Torpedo 8 Squadron at Midway

[jainso31]

Heroism was not enough; but what really were the causes of the loss of this
USN unit at the Battle of Midway?

jainso31





http://www.navy.mil/midway/midway_3_TORPEDO%20SQ%208.html

[Tiornu]

It's pretty straightforward. The Devastators and Avengers that they flew were not capable of defending themselves against the swarms of fighters they faced. The one factor that occasionally gets overlooked is the restrictions imposed by the fragile torpedo they used.
This occurred around the same time as the Channel Dash, when a flight of Swordfish was wiped out to a man. The torpedo in that case did not limit the aircraft, but the Swordfish had enough limitations of its own.

[jainso31]

Hi Tiornu
Yes it was a cardinal error to send in the lumbering Dauntless aircraft without fighter cover-with an adequate CAP they might have had some chance of dropping their unpredictable torpedoes. Were they sacrificed to meet the objective of a hidden agenda?

[Tiornu]

It's easy to get the Dauntlesses confused with the Devastators. Maybe I should use SBD and TBD...but that's pretty similar, too. Oh well.
There was a fundamental difference between the approach to carrier strikes as practiced by the IJN and USN. The IJN believed in precision in the organization of its strikes. You might not get a lot of punches in, so you wanted each one to be as coordinated as possible. The USN believed that you needed to beat the enemy to the punch, because each attack could be decisive. Trying to avoid caricature, I'll say that the Americans emphasized speed while the Japanese emphasized precision. You can look at Midway and decide for yourself which approach was the better choice.
The fact is that the Americans went all the way through the war without ever getting its carrier strikes totally coordinated, and certainly at this early date, disorganization was the rule. In fact, it was especially apparent at Midway due to disagreements among the air commanders. I don't know what hidden agenda could be imagined, but there was nothing secret here. It was just the chaotic result that you'd naturally expect from a doctrine that willingly sacrificed coordination in hopes of landing a "haymaker."

[Don Boyer]

The TBD Devastator was an inadequate aircraft for the job at hand, one step removed from it's biplane predecessor. Slow, not very maneuverable with a torpedo on board, even if covered by fighters they stood little chance.

One thing often overlooked is that the shortcomings of the aircraft were quite apparent to those who flew it, and the naval aviation community in general. The TBM was on the way, but just not in hand in time to deploy with the carriers. Even they would have had problems, but only due to the totally inadequate torpedo foisted on the navy by the Bureau of Ordnace and a pre-war penny-pinching Congress.

Yet, with its shortcomings known to all, no man on any of the carriers refused to saddle up and go to war in it.

[Tiornu]

Midway was the TBF's debut in combat, and it did no better than the TBD. Only one TBF survived the battle, and I think it was so shot up that it was written off. Whatever superiority the TBF had, it was loaded with the same torpedo dictating a low and slow approach tp the target.

[jainso31]

I must confeess I did get confused between Dauntless and Devastator; I remembered that they were obsolescent aircraft,certainly unfit for purpose at this stage in the war. The frailty of the torpedoes, I have not as yet, seen a full exposee of their weaknesses.The courage of the aircrews was,of course ;absolutely magnificent;as you said -no question of not flying.I also did not realise the TBF-the Avenger? was debuting.Can you say please, what was the problem(s) with the torpedo.
I thank you both for your comments and interest

jainso31

[Tiornu]

The original Mk 13 torpedo had pathetic drop limits, 110 knots at 50 feet. By war's end, modifications allowed 410 knots at 2400 feet. Quite a change. The British Mk XI torpedo, introduced in 1936, was limited to 150 knots at 100 feet. The torpedo the Japanese used at Pearl Harbor, the Type 91 Mod 1, could manage 250-260 knots and 1000 feet.
Is it time to stop blaming the Devastator? There's no doubt that it was getting old, but keep in mind that prior to Midway not a single Devastator was lost in combat.
Yes, the Avenger first saw combat at Midway...in Torpedo Squadron 8!

