Janes Fighting Ships: 1897 and 1908 Books??

[joecar33]

Hello everyone..I am new to here....I wanted to see if I could get any help on these 2 books that I found in a box of old books.....I am pretty sure they are not reprints. If anyone could help me please respond...thanks Joey

[Tiornu]

What help do you want?

[joecar33]

I wanted to know how rare they were and what they may be worth...thanks for reply. Joey

[Don Boyer]

If you have a first edition Jane's (1897) with dustjacket in good condition, have a good specialist book dealer look it over and authenticate it. They are rare and can have some value over and above the usual old issues of Jane's. The 1897 in particular can be valuable simply because it was the very first year of issue.

Do check the title pages to ensure that they are not reprint editions. There have been some really nicely done reprints by a British company of the old Jane's for those who can't afford to grab an old edition from a bookseller. (There have also been some crummy reprints, unfortunately.)

Also, if the 1897 edition has a dust jacket, be sure to have the book appraiser check it out. There has been some real work done on "forging" dustjackets simply because they add so much value to old books. (I wish my 1912 and 1918 eds. had their dustjackets :) )

If those are original editions, you have a couple of pretty rare books regardless of condition and should make the effort to care for them and have them appraised.

I am no book dealer OR appraiser, but I do have to say that the 1897 in particular should be checked out by an expert, as I did "hear" of one in good condition selling for about $5000, but that's just hearsay, I have no documentation of that, so don't let that run you heart rate up! I could be way off. Other old editions of Jane's are far less valuable, of course.

In any case, congratulations on finding a couple of really historic books. Even in reprint editions, they are a fascinating read. Even the adverts are of historical interest!

Regards,

[joecar33]

Thanks Don for that reply....neither book has a dust jacket..I know to bad....lol... but I do think they are real....nowhere does it say reprint and the 1897 has the ILLS. not photos. what other ways are there to tell? once again thanks. Joey

[Tiornu]

Try looking at used-book sites like ABE and see what those volumes are selling for.

[joecar33]

Thanks Tionu ...I tried looking there but there were no 1897 books.....my book has no copyright in the front...just the Page that has "ALL THE WORLD'S FIGHTING SHIPS" on the 3rd page Then 2 pages from the back it has:

LONDON:
PRINTED BY WILLIAM CLOWES AND SONS, LIMITED,
stamford street and charing cross

[Don Boyer]

Joe, from what you've posted and from your PMs, I can't emphasize enough the need for you to have the 1897 edition checked out by a pro. If an original first issue, first edition Jane's from 1897 (actually realeased in 1898) you have a really rare find, and a great historical document. Preservation should be first and foremost. Too bad there is no dustjacket, which really affects the appraised value, but even so, the book has considerable value over and above the prices paid for other old editions of Jane's. I have the 1912 and 1919 in original editions and they have some value as listed on ABE Books when they've had similar editions for sale. I have NEVER seen and 1897 for sale on any book site.

Do have them checked out, but also take care that yon "expert" doesn't tell you it's not worth much and offer to buy it for $100...that ain't happening!

As I mentioned in my PM, photos of the book and it's title and other introductory pages would be great to see, if you can do that. Many on the forum besides me would love that! Not sure if those would be postable here though -- Jane's still holds copyright on all their material if I remember correctly.

Regards,

[joecar33]

Ok everyone here are some pics of the 1897 book.

[joecar33]

ok here are some more pics....hope you guys like.

[Batstiger]

I'm no expert but it looks good to me!

Bob.

[Don Boyer]

Joey sent me those photos as well. I'm convinced, and also absolutely green with jealousy!! What a find! The condition of those books is much better than my 1912/1919 editions, so it's an even rarer find. Jane's aren't all that rare, even the older editions, as anyone who visits the booksellers on line knows, but of all the Jane's, 1897 is the Holy Grail.

Congrats, Joey on a real find! Let us know if you've had a book appraiser look them over, I'd love to hear what they have to say.

Thanks for your posts. This has been a really fun thread so far.
Regards,

[joecar33]

Batstiger- thanks for your reply and help....
Don----Thanks you so much for all your help on this matter....I guess my next step is to try and find a dealer around my area that i could take these to..And how to keep them so that they dont get ruined....I will try and post here if i find anything out.

