and although we have not heard from him since sailing, he's had nothing but praise for her.
We've got a coup and the RN are pi**ed off. Let's enjoy her.
Cheers Chris

[brian james]

As in prior 'great purchases' from yesteryear,...the proof is in the pudding..Wait and see how she performs here....In the past an 'independent' Marine Surveyor who is actually willing to put his name to the documentation was always nowhere to be found when severe discrepencies 'suddenly appeared' in the Physical and Operational capabilities of these 'tubs' that were purchased in the past....Brian

[ASSAIL]

Brian, I can't let that go to the keeper. There are no comparable purchases from yesteryear. This ship is near new. The closest comparable purchase was HMAS Supply who was built for OZ and leased to the RFA for 7 years before being handed over, all other ships metioned in this thread are irrelevant for various reasons. Even though Supply was used to the max and the RFA knew that they had no long term commitment to the ship, she proved to be a sturdy and reliable workhorse for decades.
Can we please get over the fairfax county disaster (a political cockup) and move on.

[astraltrader]

Alan, You need to go back and read the refit work from A&P Falmouth and explore the other forums re Choules.
These are excellent ships and the RN/RFA were very sorry to see her go.
The ship is "new", two trans ocean deployments, both in the tropics and then back for her first refit and type of class modifications building on the work done on Mounts Bay. You cannot compare her with other less fortunate purchases by the RAN. Give the Brits some credit for knowing how to build a warship. She meets all Lloyds and IMO criteria which is more than most waries.
You were a diesel rate who had extensive experience of Attack class PB's so you should be aware of "teething probs" (don't mention HMAS Cook which was a dog before those teething problems were sorted). You should also be aware of the scope of defects in many good ships from your time in FMU.
The ship has just completed a FOST workup in Portland and almost immediately sailed for Capetown, 2 days stopover, and then departed for Freo so most machinery must be working well.
There is a member of her ship's company who discusses her performance on another forum and although we have not heard from him since sailing, he's had nothing but praise for her.
We've got a coup and the RN are pi**ed off. Let's enjoy her.
Cheers Chris


A post that echoes my beliefs.

For the money I believe the RAN has got a fine ship that will end up providing both good value and long service.