The Battles Of The Java Seas 1942

[Kevin Denlay]

Gents (and Ladies),

Well, as I sit here writing this it was almost 66 years ago, to the minute, that then end of the ABDA fleet was taking place in the Java Sea. De Ruyter, Java, Kortenaer, Electra and Jupiter had been sunk two days ago. Perth and Houston about twelve hours ago and, right now, literally as I type this the IJN heavy cruisers Myoko, Ashigara, Nachi, Haguro and their attendant destroyers were engaging Exeter, Encounter and Pope. And we all know how that ended.

With the loss of Pope in a couple of hours time, the IJN owned the Java Sea and pretty much every other 'sea' in the vicinity!

No matter what one may think of the Japanese, in three months the they had completed a sea borne 'blitzkrieg' of awesome proportions and overwhelming authority.

A moments contemplation may be in order.

Kevin

Exeter painting from The Illustrated London News 1946
Pope image form Maru Special #95

[The Sailor]

I have contemplated. I am going to build and atomic bomb and use it.
Then I'm going to get another one ready and use that too.

[Kevin Denlay]

Well Sailor, I guess some people will never learn.

Maybe I have taken you worng but what, is the truth a bit unpalatable?

Or just can’t face the facts? I wouldn't have taken you for being like that.

I was not necessarily ‘praising’ the Japanese with my “A moments contemplation may be in order”. After all, by March 1st 1942 the allies had lost thousands of sailors since the start of the Pacific War, the Japanese very few, and I think a moments contemplation for those thousands of lost sailors is in order, don’t you? And now would be as could a time as any for that contemplation, given the timing.

And whether one wants to admit it or not, the fact is that the Japanese kicked our allied behinds/butts from one end of Asia to the other in those first three months of war with them! I call that ‘overwhelming authority’, wouldn’t you? Painful but true, but it’s a FACT.

K

[DJBlackburn]

I think your remembrance is both poignant and quite appropriate.

[Harley]

It still sends a shudder down my spine thinking of all those ships being sunk so far away from home. Very unpleasant.

I think what Kevin is trying to say is that Java Sea and the flourishes of battle which followed marked the effective end of the ABDA command - all the remaining fighting forces reverted to their original commands until they either surrendered to the Japanese or survived to become part of the various commands rolled out or expanded throughout 1942.

Harley

[Kevin Denlay]

No disrespect intended, but I think any notion of ABDA's "ending" would be disputable by those aboard the Haguro, years later.

Not sure what you are getting at here DJ with your reference to Haguro? What does Haguro's sinking in '45 (which I asume you are alluding too) have to do with ABDA except her having contributed the torpedo that sunk De Ruyter and Kortenaer and helping sink Exeter?

None of the DD's from 26th Destroyer Flotilla that sunk Haguro in Malacca Strait in '45 were involved previously in the ABDA command. And not only that I thought Haguro's demise was purely a British affair, as opposed to Java Sea where the 'others' were involved also.

ABDA's funeral pyre was the Java Sea, although it may have been a week or so later that Java finally surrendered and ABDA 'officially' ceased to exist.

Kevin

[The Sailor]

This moment of contemplation that you mentioned Kevin.

It wasn't clear what you were contemplating. The way you wrote it up sounded like you were saying that the Japanese forces had just sunk all our ships and were the new rulers of the Indian and Pacific Oceans and asked what we were going to do about it.

My answer was that we were going to do plenty.

[John Brown]

On a lighter note:

In 1995, at a commemorative event for the Br Pacific and East Indies Fleets I spoke to an ex HMS Exeter crew member. He told me that when she sank he was taken prisoner and his wife back in England heard nothing of him for the next 3 years. She did not know whether he was alive or dead for all that time.
He then went on to relate his experience of the battle and finished by saying:

'I was a prisoner for 1324 days. I ate 1324 bowls of rice and if I don't see the inside of a Chinese resturant until the day I die, that will be too bloody soon'

John

[The Sailor]

In answer here John, check out my earlier post on this.

http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showthread.php?t=612

It is Sunday morning here and we are off to church. Bye for now all.

[herakles]

The organisation and competence of the Japanese forces both on land and at sea was quite outstanding.

Our side was clearly unprepared and full of stereotypes which didn't help but we were well and truly beaten. Singapore was a calamity waiting to happen. The Price of Wales and Ark Royal were virtually given away. The Americans were hounded out of the Philippines. Australia was hopelessly unprepared.

But no taking it away from the enemy.

To me, it's a miracle that the Australian 9th Division cold make it to Australia undetected.

[Kevin Denlay]

This moment of contemplation that you mentioned Kevin.It wasn't clear what you were contemplating. The way you wrote it up sounded like you were saying that the Japanese forces had just sunk all our ships and were the new rulers of the Indian and Pacific Oceans and asked what we were going to do about it.My answer was that we were going to do plenty.

Point taken Sailor about the contemplating part of my contemplation not being crystal clear. Semantics, bugger.

However........................................... .re your other point above, the Japanese HAD just sunk all our ships that had remained in Asian waters and environs and WERE the new rulers of that part of the world.

Our 2nd defeat in the Indian Ocean i.e Hermes, Dorsetshire, etc, etc, (after our initial defeat south of Java) was still to come and the Japs brushed them off with about the same disdain they showed us in in those first three months in Asia. Lets face it, the Japs were on a roll, what more can be said, and it was still a few more months before that would be well and truly nipped in the bud.

I certainly wasn't 'asking' what we were going to do about it, on that I am very clear, it just took a while for us to get off the back foot. As a matter of fact given that very very very few of the IJN's warships remained afloat at the end of the war is testament to just what we did do about.

But, as of March 1st, 1942, we were in none too good a shape, having suffered some serious reverses in the previous three months, the period which I was specifically 'contemplating'.

K

[DJBlackburn]

The Price of Wales and Ark Royal were virtually given away.

They were, indeed....but to two different naval powers.

[Stan.J]

I think he meant The Prince of Wales and the Repulse

[astraltrader]

Nevertheless Herk was right - those two fine ships were given away. I have generally a lot of respect for Winston - but his actions were flawed at times and sending the POW and Repulse into action without air-cover was as flawed as it gets!
I appreciate the carrier originally sent with them became unavailable but at that point they should have been returned to British waters. The effect that Aircraft could have on Battleships without air-cover had already been proven at Taranto...

[John Brown]

Terry

A little bit hard on Winnie I think!

Yes, the writing was on the wall after Taranto and even to some extent, the Bismarck action where aircraft played a vital part. However, until POW and Repulse, no battleship had been sunk, in open water, by aircraft alone. At this point many still wrongly believed that a well handled Battleship could hold its own against attack by aircraft. The destruction of Force Z proved this not to be the case.

As they say...'hindsight is a wonderful thing'


John

[DJBlackburn]

Terry

A little bit hard on Winnie I think!

As they say...'hindsight is a wonderful thing'


John

For an informed insight to the events, decisions, and indecisions that led to the sinkings of the POW and Repulse, I strongly recommend the excellent book Hostages to Fortune, by Arthur Nicholson. You may be surprised by many things concerning Winnie and the gang.

Let's not forget that Churchill showed an amazing propensity for sticking his nose in (i.e. micro-managing) whenever, and wherever, it was least desirable. There were many times his Lordship bore direct responsibility for unnecessary deaths and material losses.

Without a moment's pause, Crete and PQ17 along with the battle off Malaya, as three of his biggest blunders. He even tried doing it during the Bismarck affair, but thankfully, Tovey had better sense than to follow his superior's wishes.

Winnie was a fine statesman and a national hero, but did not belong in the same business as Cunningham, Somerville, Vian, Walker, et. al. He just couldn't play in the same league, no matter his high position.

[Kevin Denlay]

Terry, A little bit hard on Winnie I think!

What has been said here is nothing compared to what, it seems, most of the Force Z survivors think of poor old Winnie. I assume some / most of you have seen documentary's on PoW and Repulse losses that include 'current' interviews with survivors? The docos I have seen, and only saw one on History Channel (I think it was) recently, the survivors still placed the blame squarely on him. And with some understandable 'venom' to boot.

K

[herakles]

I guess hindsight does have 20/20 vision. Winston clearly was flawed in his thinking at times. But this was a time of "great statesmen" and big thinkers and he fitted this mould well. British pollies were in the business of big decision making, decisions that affected millions of lives.

He made grave mistakes. Crete was one. I do wish people would refer to this episode as "Greece". Crete was just the last tragic incident. Gallipoli was another, arguably his worst. I'm sure we would agree however that he was our secret weapon in WW2 and without him things would have been very different.

I have no doubt that there are some remarkable matters that one day will be made public, matters that are going to rock us all over the running of WW2. Matters that will change how we view this time. Matters that will not paint Winston in a good light.

Did he actually write all those extraordinary speeches?

[astraltrader]

Kevin and DJ - I take it in other words that you are in agreement with what I posted?

[herakles]

I think he meant The Prince of Wales and the Repulse

I did! How silly of me! A combination of a lousy keyboard (you don't know how irritating it is) and early morning thinking. Too early!