Joey

[patroclus]

This is an interesting thread.

I have the David & Charles facsimile of the 1898 "All the World's Fighting Ships" by Fred T. Jane, the original having been published by Sampson, Low, Marston and Company Ltd. in 1898. Printed by William Clowes and Sons Ltd. Jane's preface is dated 1897. The dust jacket of the facsimile states that it is a copy of the first issue of "Jane's Fighting Ships". The pages seem to be identical with those reproduced from the "1897" book in Posts 9 and 10.

The Jane's website confirms that 1898 was the first year of issue.

Could the 1897 book be a rebound edition of the 1898 edition or was their a "preliminary" printing in 1897?

[Don Boyer]

Patroclus -- you've brought up exactly the issue I was thinking of when I got to comparing the two books, as I also have the 1898 reprint. There is also a difference in the covers of the 1908 edition Joey has and one advertised on ABE Books. I also noted the title page of the 1908 issue says "11th year of issue," which would make 1897 the first year of issue, not 1898. I plan to make some work for a Jane's historian on their website out of this, just for the fun of seeing if they will actually respond and have the information to help Joey out.

I will post results if Jane's people actually respond.

Thanks for bringing more to the table on this!

[patroclus]

Patroclus -- you've brought up exactly the issue I was thinking of when I got to comparing the two books, as I also have the 1898 reprint. There is also a difference in the covers of the 1908 edition Joey has and one advertised on ABE Books. I also noted the title page of the 1908 issue says "11th year of issue," which would make 1897 the first year of issue, not 1898. I plan to make some work for a Jane's historian on their website out of this, just for the fun of seeing if they will actually respond and have the information to help Joey out.

I will post results if Jane's people actually respond.

Thanks for bringing more to the table on this!

1908 would be the 11th year of issue if 1898 was the first.:D

[Don Boyer]

Patroclus: Yeah, I don't count so good anymore. That's what I get for adding 11 to 1897 or subtracting 11 from 1908. Back to school for me! --- :)

However, the whole thing was niggling at me because I had read something regarding this whole issue, and I couldn't place it until this evening. I have a copy of Jane's "The British Battle Fleet" in a reprint edition of 1997 by Conway's Maritme Press. It has an Introduction by Antony Preston in which he stated "...he [Jane] was able to launch and illustrated guide to the navies of the world entitled All the World’s Fighting Ships in 1897.” Why the David and Charles reprint, entitled the 1898 edition, claims to be a reprint of the first annual issue of Jane's eludes me.

However, I happen to have a contact in IHS Jane's who has an email from me to see if Jane's has an archivist/historian type that can shed some light on this. We seem to be having a lot of fun with the inconsistencies we've uncoverd since Joey brought the issues he has to our attention. 1897 vs. 1898, and the fact that the cover of the 1908 edition he has differs from the cover of a 1908 edition offered for sale on ABE Books. Hopefully, someone at Jane's will actually respond to this issue.

[patroclus]

It would be interesting to see the Title Page of Joey's 1897 book. That should have the date on it underneath the publisher's details..

[Don Boyer]

That would be good to see, as the reprint edition I have has that info on page four as Sampson Low, Marston and Co. 1898. The Preface of that book by Jane is dated November 1897. Maybe Joey has a photo of that page from his edition, clearly marked as 1897 on the cover. Still waiting to see if IHS Jane's bother to respond. Considering what they charge for an issue of Jane's these days, I'm sure they are well staffed! :rolleyes: I've attached a shot of my page four from the reprint edition.

[joecar33]

Thanks guys for all your help on these books...Don I hope you are able to find out why there is diffferent books on the 1908 one....and why my 1897 is different...like I stated, I dont have a title page in my 1897 book and I checked very closely to the page and it does not appear to have a place where a page was tore out or missing....it is a nice tight bind between those pages.....that is why i am so baffled!..lol and the page that has the printing information is the 3rd from last page in the BACK of the book.

Joey


P.S> I added a pic of my printer page...like i said it is in the back of the book...3rd page from the end.