[jainso31]

Tiornu
Thank you very much for excellent explanation about the torpedoes being used by the Squadron-they do sound as if they were far from fit for purpose;compared to contemporary British and Japanese types.I assume then that once the Avenger had it's problems sorted out -it became the No1
TBD.

jainso31

[Tiornu]

The Avenger went on to great success, carrying an improved torpedo and under the cover of fighters. I hold the opinion that torpedo planes were obsolescent by 1939. By war's end, we see planes like the Tigercat, Mauler, Firebrand, and Wyvern raising the bar to an entirely new level of performance.

[emason]

The original Mk 13 torpedo had pathetic drop limits, 110 knots at 50 feet. By war's end, modifications allowed 410 knots at 2400 feet. Quite a change. The British Mk XI torpedo, introduced in 1936, was limited to 150 knots at 100 feet. The torpedo the Japanese used at Pearl Harbor, the Type 91 Mod 1, could manage 250-260 knots and 1000 feet.

Interestingly, the Royal Navy's Mk XII torpedo, the one used at Taranto, was manufactured in the USA by E.W. Bliss Company, Brooklyn, New York, and as early as 18 February 1941, approval was being sought to manufacture and fit its duplex pistol into the American 21 and 22.4 inch torpedoes.

Also, in March 1941, a U.S. Navy Torpedo Station report reads, in part, "The British Mark XII torpedo has been broken down and examined carefully. Two machinists have studied the torpedo carefully and have taken it through their entire overhaul routine. The gyro and depth mechanism have been sent to the Gyro Shop for examination and preparation for range firing."

Does anyone know if anything became of this?

[jainso31]

My thanks to tiornu and Bill for their interest and input ie.the development of new aircraft and the question of the British MkXII torpedo and what transpired after the US examination-my bet is that any decision would lie with Admiral King ,who was an Anglophobe.

jainsi31

[Tiornu]

The only people who thought King was an Anglophobe were the British. Everyone else around him was used to his hatred. I'll see if I can find anything on this torpedo connection.

[jainso31]

I genuinely thought via. all that has been written about Adm King's hatred of the British; that it was true. I do hope you can enlighten me about the MkXII torpedo mystery-I've been a good two hours searching the internet without finding anything concrete. I do appreciate your involvement Tiornu.
PS Off thread- my father worked on Tarpons and their torpedoes in the Far east in WW2.
jainso31

[Jim in Annville]

The Dauntless was a dive bomber and the Devastator was a torpedo bomber.

[jainso31]

Thanks for that Jim-were they both built by the Douglas Aircraft Coy.?

jainso31

[Tiornu]

Yes, the "D" in TBD (Devastator) and SBD (Dauntless) indicates the Douglas company.
Admiral King's daughter made an interesting comment about her father, which I will probably butcher somewhat: "He's very even-tempered. He's always angry."
I've looked through all the material I have at hand, and I can't find anything on the connection with the Mk XII. I found one reference online citing a primary source document, which I don't have.

[jainso31]

Many thanks Tiornu for your efforts.
"he's very even tempered,He's always angry" what a wonderful play on words or pure Abbott and Costello.
PS I thought D was for Dive.
jainso31

[Tiornu]

Just off the top of my head, I don't recall there ever being a "dive bomber" rating for the USN's aircraft. There was "B" for Bomber, which was sometimes coupled with another designator such as "S" for Scout (SBD, SBC, SB2U, SB2C, etc) or "T" for Torpedo (TBD, TBF/TBM, etc). The plane that the Dauntless evolved from was simply BT-1. There's no "S" because it wasn't designated as a scout, and there's no "D" because the plane came from the Northrup company before it was taken over by Douglas. Why does "T" stand for Northrup? The same reason "F" stands for Grumman--just because.

[jainso31]

That settles that I guess or does it-I thought F for Grumman was a pearl.

jainso31

[Tiornu]

I believe "G" went to Great Lakes, a company that folded in the 1930's...?