[Kevin Denlay]

Terry I am in agreement, but my knowledge base is relatively limited in what transpired in levels of the 'higher, higher' prior to the ships demise, so I stand to be proven wrong. I'll certainly go along with the survivors statements too, as thats whose butts were on the line.

K

[herakles]

We have discussed these matters elsewhere here Kevin. Can't think just where right now.

[astraltrader]

Just checking, my friend!

[DJBlackburn]

Kevin and DJ - I take it in other words that you are in agreement with what I posted?

I am in agreement.

BTW--I was just poking Herk's ribs a little about Ark Royal, of course ;)

[herakles]

Hmmmm. I'll have you swabbing the decks full time and cleaning the Heads Leading Seaman!

[Kevin Denlay]

If we are going to talk about the great man, ney, even disparage him, and whatever his flaws or poor decisions may have been, (which everyone makes at times, as after all, even WC was human {I think}) he was a great man for the times he lived in, so a picture or two seems in order.

Both taken on board his beloved ship, PoW.

From the book "One Year of Life, The Story of HMS Prince of Wales by A and G Franklin".

K

[Kevin Denlay]

Oh, and BJ, as far as I am aware, ABDA command WAS dissolved in Java prior to the fall. First I heard this wasn't the case. If I should be wrong, which of course is a possibility, I would certainly like to be directed to some literature that definitely states this, for my own education.

I am not saying allied commands didn't cooperate and/or fight together later, but they certainly were no longer called ABDA or under any ABDA like banner.

Please, someone, anyone, correct me if I am wrong.

K

[astraltrader]

As far as I am aware ABDA command was only in existence for barely 3 months. Between January and March 1942. I personally have no quarrel with its genuine attempt to utilise positive allied co-operation - just with the forces placed at it`s disposal, which at this stage of the war against Imperial Japan was woefully inadequate...
Also I would like to clarify my opinion of Winston - in order to prevent any possible misinterpretation. Despite a brilliant career his great enthusiasm and drive occaisionally led to to the making of a certain number of blunders that could and should have been avoided. The whole debacle of the Dardanelles operations in WW1 and the loss of the POW and Repulse in WW2 are two such examples. Nevertheless he was undoubtably one of Britain`s truly great men. All traces of Empire died with him...

[qprdave]

I think that I am just about to make a fool of myself!!!!!!

Can someone please tell me what or who is ABDA.

[Harley]

qprdave, here's a quick summary of the American-British-Dutch-Australian Command at Wikipedia;


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABDA

Despite being a devout Tory (or because of it, perhaps...) I disparage WSC regularly to anyone who'll listen. Putting aside all he did in the 30s to warn against the rise of facism, it was to a considerable extent his own damn fault that Britain was so poorly placed to fight the Second World War. Who can really say what the full repercussions of the Dardanelles were (like the ripple in time). Then one has his tenure as Secretary of State for the Colonies (acrimonious to say the least due to Ireland), then his crowning achievements were the 10 year rule, putting England back on the Gold Standard and provoking the 1926 General Strike (note, please, the heavy sarcasm). After the Washington Naval Conference he took great delight in using his experience as First Lord of the Admiralty to poke holes in the Navy's budget requests. His resolute opposition to Indian Home Rule caused yet more future trouble as well as helping to put him in the ''wilderness''.

And his wartime decisions? The most foolish of them has to be his little escapade in the idiotic Dodecanese Campaign. It would have been akin to Macarthur deciding to launch an all-out invasion of New Britain in 1945 - strategically unimportant and wasteful in lives. But oh well, rant over...

Harley

[astraltrader]

As I said Simon the man had his flaws. However if you were to list his achievements including leading this country through its darkest hours - you would have needed to have typed a lot more than you did...

[herakles]

There's no doubt that Winston was larger than life. I can never think of him without recalling his extraordinary exploits during the Boer War. This was true Boys Own stuff.

Then there's his stunning command of our language. His history of our peoples though biased is most impressive.

I have always felt that he inherited some of the instability of his father.

One day we will learn what really happened between him and Roosevelt. Now we can only surmise. I am sure we are all going to be shocked by it though. Then there's the stand he took over the menace of Stalin. He sure was cut out of the loop toward the end of the war. Roosevelt and Stalin did it their way without him. The Americans are IMHO responsible for the ensuing Cold War. I can still see Monty jumping up and down in frustration at being held back from crossing the Rhine. I have a low opinion of Eisenhower but he was just obeying orders.

His role re the Dardanelles has to be seen in the fuller context of the in-fighting between the Easterners and the Westerners in Whitehall. Whether to open a second front or not. The dominating role of Fisher in the Admiralty. The failure of the RN in March '15, the terrible reversals in Belgium/France in '15 and the appointment of Hamilton to command the expedition.

Then there's his arrogance in the handling of the Australian 9th Division by demanding they go to Burma. From our position at the top of the World (cough) we feel that Winston was prepared to sacrifice Australia etc in order to achieve his aim for England.

As Astraltrader said: Winston was a man of Empire and it died with him.

[herakles]

I think that I am just about to make a fool of myself!!!!!!

Can someone please tell me what or who is ABDA.

I too appreciated that link explaining ABDA. It strikes me that it was a grand strategy doomed even before it started. At least they had the foresight to put Wavell in command. I almost mention him in the same breath as Bill Slim. Almost!

[Harley]

Dare I say it Terry, what were his achievements? Effectively begging the United States to prop us up until we could invade mainland Europe and finish off the Hun, to use the colloquiallism. If you read the book 1940 by Clive Ponting, Churchill seriously considered a negotiated cease-fire in 1940 after the Fall of France (as one would, to be fair) but was dissuaded by his Lord President of the Council and Senior member of the War Cabinet, one Neville Chamberlain.

I find it very sad if we British have to repeatedly say that one man saved us from surrendering to the Germans and throwing in the towel. Very, very sad.

Harley

[DJBlackburn]

Oh, and BJ, as far as I am aware, ABDA command WAS dissolved in Java prior to the fall. First I heard this wasn't the case.
Please, someone, anyone, correct me if I am wrong.

K


No need--you are correct of course, my apologies. I had something else entirely in mind, not ABDA. :confused:

[stewart mcloughlin]

Yes Winnie made some mistakes.
John 8 : 7. Let he who hath not sinned .....
Name me a General or politician or businessman or any other member of the management chain who hasn't. I certainly did. He made an informed decision on the best of his experiences and information. If he got 51% right, he'll do for me.
Jonny Wilkinson misses the occasional goal kick. Do you take him off the Park?
The removal at one of our darkest hours from Tobruk of the Australian Division, at the absolute insistence of the recently elected Australian Government, to be sent home to face a possible (?) immediate Japanese invasion, when Africa was already invaded and the threat through the Middle East to the Caucasus was facing us, was having to respond to the wider picture. His deliberate, and underhand (?) delay in sending them home can be excused.
At the time, there was North Africa, the North Atlantic and the Far East on his plate. Stress!!! What's that??? Give the man a break.
Now we've got to Eisenhower's back. What with Patton / Monty, Winnie / Roosevelt, beached whales at Anzio, Mark Clark glory seeking in Rome. Will the storm give us a window to invade?
It's a wonder these people just don't go off to the happy farm and say b.........s to it.
Great men make great decisions, not all the time, but they make them nevertheless.
Stewart

[herakles]

Your comments are well made Stewart and undeniably correct. As I've said before, hindsight has 20/20 vision.

Just one point about the Australian 9th Division. And this is a point I covered in another thread here. Churchill moved them from North Africa and had them on the way to Burma. Despite the earnest request from the Australian Govt. to have them sent back to Australia. They asked three times then demanded their return. By then the troop ships were well on the way to Burma. The war against the Afrika Corps had been fought and won by then.

They were not sent from Tobruk. Rather they had already helped win the victory at Alemain. Monty had placed them on the crucial right flank. As such, we cannot excuse Churchill for this.

Note too that Churchill removed our 6th Division from North Africa as well and had them sent to Greece to fight that most unfortunate campaign. And what was left of them after that went on to Syria and a glorious success against the Vichy French.

[Kevin Denlay]

Jonny Wilkinson misses the occasional goal kick. Do you take him off the Park?

Well said Stewart, all except your statement about that little tosser Wilkinson. How can we (the antipodeans amongst us that is) ever forget or forgive that kick! Take the blighter of the park, PLEASE.

K

[Kevin Denlay]

Although nothing to do do with Java Sea per se, another photo of Winnie, this time with Capt Leach of PoW, another casualty of PoW sinking, from the same book as above.

K

[stewart mcloughlin]

Sorry Herakles, but you need to check your daily diary for the campaigns.
The Aussies were moving out of Tobruk despite the impassioned pleas of Winston and Auchinleck and the sympathy of Roosevelt up to 26 October 1941 (that's 41)
The Japanese were going into Burma (et al India) from 16 January, 1942. Aussie division en-route Burma/Home during this period.
Tobruk fell 20th June, 1942 (that's 42).
Alamein was 23rd October, 1942 (my dad was there).
During the evacuations and re-supply with other troops / equipment of Tobruk, a minelayer (Latona), 2 destroyers, 22 other ships were lost, 18 seriously damaged including 9 merchant ships and 2 hospital ships, with appropriate casualties, so the Aussies had been and gone by Alamein.
Thought Jonny would touch an Antipodean nerve.
Kind regards.
Stewart

[herakles]

Thank you for your post Stewart.