[Don Boyer]

Hi, Joey: You must have posted right when I was adding a photo to my previous post -- the title page from the 1898 reprint. If your copy lacks this page, with date, it does raise questions, unfortunately. No reason for Sampson Low, Marston and Co. (who printed all the early Janes) to have not included a blurb on themselves and a publication date as was required by British law of the day. You had mentioned what would be p. 7 and 8 in your copy is lacking as well in your earlier PM to me, so I am thinking that it's going to take IHS Jane's to sort this out if they are willing to expend the time on it. I hope so, because the plot has thickened! I don't think there are any questions regarding that 1908 edition however, unless the difference in covers we discovered earlier means anything. Funny how books over 100 years old can stir up such interest! At least for us naval history buffs.

Guess we will have to stay tuned for the next exicting cliff-hanging episode when Jane's responds to my email. If they don't, I plan to annoy their various divisions until they do. Book authenticity is a critical issue in this case.

[joecar33]

Ok I took the books to a local dealer..not sure how much he knew about these books but he said he thought that they may have been rebinded.....now if they were then that may clear up few things....i am putting pics of the bindings....if anyone has a real copy of say the 1908 and can look at the binding and see if they match mine or not that would be real helpful...not really sure how we can tell about the 1897 since noone seems to have a real copy. The 1st pic is the 1897. and the 2nd is the 1908

Don thanks for looking into these and trying to solve this Mystery..lol

Joey

[INVINCIBLE]

This is a fascinating thread and well done Joey for kicking off this subject.
I suspect that quite a few members of the forum may have the odd copy of Janes.
I have the 1997-98 ‘One Hundredth Edition’, which contains a lengthy article entitled ‘The Legacy of Fred T Jane’, written by John Moore. It describes how the very first edition was completed in November 1897 and reached the booksellers very early in 1898. Published by Sampson Low, Marston and Company and printed by William Clowes and Sons the book was an immediate success, a second edition being needed within four months.

[joecar33]

INVINIBLE..That was very interesting....See if we could get more people reading this, then we may able to learn more about these books..things that some may not have known..I hope more people will join in.

[patroclus]

The absence of the title page in Joey's book probably lends weight to my proposal in post number 14 . This book was rebound some time after the loss of the title page and when the only date relevant to publication which could be found was the 1897 date at the end of the Preface and this was applied to the rebinding.

Consequently, this item would be an original 1898 first issue, minus title page and rebound. A great find.

[Don Boyer]

Rebinding would appear to be the most reasonable assumption at this point, as Patroclus mentioned. Waiting to hear from Ye Olde Book Publishers still. Even rebound, the books are a great set to have. Congrats go out to Joey for a great score regardless of original binding.

[joecar33]

Don did you see the pics of my bindings? I was wondering if you could look at your 1912 and see if they look alike or not?

Joey

[Don Boyer]

As expected, not a peep from the people at Jane's to date. I will give them some time, and then try again. Joey made some great book finds!

[designeraccd]

Great find....congratulations!!! I just remember seeing the 1898 JFS at the Milwaukee Main Library in 1964; realized what it was...but... Also studied their copy of Oscar Parkes British Battleships; a book I wish I could afford!!!

I hope Milwaukee has carefully preserved those books!! Neither one had been "butchered" as way to many were in Public Libraries. Madison, Wisconsin had a copy of 43-44 JFS and even in 1959 it had been badly cut up :mad:

A few years ago I found a 43-44 issue in a used book shop and despite it being badly butchered...bought it. DFO ;)

[Don Boyer]

Oscar Parkes' British Battleships was another book I scored from the now-defunct bookstore in Honolulu where I acquired severa old Jane's (1912, 1919, 1931). The only set of books I missed out on that was there at the time was H.W. Wilson's Battleships in Action from 1899, I believe. Price was pretty steep and somebody with real money in their wallet beat me to it. Didn't know Parkes' book was hard to find or expensive. A great book by any standards as far as ship design and construction is concerned.

Interesting thing about that book was that Parkes never listed Jane's as a major reference in his work, and mentions Jane's only once elsewhere in the text, yet he edited Jane's for several years after the death of Fred Jane. Wonder what happened there?

Regards..

