REGIMENTAL STATISTICS

[jainso31]

The Great War produced some statistics that that beg an answer :-

Regt. Battle Honours / VCs / Fld Units / TotalWar Dead / Av Dead/Unit
London Regt. 64 / 9 / 62 / 29100 / 469
Nthld Fus. 67 / 5 / 31 / 16000 / 516
Royal Fus. 80 / 12 / 21 / 15600 / 742
Liverpool R 58 / 6 / 24 / 14200 / 591
Manch. Regt 72 / 11 / 27 / 13770 / 625
Lancs.Fus. 63 / 17 / 21 / 13140 / 510
R.Scots 71 / 7 / 22 / 11160 / 507
H L I 65 / 7 / 20 / 10030 / 501

NB. the Royal Fusiliers had the fewer Field units, but had the highest number of Battle Honours, 2nd highest VC awards and the highest loss rate per Field Unit.
Anyone care to comment?

Ref. British Regiments 1914-18 by Brig. E A James OBE TD
jainso31


Always on the Lookout!

[jainso31]

I think the Royal Fusiliers were generally, one of the hardest fought Regiments in the Great War.


jainso31

[Egypt]

The Royal Fusiliers served in France, Gallipoli, Salonika, E.Africa & N. Russia during WW1 (basically everywhere except Mesopotamia). There were I think some 46 infantry battalions of Royal Fusiliers, plus affiliated units from the London Regiment.
In total 195,000 actual Fusiliers, or 235,500 if also including the London Regiment affiliated TA battalions.
The war record of the Royal Fusiliers speaks for itself (a total of 15,600 Fusiliers lost their lives) and many gallantry awards were earned, however other regiments and units also suffered comparable casualty rates too.
From my point of view it seems a pretty pointless exercise to attempt to make a broadbrush statistical comparison between one particular regiment and another - especially when bearing in mind that for fighting purposes WW1 army formations were grouped together on a Division basis comprising of Brigades which in turn were drawn from individual battalions of (mixed-up) infantry regiments. For example, my Grandfather in the 1st Bn of the Lincolnshire Regiment served in an infantry Brigade comprising of Royal Fusiliers, Northumberland Fusiliers and Royal Scotts.
Best rgds,
Michael

[jainso31]

Egypt-I think you have missed the point that I was trying to make in this
"pretty pointlees exercise". It was to take the 10 Regiments with the highest
loss rate and see IF one stood out, way above the others in terms of Loss per
fighting Battalion-it had absolutely NOTHING to do with Brigades and Divisions.
The end result was that the Royal Fusiliers-again NOTHING to do with the London Regt.-turned out to be a very "hard fought" Regiment, with every Field Battalion suffering consequentially higher losses than others. Sure-
comparisons are odious; but it did create a talking point!


jainso31

[Egypt]

Egypt-I think you have missed the point that I was trying to make in this
"pretty pointlees exercise". It was to take the 10 Regiments with the highest
loss rate and see IF one stood out, way above the others in terms of Loss per
fighting Battalion-it had absolutely NOTHING to do with Brigades and Divisions.
jainso31

Just as a talking point (to keep the thread alive) - it would be nice to see the actual stats you have regarding losses per fighting battalion - I only see averaged-out figures based on 'field units' in your original email. - So what exactly do you mean by a field unit? Does this equate to an actual infantry battalion? And if so, then how do you get to the number of 21 field units for Royal Fusiliers? (Not criticizing, just highly intereseted).

According to H.C. O'Neil in his book 'The Royal Fusiliers in the Great War' (pub. 1928) before the Armistice, a total of 45 Royal Fusilier battalions had been raised, of which 35 saw service overseas. And let's also not forget the two battalions raised in 1919 for service with the North Russia Relief Force (and who also contributed to the Regiments total of Great War VC's).

I have no problems playing with statistics, but if suggestions are being made based on analysis of a particular set of data, then the original data needs to be full, accurate, consistent and transparent.

Nobody doubts the exemplary bravely shown by Royal Fusiliers in their many and splendid exploits during the Great War - I'm just reluctant to use fairly limited and possibly unreliable statistics to support suggestions that the contributions made by one particular regiment can be judged to be superior to the sacrifices made by many other illustrious regiments during that particularly horrid time. I would however conceed that certain battalions were a lot more active than others.

Best rgds,
Michael

PS My ref. to London Regiment relates to the numerous affiliated Territorial Army battalions of 'Royal Fusiliers', who for administrative purposes came under the banner of the London Regiment.