[jainso31]

To return to the thread can you say what the top speed ratio was Zero/TBD
and what sort of flying formation did the TBDs adopt.?

[Tiornu]

I don't know about the formations they used. I'm guessing you can find the speed information easily enough online. Just keep in mind that the TBD will need to observe the torpedo drop speed. The elderly Swordfish was famously slow, but it would reach speeds of 200mph in the dive toward attack, but then the drop would be below 150 knots, as noted above.

[jainso31]

Tiornu
The link gives a fair appraisal of how the TBDs operated and that their loss was not wholly in vain.Their actions brought about a fatal reaction in IJN fleet movement.

jainso31






http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/midway.htm

[Tiornu]

Fuchida's eyewitness account is an alloy of reality and imagination. I wouldn't take it too seriously. Lord's book has stood up pretty well over the course of time. The recent book by Parshall & Tully, Shattered Sword, is justifiably considered a must-read. It deals firstly with the Japanese perspective, but it also goes into details on the timeline of events in the American's confused first strike.

[jainso31]

OK Tiornu this was snatched at random from the internet-but how much of Fuchida's account is reality and how much is imagination? I used to have Lord's account, but one of my sons got it; and I haven't seen it again.Pity!!
What you did not give, was an opinion on the way the the TBDs attacked; afffected Fuchida's decision to change manoevres.

jainso31

[Tiornu]

I don't have an opinion on the way they attacked, except that they sure had more guts than I do. It's hard to gauge how the level of training (which was not extensive) played a role. The USN doesn't seem to have been very excited about torpedo planes in the late 1930's. For the five years before the TBD entered service, there was just a single torpedo squadron. The TBD then appeared in 1937, and only about 130 were built, and that was the entire USN carrier torpedo force as World War approached.

[jainso31]

The USN were not overly enthusiastic about TBDs -they had 130+and training was pretty sketchy. Along comes Midway- so OK!- we'll let the TBDs open the show- fighter cover -well we can't jeorpardise the Divebomber strike,so they'll just have to go it alone. The TBDs get no strikes and are wiped out; but they have made Fuchida think about further TBD attacks andhe changes his tactics to cover this possibility; and the divebombers strike and their's is deadly.Midway is an amazing success.Cynical? yes it is but the battle is won.

jainso31

[Tiornu]

I don't think we want to give the impression the TBDs were supposed to attack unsupported. It was a matter of poor coordination. For example, Waldron specifically ignored his orders in order to fly directly to the point where he anticipated the Japanese would be. He was absolutely right, but also absolutely alone.

[jainso31]

To quote Lord- "The Incredible Victory" -it surely was-the TBDs disobeyed orders; and in so doing, brought the enemy fighters down to sea level; and so cleared the skies for the divebombers-which attacked with impunity and delivered this crucial victory over a hitherto rampant enemy.INCREDIBLE in
DEED.Many thanks Tiornu.

jainso31

[barryp]

Yes, the "D" in TBD (Devastator) and SBD (Dauntless) indicates the Douglas company.
Admiral King's daughter made an interesting comment about her father, which I will probably butcher somewhat: "He's very even-tempered. He's always angry."
I've looked through all the material I have at hand, and I can't find anything on the connection with the Mk XII. I found one reference online citing a primary source document, which I don't have.

I think the quote was something like "My father was the most even tempered man I ever met: he was in a permanent rage."