[patroclus]

He commenced martialling material for this "British Battleships" in 1923. He was Editor of JFS for 17 years from 1920(?) So much of the preparation would nave been done concurrently with his editorial job.

However, JFS is very much a secondary source and Parkes went back to the original Ships' Books and other Admiralty records in compiling "British Battleships". There was probably nothing of a unique nature that he could have culled from JFS. It might have been different if he had been dealing with foreign ships. It is possible that he had a falling out with the publishers of JFS but I cannot recall hearing of it.

The above is only guesswork - I have no authority for it.:D

[joecar33]

Don, I was wondering if you got the 2 PM's I sent you? thanks Joey

[INVINCIBLE]

Don, I was wondering if you got the 2 PM's I sent you? thanks Joey

Joey,

Do you have some more info on this fascinating subject. We have a splendid collection of Janes in our naval museum, though quite a few of the early ones are copies. We do nott go back as far as the 1897/8 edition. I wonder what the relative values are between originals and copies in good condition with their dust jackets.

[joecar33]

INVINCIBLE......I am learning alittle bit about these books..lol I think my 1897/98 book may have been rebinded at some point and may be missing the title page....the 1908 may have been rebinded as well....both books are in good shape for the age... I am almost sure they both are real and not copies...as far as value goes .....I have found that the early ones can be worth alot. I still would like to find out more about these books....and would be interested in selling them at some point. Thanks

Joey

[Don Boyer]

An update -- dead silence from the Jane's people as I expected from their PR types. I am going to try a different tack with them. Having seen the photos of the Jane's and the PMs from Joey, I am convinced he has a rebound original 1898, with a missing title page (resulting in the 1897 date on the cover) and with at least one page mis-bound at the back instead of the front. Still, and original Jane's first issue! The '08 is probably rebound as well and from what Joey has said, all original and all there. Great finds!

I'm giving Jane's another shot from a different perspective to see what they say, but I am of the opinion that we here on the forum probably have it right.

I did receive all your PMs, Joey, hadn't responded as I haven't been on the island of late.

Regards, and thanks to all who have posted.

[INVINCIBLE]

An update -- dead silence from the Jane's people as I expected from their PR types. I am going to try a different tack with them. Having seen the photos of the Jane's and the PMs from Joey, I am convinced he has a rebound original 1898, with a missing title page (resulting in the 1897 date on the cover) and with at least one page mis-bound at the back instead of the front. Still, and original Jane's first issue! The '08 is probably rebound as well and from what Joey has said, all original and all there. Great finds!

I'm giving Jane's another shot from a different perspective to see what they say, but I am of the opinion that we here on the forum probably have it right.

I did receive all your PMs, Joey, hadn't responded as I haven't been on the island of late.

Regards, and thanks to all who have posted.

Don,

Well done I am absolutely sure that you are correct and that 'we' on this forum have got it right. As I said above I have the whole history of those early editions set out in my 1997/98 Centenary special edition which confirms the story of the actual date of the first issue of Jane's

[Don Boyer]

I've sent off another missive regarding these books to IHS Jane's to a different contact not in the PR business and we'll see if anything comes of it. I included the photos and explanation of the content issues with the books et al. Maybe "customer service" will be more amenable to responding to a "customer"?

Regards

[Don Boyer]

I have received a response to my enquiry to IHS Jane's regarding the two volumes of Jane's Fighting Ships acquired by Joey.

Jane's confirms that the "1897" version is a mis-titled rebind of the 1898 Jane's. Conclusion supported by the missing title page which only left the "1897" date at the end of Fred Jane's intro to the volume for the reference of whoever rebound it. The printer's information appearing at the end of the book also lends credence to the rebinding, not only by it's wrong position in the book but by the fact that it is, in the original edition, the back of the title page. Who knows how they left that title page off! Unfortunate that there is a missing page and a misbound page, along with the wrongly dated cover and spine, but on the other hand, it's still that rare 1898 edition!

The 1908 edition is also a rebind; Jane's confirmed that their copy in their library matches the one offered for sale on EBay, not the cover on Joey's 1908 edition. Still, that is a complete 1908 edition in good condition, so it matters little.