Internet Archive link to O'Neill's regimental history...

http://www.archive.org/stream/royalfusiliersin00onei#page/n9/mode/2up

[jainso31]

My Reference is, I think, unimpeachable-it is the major work for Regiments of the British Army in WW1.
The Royal Fusiliers had the following Battalions 1914-18:-
Regular=4
Regular Reserve=3
New Army (Service)=17
" " (Reserve=8
Garrison 1918=7
Graduate +Young Soldier=3
Labour=5
TOTAL=47
NB 1 All TF Battalions were London Regt,
2 The only battalions classed as Field Units were 4 Regular +17 N Army Service=21
3The 1919 units are not in the stats
4 I do not have individual Battalion losses,obviously,as many Battalions lost virtually their entire strenth and more;others had considerably less,entirely
dependant on which theatre they operated in.I made no mention of "superiority"

The losses are KIA,DOW or otherwise Killed.
Regards
Jim

jainso31

[Egypt]

The problem that I have is with your interpretatio0n of the statistics.
The number of 15,600 war dead is the overall total for the regiment as a whole, including casualties from what you deem to be non-field units i.e. mostly the labour corp and Jewish battalions, but also including reg. reserve battalions). You therefore can't simply divide total war dead by 21 (the number of designated field units) in order to derive any meaningful statistics. Other regiments may not have had such a disproportionately large number of 'non-field' battalions as the Royal Fusiliers (who nevertheless were still in theatre and who together suffered around 2,000 casualties of their own).
The regimental history by HC O'Neil lists every officer killed by name and unit and also also provides a numerical breakdown of other ranks by battalion, and therefore it is easy to total up losses from the 21 designated 'field units' to arrive at a figure closer to 13,500 (part of the overall total of 15,600 total war dead for the entire regiment).
Interestingly the 7th Bn. (a regular reserve battalion and therefore according to your definition not a designated field unit) was attached to the Royal Naval Division and they alone suffered almost 1,000 casualties - a higher proportion of casualties than 17 out of your 21 'field units'.

'Nuff said about the numbers - all were brave men and the Royal Fusiliers rightly received a huge number of battle honours arising from their WW1 engagements.

[jainso31]

Michael-I chose the criteria-total dead divided by field units-this is common
to all 10 Regts. chosen and they too; will have had extraneous losses within the total-which makes a level playing field.


jainso31

Regards
Jim

[Egypt]

I'm give up on this thread - too little naval content!
It just seemed rather odd to me to attempt to manufacture statistics about 'field units' from data that does not specifically relate to those particular units.
Of the 12 Royal Fusilier VC's included in the original data, only 10 were awarded to men belonging to 14-18 'field units'.
And some 2,000 of the 15,600 total war dead were also from the regiment's non-field units. Therefore what use is it to calculate average dead per field unit without appropriate adjustments?
Anyway, an interesting exchange - even if it might have been better suited to an alternative forum (like The Great War Forum).
Signing out.
Michael

[jainso31]

This is the Great War section of this Forum and the thread was added as a talking point-surely an objective of the Forum.

jainso31

[CE REYC]

Do not lose sight of the cross postings and attachments from regiments and corps to make up shortfall in numbers due to various causes. For example a great number of men enlisted for the Gordon Highlanders who were transfered to other Uk and Commonwealth units. Thus the statistics can come unstuck on the point of what was the original regiment. Surely, however, the real question is why were so many men sacrificed?

[Dave Hutson]

Hi jainso31. I have read this thread with interest and welcome the exchange of information service to service. So perhaps a question for you.

Where would I go to find which regiments left the UK and on what ships bound for Singapore via Capetown and the Middle East in December 1941. My father was RMP K Coy at that time but the unit would have been too small to be noted as embarking. Our last contact with him was Cape Town in Dec 1941 - the next as a POW in Java 1943.

Dave H

[jainso31]

Dave H
Thank you for your kind comment re. my thread.I've just got back to it today-I thought it was moribund
What you ask is a "find the needle in the haystack" impossible,nearly;but I'm
willing to research this for you,if you so wish.
The nuts and bolts of this job are :-
a)Find units of the British Army which were sent out to the Far East Oct/Nov.
1941-this I would get an idea about this from,what was happening at the time, major/minor movement.Given major,I have a complete record of every Infantry and Armoured Regiment's movements during WW2 and therefore I can pinpoint who was on the move to the FE on the dates mentioned then
b) using Convoy Web try to pinpoint a convoy which arrives Capetown in Dec 1941 going on to Singapore-two types of Convoy OS and WS would have to be looked at carefully.
Please let me know if you want me to have a go at this; or whether you wish.IT WAS A MAJOR MOVE!!
to DIY.
PS As it is an inexact science,I cannot give you a guarantee.
jainso31

[jainso31]

CE REYC
The object of the small exercise was to show the relation between a "hard fought" Regiment and Casualties.I am in no position to explain why sacrafices were made-I'm sorry- but that's the way of it.

jainso31

[Dave Hutson]

Dave H
Thank you for your kind comment re. my thread.I've just got back to it today-I thought it was moribund
What you ask is a "find the needle in the haystack" impossible,nearly;but I'm
willing to research this for you,if you so wish.
The nuts and bolts of this job are :-
a)Find units of the British Army which were sent out to the Far East Oct/Nov.
1941-this I would get an idea about this from,what was happening at the time, major/minor movement.Given major,I have a complete record of every Infantry and Armoured Regiment's movements during WW2 and therefore I can pinpoint who was on the move to the FE on the dates mentioned then
b) using Convoy Web try to pinpoint a convoy which arrives Capetown in Dec 1941 going on to Singapore-two types of Convoy OS and WS would have to be looked at carefully.
Please let me know if you want me to have a go at this; or whether you wish.IT WAS A MAJOR MOVE!!
to DIY.
PS As it is an inexact science,I cannot give you a guarantee.
jainso31

Thank you my friend, That is another couple of needles to add to my research. I think I have more needles than a Chiropractor to date. I will start with your advisos - but my start has to be with who went East on what late 41 cos' as he was a Coy Det [K Coy RMP] it begins with "attached to who???" so any help is 250% appreciated. The Java angle is something I will have to do separately.

