What Value is Placed on Medals

[kersim]

Hi All,

I recently obtained 3 new medals for my Grandfathers RAN service. He was enlisted in RN 1933 - 1952 (48-52 in RFR) and RAN 52-60.

(this is probably going to be a multi pronged question)...

It got me to thinking, what value should be placed on medals and how is this value estimated? I'm guessing that an original singular issue 39-45 star, for example, would be worth less than say the same medal in a group that has a name engraved on one of the (other) medals. I also imagine that the higher the "rank" of an award the higher its price and the rarer the award, again the higher the price...

From my (limited) research in to medals, I gather that each medal has a 3 prices... The first is always priceless (my own and my wife's medals are invaluable to us), the second is market value and the third is the insurance value. How does one go about estimating insurance value on medals?

As part of this post, I would love it if someone could point me in the direction of valuing medal sets for insurance purposes (and / or indeed market value) - particularly for my Grandfathers collection. For info; he was awarded the following as JX 140428 W.R Oultram

NGSM - Clasps Palestine 1936-39 & SE Asia 1945-46 (engraved with above info plus O.SMN RN)
39-45 Star
Atlantic Star
Africa Star
Italy Star
Burma Star
War Medal 39-45


As R41518 in the RAN he was awarded;

Australian Active Service Medal (Clasp Malaya)
Australian Service Medal (FESR)
Australian Defence Medal


These were the three I obtained recently on his behalf and all are engraved with his details. I haven't put his group all together yet but I have attached photos of all his original medals for reference...

I have loved reading these posts as the research that I have undertaken into my grandfathers RN/RAN service (and other grandfathers Army service) has got me interested in medals and medal collection.

Thanks, in advance for any comments and I also realise that the opinions will probably differ from person to person.

Cheers

kersim

[Odin]

You are right with many of your initial comments

Yes an unnamed 1939-45 Star is not as valuable as a medal in a group that can be attributed to someone. The higher the rank generally the more valuable the medal would be (a medal to an Admiral is significantly scarer than the same medal to an Able Seaman - example the Naval General Service Medal for Persian Gulf 1909 -1914 there are only 3 medals to Rear Admirals but 1353 to ABs and 951 to Stokers). And again some medals are much scarcer than others and hence worth more - your NGS has the clasps Palestine 1936-39 (13,600 issued) and SE Asia 1945-46 (approx 2,000 issued) - so for two medals with just each of these as a single bar, one with SE Asia 1945-46 is worth around twice as much as one for Palestine 1936-39

In terms of value the basic British medals:
39-45 Star, Atlantic Star, Africa Star, Italy Star, Burma Star, War Medal 39-45
That is a typical Naval group where someone has served most of the war away from the UK in various theatres around the world (no Defence Medal so didn't clock up three years in the UK area). The most valuable of the stars is the Atlantic Star which is worth around £30, the others sell for between £10 - £15 with perhaps a little more for a Burma Star. The War Medal comes out at under £10 - the whole group, as unnamed medals, would be less than £100.

Then you add in the named NGS and it all changes - nice to have both pre and post WWII service - and the SE Asia Bar ties in with the Burma Star which possibly he earned towards the end of the war and was still there for the SE Asia campaign. Plus NGSs with more than one bar are not so common and the SE Asia bar is relatively scarce (you don't see that many on sale).

So realistically I would say that a group of the UK medals would be sold for somewhere in the region of £450 to £500, assuming they are in reasonable condition.

Unfortunately I can't help much with the Australian awards as they are outside my area of knowledge. Looking through a catalogue I would guess something like £300 for the three making a total for the whole group of just under £800. But the combination of both the UK and Australian awards must be uncommon and that may add further to their value.

You are right that the medals are worth considerably more as family heirlooms and cannot easily be priced. For insurance purposes I would suggest that would be slightly more than the market value because they are irreplaceable But the problem with normal household insurance is that it doesn't always cover 'special items' such as medals. So often you need to get a proper insurance valuation which will cost you something like 1% of the value of the item.

Hope that helps a bit

Forgot to say the most important thing: that is a very nice group of medals you have there

[qprdave]

Just a very personal opinion.

I fail to see why medals should be of value to anyone who didn't earn them. Medals are a personal thing to the recipient and their families. I feel that having, in my possession. medals that someone else earned that didn't belong to a member of my family would give me no pleasure whatsoever and, of course, a lighter bank account because I have given my hard earned money to some relative of a brave man/woman who have no interest except making money on that family member's death.