Thanks to all who posted regarding this -- it's been a fun issue to research, and as I suspected, the conclusions drawn here on the forum were exactly correct. Are we good or what! :)

Regards to all, and congratulations, Joey, on such great naval history finds regardless of their condition! Those volumes are hard to come by!

a PS: Jane's people had to go all the way back to the staff in England to find somebody who could dig into this. Their Customer Service people did this bit of research -- apparently, their PR staff in America would have missed their tee time responding originally! I have sent a response back to the two ladies who did the work, thanking them for the time and effort.

Now, if I could just afford a 2011 Jane's!!

[Dreadnought]

I have followed this thread with much interest and fascination. Good work guys.

[joecar33]

Don, Thanks so much for you time and input...I guess I will try and sell these books now...so if there is anyone interested in owning 1 or 2 VERY fine books..that are in Great condition....send me a pm.....I had a book dealer tell me that rebinding the books did not take much value away from them. i would sell the 1908 for $175 and the 1898 for $250.....if you want to see more pics or have anymore Q's please feel free to ask..Thanks for everyones help!

Joey

[joecar33]

The 1908 has been sold! I still have the 1898 if anyone is interested? Very tough book to find that is not a reprint!!! thanks Joey

[patroclus]

The 1908 has been sold! I still have the 1898 if anyone is interested? Very tough book to find that is not a reprint!!! thanks Joey

Well done Joey!

[Batstiger]

I have received a response to my enquiry to IHS Jane's regarding the two volumes of Jane's Fighting Ships acquired by Joey.

Jane's confirms that the "1897" version is a mis-titled rebind of the 1898 Jane's. Conclusion supported by the missing title page which only left the "1897" date at the end of Fred Jane's intro to the volume for the reference of whoever rebound it. The printer's information appearing at the end of the book also lends credence to the rebinding, not only by it's wrong position in the book but by the fact that it is, in the original edition, the back of the title page. Who knows how they left that title page off! Unfortunate that there is a missing page and a misbound page, along with the wrongly dated cover and spine, but on the other hand, it's still that rare 1898 edition!

The 1908 edition is also a rebind; Jane's confirmed that their copy in their library matches the one offered for sale on EBay, not the cover on Joey's 1908 edition. Still, that is a complete 1908 edition in good condition, so it matters little.

Thanks to all who posted regarding this -- it's been a fun issue to research, and as I suspected, the conclusions drawn here on the forum were exactly correct. Are we good or what! :)

Regards to all, and congratulations, Joey, on such great naval history finds regardless of their condition! Those volumes are hard to come by!

a PS: Jane's people had to go all the way back to the staff in England to find somebody who could dig into this. Their Customer Service people did this bit of research -- apparently, their PR staff in America would have missed their tee time responding originally! I have sent a response back to the two ladies who did the work, thanking them for the time and effort.

Now, if I could just afford a 2011 Jane's!!


Brilliant work Don, without your time and effort I don't think we would have got very far with this query.
I have followed the progress from the very beginning and wish Joey all the very best with his quest.

Bob.

[Don Boyer]

Thanks, Bob. That was a bit o' fun work, actually, and the two ladies at Jane's who did the digging were quite nice and there responses left no doubt.

[INVINCIBLE]

The 1908 has been sold! I still have the 1898 if anyone is interested? Very tough book to find that is not a reprint!!! thanks Joey

Well done Joey. I have asked around here for interest from the naval museums. Explosion has said no thanks and I am still waiting for the National museum of the Royal Navy to get back to me but I am about to go off to the USA for a month so will be out of touch for a while. Be interested to see what the position is when I get back.

[ensign2547]

Have attached a photo of an original 1898 Jane's All the World's Fighting Ships in original binding. There was actually two printings of the original edition. The second printing removed the illustration of the USS Maine, and added some updated illustrations in the back of the book that would appear in the 1899 edition. The 1899 edition was bound as the 1898, silver letters on blue cloth. The 1900 was gold on blue, 1901 gold on green. From 1901 to 1923, all odd years were bound gold on green, even years gold on blue. From 1924 to the 1956-57 issue the binding was the standard gold lettering on blue, landscape format.