The facts as I understand them are these:

The 9th Div was ordered into Tobruk on 6 Apr 1941 along with the 18th Brigade of the 7th Div. and successfully defended the place for over 6 months. At the request of the Australian Govt. most were withdrawn in October 1941 but the 2/13 Battalion remained until relieved in December. During this time the 9th Div suffered 3164 casualties.

They were then deployed to northern Syria where they guarded the Turkish-Syria border.

The Australia Corps (the 6th and 7th Divs) were withdrawn to Australia in early 1942 but the 9th Div remained. They stayed in return for an extra division of American troops being sent to Australia. On 26 June the 9th was ordered back to Alemain and were in place by 6 July 1942. Rommel started his attack on 1 July. The first phase was not successful for our forces. They captured Ruin Ridge on 26 July but soon suffered reverses and eventually the 2/28 was forced to surrender.

The second battle of Alemain lasted between October 23 to Nov 5 1942. The 9th Division, along with a New Zealand, a South African, an Indian and a British division, grouped as the 30th Corps, formed the main attack in the north. It was after Rommel failed to stop the Australians at Thompson's Post on 1 Nov that he realised the battle was lost and planing for the withdrawal started.

Montgomery's first act after the battle was seen to be won, was to travel to 9th Division HQ and thank them for their redemption of the initially-failed 10th Armoured Corps attack. The commander of 30 Corps stated that the El Alamein breakthrough was "only made possible by the 9th Division's Homeric fighting"

The 9th Div started departing the area 24 Jan 1943 being ordered by Churchill to Burma. En route they were at last diverted to Australia and arrived Fremantle 18 Feb 1943. As I said above, this part of their history I explain in another thread.

http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1017

To complete the story, the 9th Div arrived in New Guinea late July 1943.

Overall the 9th Div suffered 12,096 casualties before being disbanded in 1946.

Many tributes were paid to the Division, but what many would regard as the ultimate tribute was paid some considerable time later-on 6 June 1944 (D Day), when the Allies landed in Normandy.

With the freedom of the world at stake, Major-General Francis de Guingaund, Chief of Staff of Field Marshal Montgomery's Land-force Headquarters, said:

"My God, I wish we had 9th Australian Division with us this morning".

[stewart mcloughlin]

No dispute of the activities of the excellent 9th Australian Division, they were there at Alamein with the 51st on the coastal flank from Kidney Ridge.
Also at Alamein were the 2nd New Zealand led by the brilliant Freyberg, the 1st South African, 4th Indian, Free French Brigade and the four armoured divisions, so the 9th A.D. didn't do it on their own. You'll have us believing Errol Flynn was amongst them next. It's a good thing that the N.Z., S.A., Indian and F.F. didn't have the same outlook as the Australian Government or else we'd be governed from Brussels and you'd be driving a Toyota by now.
The fact remains though that the Australian troops were taken out of the Tobruk threatre, on the pure insistence of Prime Minister Fallon and later Curtis, with their binocular vision of the threat to Australia.
Quite understandable to some extent as they were elected to primarily represent their Commonwealth. But there was the wider picture. Those troops taken out of theatre had to be replaced by others who were newly formed and partly trained and diminishing the cover elsewhere.
The Royal Navy sustained losses in tonnage and casualties extricating those Australian troops under continuous attack from the Luftwaffe. Tonnage and escorts then had to ship them to Burma / Australia that could have been deployed elsewhere to the greater effort.
Roosevelt was caught between the two, and trying to mediate, mostly sympathetic to Winston because he too shared the bigger picture, sent the extra U.S. troops to Australia in an effort to pacify Curtis. All they did was to organise dances, drink beer and make babies before the Island hopping began, for no invasion came, and after the Japanese losses at the Battle of the Coral Sea in early May '42, none would take place.
On the wall in Winston's bunker he had a Map of the World for the big picture. On Curtis's office wall was a map of Australia. Curtis could be likened to the leader of the brass section, whilst Winston was conducting the whole orchestra.
Oh, and one thing I forgot was that other little expedition on Winston's table at the same time, that thing called Barbarossa, then at it's height in the Autumn of '41. So Winston really did have a plate full.
Winston and Curtis were doing the right thing for there own reasons. They called it as they saw it. Let's just thank them all, in and out of uniform, and be grateful.
Stewart

[herakles]

An interesting post Stewart.

There never was a PM called Fallon and the war-time PM was John Curtin.

The RN also suffered huge losses extracting Freyberg and the Allied troops from Greece and later Crete. Another campaign that should never have happened but Churchill was so insistent.

The battle of the Coral Sea was certainly most crucial in the Pacific theatre. But I feel you should examine the equally crucial battles in New Guinea in order to appreciate just how serious the situation was. Darwin had been bombed and the American fleet stationed there wiped out.
As well, Sydney had been attacked.

And of course Singapore had been lost along with the two RN ships.

As well, the entire South Pacific campaign was centred in Australia. A campaign that most certainly didn't have an equivalent in Europe. I'm not aware that the Americans spent their time drinking and making babies.

Australia had realised that Britain was unable - and as it now appears - unwilling, to come to their aid. Curtin had his eyes firmly set on the Pacific, realising that victory there was the key to the success of the war.

Finally, most Australians drive Toyotas.

[BB60]

All they did was to organise dances, drink beer and make babies before the Island hopping began, for no invasion came, and after the Japanese losses at the Battle of the Coral Sea in early May '42, none would take place.
Perhaps I could talk you into visiting another forum where one of these very dance organizing, beer drinking, baby making soldiers you mentioned posts fairly regularly. I am sure he would like to be made aware of your impression of his efforts during that time.

[Harley]

It's a fact that troops were still fighting on New Guinea right up to the end of the war. There were still troops fighting in the Philippines at the end of the war. And Iwo Jima. And New Britain. And many other places which the public thought had been dealt with. I'm sure there were plenty of U.S. troops on service duties but that is how war works. Some have to fight and some have to keep them fighting. It's a little known fact that in the British Army at the end of WWII there were more gunners (RFA, RHA, RGA) than infantry, and certainly not all gunners saw "action" as we'd term it, but they were certainly in danger. If there's one thing that WWII and after has proved it's that noone is safe anymore.

Harley

[astraltrader]

Simon whilst I would not say that one man saved us from the Germans and throwing in the towel - I would say that one great - yes flawed - but show me a great man who isn`t - but nevertheless a great man who quite clearly provided the overall leadership this country desperately needed during WW2. The people recognised it, despite the understandable anti-Tory vote in the 1945 elections. Churchill himself did not suffer from it in his seat. I like you can with hindsight highlight his flaws but I find it sad the you cannot see the more than compensatory achievements he did make...
We must agree to differ on this. As you are obviously both a highly intelligent and principled poster I accord your POV with respect - but I remain convinced that the vast majority of British people would not agree with you - especially those old enough to remember him and his unique character and presence rather than those who attempt to judge him through books alone...

[herakles]

Terry, there's no question of the extraordinary way that Winston guided us through the war. It needed a giant and we can all be most thankful that one was available. And you are quite right to remind us that no-one, however great isn't going to make mistakes.

Recent posts here have been discussing some of the mistakes he made. I'm certain this has been done at an academic level and that no-one here would want to sully Winston's character.

With time, information is slowly being released about the events of the war and before it. So with hindsight we can discuss the nature of them.

[Kevin Denlay]

Meanwhile, back in the Java Sea.............................

Thought I might add a list some books relating to said naval battles that took place there in Java Sea that I have in my library, should anyone be interested in either collecting same or furthering their knowledge of the B of JS at their local library.

Some are a bit dated, but all present a dramatic picture of that 'forlorn battle, as Winston called it.

K

The Battle of the Java Sea – Van Oosten (General overview)
Battle of the Java Sea – Thomas (General overview)
The Lonely Ships – Hoyt (General overview)
The Fleet the Gods Forgot – Winslow (General Overview / Houston survivor)
The Ghost That Died At Sunda Strait – Winslow (Houston survivor perspective)
The Last Battle Station – Schultz (Houston perspective)
Ship of Ghosts - Hornfischer (Houston perspective – published 2006)
The Dutch Navy at War – Kroese (Kortenaer survivor)
HMS Electra – Cain / Sellwood (Electra survivor)
Fight It Out – Gordon (Exeter Capt/survivor)
No Surrender – Johns / Kelly (Exeter survivor)
My Lucky Life – Falle (Encounter survivor)
Mr Michel’s War – Michel (Pope survivor)
*Proud Echo – McKie (Perth perspective)
*The Survivors – McKie (Perth perspective)
Age Shall Not Weary Them – Roberts (Perth / pre Java Sea ships ‘history’)
Bells of Sunda Strait – Burchell (Perth wreck site discovery/first dives)
Hr Ms Kruisers Java & Sumatra - J Anten (In Dutch but with MANY pictures)
Hr Ms Kruiser De Ruyter - H Legemaate, et al (In Dutch but with MANY pictures)
Capt Gordon's (of Exeter) After Action Report (submitted in 1945 after he was repatriated form Japanese POW camp)


(* Same book, different name.)

