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Following an interesting doco on the box about WW2 and the Battle of the Atlantic. Couple of episodes on the U-boats particularly interesting. I was aware that the U-boats did attack on the surface but not to the extent the doco reveals. Almost contemptuous of any escorts just sitting there picking off the targets like sitting ducks. This is in 1941 and the allies casualties horrifying.
How that changed with the introduction of radar and the cracking of the Enigma code. Would have been a different story if Dönitz had achieved his goal with a huge submarine fleet but fortunately he did not. Putting aside the us and them Dönitz was certainly a perfect choice to be in command of the U-boats and a very astute tactician.
KapitanPrien
27-02-2011, 23:45
Hello,
I don't know if it is the 3 part documentary by the BBC you are speaking of or not - I have recently viewed one on YouTube.
Having read about how the command was during WWI, I would have to agree with you regarding Doenitz and WWII.
I feel that if there was not someone like Doenitz in charge of the U-Bootwaffe during WWII, things could possibly have gotten quite ugly. I recently got done re-reading the book 'U-Boat War 1914-1918' and there were numerous accounts of 'war crimes' against ships (hospital ships), civilians, and even merchant sailors.
But in WWII - there was only the Eck case.
Hi!
Yes I believe there is a lot best unknown about the war at sea and it is only possible to imagine the feelings of the surface ships crews if they had the chance to really hurt any U-boats crew. I will try to record the name of the doco as there is another episode this coming Friday. I noticed last week when a U-boat was forced to the surface ramming was popular to dispose of the craft with certainty.
I suppose , although easy to say from the comfort of my computer, as a former( not wartime) submariner I would expect no mercy. It was dog eat dog and in reality a dirty business. Once again I was amazed at the audacity of the U-boat skippers to surface in daylight even and pick 'em off. Absolutely dreadful to imagine what the merchant ships crews suffered and how many were lost.
I wasn't aware of the Eck incident but I did browse it. I suspect other such actions took place as dead men tell no tales and this was not isolated to the Kriegsmarine I'll wager.
KapitanPrien
28-02-2011, 15:05
Hello,
Ok re - the documentary.
A good book that I recommend regarding things from the view of the merchant ships is 'HX 72: The First Convoy to Die'. Very interesting book and it is of the Canadian perspective. I thought it was well written and objective.
If you can - try to get a copy. Worth the read. :)
Hi,
Thanks for the info on the book will check it out. The TV series I am watching is 'As it happened' all about WW2 and at the moment three episodes on the Atlantic. Looking at some of the historic film on WW2 I believe 'we' should have been shown these during training but when I did my training training aids were not so advanced.
I will do more reading on that period of the war as I find the incident you mentioned interesting in that the U-boat was in passage to the Indian Ocean. The HMAS SYdney/Kormoran encounter remains a matter of debate in Australia as there is much discussion as the whether there was a submarine involved. I always believed there was a Japanese boat but if the U-boats were in the area maybe a rendezvous for provisions ? What puzzled most is there was not one survivor from HMAS Sydney and she took a long time to sink apparently and it occurred to me possible submarine presence,
http://www.awm.gov.au/encyclopedia/hmas_sydney/action.asp
KapitanPrien
04-03-2011, 18:03
Hello,
Sure thing re the book.:)
Regarding the Kormoran, in a World War II magazine I bought a few months ago, there was a short article about that. I don't have that on me anymore, as I had bought the magazine only for the feature article on Suhren, but what I read was rather interesting.
:)
Hi,
I will de my best regarding the book as it sounds good. The HMAS Sydney incident is an ongoing subject in Australia and worth a look as it seems no satisfactory answer has been arrived at. No survivors from the Sydney remains the biggest question in my mind.
There was another episode on the Atlantic convoys/U-boats last night, Friday, and once again I found it remarkable how the U-boats operated on the surface. It was necessary because of the speed factor as stated but the sheer disregard for the escorts by the U-boat skippers is truly incredible although they eventually paid the price.
I often thought in ant submarine attack maybe get rid of the escorts first but the wolf-pack approach obviously succeeded initially but that too became costly with radar and cracking the Enigma code. All fascinating history. I found the Canadian involement in the convoys interesting as I was not aware of the extent of their contribution before seeing the documentory.
Cheers deejay
Another couple of things I learned from the episode last night, how the U-boats actually entered New York Harbour and the ships moving about with full navigation lights. Something thought not possible no doubt given the distance involved from Europe to America. There must have been some way of provisioning as it is a long distance without fresh food and fuel.
