Naval Tactics – Frigate Warfare.

[INVINCIBLE]

Have just got back from a Trafalgar speech deep in SW France – it was certainly difficult getting back with fuel shortages, strikes, blockades and demonstrations against raising pension age from 60 to 62 (what a contrast with the way that raising pension age from 65 to 67 has gone down in the UK!!!). It was touch and go and quite exciting but finally made the ferry and relaxed as the ship headed north across the Channel back to UK.
Whilst in France I picked up a copy of ‘Stand into Danger’ by Alexander Kent about a frigate in 1774. The frigate is being shadowed by another ship, which they cannot shake off, when the captain says “…I shall require the launch ready for lowering at dusk, earlier if the light is poor. A good man in charge and extra hands to get her mast stepped and sails set as soon as they are cast off. I want them to carry several of the larger lanterns. We shall douse ours and darken ship completely as soon as the launch is clear. Then I intend to beat hard to wind’rd…”
The book goes on to describe how they escape by the ship astern being decoyed and following the light in the launch.
A clever plan but I seem to remember seeing exactly the same manoeuvre in the film of the book “Master and Commander” by Patrick O’Brian.
‘Stand into Danger’ was published thirty years ago in 1980 whilst the film starring Russell Crowe was much more recent, though the book it was based on was, I think, published in 1970. Anybody seen the film or know who pinched the idea from whom?

[Mitch Hinde]

Hi Invincible

Alexander Kent is the pseudonym of Douglas Reeman who served in the RN during WWII and the Korean war. Whether Patrick O'Brian served I don't know. But I bet they both read C S Forester??

Mitch Hinde

[emason]

I've seen "Master and Commander" three times now, a brilliant and unsentimental film and quite believable. I thought the battle scenes particularly realistic - or what I imagine to be realistic. I remember the scene with the launch and lanterns, and wondering what they were going to do with them.

There are very few films that I like I like, so any praise from me has to have been deserved. A highly recommended film.

[berry]

Read Somewhere that Thomas,Lord Cochrane pulled this stunt for real,either with Pallas or Imperieuse.
Sid

[INVINCIBLE]

Hi Invincible

Alexander Kent is the pseudonym of Douglas Reeman who served in the RN during WWII and the Korean war. Whether Patrick O'Brian served I don't know. But I bet they both read C S Forester??

Mitch Hinde

Mitch,

Thanks - I am sure that you are right both would have been brought up on CS Forester (the master!). I have read virtually all the Hornblowers but do not remember coming across that particular clever trick.

[INVINCIBLE]

Read Somewhere that Thomas,Lord Cochrane pulled this stunt for real,either with Pallas or Imperieuse.
Sid

Sid,

Many thanks for that lead. I was not aware of it before now but have just researched it. You are in fact absolutely right - it was originally a trick pulled by Cochrane but when he was in command of the small brig Speedy (14). The following is an extract from "Cochrane, Britannia's Sea Wolf" by Donald Thomas:

“…Cochrane’s ingenuity in the face of superior weapons was sometimes very simple. On 18 March 1801, the Speedy (14) had just put to sea from Port Mahon when, towards evening, Cochrane saw that she was being followed by a large and powerful frigate. He signalled the frigate using the Royal Navy code in operation at the time but received no reply. The only hope for Speedy lay in escape. Cochrane crowded on his sails but the force of the wind was such that one sail parted. At dawn the next day, the frigate still had them in sight and gained steadily on the little brig until that evening. There could be only one end to the chase.

During the second night, as on the first, the frigate was guided by the glimmer of light, which was inevitable on any ship. An hour before dawn she was almost on top of her prey. And then the sky lightened. Just ahead of the frigate was a large wooden tub with a candle burning in it. Of the Speedy there was no sign. …”

Many thanks - shows the value of this forum.

[whalecatcher]

Ha
A clever plan but I seem to remember seeing exactly the same manoeuvre in the film of the book “Master and Commander” by Patrick O’Brian.
‘Stand into Danger’ was published thirty years ago in 1980 whilst the film starring Russell Crowe was much more recent, though the book it was based on was, I think, published in 1970. Anybody seen the film or know who pinched the idea from whom?