[stewart mcloughlin]

Dearest Herakles,
thank you for pointing out my errors in the names. Must get these glasses cleaned.
For the sake of forum accuracy, Fallon should of course read Fadden, who was Deputy Prime Minister and took over when Menzies resigned on 28th August, '41, therefore effectively making him Prime Minister.
He stayed in post until Curtin, not Curtis (soory for the typo), who took over in early October, '41, after a dispute over the Budget.
Kind regards
Stewart

[herakles]

No problem Stewart.

Just for the record, Fadden and Menzies were Conservatives (we call them Liberals) and Curtin Labour. He gained power after a general election. And he died in office, the job destroying him. He was replaced by Ben Chifley.

Labour lost the '49 election to Menzies and didn't get back into office until 1971.

Curtin's colleagues were against bringing the 9th Div back to Australia as they couldn't bring themselves to go against Churchill's wishes. The decision was Curtin's alone. It was also Curtin who convinced Roosevelt to use Australia as the main base for the Pacific War.

When Macarthur was appointed, the 2IC Middle East - Gen. Blamey, an Australian, became his 2IC.

Curtin is generally regarded as the finest PM of our country.

[Kevin Denlay]

Gents,

I would like to report, although I was not present myself, that it appears the remains of USS Pope DD225 has been located in the Java Sea by the dive vessel MV Empress during December 2008 in approx 32m/105ft of water.

I say ‘remains’ and ‘located’ (as opposed to ‘discovered’) as salvors (most likely Indonesian salvage divers given the depth) got to her first and, sadly, very little remains of her but a rusted iron ‘skeleton’.

To quote correspondence from the owner/skipper of MV Empress; “Indo salvors have blown the shit out of it, and now look like a whale carcass with bones sticking out everywhere.” And from another diver present “Reminded me of a big fish on a platter at dinner time. All that is left is a plate of bones and the parts that no one wants.”

However, besides her location being relatively close to a Japanese position for Pope’s sinking, and the divers observations of what remained of her shape/construction, enough ‘items’ were found on site, inc 4” warheads (salvors have taken the brass casings), .50 and .30 cal ammo, batteries made in USA, etc, for those involved to be convinced the wreck is that of USS Pope.

Location info, etc and images taken on site have been forwarded to the USN Historical and Heritage Command but I am not holding my breath for an ‘official’ statement any time soon. However given the experience / expertise of the divers involved I am convinced that what they found are the remains of Pope, the last allied surface warship sunk in the Java Sea naval battles that culminated on March 1st 1942, and the last to be ‘located/identified’ as it turns out.

Footnote: When MV Empress began her Java Sea wreck search in 2002 (for HMS Exeter at the time) only the location of four of the eleven ships lost between 27th February and March 1st were already known - HMS Jupiter, HMAS Perth, USS Houston and Hr Ms Evertsen. Empress (owner / skipper Vidar Skoglie) has now found ALL the ‘missing’ seven – Hr Ms Java / Hr Ms De Ruyter discovered 2002. HMS Electra 2003, Hr Ms Kortenaer 2004, HMS Exeter / HMS Encounter 2007 (all of which I was fortunate enough to be present for) and now USS Pope in 2008. (Among many many other wrecks discovered during that time, Empress also discovered the wreck of the submarine USS Perch in 2006, and although not actually ‘in’ the surface battles of the Java Sea, was sunk ‘in theatre’ on 3rd March 42.)

Quite an accomplishment for Empress/Skoglie if you ask me, but of course, I may be prejudiced. :)

Kevin

[CGRET]

Kevin,

Interesting article, Thank You.

You know what's funny about the USS Pope, in my reference to that ship is show's under the fate as WL(G,B). Now as to a response from the US on this finding, well I think they maybe will be lucky at best.

Regards
CGRET

[Kevin Denlay]

.....show's under the fate as WL(G,B).

Hi Dave,

Pardon my ignorance but can you clarify the initials WL(G,B) please?

Does WL stand for War Loss? If so that is of course correct for her fate.

But unsure of G and B (Would that mean 'by' Gunfire and Bombing? If so this is also correct for her fate.)

And yes, not holding my breath for any official USN comment. :)

K

[CGRET]

Kevin,

You are correct. As to not confuse any of us here are the meanings:

WL= War Loss
G=Gun Fire
B=Bombs


Regards
Dave

[stewart mcloughlin]

Amongst USS Pope's honours was being involved with other US naval and air forces in the sinking of the U-515 and capture of many members of the crew including it's Captain, Herner Wenke, north of the Azores.

Amongst U-515's 25 sinkings was the SS Ceramic where 655 were lost with her and a sole survivor captured by the U-boat. Henke was later shot whilst attempting escape from his US prison camp and is buried there.

"Upon arrival in a likely area at sunset on April 8, Gallery launched four night-flying Avengers. Patrolling under a full moon, one of the pilots found U-515 on the surface but his alarm was not heard in the hunter-killer group. After recovering these aircraft and learning of the contact, Gallery launched other Avengers and sent two of his five destroyer escorts, Pope and Chatelain, commanded by Edwin H. Headland, Jr., and James L. Foley, respectively, to chase down a possible radar contact. Believing they got sonar contacts, the ships dropped depth charges. When Pope reported seeing an oil slick rise to the surface, Gallery sent Avengers and two more destroyer escorts, Pillsbury and Flaherty, to the scene. Two Avengers positively sighted U-515 and dropped depth charges, the second in the face of flak. None of these attacks caused any noteworthy damage to U-515, but Henke, who dived, was caught in a net he could not escape.

After dawn on April 9–Easter Sunday, 1942 - Dan Gallery initiated a dogged hunt. When Henke surfaced warily to charge batteries and air the boat, an Avenger, piloted by Douglas W. Brooks, dived to attack. Henke’s automatic, rapid-fire 37mm flak gun jammed at the crucial moment, and Brooks dropped depth charges and forced Henke to dive deep (787 feet), by which time Guadalcanal and her screen were merely fifteen miles distant. Three of these warships, Flaherty, Pillsbury, and Pope, and other aircraft, closed rapidly on the scene and commenced a persistent and effective attack on U-515 that went on for seven hours that Easter day.

The close explosions eventually caused flooding in the after torpedo compartment that could not be staunched. Henke abandoned and sealed off that area, but the weight of the flooding aft pulled the bow up at a steep angle of thirty degrees. Henke attempted to decrease the angle by sending crew to the forward torpedo compartment, blowing tanks, and speeding up, but these measures failed and U-515 slid down backward to about 656 feet. There U-515 went out of control and shot to the surface, stern first, with a down angle of 45 degrees." EXTRACTS FROM “HITLER’S U-BOAT WAR – the hunted 1942-1945” ( Blair , Clay 1998, by Weidenfeld & Nicholson, ISBN 0 297 84077 0)

Stewart

[Kevin Denlay]

Amongst USS Pope's honours was being involved with other US naval and air forces in the sinking of the U-515 and capture of many members of the crew including it's Captain, Herner Wenke, north of the Azores.

Stewart, I believe the Pope you refer to is the Destroyer Escort DE134, the USS Pope that was named in honour of and subsequently built/launched after the loss of the Destroyer USS Pope DD225 (which was lost in the Java Sea on March 1st 1942) as you reference to U515 occurred, if I am not mistaken, in 1944.

And thanks for clarification Dave. All correct as Pope DD225 was lost from initially aerial bombs disabling her, her crew then attempting to scuttle her and finally, as she was sinking, gunfire from IJN cruisers.

K.

[stewart mcloughlin]

Kevin, thanks for putting me straight. Another object lesson in never taking the obvious for granted. My files amended accordingly.

Stewart

[Kevin Denlay]

Yes, it was 67 years ago to the very day that the Battle of the Java Sea took place. As I sit here writing this the three destroyers (Hr Ms Kortenaer, HMS Electra and HMS Jupiter) had already been lost and within several hours Hr Ms De Ruyter and Hr Ms Java would also be on the bottom of the Java Sea. And with them many many good men.

That "forlorn battle" as Winston Churchill termed it goes only part way to describing it. It is a real shame that so many brave men and gallant ships were lost in such a desperate and, sadly, fruitless cause.

It is also a shame that in the long run the Dutch sacrifice meant so little to most of the 'locals', vis a vis their holding onto their colony (and their homeland for many). And as for hampering the Japanese offensive, let alone disrupting it, well we all know that it slowed them down but one day. Although not for want of trying on Doorman's part by any means but............better to live and fight another day than be simply whittled away, however well meaning. What may have been seen as (and probably was) morally right for some was a tactical and long term disaster for many.

A moment in silent retrospection wouldn't be out of order.

Kevin.

Images below are from my collection. One entitled Sea Battle Off Surabaya (the Japanese name for the Battle of the Java Sea) was painted during the war by a Japanes artist and the other, a stamp set, from of all places, Tanzania, with the main image depicting the exact moment that HMS Exeter took the fateful hit to B Boiler Room during the late afternoon phase of the battle. And, as we know, it was all downhill from there!