I must admit that a lot of medals were sold by the recipient who came upon hard times. That is a sad reflection on the Country, not looking after our war veterans.

Dave

[Odin]

Fair enough but I could ask why do people collect anything?

Personally a lot of paintings do very little for me, I can't get my head around a lot of modern sculptures which some 'expert' tells me are exceptional pieces of work. Modern stamps and coins are increasingly churned out by governments as a means of making more cash. I have no desire to shoot or injury people so guns and weapons don't tick the right boxes for me. However I've always been interested in British History and medals are a way of getting involved with that. They can act as a catalyst for researching what we as a nation got up to in the past. It is not all good stuff, some campaigns do leave a nasty taste in your mouth. But we shouldn't be guilty of judging 19th Century actions with 21st Century morality.

But the key thing with British Medals, unlikely many of those issued by other countries, including the US, is that the majority bear the name of the man who won it. Plus many British Medals are actually well produced and designed (many being made in silver). This is not the case for many countries including NATO and UN issues - a young child might even be tempted to think he can peel the outer layer off to find the chocolate inside! Now with better availabilty of records in the UK, research allows you to find out more about the individual whose medal you have in your collection. Sometimes the individual almost comes to life through what you can find out.

As a collector I do believe medals should stay with families as part of their background, but increasing younger people have little or no interest in history and see medals as a ready disposable asset which they flog off as quickly as they can. Yes some servicemen disposed of their medals because of hardship but many were quite happy to part with them for the price of a couple of beers. As an example I had a work colleague who served in Malaya as a National Serviceman. He happily sold his GSM for £0.25 while he was still serving in Malaya. In later life he had no regrets about that. I have some family medals and personnally I would not like to see them go out of the family. Future generations may take a different view but I won't be around to worry about that.

We all like to think we are immortal but of course we are not. But I have medals to ordinary men who are long dead and yet they have achieved some form of immortally because there is a medal collector out there interested in him and what he did. I have just been working on researching a Royal Humane Society Medal to a farm labourer who saved an old man from drowning in 1871. To me that man, Henry Andrews, has achieved that immortality because I'm still interested in him.

Each to his own but I can assure you Medal Collecting can be quite addictive. Fortunately I have long passed the point of trying to buy all I see and just concentrate on specific small areas of collecting.

As a post script: I once worked with a guy who collected luggage labels. These were the small printed labels that you stuck on your luggage when you made a journey. They usually had the station you started from printed on them so if your luggage was lost they had somewhere to send it back to. All the ones actually used were not collectable because they had been glued to cases. So collectors went for those that had never been used even. My colleague was really into this and showed me a book he had written on the subject. By the time he had finished explaining, although it wasn't for me, I could understand why it was of interest to him and others. So if you ever find a nice example of a luggage label for Twerton Station (near Bath - closed just after WWI) in good condition, it is worth around £200 (for a small square of paper!!!). As I said each to his own.

[INVINCIBLE]

Well said ODIN !
I am most certainly not a medal collector but I do enjoy reading and learning about them on this forum. At the risk of going against the views of a Mod, though I know Dave will respect my right to different views, I can well understand why people collect medals in the same way that some people collect various items of militaria. I took my grandson to visit the Royal Marines Museum at Eastney at half term and though I have visited the museum many times I am always impressed by the most amazing medal collection there. Rack upon rack, rows of draws with a vast array of medals. Medals are indeed both personal and part of our history. I was even able to answer his question as to why some of the VCs had blue ribbons and some maroon (navy & army until combined and all maroon after1918).
I think we are fortunate to have ODIN on this forum answering the various questions being raised on naval medals, with all his expertise and I do hope he will continue to provide that service.

[qprdave]

Odin, Invincible.

Thanks for your reply.

I assure you that me being a Mod has nothing to do with my own personal opinion. I am sure that I am in the minority. Of course, Odin has given us all information about Medals and, I for one, am very grateful for that.

I thank you for not giving a diatribe answering my post. I do believe in free speech, within reason, in this forum and will look forward for more information that, I'm sure, will come our way and long may that carry on.

I suppose that, as a collector, one tends to try and learn more about the topic of their interest and we should be grateful for that as eventually it will trickle down to here.