But please, don't spend a lot of time on it cos' this is an ongoing which has been ongoing for years and I am still breaking thru' dead ends.

Dave H

[jainso31]

Dave H
The 18th Division was hastily mobilised and shipped to the FE on,I think,at this juncture on a WS (Winston Special)12
18th Division,Ill give units later if you want them.
Your concern was for your father,An RMP,I doubt that he would be part of the Division-The Official Order of Battle shows this Div. without Support units.
I have seen another WS convoy that went to Java, which fell in Mar 42 ie WS14; but this not in Cape Town in Dec.41
NB Individual ships are NOT shown for WS convoys.Your father's subunit may have sailed independantly on an OS convoy to Java (Batavia)
See convoy web-be back tomorrow

jainso31

[Dave Hutson]

Thanks. All info is put into the pot with the hope of a solution which should it materialise will finalise a family mystery to be shared by all the remaining members still alive, and in particular his younger sister and myself.

This started on the Naval Forum but I am sure that there are others on the Forum who have questions on this period for whom the answers have never been forthcoming.

Should the Moderators wish for me to desist I will change to PM's to avoid any forum conflicts.

Dave H

[nigelweysom]

Do not lose sight of the cross postings and attachments from regiments and corps to make up shortfall in numbers due to various causes. For example a great number of men enlisted for the Gordon Highlanders who were transfered to other Uk and Commonwealth units. Thus the statistics can come unstuck on the point of what was the original regiment. Surely, however, the real question is why were so many men sacrificed?

i am very interested in the above statement , one of my interests is my Grandfathers military history , he was a Gordon Highlander from 1916 onward what information is there regarding this transfer of men from the Gordon's
Nigel

[CE REYC]

In reply to NIgel and adding to my previous post. Attachments would have still retained their regimental identity, but there were transfers such as those to the newly formed Machine Gun Corps where the personnel would be lost to their parent unit completely. There were also instances of complete units changing role in bothe world wars, e.g 8th Battalion Gordon Highlanders became 100th Anti-Tank Unit in the second war. Also personnel held on Home Service Battalions, i.e. wounded and recupriating and the like, could also wind up in a totally different regiment on return to full duty. Records of transfers could only be gleaned from a. the service records of the individual or b. unit Part II/III orders (or their equivalent in the first war). The latter might be available in National Archives but that is a long shot. Even official unit histories (Commander's Diaries, etc.) would not have that amount of detail.

[jainso31]

nigelweysom
The original exercise, the nub of this thread was to compare statistics between several "hard fought" Regiments; and look at what was paid in body count for honours ans VCs or the reverse if you like,nothing more ,nothing less.The business of transfers between regiments had nothing to do with this thread and would have to bre looked at seperately.Which of course can be done.

jainso31

[jainso31]

Dave H
should you wish to pm me about your father's service in the Far East-I would need name, rank, service No. and pow No.Iknow his unit; but let me go as far as I can with this, as we are doing.Let's get the generalities cleared up first.Had a good look at RMPs on Singapore Island and Java,but nothing much found except mention of heavy MP presence on harbour gates on Singapore.

jainso31.

[nigelweysom]

nigelweysom
The original exercise, the nub of this thread was to compare statistics between several "hard fought" Regiments; and look at what was paid in body count for honours ans VCs or the reverse if you like,nothing more ,nothing less.The business of transfers between regiments had nothing to do with this thread and would have to bre looked at seperately.Which of course can be done.

jainso31

i agree that my interest in Gordon Highlanders transfers does go slightly off thread , which often happens , but i wasn't the first and i did stay in the same war , personally I'm happy for a bit of leeway, the alternative is for a new thread to ask one question that may receive one answer and then go no further,
Nigel

[jainso31]

Okay nigel, I did make fish and fowl;for which I apologise .Please state what you would like me to look at specifically; and I will endeavour to provide an answer for you,


jainso31

[jainso31]

Dave H
Below is a link to a Java POW story-it is worth reading, if not keeping.







http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/06/a2013706.shtml

[nigelweysom]

jainso31 my question was answered by CE REYC in post 19 thanks
Nigel

[jainso31]

Dave I'm fairly certain that your dad went out on a WS12 convoy intended for India but was diverted to Singapore carrying 18th Division as a reinforcement.What was your Dad doing in Singapore-well it was PANIC STations with men running away and trying to leave the island -there would have to a considerable armed presense at all points of departure.After duty done he along with 130000 other soldiers became POWs.Whayt happened next is to find out


jainso31

[Dave Hutson]

Thank you my friend, your knowledge is invaluable in this search.

Dave H

[jainso31]

I think this about done now here-finding other publis sources of information
is likely to difficult in the extreme.

jainso31