[jainso31]

Thank you barryp- for putting the record straight-Tiornu did say he may have mangled the quotation somewhat-but that's fine.

jainso31

[WGVSr]

I did some statistical analysis many years ago and the TBD was the most dangerous USN aircraft to fly on a combat mission during WWII, something approaching a 20% loss ratio. Of course they flew something less than 200 sorties involving contact with the enemy and suffered a loss of 44 a/c. In a related note, I think there are only 3 American pilots left who flew a combat mission off the carriers at Midway since Capt John Adams died back in March, being Capt 'Dusty" Kleiss and Cmdrs Clay Fisher and Bud Merrill. I think they were all Dauntless pilots but I'd have to check that. I seem to remember the last surviving TBD pilot passing away in the '90s.
Bill

[Don Boyer]

For those interested in a fuller story of Torpedo 8 at Midway, with new information, John Parshall and Anthony Tully's "Shattered Sword: The Untold Story of the Battle of Midway" (Potomac Books, Washington, DC, 2005) presents a superbly researched look at that Battle and also comments on Mitsuo Fuchida's account of that battle, treating him with more candor than any previous effort. Bottom line, Fuchida "misrepresented" some aspects of the battle for various reasons, particularly shortly after the war when potential "war criminal" charges were being bandied about by the Allies and hung like a cloud over many a Japanese officer at that time, although Fuchida was never considered one or anything other than an honorable foe; he was never tainted with any of the atrocities so common in the Japanese conduct of the war. Not directly related to the subject, this book has an illustration of what Kaga looked like at the end of the battle when her fires had subsided. No more evocative title than "Shattered Sword" could describe the ship and the events of that day.

Another vital source, focusing on the pilots and aircraft in great detail, is John B. Lundstrom's "The First Team: Pacific Naval Air Combat from Pearl Harbor to Midway" (US Naval Institute Press, Annapolis MD 1984). John is the professor emeritus in my book re air combat by the US Navy in the Pacific up through the Guadalcanal campaign. Both books analyze Torpedo 8's contribution to the battle, their epic struggle and their actual effect on the battle in detail.

[jainso31]

Thank you Don for your usual professional summary,which I think ;is a most apt postscript to this thread.:)

[Don Boyer]

Thanks for the kind comments jainso31, appreciate it. And then, of course, I forgot to mention Ron Russell's Battle of Midway Roundtable online forum dedicated to the Battle of Midway, which I am sure most forum members are familiar with. Over the years that forum has been blessed with many a post by actual participants in the battle as well as those of some of our most authoritative historians and authors such as Lundstrom, Barrett Tillman and others. There are also great contributions on that forum by RAdm Mac Showers, now the last living member of the Pearl Harbor code-breaking unit, Station Hypo.

For those new to the history of Midway, the link is http://www.midway42.org/.

[Don Boyer]

And just as we speak of the Battle of Midway Roundtable, and new facets of the battle of Midway, this week they provided a link to the new book coming out on Joe Rocehfort and Station Hypo:

http://www.amazon.com/Joe-Rocheforts-War-Codebreaker-Outwitted/dp/1612510604

I will no doubt be ordering a copy ASAP!

[jainso31]

Thanks Don for the prompt-I too will buy this book -it beinhg a reappraisal.

jainso31

[Don Boyer]

This past Saturday my son and I finally got around to visiting the Pacific Aviation Museum on Ford Island here in Pearl Harbor. Attached is a photo of a print available at the museum bookstore re Torpedo 8.

[jainso31]

Thank you Don for sharing that snippet from you and your son's visit to Ford Island-I do hope you had an enjoyable day:cool:.

jainso31

[Mike_H]

My Late father flew in Grumman Avengers while in the RN FAA in 846 NAS, in WW2. Originally called the Tarpon by the RN it was later changed to Avenger. It was an aircraft that he thought was well designed and engineered, and fitted around the aircrew (His words).

As a substantial number of car manufacturers in the US had their production lines converted to produce aircraft, the M in TBM was a General Motors build, and the F in TBF was a Ford build.

Indeed these aircraft (the US versions) had Norden Bombsights fitted in them, just below where the power operated turret was located in the "tunnel." Barret Tillman's book about the Avenger mentions this and has a picture of part of the Norden bombsight fitted in the Avenger.

No Nordens were present in the RN Avengers, as the Norden was a US piece of kit for US only use, in WW2.