From the doco it appears that at one stage the order was given by AH that survivors were to be killed even though the ships were destroyed. This is an ongoing and contrversial subject I know, killing survivors, but in the heat of war no doubt some acts exceeded the bounds of humanity.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNV4IBWMfNA
KapitanPrien
05-03-2011, 13:40
Hello,
You'll probably find the HX 72 book interesting then with regards to the Canadian involvement.
There is a nice site I came across awhile ago regarding convoys:
http://www.warsailors.com/convoys/index.html
The site is a convoy index page and rather informative.
Oh U-Boats coming to the US East Coast is nothing new actually. It was done during WWI - the first one that comes to my mind is Hans Rose in U 53 - they came into the Delaware Bay as well during WWI.
This is a quote from one of my WWI U-Boat books:
"So, all in all, between seventy and seventy-five thousand tons of Allied shipping had gone down to Davy Jones carrying our compliments, and we had shown a skeptical world that even the wide expanse of the Atlantic was not enough to keep us from a super-raid to the coast of far-off America. To those who can see into the future, surely this is a warning of what later wars may bring. For the day will come when submarines will think no more of a voyage across the Atlantic than they do now of a raid across the North Sea. In the not far-distant future our giant U-151 will be succeeded by craft that will operate not only above and under the sea, but up in the air as well. America's isolation is now a thing of the past." - Frederick Koerner (First Watch officer on von Nostitz' U 151). - WWI
Concerning Hitler ordering the shooting of survivors - from what I've read, Doenitz actually stood up to him and Hitler backed down. I can't remember which book (or even site) I have read it on at the moment. But that was stated and the site or book had also gone on to say that while Doenitz knew that merchant sailors would be killed in the sinking of ships - he drew the line at murdering them.
KapitanPrien
09-03-2011, 21:56
Hello,
I don't know if you've come across this article - but I think you may find it worthwhile:
Treatment of Merchant Ship Survivors by U-Boat Crews
http://uboat.net/articles/index.html?article=55
In general the treatment of merchant ship survivors by U-boat crews was very good. It was perhaps even better than the treatment of enemy merchant ship survivors by American submarines.
It has been a common misconception by many including some in Germany that during World War II U-boats machine-gunned survivors of the ships they sunk. There have been allegations that they machine-gunned the lifeboats to make them unusable to escape in, that they machine-gunned lifeboats as the men were getting in them and as they were being lowered, and that men were machine-gunned while in the water. These stories were however, rarely reported for the record at the time by the crews of ships sunk or damaged by U-boats. The questions were asked when the survivors were debriefed though and the answers were over and over again, "No we were not fired on in the lifeboats or in the water". On the contrary, the official records are full of stories about U-boat crews giving survivors directions to land or giving them medical care etc. The machine-gunning stories have however crept into a large number of books, magazines, movies and newspaper articles, etc.
As recently as April 21, 2000 a U-boat machine-gunning men in a lifeboat was depicted in the movie U-571. The movie wasn't true and neither was the scene containing the machine-gunning but many still believed it.
It is quite easy to see why so many still believe those stories. The Third Reich committed some horrendous atrocities during that war and as a result way too many folks are willing to believe any story about the German war machine without the slightest question and without any investigation at all.
However, the stories of U-boats machine-gunning survivors are simply not accurate. There was only one proven case of a U-boat intentionally machine-gunning survivors during the whole war. It was never the policy of the U-boat service to shoot men in the water or in lifeboats. On the contrary, they routinely helped the men in the water and in lifeboats when they could even after they were ordered by Dönitz not to do so.
There is however some truth to the stories and this makes getting to the bottom of what happened just that much more difficult. Men were killed by gunfire while on the decks of merchant ships, while getting into lifeboats, and perhaps while helpless in the water. They were not however targeted and their deaths were tragic but were not crimes.
Hi, I was not familiar with the article so thanks it is very good. To categorise every detail of all submarine incidents of WW2 is clearly an impossibiiity so the absolute truth will probably never be known. Another fact is that in addition to the actual combat mentality more basic instincts come to the fore like survival, the most powerful instinct in any creature.
Always the propaganda element is there as with those directly involved view what is taking place from a personal angle so the propaganda is written to shield the reality from the history books and as much as possible make their own look good. This is natural when done in good faith but evil when done deliberately to smear good men and women.
Probably the tales will become even more distorted with time but maybe a few genuine writers will provide both sides of the story and understanding readers will interpret a degree of the truth. At least those who experience(d) life/war at sea will appreciate the reality although one certain nationalty does have a tendency to elaborate.