[rimbo]

Hi Guys,
As we are on the subject of USS Pope DD225
Would anyone know if there is a Casualty (Memorial List) of the 30 men 1 KIA on that day 1-4 March 1942.and 29 died as POW
I can't seem to find one anywhere.

[Vegaskip]

Here is a painting of the capture of U boat, although the DE depicted is USS PILLSBURY

http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=62487&d=1259001113

Regards

[Kevin Denlay]

Hi Guys,Would anyone know if there is a Casualty (Memorial List) of the 30 men 1 KIA on that day 1-4 March 1942.and 29 died as POW

You are correct that only one man was KIA - by too large a scuttling charge unfortunately (or, was it a charge destroying sensitive bridge equipment, I can't recall) - and whose name I have seen somewhere (maybe on the After Action Report or in the book Mr Michels War?) Will try to locate for you tomorrow as it's midnight here and I am off to bed!.

Don't recall seeing a casualty list for the other 29, but maybe for the dead POW's, but where I don't know.

So unfortunately not much help.:(

[rimbo]

Thanks Very much anyway Kevin.

[Graham Barnes]

Hello,

Relevant portion from DD-225 's Action Report on her loss, and the death of sailor Davis:

"At 1240 (about), approximately ten minutes after this near miss, and while the ship was maneuvering to avoid the second level bombing [TEXT MISSING] flooding was beyond control and that there was already several feet of water above the deck of the after living compartments. From the bridge it was quite evident that the stern was settling fast. After a brief consultation with the Damage Control Officer (Executive Officer), preparations to abandon ship were directed. During the next ten minutes, the following steps were taken:


All depth charges aft were dropped, on "Safe" setting.
Watertight doors and ports were opened.
Secret underwater sound gear on bridge was destroyed by a demolition charge.
The M.W.B. was prepared for lowering.
Final steps for use of demolition charge in Forward Engine Room were completed. Confidential publication destruction was completed.
During this period, the ship was maneuvered on one engine to avoid level bombing attacks and all battle stations remained in readiness for action. When the storage battery was connected up in the circuit to the sound gear (a standard demolition circuit installed by the Navy Yard at Cavite in 1941) word was passed on the bridge for every-one to stand clear. When the Commanding Officer observed that all men were either lying face down on the deck or at a distance from the sound gear, he closed the switch on the forward bulkhead of the chart house. The resulting explosion was much greater than had been expected from the small demolition charge and a number of fragments pierced the chart house bulkhead. One piece of metal entered the chest of the Fire Control Talker Davis, Yeoman second class, then lying face down near the starboard pelorus, resulting in his death. As soon as the boat was ready for lowering the Commanding Officer directed that all wounded men be placed in the boat."

As far as I know there is no memorial to the other POPE men who perished as POWs.

[David Verghese]

Hi Guys,
As we are on the subject of USS Pope DD225
Would anyone know if there is a Casualty (Memorial List) of the 30 men 1 KIA on that day 1-4 March 1942.and 29 died as POW
I can't seem to find one anywhere.

Ron

I spent some time searching on the internet some time ago for such a memorial, but couldn't find one for USS Pope. USS Pillsbury does have some form of remembrance accorded to her.
As part of some wider research (mainly, but not exclusvely, concerning HMS Encounter) into the B. of J.S. I am putting together a listing of crew members of USS Pope who died in the POW camps. I am using the very useful website of mansell.com for this which has been painstakingly put together by Roger Mansell and his team in the US.
So far I have found 25 of the crew of USS Pope (Macassar, Fukuoka no.2) listed by name/date/service no/clinical cause of death. Such data for Mukden isn't listed so I seem to be missing four names. Some may have perished in other camps.
Would these names and associated data be of any use to you. I am aware that you organise the widely referenced HMS Cavalier site dedicated to losses aboard HM Destroyers. Perhaps you have the said details on the 29 POW deaths of men of the USS Pope.
I am reading " Mr Michel's War" at the moment but have yet to come across any mention of a memorial in this 1998 publication (Kevin, incidentally I managed to buy a Presidio copy in new pristine condition from a guy local to me).

Regards

David

[Kevin Denlay]

Here is a painting of the capture of U boat, although the DE depicted is USS PILLSBURY
http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=62487&d=1259001113
Regards


Gents

Just to clarify, there were two very different USS Pope’s, one sunk in the Java Sea in 42 (DD 225) which this thread was kicked off about, and a later one (named in honour of DD 225) that was involved in the Atlantic with U-boat’s as it were and survived the war (DE 134).

Photos of them below show the marked difference in appearance.

PS. David, hope you find Mr Michels War as interesting as I did! (Shame about HMS Exeter being alluded to as USS Exeter on back flap though. :-( However a forgivable one-off mistake in an otherwise good book, IMO.)

[Graham Barnes]

Dan Mullins' ANOTHER SIX-HUNDRED (self-published 1984) lists 27 men from POPE (by my count) who died with cause of death/location...

Two were said to have died in Java, which surprised me a little; the others were all at Makassar.

The single combat casualty was Y2/c Howard E. Davis.

There is an individual large memorial plaque dedicated to the ships of DesRon 29 at the Nimitz Museum in Fredericksburg, Texas (The National Museum of the Pacific War), placed on the Wall of Remembrance by the USS BLACK HAWK (AD-9) Association. There may be small individual plaques for POPE and/or PILLSBURY--I cannot recall with certainty--but there is definitely one for USS WHIPPLE (DD-217) in memory of her brave skipper, LTCDR Eugene Karpe, and a large plaque for USS EDSALL (DD-219) which lists every member of her lost crew.

[rimbo]

Dan Mullins' ANOTHER SIX-HUNDRED (self-published 1984) lists 27 men from POPE (by my count) who died with cause of death/location...

Two were said to have died in Java, which surprised me a little; the others were all at Makassar.

The single combat casualty was Y2/c Howard E. Davis.

There is an individual large memorial plaque dedicated to the ships of DesRon 29 at the Nimitz Museum in Fredericksburg, Texas (The National Museum of the Pacific War), placed on the Wall of Remembrance by the USS BLACK HAWK (AD-9) Association. There may be small individual plaques for POPE and/or PILLSBURY--I cannot recall with certainty--but there is definitely one for USS WHIPPLE (DD-217) in memory of her brave skipper, LTCDR Eugene Karpe, and a large plaque for USS EDSALL (DD-219) which lists every member of her lost crew.

Hi Graham,
From the 27 listed would it be possible for you to list the names/ranks etc. for me? If so i can send my email address.
many thanks

[culverin]

Karel Doorman is held in the highest esteem in his native Country.
Already he has been honoured in having 3 warships named in his memory by the navy he served so faithfully, but ultimately, so fruitlessly.
There was a certain inevitability regards the outcome of this defiant act, but the war in that theatre was still young with an enemy full of optimism and savouring its swift successes.
The RN paid a high price. The British and Dutch Empires a higher one.
It would be a further 30 Months before the RN would take an active part in operations in this region and again it would be under another allied Admiral.
Ultimately, the Japanese were to pay the highest price of all. But it came with huge long term dividends.

[jainso31]

There has been quite a lot of concern shown by Forum members over the two Battles of Sirte 1941/42.I wish to follow this up with this final series of setbacks in 1942 in the Battle for Dutch East Indies and the damage it did to the British Navy, which I hasten to add was NOT irrecoverable.
Do please comment on the handling of each sides naval foces.

jainso31





http://www.combinedfleet.com/battles/Java_Campaign

[Dreadnought]

Java Seas 1942 threads merged

[jainso31]

Sorry Clive -did look for another thread-"Search" at the time showed nothing.

jainso31

[Dreadnought]

Absolutely no problem ....

You have to outwit the search engine ... I searched "Java" on its own, knowing that if I had included "seas" it would have ignored "sea", and vice versa, and hence would not have shown up.

[jainso31]

Clive
I can see you aren't an FM for nothing-we must learn whilst we live. I am hoping that I can reinvigorate this thread-hopefully not everything been said.

[jainso31]

It has been said that the Japanese were riding high,seemingly invincible.They
would ultimately pay a very high price for there arrogance;but did the post war dividends redress the final horror and it's aftermath??

jainso31

[Graham Barnes]

Hello,

"...did the post war dividends redress the final horror and it's aftermath??"
I suspect this is a rhetorical question, but offer the thought that for those civilians and military personnel who suffered through the 1931-1945 period, along with POWs and the local populations of occupied countries, it seems unlikely. But, for corporations, financiers, & their ilk, it was another matter.

As regards the NEI Campaign & Java specifically, GB put rather small naval forces into play there, so I can't see how it damaged her navy all that severely...Their focus was always--and understandably so--really on Malaya/Singapore. For some reason Layton could not grasp that Singapore, as weakly defended as it was known to be, never mattered all that profoundly to the Americans.
And in fact the British later had to be constantly prodded by their other Allies to utilize their warships in the Java campaign. Remember that EXETER & company didn't reach Surabaja until mere hours before the final battles began.

There were arguments up to the last minute, too, about removing four of the best RN destroyers from ABDA after Singapore fell. I believe ADM Hart (or perhaps Glassford) managed to talk them out of that.