IIRC it was used by the RAF in the B-29 Washingtons of the 1950's era.

[jainso31]

My Late father flew in Grumman Avengers while in the RN FAA in 846 NAS, in WW2. Originally called the Tarpon by the RN it was later changed to Avenger. It was an aircraft that he thought was well designed and engineered, and fitted around the aircrew (His words).

As a substantial number of car manufacturers in the US had their production lines converted to produce aircraft, the M in TBM was a General Motors build, and the F in TBF was a Ford build.

Indeed these aircraft (the US versions) had Norden Bombsights fitted in them, just below where the power operated turret was located in the "tunnel." Barret Tillman's book about the Avenger mentions this and has a picture of part of the Norden bombsight fitted in the Avenger.

No Nordens were present in the RN Avengers, as the Norden was a US piece of kit for US only use, in WW2.

IIRC it was used by the RAF in the B-29 Washingtons of the 1950's era.

Hi Mike
Oddly enough my father serviced the Ordinance for the Tarpon/Avenger a/c plus other carrier borne aircraft, when he served with 4 MATMU (Mobile Advanced Torpedo Maintenance Unit) at HMS Bambara and Ukussa based in Ceylon (Sri Lanka) 1944/45.
Was 846 Sqdn with the Eastern Fleet or the BPF??
My father also rated the Grumman above the Barracuda:eek: and the Corsairs and Hellcats above the Fireflies and Seafires:eek:.
Thank you very much for your interest and input-hope to see you again in print on the forum

jainso31

[WGVSr]

If I remember, the Norden was developed by Carl Norden for the USN. I'd never thought of the Avenger carrying one but I know the Devastator could and did when acting as a horizontal bomber.
Bill

[jainso31]

Then one would assume the Dauntless's successor the Avenger, would have been similarly equipped.I do mean the Avengers operated by the USN-whether the British FAA aircraft had the bombsight -I would very much doubt.:(

jainso31

[Mike_H]

Hi Mike
Oddly enough my father serviced the Ordinance for the Tarpon/Avenger a/c plus other carrier borne aircraft, when he served with 4 MATMU (Mobile Advanced Torpedo Maintenance Unit) at HMS Bambara and Ukussa based in Ceylon (Sri Lanka) 1944/45.
Was 846 Sqdn with the Eastern Fleet or the BPF??
My father also rated the Grumman above the Barracuda:eek: and the Corsairs and Hellcats above the Fireflies and Seafires:eek:.
Thank you very much for your interest and input-hope to see you again in print on the forum

jainso31

Interestingly my late father flew Baracudas in 847 NAS and did not rate them at all, his comments were that the aircrew had to fit in the aircraft!
He noted the number of crashes with Baracudas and called them the "widow maker" (his words).
He transferred to 846 flying Avengers when there was a reduction in the number of aircraft in 847, which was lucky because 847 saw action in the Pacific and some of his former aircrew ended up as POWs in Japanese hands , with fatal consequences.
846 when he was on it, was on North Atlantic convoys and the squadron was on HMS Tracker. His service records shows 24 ship and shore establishments in 5 years!

[jainso31]

Thanks for that Mike-Ladyluck decreed your father would serve in the Atlantic on an Escort Carrier-no picnic there. My father served in various escort ships in the Atlantic; before a PHJ to the Far East.

jaonso31

[Mike_H]

Thanks for that Mike-Ladyluck decreed your father would serve in the Atlantic on an Escort Carrier-no picnic there. My father served in various escort ships in the Atlantic; before a PHJ to the Far East.

jaonso31

Funny enough it was a PHJ (Pier Head Jump IIRC) that he did from 847 to 846! I know after the air crash he was in onboard Tracker on 1st April 1944, he spent time with a FRU in Speke (RAF Woodvale) and was in Flying Control at Lee-on-the-Solent HMS Daedalus on D-Day,

[WGVSr]