Dave

[davidrn]

I did like the Twerton Station near Bath, Twerton whic is in that Bath boundry was postal as "Twerton on Avon".
My father was born there.
As a medal collector I must agree with Odin. Just look through the various posts throughout this forum.

Regards Dave

[jainso31]

One very important ingredient in making an evaluation of a group of medals,
quite few of which are unnamed; and that is provenence ie.proof of entitlement, without which, the value of the whole, becomes a sum of the parts.

jainso31

[kersim]

Thanks all for the posts and in particular to odin for your words of wisdom - got a bit off topic there for a bit but good reading nonetheless. It seems that you are held in high regards on this forum particularly when it comes to medals.

I did forget to mention that the 2 Australian service medals are not the current versions of these 2 medals (i.e. the were issued for Australian service from post WWII up to 1975) My Australian Service medal is green whereas my Grandfathers has blue & purples - well on the ribbon (riband) anyway!

No doubt like many families around the world, medals (and other service items) are a contentious issue in our family as to who should "have" them since my grandfathers death. This has lead to me only having bits a pieces of his past service information - though I have a complete list of his RN and RAN postings but do not have any records of his entitlement for these awards except the Palestine Clasp for the NGSM (I am not doubting his integrity at all btw nor am I implying anyone else does). His postings seem to match specific areas of operations during his service and correspond to historical records for entitlement to these awards. I do however think he may also be entitled to a LSGC medal but have not looked into this any further at present.

@ Jainso31, from my limited research I have not doubts about provenance and that he is indeed entitled to them and can understand the importance of this in value and indeed integrity (not that I am implying you thought otherwise). My other Grandfathers Australian Pacific Group is not named but I have "proof" that he was indeed entitled to and awarded them.

To me both my grandfathers groups are invaluable and indeed irreplaceable even though one has 10 in his group and the other 4. Similarly my own and my wife's medals - I have 2 and she has 3 (although she has 2 clasp on her ASM) - Does a family group (such as 2 x Grandfathers + Husband and Wife) add more value or is each group valued on their own merits...???

Great stuff guys and thanks again. :)

[astraltrader]

Sorry I have only just read this thread!

Generally I agree with Odin and his valuations EXCEPT for his comments in the last paragraph of his first post.

Speaking as an Antiques Dealer with 30 years experience - as a rule valuation for insurance purposes only usually is nearly always at least twice [and often even more] than the figure you could expect to realistically receive at say auction.

Also the auction figure is quite often 30%+ higher than the figure you would be offered by an Antique dealer who probably buys much of his stock from the auctions in the first place.

I have had much dealing with all sorts of valuations offered by Auction houses - much of it unimpressive to say the least. If you seriously wish to get the best price at Auction I would seriously advise insisting on adding at least a third to the figure they suggest you put on your item[s] as a reserve price. If it doesn`t sell then [they nearly always try to get you to agree to an unrealistically low valuation] you can always lower it at the following auction].

Since becoming a moderator in the forum I have deliberately chosen to stay out of discussions on the value of items like medals and other collectables, although I will always willingly and freely give my opinion on any antique or collectables whether on value or just for general information but only by PM or e-mail.

It always should be remembered that this forum we all greatly enjoy is paid for by the generosity of a naval-art business owner, so other transactions/threads involving business or even valuations should ideally be conducted privately between members initially by PM and then preferably by exchange of emails.

This ties in exactly with our policy of removing instantly any items of spam that appear in the forum.

This does not in anyway imply criticism of Kersims post or any of Odins replies. Odins considerable knowledge of medals is always of great interest. :)

[Brett Hendey]

I agree with Odin's comments about medal collecting. I collect medals (and related items) of men who have a connection with the province of South Africa where I live. Apart from information that might come with the medals, the named medals allow for sometimes very detailed research to be undertaken on the person concerned in archives and elsewhere. The research I have done has been mostly on men from the lower ranks whose unremarkable lives were not recorded in books and who have been forgotten, even by their families. Some of the biographies are simple and short, but others record a surprising amount of detail about the lives of ordinary men and the times when they lived. Their stories reflect the history of Natal, which is now sadly being rewritten.

The medals in my collection will eventually move on to other collectors and they will take with them a little or a lot about the man concerned, thereby keeping alive a memory of him and the province where he lived as it used to be.

Regards
Brett