What was mortal, however, was the loss of Force Z, Malaya, and Singapore, which was indeed a blow--in terms of materials/resources and prestige--from which the empire in the Far East could never recover...

[jainso31]

Hello Graham
Japan sowed the gale that swept through the Far East; but reaped the "cliched"whirlwind for her "audacity"ie the A bombs! Look at her now, sitting on the right side of the throne,prosperous and burgeoning-all is forgiven-the dividends of the aftermath.
What dividends did the UK reap from having been on the winning side-bankrupt via Lease Lend Loans and Empireless-and where are we now? A US poodle perhaps??
PS What do think of the Joint Fleet's organisation and handling during this citical period.?

jainso31

[Graham Barnes]

Hello,

"PS What do think of the Joint Fleet's organisation and handling during this citical period.?"

Does this mean the ABDA fleet (or, the Sacrifice Armada as the Japanese liked to call it) ?

Of course as regards Japan, one can hardly say "All is forgiven." I (have known and) still know too many ex-POWs of the Japanese for that...But of course Big Money never cares about the human cost, as long as it's making profits, does it?

[jainso31]

Yes-I do mean the polyglot collection of warships-the Sacrafice Fleet, seemingly under a tenuous command system,which came to grief bit by bit.
Just what were the major flaws in it's handling???

[Graham Barnes]

Hello,
In memory of the futile US navy campaign (generally known as ABDA) in the SW Pacific in Dec/Jan/Feb/Mar, 1942, and loss of so many excellent officers and men, here's a pic commemorating their sacrifices.


"Lest We Forget"

'GB'

[Abbeywood.]

Hi, Graham,
I also concur with your sentiments regarding the loss of ships and men at the early months of the 2nd World War in the SW Pacific, as the Japanese captured the islands of the south-east Asian countries.
The principal actions took place in the Java Sea and involved the ships of the Allied British, Dutch and American, (ABDA) Force under the command of Admiral Karel Doorman, RNN.
On the 27th Feb' 1942, the British lost the destroyers HMS 'Electra', and HMS 'Jupiter, while the Dutch lost two cruisers, HNMS 'Java' and HNMS 'De Ruyter', along with the destroyer RNS 'Kortenaer'.
Having licked their wounds on the 28th Feb', the following day, !st March, the surviving Allied ships were picked off piecemeal by Japanese cruisers and destroyers, and also Japanese air attacks.
Further British losses were the heavy-cruiser HMS 'Exeter', the Australian cruiser HMAS 'Perth' along with the US cruiser USS 'Houston'.
The US Navy also lost the destroyers USS 'Pope', USS 'Edsall', and USS 'Pillsbury'. The Dutch lost the HNMS 'Evertsen' and the British lost HMS 'Encounter'.
Between the 2nd and 6th of March the Allies lost a further nine ships, as the islands of the Dutch East Indies were over-run, although one ship, the USS 'Stewart' was recovered, and after repairs, was incorporated into the IJN as patrol boat, P.102, sailing under 'the Rising Sun' until the end of the War, when she was recovered by the US Navy.
Regards
Pete'

[astraltrader]

Hello,
In memory of the futile US navy campaign (generally known as ABDA) in the SW Pacific in Dec/Jan/Feb/Mar, 1942, and loss of so many excellent officers and men, here's a pic commemorating their sacrifices.


"Lest We Forget"

'GB'

Graham as you have already previously contributed to the existing thread dealing with both the ABDA force and the 1942 Battle of the Java Sea, I was surprised to read that you started a new thread describing the outnumbered ABDA force [which is an acronym for American, British, Dutch, Australian warships] as a "US Navy campaign"which is hardly accurate. I do agree though that many ships along with their brave officers and men were lost in actions against a vastly superior enemy.

Anyway I have added your post along with the reply from Pete [Abbeywood] to the original thread.

[John Odom]

I knew a man who after surviving the sinking of the USS Oklahoma at pearl was transfered to the USS Stewart at Manila, and was with her when she entered the drydock at Surabaya. He had some real stories! He is now deceased.

[Graham Barnes]

Hello,

Yes, I'm well aware of what ships were lost, and when...

My post was to commemorate USN losses, which were by far the heaviest in terms of casualties, I believe. It was not meant to ignore other navies, of course.

My phrasing may have been too imprecise for hypersensitive micrologists in search of offense, but it was, as I said, to commemorate USN losses in the so-called ABDA campaign. For that I make no apologies.

"GB"

[patroclus]

Hello,

Yes, I'm well aware of what ships were lost, and when...

My post was to commemorate USN losses, which were by far the heaviest in terms of casualties, I believe. ...... "GB"


Can you put a figure on that? I am surprised that USN casualties in the ABDA Command exceeded those of the British Commonwealth ships and the ships of the Netherlands.

[jainso31]

Casualties are given in this text-I would think,setting casualties against ship losses -the US Butcher's bill was the least of all.

jainso31






http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Java_Sea

[Wellbran]

Just like to add here do not forget the Op Ten Noort hospital ship which was also later taken over by the Japanese she was crudely disguised (given a false funnel) and renamed Tenou Maru she was sunk later in the war.

[Graham Barnes]

The topic was BATTLES (plural) of the Java Sea...and my remarks were directed to total casualties in the Java Campaign by the USN...not at THE Battle of the Java Sea alone...

~700 dead on HOUSTON
450+ dead on PECOS
185+ dead on EDSALL
175+ dead on PILLSBURY
160+ dead on ASHEVILLE

That's in excess of 1,670 dead on just those 5 ships...and of course there were other USN casualties.
So, total it up yourself. Not insignificant figures, and certainly as high as & probably higher losses than the British, Australian, or Dutch ships. (Our partners in ABDA.) The losses of trained, quality personnel on PECOS, EDSALL, and ASHEVILLE were particularly unnecessary and pointless, and deeply rankled ADM Thos. Hart...although he made no public criticism of the decisions by other commanders which led to these casualties.

[Wellbran]

The topic was BATTLES (plural) of the Java Sea...and my remarks were directed to total casualties in the Java Campaign by the USN...not at THE Battle of the Java Sea alone...

~700 dead on HOUSTON
450+ dead on PECOS
185+ dead on EDSALL
175+ dead on PILLSBURY
160+ dead on ASHEVILLE

That's in excess of 1,670 dead on just those 5 ships...and of course there were other USN casualties.
So, total it up yourself. Not insignificant figures, and certainly as high as & probably higher losses than the British, Australian, or Dutch ships. (Our partners in ABDA.) The losses of trained, quality personnel on PECOS, EDSALL, and ASHEVILLE were particularly unnecessary and pointless, and deeply rankled ADM Thos. Hart...although he made no public criticism of the decisions by other commanders which led to these casualties.

so you did not add USS Pope or Peary? Peary is curious as I had contact with one of the Pope's crew up until recently and he swore blind that Peary was refloated and was operational with the IJN ( Edsall was a very tragic story. )

[John Odom]

I have just finished reading "The Fleet the Gods Forgot." A well written history of the USN Asiatic Fleet at the beginning of WWII and the operations of the ABDA "fleet."
.

[jainso31]

The premises of the joined threads seems to have clouded the issues:-
1)The ABDA Command Structure did not work and the Naval Force was destroyed with 2300 dailors Killed and
2)whether the "Butcher's Bill" for the USN was greater than or less than the
the losses sustained by British ,Dutch and vAustralian naval Force.
It was a an IJN victory is indisputable because the ABDA plan did not work.
Ps John Odom's suggestion is a good one.
jainso31

[OhioMike]

If you folks dont mind another Yanks perspective.....ABDA was a futile but honorable attempt to achieve the impossible. Interpreters were needed for the interpreters! No common signals or even common frequencies! No realistic joint meetings ahead of the Java actions to even work out fleet placement. But, they tried. The sheer number of deaths will never be known.(NO factual listing has ever even been attempted on the number of civil shipping destroyed attempting to flee Java or the NEI to austrailia and the Indian ocean). I just recently read a very good book, the Blue sea of blood by Donald Kehn about the sinking of the Esall but surpriseingly containing more info than expected about the ABDA situation as well. A Great read highly recommended! I wont critizise the Dutch for their handling of the Java Sea battle or even the ABDA fiasco, they were backed against the wall with litterally nothing left! Panic will cause the less than brilliant to do less than brilliant things! The japanese actions were at best confusing and later contributed to their material shortages and thus to a sooner defeat than was necessary. The need for all the forces present south of Java to so called MOP up the escapeing ABDA forces and civilians was if anything overkill. Or just plain murder! The Java sea battles takes on an even grimmer perspective when you start studying the post war trials and their falure to indict even 2% of the war criminals. The Southwest pacific battles produced the least amount of returning POWS than any other action thru-out the entire war! With the obvious exception of China! No one will ever have a firm numbers on those casulties....Millions at least! As roosevelt was later to comment...The asiatic fleet and as a result the forces associated with it was there till the end to delay the inevitable! Buy time for???? Well, we know what they were buying!

[astraltrader]

I agree with Mike in that the whole ABDA command was futile and doomed from the start. I cant really see much point in trying to separate the number of American casualties from those suffered by the other participating countries but that is just my view.