From 1903 to 1915 all original editions had tabs. Reprints were never published with tabs.

The 1915 edition was issued in a public edition and non-public edition.
The public edition had all pages on the British Navy removed. The buyer was expected to order the missing pages after the war

There was no 1945-46 edition. The 1944-45 edition was issued late due to the release of information after the war. I have never seen a 1948-49 edition, may not have been issued.

Regarding reprints, there were two reprints of the 1898 edition. In 1969 by Arco Publishers in the US and David & Charles in the UK. This reprint was issued with a dust jacket. The second reprint was a special re-issue by Jane's Publishing in 1985. This format was very close to the original edition with only a slight changes on the cover and as the original there was no dust jacket.

Arco also reprinted the 1905-06, 1906-07, 1914, 1919, 1924, 1931, 1939, 1944-45 and 1950-51 editions

[Don Boyer]

Just ran across this post.

Your post was a very iinteresting bit of historical background on the issues of Jane's Fighting Ships. How did you come by this information, as knowledge of the historical publication data on naval annuals is a bit of a rarity among the naval enthusiasts? If you have a complete set available, color me green with jealousy...:)

I have a 1957-48 Jane's in my small collection, which may explain the lack of a '48 - '49 edition. (1898, 1905-06, 1908, 1912, 1919, 1924, 1931, 1943 -44, 1947 - 48, 1955-56, 1965 are the oldest and I have issues up until last year when they finally priced them totally out of my range.) Aside from the purely historical data and photographs I find them highly useful for researching what was public knowledge about ships at the time of publication among many other useful facts.

Thanks for the informative post, and also for the photo of the original 1898 --I've seen several for sale that do not match that cover format and colors, and that photo is proof they are reproductions of one kind or another, or re-binds.

And, of course, welcome to the forum Ensign 2547!

[BlackBat242]

A little piece of trivia... why did Fred T. Jane begin publishing that wonderful series?

[Blaydon]

As an aside I have found it the past that Janes take customer service very seriously at least on this side of the pond.

About 1992 i tried to get a small softback cover version of their Warsaw Pact Warships handbook. Not an expensive item just a quick reference guide.

I ordered it from my local reputable bookseller and sat back to wait. After about six weeks and numerous phone calls to the book seller he replied that he had contacted Janes about the order but that he was told the book was out of print.

I was dissapointed that it was out of print but moreso I thought that Janes should have immediately replied to that effect when the order was placed and saved me six weeks of hassle so I decided to write to them and inform them that I was dissapointed never expecting a reply.

Less than a week later I recieved a reply by post saying how sorry they were that I had been dissapointed and how they strive to keep their customers happy, fair enough I thought.

Two days later I recieved a package containing a copy of the book and a note saying they had searched their warehouse and found a copy and to please accept it free of charge with their appologies for my time and energy expended over the issue.

Exceptional response.

[Don Boyer]

A little piece of trivia... why did Fred T. Jane begin publishing that wonderful series?

Because he was a starving artist and wanted to make money???

:)

I saw the article in the 100th anniversary Jane's with his bio., but forgot the root reasons he started the annual in competition with Brassey's which had started up quite a few years previously. His associaton as an illustrator for some of the noted newspaper naval commentators of the day and his development of the naval board game probably had a lot to do with it.

[BlackBat242]

Because he was a starving artist and wanted to make money???

:)

his development of the naval board game probably had a lot to do with it.

If you look at the gunnery tables and ship descriptions in early Jane's volumes, you will see letters in parentheses... (AAA²), etc... these referred to tables in the combat resolution portion of the wargame rules!

Jane's All the Worlds' Fighting Ships was the reference portion of the game rules!

That it was handy for others as well was part of the marketing strategy.

Note the date at the end of the quote below:


RULES
FOR
THE JANE NAVAL WAR GAME
A SEA KRIEGSPIEL SIMULATING ALL THE MOVEMENTS AND EVOLUTIONS OF EVERY INDIVIDUAL TYPE OF MODERN WARSHIP, AND THE PROPORTIONATE EFFECT OF EVERY SORT OF GUN AND PROJECTILE
PART I. TACTICAL PART II. STRATEGICAL

INVENTED BY
FRED T. JANE
AUTHOR OF "ALL THE WORLD'S FIGHTING SHIPS," ETC., ETC.