As between Douglas Reeman and Patrick OBrian, the ruse is described in Chapter 9 of *Master and Commander*, which was published in 1969. *Stand into danger* did not appear until 1976. As Berry points out, O'Brian based his first Aubrey novel on Cochrane's account of his adventures, which included his se of the trick himself. However, it had been used on earlier occasions, being described as follows in Falconer's Dictionary of the Marine, 1780, that is to say, well prior to its use by Cochrane:

"Decoying is also performed to elude the chase of a ship of superior 
force in a dark night, by throwing out a lighted cask of pitch into 
the sea, which will burn for a considerable time, and misguide the 
enemy. Immediately after the cask is thrown out the ship changes her 
course, and may easily escape if at any tolerable distance from the 
foe. "

Whalecatcher

[berry]

Whalecatcher,thanks for that;have just found copy of the book mentioned by Dreadnought ,'Cochrane' by Donald Thomas.On the back cover there are a few lines which sum it all up for me - 'Before your buy this wonderful book,to be sure you've had your fill of C.S.Forester and Patrick O'Brien first,otherwise you may find that their works are pale imitations of the real thing.
regards
Sid.

[INVINCIBLE]

As between Douglas Reeman and Patrick OBrian, the ruse is described in Chapter 9 of *Master and Commander*, which was published in 1969. *Stand into danger* did not appear until 1976. As Berry points out, O'Brian based his first Aubrey novel on Cochrane's account of his adventures, which included his se of the trick himself. However, it had been used on earlier occasions, being described as follows in Falconer's Dictionary of the Marine, 1780, that is to say, well prior to its use by Cochrane:

"Decoying is also performed to elude the chase of a ship of superior 
force in a dark night, by throwing out a lighted cask of pitch into 
the sea, which will burn for a considerable time, and misguide the 
enemy. Immediately after the cask is thrown out the ship changes her 
course, and may easily escape if at any tolerable distance from the 
foe. "

Whalecatcher

Whalecatcher,

Thanks for that – fascinating!
What is Falconer’s dictionary of the Marine? Is it anything like BR 1806 ‘British Maritime Doctrine’, which sets out the tactics and strategic doctrine of the Royal Navy.
I looked up Cochrane’s exploits in Laird Clowes’ epic history of the Royal Navy, Volume IV, which covers 1801, the date of the Cochrane incident and can find no mention of it.

[whalecatcher]

[QUOTE=INVINCIBLE;136379]


What is Falconer’s dictionary of the Marine? Is it anything like BR 1806 ‘British Maritime Doctrine’, which sets out the tactics and strategic doctrine of the Royal Navy.


William Falconer's *An Universal Dictionary of the Marine*, appeared in 1769, the same year as the author was lost at sea. Another edition came out in 1780, followed by an expanded version revised by Willian Burney in 1815. One gets a very good idea of the contents from the following URLs.


http://ia310839.us.archive.org/3/items/universaldiction00falc/universaldiction00falc.pdf

http://books.google.ca/books?id=FnrL3GeCvTgC&printsec=frontcover&dq=an+universal+dictionary+of+the+marine+editions&source=bl&ots=8pHjZM2LxS&sig=M9B1UHZuqMelqyqDTBAnUmTK9XQ&hl=en&ei=XpXNTLKRNITmsQOh6-WDDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&sqi=2&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=an%20universal%20dictionary%20of%20the%20marine% 20editions&f=false

Whalecatcher

[INVINCIBLE]

[QUOTE=INVINCIBLE;136379]


What is Falconer’s dictionary of the Marine? Is it anything like BR 1806 ‘British Maritime Doctrine’, which sets out the tactics and strategic doctrine of the Royal Navy.


