HMAS Cerberus 1868

[herakles]

The first ironclad battleships were American. And their first encounter was during that country's Civil War. A 4 hour battle between USS Monitor and CSS Virginia (Merrimac) ensued.

The RN was most interested in the design but before building a large ship, the design was trialled on a smaller class of gunboat of which the Cerberus was one. It was from the modified 'monitor' design of the Cerberus and her sisters, that lay the foundations for all surface, gun armed warships for a century until the advent of the guided missiles of the l960s.

Because of the perceived threat from Russia during the Crimean War, the Victorian Govt. decided to buy Cerberus to protect Port Phillip Bay. She arrived there in April 1871. She had had a most eventful trip from Chatham. She rolled very dangerously in big seas and partly because of this and the recent loss by capsizing of her sister ship HMS Captain, the crew mutinied on arrival at Portsmouth. Her second crew mutinied at Malta and the third crew only sailed her to Melbourne because a detachment of Marines on-board insisted! She was the fist steamship and arguably the first warship to pass through the then new Suez Canal.

She never fired in battle and never left Port Philip Bay. The only time she came into action was to try to stop a small craft sailing up the Bay to avoid Customs. The crew leapt into action and managed to shoot the roof off a Pharmacy in the nearby town of St. Kilda. Though this story maybe a myth.

All told, she served in three navies - the Victorian Colonial Navy from 1871 until 1901, from 1901 until 1913, in the Commonwealth Naval Forces and from 1913 until 1924, she served in the Royal Australian Navy.

In 1926 she was scrapped and used as a breakwater off the Black Rock Yacht Club.

In 1993 a severe storm finished her off.

Today there is considerable effort being made to salvage the remains and restore her as she forms a fascinating part of early Australian navy history.

http://users.netconnect.com.au/~ianmac/cerberus.html

The first thumbnail is of Cerberus when she was a breakwater. Note the massive fore and aft turrets.

The second is of a sister ship HMS Hecate, with the same dimensions as Cerberus, crossing the North Sea to Heligoland in 1884. Demonstrating that this class could sail in bad seas.

[The Sailor]

Darn good post Herk. I never new any of this.
Cererbus is the name one sees on many naval trainees in Australia.
It is the name given to the major shore installation for the RAN.

HMAS CERBERUS, the Navy's premier training establishment. About 6000 personnel are trained annually, averaging 800 trainees onboard at any one time.

The establishment covers 1517 hectares and is 70 kilometres from Melbourne near Crib Point on Hann's Inlet, Western Port Bay. Purchased in 1911 and called Flinders Naval Depot, it was commissioned as HMAS CERBERUS 10 years later. It comprises numerous training and recreation facilities, two chapels, small marina and attractive grounds.

The primary role of HMAS CERBERUS has always been Navy personnel training. With the establishment of four tri-service schools over the last 13 years, this role has been extended to training Army, Navy and Air Force personnel.

Despite change, the charm of HMAS CERBERUS remains. Its historic presence, heritage buildings, chapels, sports facilities and gardens create a pleasant training environment. Navy-specific training includes School of Survivability and Ship Safety, which specialises in firefighting, damage control and nuclear biological chemical defence, seamanship and weapons training. HMAS CERBERUS is also the home of the Recruit School and, for all sailors, their first contact with life in the Navy.

Check out this site on the old wreck today.

http://users.netconnect.com.au/~ianmac/cerberus.html

[herakles]

I've not been to that training establishment Sailor but I did visit the naval officer training school at Jervis Bay. We went there to play them football (the real football - not soccer. Aussie Rules!!) I seem to recall that we won. But then the boys there were mostly very young. What was it then? Take them at 13 years? Should be more of it!!

When did Jervis Bay close?

[kookaburra]

The posts and links here give a good view of the importance of the breastwork monitor HMVS Cerberus in naval history - but the failure to save it has been a bee in my bonnet for decades.

With only 220 years of European settlement there are a limited number of unique historical relics in Australia - but this is one of them: the lead ship in a series of seven designed for the RN by Sir Edward Reed, it was the precusor to the Dreadnought and all battleships of the 20th Century.


As a breakwater in Half Moon Bay at Black Rock since Sept 2, 1926, it is now deteriorating and sinking lower with every year that passes. Last I heard,it was estimated that it would cost $20m to raise and save it - and always there are hospitals, schools and roads etc that are given priority.

Over the years the dedicated 'Save the Cerberus' group that has worked tirelessly to raise awareness and rescue the ship has received some support in the Bayside Council level, but generally, I feel they have been ignored and dismissed as militaristic old duffers.

Yet, I feel certain that one day future generations will rightfully condemn us for this supreme example of short-sightedness, lack of appreciation and respect for the nation's heritage.

Last I heard the huge 10-inch muzzle loaders had been removed , to prevent it sinking deeper into the sand, but if that's correct I don't know where they have gone.

You only need to look at earlier photographs of the breakwater and more recent to see how it is disappearing.
It needs a philanthropist or a visionary politician now.


The first photograph here is the latest published on the 'Save The Cerberus website, and the second as was first sunk as a breakwater in 1926. The Following four are the days when Cerberus was in service - she was launched in 1868 and commissioned for the colonial Victorian Navy in 1870, she steamed to Australia with raised sides from memory of my reading.


She was one of the most powerful coastal warships in the world in her time.