They were Allies and the casualties were grievous.

[Graham Barnes]

Hello,

Wellbran wrote:
"...so you did not add USS Pope or Peary? Peary is curious as I had contact with one of the Pope's crew up until recently and he swore blind that Peary was refloated and was operational with the IJN ( Edsall was a very tragic story. )"
POPE had no battle casualties apart from a single sailor killed by her own scuttling charges. 151 men survived the sinking & were made POWs.

PEARY should, I suppose, be included although she had little to do with the Java naval campaign, really. But, those losses just add to the totals and strengthen my point.
Your former POPE crewman has confused the story of PEARY with that of USS STEWART (DD-224),that's all.

Admiral Hart was haunted for the remainder of his days--and he lived another 30 years nearly--by these unnecessary losses. VADM Helfrich appears to have cared less, and even went so far in his (highly subjective) Memoires to criticize the performances of HMAS PERTH and USS HOUSTON in the final days, saying they could have sold their lives "more dearly" had they remained off Surabaja on the night of Feb 28th to contest Takagi's forces...and goes on to carp at the great last fight of PERTH and HOUSTON at Sunda Strait, yet, at the same time Helfrich excuses or glosses over the inexplicable behaviour of his DDs EVERTSEN and WITTE DE WITH, both of which found excuses to avoid combat, and even orders to depart with other non-Dutch warships. The latter was instructed to escort the EXETER group, and the former was to go with PERTH and HOUSTON. Neither did as instructed, and always a number & variety of excuses are given.

Most appallingly, Helfrich's Memoires states that EDSALL and WHIPPLE made it to Tjilatjap with those fighter pilots & crews from LANGLEY safe and sound. An absurd falsehood, and it remains inconceivable to me that he made such a statement in print...but, I do grasp the WHY...

It is not hard to understand the fury and regret that Thomas Hart felt for years after. All the more bitter--to my mind--is the utter neglect in the United States to this very day of the Asiatic Fleet's end. Just two months ago, Naval Institute's Naval History magazine published a feature article on the navy in China waters, and the Asiatic Fleet. Not one word was printed about the fate of this small, outmoded, but very courageous organization.
And that, as they say, is not acceptable.

[Wellbran]

My Father was always bitter about the whole thing he used to say that there was no plan, He sort of blamed the dutch...no correction He hated the dutch. Yes it does make me mad when I oen up one of the several million Naval WW2 books you can get in "The works" WH smith or Waterstones or somewhere and I turn to that period and there is nothing, it goes like this Pearl Harbor...(if you are lucky)>> Battle of the Coral sea...and then Medway. My daughter is in Secindary year 9 and they are going to do the Pacific region in WW2 for history and the A bombs, I told her Teacher I have an interest in it, and he said oh good she can do that for her project after Xmas.....HAHAHAHA!! that will be his big mistake as I will make sure my daughter tells the real story....History teacher running fo his life in panic!!! hahahahaha!!!!

[derek s.langsdon]

Jim,

The Java tale is probably the best of my pull-out bunch- soons get
the heading clarified, will post it.

derek-L

[Dave Hutson]

Jim,

The Java tale is probably the best of my pull-out bunch- soons get
the heading clarified, will post it.

derek-L

Derek,

When you post on the above please PM me so I don't miss it. I have a vested interest in Java as my Father died there and I have many friends ex POW's.

Dave H

Sorry Mod's will get back on thread now.

[ludsie]

In my opinion the abda experiment didn't work but did buy some time. These men and ships fought corageously for their countries and should be remembered for their heroic sacrifice

[OhioMike]

In my opinion the abda experiment didn't work but did buy some time. These men and ships fought corageously for their countries and should be remembered for their heroic sacrifice

Agree with everything except the buying time part! The only time bought was the fact that the NEI even existed and as a result preoccupied the Japanese long enough to never get to invadeing Austrailia! The ABDA command didnt slow the Japs down for even one day! I cant blame the Dutch for their failure to understand combat arms, let alone naval warfare! What experiences did they have in the last 200 years prior to that? The Asiatic fleet was a garrison force not trained for combined arms combat although they had trained together to some degree off the Phillipines, that training was rare and ineffective due to china station requirements in the few years prior to Dec.7th. I blame Macarthur! Read "Macarthurs Pearl Harbor" and enough said! Had his forces been able to hold the Japanese for even a short while longer, the NEI missions may have been postponed or even outright cancelled. Those forces would have been diverted to assist Yamashita and maybe damaged to such a degree to paralize further movement south for some time? It would have at the least given a line along the NEI to build from instead of starting from scratch at Guadalcanal 6 months later! Would a could a!!!! After writing this and reading it i realized the missdeed i had done to austrailians! They deserve more respect and admiration than any can bestow on them for their holding of southern new guinea! Namely Port moresby! That took real courage and toughness!

[John Odom]

If any one deserves more than the average amount of blame for the loss of southeast asia, including the Philippines, it is MacArthur!

[Hank]

Well, John, I am in agreement regarding a lack of offensive movement on the part of the Allies prior to the Hawaiian attack and the Count General Terauchi's movement apon the Phillipines and points South. Aviation was directly under MacArthur's control through General Brereton. That it played the greater part of but a target during the massive air power build up unleashed, mostly IJN, during the attacks on the Islands. The weather was foul, the Japanese having greater experience regarding operations flying in conditions less than optimal. Our Bomber guys were, for the most part, Greenhorns.

Had I have been in the Southern islands during the period, my triggers would have been tripped by the Japanese invasion of Siam. The loss of a French colony, with no apology, would have indicated which way the wind was blowing as far as Japanese military intent, signalling the events of December, 1941. Regards

[Don Boyer]

A fine collection of posts here, with the salient points highlighted -- failure of combined command et al, and rather to be expected against a very prepared and better equipped naval force capable of supporting army moves hither and yon against whatever could be thrown against them. The Allied resistance did buy time in the sense of preventing things from being far worse, but this is armchair admiral post event thinking, and rightly so, as it wasn't really perceived as such at the time by people too close to the sound of the guns to be thinking long-term.

One thing should be made clearer however; the resistance offered at sea and on land by the slim Allied forces did not really prevent any invasion of Australia, at least not per se. In one of the Imperial Army's few forays into reality, in the post-First Phase of Operations joint planning period prior to Midway, the Army clearly recognized they had neither the manpower or the logistic support (transport and supply from the Navy) to successfully carry off any useful invasion Australia -- biting off a chunk of northern Australia was a useless idea, as there were no resources to exploit in comparison to the NEI, etc. Nor would it have better positioned Japanese forces to resist the inevitable counterattack. Only a full capture would have gained results commensurate with the effort, and that was very unlikely to be successful in the short time available or even long-term for that matter -- Japan was well aware that every man woman and child in Australia would have opposed such an operation to the last breath. By the time the Japanese had completed the first phase of their operations to capture vital resource-rich areas in SE Asia, they had literally stretched themselves as far as they could go without stripping the Kwantung Army or the forces engaged in China. Had they simply entrenched themselves where they were, it would have been much harder to remove them later. As it was, their second-best and finally approved option, to isolate Australia by "cutting off supply lines" (which had the Midway operation tagged onto it) was exactly the one step to far that allowed the Allied forces to not only stop them in their tracks but to start pushing them back far sooner than would have been the case had they just stood their ground and consolidated their ill-gotten gains.

I've never been able to figure out how Japan figured that cutting off the obvious South Pacific supply lines through Fiji, Samoa, etc. would have been successful, considering the enormous amount of available ocean to the south of these objectives -- the Allies would simply have taken the longer southern routes to Australia and used the routes from the west even more than they did. So their "cutting off" strategy for the second phase of operations turned out to be as hollow as the idea of taking Australia. The myth of "cutting off Australia" has become such a part of WWII historical thinking that it is hardly even questioned by most authors of historical tomes.

The first six months of the war, encompassing all the horrors of retreat and defeat for the Allies in SE Asia just demonstrated what should have been obvious to Japanese planners from the start (had they not been infected with all that mystical Bushido BS they substituted for clear thinking) -- they could win a quick set of battles. They could not win a war.

[jainso31]

I must say Don,having collaborated with you on quite a number of threads covering the Pacific War;after my indoctrination- I was never in any doubt that Japan could have won the war.
If the they sank two cruisers ,the US built two more-and then some; and as the war progressed- the USN became the greatest fleet in the world.
It was drilled into to me -forget the losses if they can be replaced-which side achieved their objective-
if they had not- they had not won the battle- despite sinking ships
Your last paragraph says it all for me.
Seasonal greetings Don-from a former pupil.:):):)

jainso31

[OhioMike]

Food for thought Don.......im not so certain though that Japan had any reason to believe it couldnt cut off Austrailia? It was in their plan for captureing Noumea and as you said earlier fiji, etc. Noumea would have certainly gave them a position to stop traffic from the east of Austrailia, captureing Java, NEI, etc., was not just to garner those resources but also an area to strike from at traffic comeing from the west of austrailia. I dont believe they really thought that they couldnt win untill they started pulling troops out of Guadacanal and New Guniea! As far as WHY you walk up and smack the biggest boy on the block right square in the face and think you'll win? Japanese culture....they hadnt ever lost except a few minor skirmishes with the russians, and at the time they thought that was an aberation....or simply ignored it like they ignored their greater losses later! I read about WWII/Pacific war everyday just about and i still shake my head!!! Have you read Blue sea of blood? Im not suggesting hes right on all his points, but he does raise some very good points on Japanese culture. I see some of the same attitudes on some of the Japanese military history websites today. Especially the IJN sites! As far as some are concerned, they really didnt lose,. but gave up?