REVISED AND APPROVED BY CAPTAIN H.I.H. GRAND DUKE ALEXANDER MIHAILOVITCH OF RUSSIA, I.R.N; CAPTAIN H.S.H. PRINCE LOUIS OF BATTENBERG, R.N.; CAPTAIN H. J. MAY, R.N.; AND LIEUTENANT R. KAWASHIMA, I.J.N.

LONDON
SAMPSON LOW, MARSTON AND COMPANY
LIMITED
ST. DUNSTAN'S HOUSE, FETTER LANE, E.C.
1898
LONDON:
PRINTED BY WILLIAM CLOWES AND SONS, LIMITED
STAMFORD STREET AND CHARING CROSS.

INTRODUCTORY NOTE

The aim of this Naval War Game is to provide a thorough sea equivalent to the Army War Game. The essential idea has been to produce something by which any problems can be worked out with the greatest possible simulation of actuality, especially such as least easily lend themselves to solution on paper. In particular, the game is designed for us in all such interesting problems as those connected with "discriminating fire," and to that end not only each individual type of ship, but also every individual gun and projectile, method of protection, thickness and quality of armour is allowed for. In some of these things a certain amount of approximation has, for simplicity, been necessary, but for practical purposes the differentiation will be found sufficiently ample.

The majority of the rules do not call for special comment; all represent attempts to simulate the real thing as closely as possible; all are framed with a view to avoiding any unnecessary complications. Comparatively few of them are needed for any one game. For such as are most frequently required summaries are provided, either upon loose sheets, or upon the pieces; there is, consequently, no necessity to "learn" the game. It can be played by any naval officer after five minutes' study.

All the "shooting targets" are drawn upon the same scale, with particular attention to certain essential minutae, consequently a gun muzzle or a sighting hood has approximately its actual chance of being hit. The particular form of "striker," for localising hits, has been adopted after considerable trial with various systems. It will be found that this device affords some sort of equivalent for the moral effect of the personnel caused by damage to the matériel. It is rare to find a player "shooting" well after his ship has sustained heavy damage; very little is needed to make the aim wild. I must admit that this result is incidental rather than designed, the adoption of this device having been die to a desire to embody something that made direction easier than elevation, and did away with certainty. No tactical problem can be worked out on a basis of certainty in hitting. The accuracy obtainable is, perhaps, considerably higher than may reasonably be hoped for in action*; the necessity of keeping a game from taking too long to play compels that, but as a general rule accuracy is sufficiently difficult not to interfere with any evolution.

If, however, a nearer approximation to battle conditions is desired it is obtainable be reducing the rate of fire, or counting every two guns as one. It is, however, open to the objection that the chance element and the lucky shot get thereby a possibly undue value in a game that generally presupposes a comparative equality in gunnery on both sides, though it muist be borne in mind that the game allows great scope for neutralising superior gunnery by superior evolutions.

A word is necessary about the gunnery rules. It is exceedingly difficult to make a general allowance for shell. Against armour they are very likely to break without bursting in the act of perforation, but the pieces carried through are likely to effect considerable damage; consequently all shell, and also shot which would carry fragments through medium armour, are given one general effect against medium armour. Another difficult problem is the behaviour of very thick Harveyised plates. There is reason to believe that if 6-inch Harvey may be considered equal to 12 inches of iron, 9 may be barely equally to 18 and 18 not equal to 36 inches of iron.

There are also innumerable side issues. This is mentioned in order to draw attention to the fact that in the letter notation an attempt is made at an approximately general allowance.

The turning and other manoeuvring qualities of ships are allowed for upon a convention. With a pair of dividers and a certain amount of patience it is of course possible to give any vessel its exact circle, but this is avoided as an unnecessary complication. In an attempt to ram, with ships of equal or nearly equal speed, it is just possible that the use of such circles might be of utility, but in such cases umpire's decision is a simple substitute. The circle selected for general use is practically the average. In the case of ships whose circle is considerably beyond the average, a perhaps somewhat unduly larger circle is given, while very handy ships have a slight undue advantage. The approximation will, however, be found satisfactory for all ordinary purposes.