Thanks again
KapitanPrien
11-03-2011, 21:24
Hello,
Yes I agree and you're welcome for the link. :)
nigelweysom
26-03-2011, 19:44
as this thread is about German U Boats i would like to mention that here in Guernsey we still have some tunnels that were built during WW11 to house fuel tanks for U Boats , they are now used as a WW11 museum
Nigel
Hi all.
I am seeking info on U118, washed up on St Leonards beech.
The info is requested from another (non naval) forum.
Dated pics attatched.
Paddy
It's a fact that time passing distorts historical facts, certainly films produced during wars for public consuming were certainly biased for propaganda. That is not to say atrocities were carried out only by an enemy, war turns some normal people into sub-humans.
Hi all.
I am seeking info on U118, washed up on St Leonards beech.
The info is requested from another (non naval) forum.
Dated pics attatched.Paddy
U118 was surrendered at the end of WW1. Wikipedia has more on U118 here:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SM_U-118
Good thread.
How those 'Untersee Boat men' stuck together....
End of WW2 Donitz was appointed Hitler's succesor (was a Nazi). So he surrendered to Allies a few days later, then was charged with War Crimes under the Nuremburg Convention; the crime 'Unrestricted U-boat warfare'.
Months later, during his trial, Admrial Nimitz appeared as a Witness for the Defence. (Nimitz was the highly respected Admiral i/c the USN Pacific Fleet).
Nimitz stated that early in the Pacific War he had authorised 'Unrestricted Submarine warfare' against Japan; so he was also in a sense as guilty as Donitz.
As a result Donitz escaped the Death penalty, sentenced to 10 years jail, then commuted to 2 years and released.
nigelweysom
17-04-2011, 19:39
Good thread.
How those 'Untersee Boat men' stuck together....
End of WW2 Donitz was appointed Hitler's succesor (was a Nazi). So he surrendered to Allies a few days later, then was charged with War Crimes under the Nuremburg Convention; the crime 'Unrestricted U-boat warfare'.
Months later, during his trial, Admrial Nimitz appeared as a Witness for the Defence. (Nimitz was the highly respected Admiral i/c the USN Pacific Fleet).
Nimitz stated that early in the Pacific War he had authorised 'Unrestricted Submarine warfare' against Japan; so he was also in a sense as guilty as Donitz.
As a result Donitz escaped the Death penalty, sentenced to 10 years jail, then commuted to 2 years and released.
this seems very fair to me and just goes to prove a statement that i have already posted namely that the victors are always seen as innocent and the vanquished as guilty of war crimes
Nigel
Yes, Nigel, history is held in the hands of the Victor.
One of the more interesting bits of film footage and photographic images made of the closing period of World War Two are of the surrender of several of the higher ranking commanders of the Third Reich, Doenitz among them. If you find this bit of archania try and identify who was standing there with Doenitz. Interesting. Regards
nigelweysom
21-04-2011, 20:57
Hank ive done a bit of searching and cant seem to find much ,any clues on where to look
Nigel
I saw this through archieved footage when I was stationed in Berlin. I wish I had the time to help you search, rather busy now. The guy standing next to Doenitz was Col. Walther Horten,Luftwaffe, one of the brothers involved in the flying wing development. I should think this one should be out on one of the websites. The breifcase Horten held in his right hand held all the Atomic research information of the Third Reich, quite a bargaining chip. Please get back to me on this. I can't believe this is not commonly available. Regards
nigelweysom
23-04-2011, 19:51
Hank i found out about the flying wing a fantastic piece of design , but cant find any film of col Horten at all, the Pathe news website has a few clips featuring Doenitz but nothing with Horten
Nigel
Another "good" read is a book called Operation Bottom plate. It covers the u boat operations mainly off of the US shores during WW2. Interesting in that it has first hand accounts of personnel who on the U boats at that time. It also covers the surface question quite well.
Regards
Charles
Hi!
Is there anybody who can recognize that submarine???
Last year discovered German Submarine near Varna still hiding her real name.
Looks like it is not the famost first Bulgarian Submarine UB8 (Podvodnik 18) :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SM_UB-8
Few months before the propeller was cleaned and the manufacturer's sign was found - U.B.1-8 toghether with B.B.No132....So more questions arised now cause if it is UB8 the manufacturer's No must be 246!
Actually how to translate B.B.No:? Is that for sure Manufacturer's No?
Furthermore, UB8 or Podvodnik 18 as she was named under Bg flag has on board 47mm gun, but the divers found 37mm "Bethleem" gun with a turkish sultan's tigra (stamp). According to some sources that type of guns were found on some captured Turkish speed boats by that time.
So mystery still not reveiled :cool:
More photos of Podvodnik 18:
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