I think the Devastator's replacement was the Avenger. The Dauntless was eventually [1944] replaced by the Curtiss Helldiver [aka, The Beast].
Bill

[jainso31]

Looking back at Mike-H's original post-I see that I have been guilty of a typo
ie Dauntless for Devastator.:eek:
Thanks Bill for drawing that to my attention.

jainso31

[WGVSr]

I did some statistical analysis many years ago and the TBD was the most dangerous USN aircraft to fly on a combat mission during WWII, something approaching a 20% loss ratio. Of course they flew something less than 200 sorties involving contact with the enemy and suffered a loss of 44 a/c. In a related note, I think there are only 3 American pilots left who flew a combat mission off the carriers at Midway since Capt John Adams died back in March, being Capt 'Dusty" Kleiss and Cmdrs Clay Fisher and Bud Merrill. I think they were all Dauntless pilots but I'd have to check that. I seem to remember the last surviving TBD pilot passing away in the '90s.
Bill

I saw earlier this week that Cmdr. Fisher passed away leaving the only American Midway pilot alive being Capt. 'Dusty' Kleiss of Scouting 6 off Enterprise. Fair Seas.
Bill

[jainso31]

Where have all the flowers gone- gone to Fair Seas every one-a fitting epitaph for such fine men.Thank you Bill.

jainso31

[signal]

Actually, the sacrifice was purely unintentional.
The strike launched by the USN, included 3 squadrons
each of TBD (Torpedoes), SBD (Bombs), and F4F Fighters.
Due to different take - off times, different cruising speeds,
and poor air - to - air radios, only the fighters and dive -
bombers from the Enterprise joined up together, as planned.
It was intended that all squadrons would join up on the way,
and arrive over the IJN carriers simultaneously.
Each TBD squadron leader led his planes off to combat
without support, because he could not locate the fighters
visually, or by radio. The TBD's had to keep going due to fuel
limitations; they could not loiter, waiting for fighters that
apparently were out of sight.
The final success of the attack was due to the coincidental
arrival of SBD's from the Yorktown, just as the Enterprise SBD's
started their attack under cover from thier own fighters.
VT-8 gets all the glory for their suicidal attack, and having
Ensign Gay as their only survivor. Little mentioned is that VT-6
lost all but 3 of its planes, and the TBD's from the Yorktown also
lost heavily. If the above cited figures are correct (200 sorties,
44 TBD lost in combat), then consider this - fewer than 60 of those
sorties took place at Midway, but that battle resulted in more than
30 aircraft lost.

[WGVSr]

At the time of the Battle, I believe a full squadron of torpedo planes was 18 aircraft. There were always a couple of spares. As I recall, 41 Devastators rose to challenge the Japanese fleet. I believe 6 of the 41 came back [though most were somewhat the worse for wear]. I seem to recall that a common number plane [maybe plane 6] from all three squadrons survived the battle. As far as I can tell, the Devastator only acted in a torpedo role in shipping raids in the Gilberts and at Coral Sea and Midway. This would be much more hazardous than acting in a horizontal bombing role as they did in most of the early raids in the Pacific. They were replaced by TBFs [& TBMs] after Midway.

There were actually 7 squadrons of SBDs at Midway: Scouting and Bombing 6 from Enterprise, Scouting and Bombing 8 from Hornet and Bombing 3 and Scouting 5 from Yorktown, all flying SBD-3s. Marine VMSB 241 actually operated what was in reality 2 squadrons, one of SBD-2s and one of Vought SB2Us. The Dauntless was initially a scout bomber and thus equipped both both bombing and scouting squadrons. In a strike situation, they carried the same armament. Strangely, TBDs occasionally showed up in Scouting Squadrons on an interim basis [VS71 had 8 of them at the time of Midway].
Bill

[jainso31]

Bill- hereunder the details of Torpedo 8's mission. aircrew losses and afterthoughts.