Speed is also subject to arbitrary convention much as the circles are. Slight individual differences of speed do not appear to be of prime importance where the evolutions of fleets are in question: where a slightly better speed would affect results, allowance is made (see Strategical Rules). "Scoring tables" - plan and elevation with all details as to armour, etc. - of any particular ship not given with the game can be procured from the publishers, and if necessary the corresponding "shooting targets" and model ships.

None of the "shooting targets" are named. The reasons for this will be found on page 15, under the head of "General Notes."

My best thanks are due to Captain H.I.H. Grand Duke Alexander Mihailovitch of Russia, Imperial Russian Navy; Captain H. J. May, C.B., and Captain H.S.H. Prince Louis of Battenberg, K.C.B., Royal British Navy; and Lieutenant Kawashima, Imperial Japanese Navy, for looking over the proofs of the rules, and for all the kind interest they have taken in the game. I must also express my gratitude to Commander H. Russell Robinson Commander H. H. Campbell, Lieutenant Barry, and Mr. H. W. Metcalfe, all of the Royal Navy; to Mr. Kondo, of the Imperial Japanese Navy; and generally to the wardroom officers of H.M.Ss Majestic, Trafalgar, St. George (1894-8 commission), Royal Yacht, Mars, Alexandra, and Australia, and of H.I.J.M.S. Takasago, for their kindness in connection with many experimental games played on board their ships.

In conclusion it should be stated that all important ships of new type will be added to the game from time to time as they may be completed for sea, and for any new invention provision will at once be made in the rules. Any such changes will be announced in the Army and Navy gazette, Le Yacht, and one or two other papers; but, so far as possible, notice will also be sent to any shop known to be in possession of the game.

Any suggestions in the way of increased realism and simplicity, sent to me, c/o Sampson Low, Marston & Co., Ltd., Publishers, London, will be thankfully received and acknowledged. Any notes upon interesting actions will also be very welcome.

Portsmouth FRED T. JANE

June, 1898

* From certain experiments made at target practice in board the Takasago, there is, however, reason to believe that, unless the excitement of action largely affects results, the accuracy obtainable by game methods is not much too high for modern guns.

[ensign2547]

Don,

Yes, I have a complete run for the first 100 issues of JFS. I collected most over a 20 year period in the 1980s and early 90s, when prices were more reasonable and copies with original binding could be found. The majority of the older editions were purchased from the great naval book dealer, G.L. Green, unfortunately no longer with us.

BlackBat,

Jane's interest in warships went back to his teenage years. His first drawings were made in 1882 depicting the British ships participating in the bombardment of Alexandria. He then started a sketch book he titled Ironclads of the World.

In the 1898 All the World's Fighting Ships, Jane drew information mainly from the Bieber photo collection in preparing his drawings. The main purpose was to have in one volume illustrations of every class of warship in a format that could be used for identification, with illustration and data all on one page. The identification method was also enhanced with a series of silhouettes.

An additional purpose of the book was that it would form part of an integrated package with the Jane Naval War Game. Giving full information on ships and ordnance beyond what appeared in the rule book first published in 1898

The best history of Jane and his publications is Fred T. Jane: An Eccentric Visionary by Richard Brooks, published 1997.

I have attached photos related to the Naval War Game including the 1898 rule book and photos of a partial game, without ship models, that was recently found. I have never seen a contemporary photo of a Jane warship model. The ship models were @ 1/3000.

[Don Boyer]

Ensign: Like I said, completely green with jealousy! :)

Thanks for the post. glad you joined the forum, as questions do come up about Jane and his books that you will no doubt be the go to resident expert on. I have at least one a Jane's for every decade of the 20th century and one on either side, which will do as my wife will kill me if I add any more bookshelves to the house!:eek:

You too, BB -- I had read about the game, but never got into any details.

Don

[ensign2547]

Don,

Anytime you need any info on Janes , just contact me. I've also been collecting US Navy O.N.I. reports and World War II cruise books for the last 25 years, if you need any info, let me know. :)

[Don Boyer]

Ensign: Re the ONI reports -- see my PM to you.

Thanks,