[Don Boyer]

Ignoring reality was one of the Imperial Army's strong suits before and during the war. The culture they imposed on Japan following their 1905 victory over the Russians was, in the end, its own reward. The Imperial Army resisted surrender with every political move they could think of, even after the second atomic bomb. They were maneuvered into quitting by their own rules and regulations. When the Emperor finally had enough stones to tell them to stop, they did, but only because the top generals refused to go along with the various coups being plotted. Disobeying a direct command of the Showa Emperor would be construed as an enormous loss of face, redeemable only by the use of the short sword, which is exactly the solution chosen by many.

As for the Japanese cutting off Australia, they may have thought it possible, but their Army and navy could not, by any stretch of the imagination, muster and place enough land based air and sea-based task forces to close the doors on Australia plus maintain their positions in SE Asia and mainland China/Manchuria. It was absolutely physically impossible. There is too much ocean to the south and west to even make it a slim possibility. They didn't even have the tankers to support such operations, much less merchantile supply. The amount of material necessary for the job can be gauged by the fact that in late 1945 the US navy could have done it with the forces they had at sea. Only something of that size would have been able to accomplish that task.

[John Odom]

Ignoring reality is a strong point of the nationalists in Japan today. They teach a highly edited version of history and some even deny surrender.

Fortunately a small group of teachers and editors are slowly getting the truth out.

[ASSAIL]

The bombing of Darwin can be seen as the culmination of the battle of the Java Sea because was a continuum of the Japanese expansion South..
In 4 days time 19th Feb, we in Australia celebrate the 70th anniversary of this event and as such I penned a short paper for my grandchildren to help them understand.

Few are aware that the carrier strike force that attacked Darwin was the same force that attacked Pearl Harbour 10 weeks earlier. The same pilot, Mitsuo Fuchida, led the attack and the same commander Nagumo controlled it.
More aircraft attacked in the first wave than the first wave at Pearl Harbour and more bombs were dropped. More ships were sunk albeit smaller ships.
By 16th Jan 1942 (7 weeks after Pearl) the Japanese had achieved their main aim for the Southward thrust and had secured the Borneo and Java oilfields, they had moved with incredible speed and audacity to occupy coastal China, Indochina,Thailand,Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore and the Dutch East Indies. The consolidation plan required them to isolate Australia from resupply from the US and to this end they occupied Rabaul in New Guinea and intended to encircle Aust through an arc towards the Solomon Is and the New Hebrides group
The IJN calculated the only obstacle to Japanese plans would be an Aus/US counter attack from bases in North Australia. Admiral Yamamoto proposed an amphibious invasion of Darwin which was countered by the General Staff as being unsustainable so, as he intended to attack Timor on 20th Feb he needed to neutralise Darwin on 19th Feb
Darwin's Defences - Some of theBrit contributors have indirectly criticised John Curtain the Aust PM for opposing Churchill's desire to retain the Aust divisions but the Australian situation in 1941 was thus; half the Aust Army was overseas (the only trained troops). Two and half divisions faced German Italian and Vichy forces in the Middle east and a further division had been shipped to Malaya as a sop to Winston's bullying and we know how futile thatwas!
The RAN had half its strength and most of its major units in the Med, Red Sea and Atlantic to fight with the RN and large numbers of Australian Airmen were embedded in British squadrons in the UK.
There were NO effective fighters in Darwin, there were few AA guns none of which had been fired in anger.
The main fighting ships left in Darwin harbour after the ABDA fiascos were the Corvettes HMAS DELORAINE & HMAS KATOOMBA and the sloops HMAS SWAN & HMAS WARREGO. The USN fighting ships were the destroyer USS PEARY and the seaplane tender USS WILLIAM B PRESTON.
Two freighters were alongside the only wharf SS BAROSSA and SS NEPTUNA. The main ships at anchor in the crowded port were;Troopship SS ZEALANDIA, hospital ship SS MANUNDA, US transport ships PORT MAR,MIEGS, MOANA LOA and ADMIRAL HALSTEAD.
Others were the Australian transport MV TULAGI, the tanker BRITISH MOTORIST and the Norwegian tanker BENJAMIN FRANKLIN.
At 0730 on 19th Feb Nagumo decided to attack Darwin. The carriers AKAGI, KAGA, SORYU and HIRYU (escorted by 2 battleships,3 heavy cruisers and 9 destroyers) launched their aircraft - 36 Zeros, 71 Val dive bombers and 81 Kate bombers.
At 0958 the attac k on Darwin commenced. With no fighter cover the attack proceeded in tight formation with devastating effect. In the first salvo both Barossa and Neptuna were hit, the wharf was hugely damaged and the wharf bunker lines were ruptured spewing tons of black oil into the harbour.
The USS Peary took 5 direct hits and was obliterated killing 91 of her crew. USS William B Preston was hit killing 15 of her crew.
The first attack lasted 42 minutes and everything that could possibly be used as a target was attacked.
The ships sunk were: USS PEARY, HMAS MAVIE (a small lugger) transports NEPTUNA, ZEALANDIA< BRITISH MOTORIST< MOANA LOA< MIEGS and the coal hulk
The second raid began at 1200 and was carried out by 27 G4M Betty bombers from the Celebes and 27 G3M NELL's from newly captured bases in Ambon. This raid lasted 20 mins as there was nothing left to bomb.
I have not included damage to the town or other infrastructure here.
The numbers killed have never been truly confirmed. The huge tides, sharks, crocodiles and the extensive mangrove shorelines may have obscured the true numbers. However a figure of 297 is probably the best count with all but 17 of those being killed in the port.
The true nature of the devastation was kept from the Australian people by their government. Churchills fiascos in Greece, Crete and Singapore cost 20,000 Australian casualties either killed or captured in the previous months/weeks and it was thought the truth could not be borne.
Many Australians are ignorent of this attack and the subsequent 63 raids until Nov 1943.

[Kevin Denlay]

The bombing of Darwin can be seen as the culmination of the battle of the Java Sea because was a continuum of the Japanese expansion South..

With all due respect, and while I share / respect your sentiments re the bombing of Darwin, given that the Battle of the Java Sea did not take place for another two weeks (i.e. 27th February) I find it odd that you refer to the bombing of Darwin as the 'culmination' of that event.

Am I missing something here, or did you mean the 'initiation' of that event?

[ASSAIL]

With all due respect, and while I share / respect your sentiments re the bombing of Darwin, given that the Battle of the Java Sea did not take place for another two weeks (i.e. 27th February) I find it odd that you refer to the bombing of Darwin as the 'culmination' of that event.

Am I missing something here, or did you mean the 'initiation' of that event?

Yep your correct, that's what happens when one gets ADD from long posts. Feb 42 was a disasterous month for all concerned on the allied side of the conflict

[Kevin Denlay]

On February 27th, for the first time in 70 years, a memorial service was held at the wreck site of Hr. Ms. De Ruyter. Organized for the Dutch members of the 'Union of Survivors & Relatives of the Battle in the Java Sea 1942' by Joop Nahuijsen, the son of a father he never met, Antonie Nahuijsen a telegraphist on De Ruyter who was lost when the ship went down. Joop was born six months later in Surabaya, and.............you can guess the rest.

[Wellbran]

Just to add to this discussion about events in history etc and revision in nations eyes etc ect I was watching a film last night quite by accident, it was a chinese film with english subtitles (based on a true story) and it was set in the japanese occupation of china, and at the end of the film in english subtitles and spoken chinese it stated I quote : " In 1945 the japanese surrendered and china won the 8yr war with Japan"....I just burst out laughing! what a sweeping statement! "If you say something often enough the people will start to believe it" ....where did that quote come from...was it Mao?..er no ugh Reagan?...hmmm or was it Blair anyway you get the drift. Nations see things in their own favour or slant...hell! take the Libyan war for example...well we were right weren't we...??????

[barryp]

I bet if you asked the Chinese they would say the vast bulk of the Japanese Army was in China for the duration of the war and I think that would be true. If you ignore the impact of sea and air power on large garrisons wherever they may be then you could possibly think that way.

[BlackBat242]

I bet if you asked the Chinese they would say the vast bulk of the Japanese Army was in China for the duration of the war and I think that would be true. If you ignore the impact of sea and air power on large garrisons wherever they may be then you could possibly think that way.

Of course, the little fact that the IJA still held most of the Chinese territory it had taken when the surrender order came in seems to also be ignored in China.


I suppose that that is where the "we weren't defeated, we just surrendered" comes from... for that was exactly the case for most of the IJA.

They had been driven back from Burma and FIC, but they were still intact and still holding massive amounts of Chinese territory when the Emperor ordered them to lay down their arms.