VT-8's first and best-known combat mission came during the Battle of Midway on 4 June 1942. Flying the obsolete Douglas TBD Devastators, Commander John C. Waldron's 15 planes were all shot down during their unescorted torpedo attack on Japanese aircraft carriers. The squadron did not destroy any enemy aircraft with their defensive rear .30-caliber machine guns, nor did they damage any of the Japanese carriers.
Only one member of Torpedo Squadron 8 who flew from Hornet on that day survived in the action, Ensign George Gay. Ensign Gay was rescued the day following the battle. Torpedo 8 was afterwards awarded the American Presidential Unit Citation.
Torpedo 8 was the first squadron equipped with Grumman's new TBF-1 Avenger, a bigger, faster, longer-ranged replacement for the TBD. When Hornet sailed to the Pacific, a detachment of the squadron under the command of Lt. Harold "Swede" Larson remained in Norfolk, Virginia to receive the first shipment of the new aircraft. Larson's detachment arrived at Pearl Harbor the day after Hornet sailed for Midway. Six of the squadron's Avengers were flown to Midway under the command of Lt. Langdon Fieberling to participate in the battle. Attacking without fighter cover, five of the Avengers were shot down, with only Ensign Albert K. Earnest and CDR (then Radioman 2/c) Harry Ferrier surviving.
A list of the fallen:
Lt. Commander John C. Waldron
Lt. Raymond A. Moore
Lt. James C. Owens, Jr.
Lt.(jg) George M. Campbell
Lt.(jg) John P. Gray
Lt.(jg) Jeff D. Woodson
Ens. William W. Abercrombie
Ens. William W. Creamer
Ens. Harold J. Ellison
Ens. William R. Evans
Ens. Henry R. Kenyon
Ens. Ulvert M. Moore
Ens. Grant W. Teats
Robert B. Miles, Aviation Pilot 1c
Horace F. Dobbs, Chief Radioman
Amelio Maffei, Radioman 1
Tom H. Pettry, Radioman 1
Otway D. Creasy, Jr. Radioman 2
Ross H. Bibb, Jr., Radioman 2
Darwin L. Clark, Radioman 2
Ronald J. Fisher, Radioman 2
Hollis Martin, Radioman 2
Bernerd P. Phelps Radioman 2
Aswell L. Picou, Seaman 2
Francis S. Polston, Seaman 2
Max A. Calkins, Radioman 3
George A. Field, Radioman 3
Robert K. Huntington, Radioman 3
William F. Sawhill, Radioman 3
Pilots of VT-8's Avenger detachment lost:
Lt. Langdon K. Fieberling, Commanding
Ensign O.J. Gaynier
Ensign V.A. Lewis
Ensign C. E. Brannon
AMM1c D. D. Woodside
VT-8's losses have been attributed to several causes. Hornet's CAG, Stanhope C. Ring, elected to keep the group's fighter escort at high altitude in order to cover the dive bombers and to give the Wildcats an altitude advantage. This decision was supported by Admiral Marc Mitscher, commanding officer of the Hornet at the time of the battle. Ring subsequently led the group on an incorrect heading which resulted in the failure of the dive bombers to make contact with the Japanese fleet. Commander Waldron made repeated attempts to take over the formation by radio before leading VT-8 off on his own. Waldron's initiative coupled with Ring's faulty tactics led to VT-8 attacking the Japanese force without fighter or dive bomber support. It is important to note, however, that all of the carrier-based torpedo squadrons suffered heavily in the battle, including VT-3, which attacked with fighter escort.
Larson's detachment of VT-8 that remained at Pearl Harbor was loaded aboard the USS Saratoga when the carrier was sent to reinforce the forces at Midway. They were later transferred to Hornet where they learned of the loss of their comrades. The detachment became the nucleus of the reconstituted squadron and was reassigned to the Saratoga.

jainso31

[WGVSr]

Bert Earnest got two Navy Crosses for Midway: one for the attack and one for returning to Midway. He always said he would have come back for nothing. He passed away in Oct, 2009.
Bill