William Falconer's *An Universal Dictionary of the Marine*, appeared in 1769, the same year as the author was lost at sea. Another edition came out in 1780, followed by an expanded version revised by Willian Burney in 1815. One gets a very good idea of the contents from the following URLs.


http://ia310839.us.archive.org/3/items/universaldiction00falc/universaldiction00falc.pdf

http://books.google.ca/books?id=FnrL3GeCvTgC&printsec=frontcover&dq=an+universal+dictionary+of+the+marine+editions&source=bl&ots=8pHjZM2LxS&sig=M9B1UHZuqMelqyqDTBAnUmTK9XQ&hl=en&ei=XpXNTLKRNITmsQOh6-WDDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&sqi=2&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=an%20universal%20dictionary%20of%20the%20marine% 20editions&f=false

Whalecatcher

Whalecatcher,

Many thanks - having had a quick look on line at William Falconer's Universal dictionary of the Marine it provides a really fascinating piece of naval history. One wonders whether Cochrane and others read it and derived ideas from it. Also whether CS Forester, O'Brian etc got ideas from it. Perhaps our own Alaric Bond got some of his ideas from it for his excellent books?

[INVINCIBLE]

I see there is a new book on Cochrane, entitled 'Cochrane The Dauntless, The Life and Adventures of Thomas Cochrane' by David Cordingly, published by Bloomsbury advertised in an book selection insert in the Sunday papers today. The blurb says O'Brian, CS Forester and Marryat all based their heroes on Cochrane, but Cordingly shows how Cochrane far outdid the exploits of the characters he inspired...
That rather reflects the sentiments expressed above on this thread.

[Scurs]

Thus proving the old adage that "Fact is stranger than fiction" :)

Personally, I never have "got along" with Patrick O'Brien books, no idea why, just have never taken to them.
C.S. Forrester set the standard, IMO, and has never been bettered.
Alexander Kent (aka Douglas Reeman) I infinitely preferred to Patrick O'Brien......but just personal preference! :)

[CYLLA]

Hi Scurs,

With your mention of aka Douglas Reeman,
When was on the Chichester ,and on a run ashore down the vill, i often picked up one of his books off the stalls.
When down aft , doing "life bouy ghost " at sea during the middle watch ,it past the time very quickly ...or loafing in the bridge cabin flat ,waiting for your next turn on the bridge ...[to do look-out].i went through a good many of his books .
When you were at sea ,and reading um ,it made you feel you were there..in the book....:)

And i did the same when i was on the Scylla , out in the far flung ,i found the odd one i had not read..in the village.
I still have um all still up stairs...

cylla

[INVINCIBLE]

Thus proving the old adage that "Fact is stranger than fiction" :)

Personally, I never have "got along" with Patrick O'Brien books, no idea why, just have never taken to them.
C.S. Forrester set the standard, IMO, and has never been bettered.
Alexander Kent (aka Douglas Reeman) I infinitely preferred to Patrick O'Brien......but just personal preference! :)

Entirely agree - always took a few CS Foresters or Douglas Reemans to sea with me. Have the Alexander Kents but Bolitho does not sound quite as authentic as Hornblower.....Also have a number of O'Brians to read idc (bought after seeing the film).

[Alaric]

[QUOTE=whalecatcher;136433]

Whalecatcher,

Many thanks - having had a quick look on line at William Falconer's Universal dictionary of the Marine it provides a really fascinating piece of naval history. One wonders whether Cochrane and others read it and derived ideas from it. Also whether CS Forester, O'Brian etc got ideas from it. Perhaps our own Alaric Bond got some of his ideas from it for his excellent books?

Yup, Falconer is one of many that reside on my "desktop", although I try not to get ideas from them, only inspiration. The Naval Chronicle is another good source, both for contemporary views on what became historic events, and the general language and feel of the period. Originally published in 40 volumes between 1799 and 1818, it has recently been reprinted in a condensed form, although I tend to go for old copies, when I can get them, if only for the smell...

Here is the Google for vol one:
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=XuMbAQAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=the+naval+chronicle&source=bl&ots=41OpuaIae5&sig=GXS_AcbMkgY3N4Ob7p8cj_eYxTs&hl=en&ei=QanXTJmHOcq3hAe1pbydBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CEEQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q&f=false