Its not many years ago that I read an old man's account of serving on her as a boy. The deck below was so low I don't think it had standing room.

The last (color) photograph appeared in Ross Gillet's 1977 book 'Warships of Australia' - so that's 30 years old.

Perhaps repeating a link to the vital details here:

http://www.cerberus.com.au/

Edit: Heritage link here says only three of the ships were built (not seven). Many good photographs aboard, and details in various links from that site above.



Going...going ...

[herakles]

It is a great shame that nothing is being done.

I remember playing around her as a kid down at half Moon Bay. I had no idea at the time of what she represents.

Still, there was absolutely no interest in "old things" then. Just consider the rape of the top end of Collins St. And some glorious old buildings in Ballaarat.

$20M eh! Can't see that Govt. forking that out whilst the transport system and the water supply are so pathetic.

Is the 'Save the Cerberus' group active do you know?

[kookaburra]

Yes 'Save The Cerberus' is still active Herk, with close links now to Heritage Victoria and the National Trust. The ship is now listed as one of Australia's 10 most endangered heritage sites.

In fact, here is some positive NEWS!

In July the Federal Government gave them a $500,000 grant to stabilize the ship.


Details here:

http://www.cerberus.com.au/cgi-bin/newsscript/newsscript.pl?record=212

That's the first time I have ever heard of such a major break and commitment of public funds. Maybe the first step to seeing this wonderful and historic vessel being saved after all.

PS: I too used to lurk around it at Half Moon Bay as a kid, and paddle out for a closer look. It's in such bad, jagged shape now that climbing aboard is prohibited, with a penalty up to $10,000.

[nigelweysom]

interesting post there Herk do we assume a correct use of the term mutiny
Nigel

[herakles]

interesting post there Herk do we assume a correct use of the term mutiny
Nigel

I guess you are referring to the mutiny at Portsmouth. We need to agree on what a mutiny is I suppose. The crew certainly refused to obey orders and had to be replaced. I don't know what happened to them however. Perhaps they were charged with mutiny.

[nigelweysom]

no i was thinking about the Indian mutiny and how things are seen from different perspectives
Nigel

[herakles]

Ah! Yes, history is seen differently by different eyes. What's a mutiny to some is a glorious revolution to others.

[kookaburra]

New to me is an excellent page on 'Saving the Cerberus' website, with photos and diagrams of the monitor's 10-inch, rifled, muzzle loading guns, which I thought were worth a seperate, more specialized thread. (BTW, I am not if sure this 'Saving the Cerberus' page is recently posted - it's a complex site with many links, which I'd browsed a number of times, but I had not come across these photos and diagrams before).

Cerberus is listed as one of the 10 most endangered heritage sites in the country. The fout 18 ton guns were removed with the aid of an $80,000 State Government grant in March 2005 and 'stored' on the seabed beside the ship, in an attempt to ease the weight pressure on the deteriorating decks, and the sinkage of the hull into the sand.

The Federal Government recently announced a $1.5m grant to stabilize the historic warship, although Heritage Victoria and supporters of the ship estimate that the cost of raising the hull for real stabilization would be $5.2m.

I'll place some historical/technical details on the guns in a following post. First here are is colorized photograph of Cerberus, which again I'd not previously seen, diagrams, and pics of the guns before removal.

I'll have to come back with a re-sizing of the main turret plan that is presently too large to post.

[kookaburra]

Edited from the 'Saving the Cerberus' website:


The Cerberus was 3,340, 225ft in length and had a maximum daught of 14ft 2.5 in at the stern. Her complement was 82.

Antiquated to our eyes now, it takes a pause to realize that she was the 'latest thing' when she arrived in the gold-rich colony of Victoria in 1870, at the time of the Franco-Prussian War. What made her formidable were the four Mk1 RML (rifled, muzzle loading) guns in two revolving turrets. They were cast at the Royal Gun Factory in Woolwich, on the Armstrong gun pattern - described an 1872 issue of The Mechanics Magazine as 'the most magnificent guns in the world.'

The barrels had to be short enough to be re-loaded from within the armoured turret, limiting their range, but - electronically controlled - they could fire a round every 1.5 minutes. Initially test fired at Woolwich, concern over the Prussian war was such that they were not further tested on the vessel before she left for Victoria, and this occured in Port Phillip Bay on August 26, 1871.

The rifle barrels provided and targets were regularly hit when fired from Cerberus. But not all went well. One gun cracked and another blew it's barrel apart, and were eventually replaced by a spares from Sydney and London. The cracked gun remained in a park in Ballarat for 89 years, but is now at the Flinders Naval Depot at Crib Point on Westernport Bay - HMAS Cerberus.

The first photo below shows one of the replacements being loaded at Williamstown.

Cerberus's gub could fire tradition ball shot or projectiles, had an elevation of 12 degrees, at which their maximum range was 5.5 kilometres. The gun were fired electronically, first from the turret, and later from the conning position. The turrets were protected by nine inches of armour plate. In the RN a sister ship, Magdala is shown in photos with a re-fit of modern eight inch breach-loading guns projecting from the turret, but Cerberus never received this modernisation although she served three eras of the formative Australian navies - Victorian, Commonwealth and RAN - for almost half a century.

By 1900 the Cerberus also carried two rapid fire Nordenfelt 14-pounder guns (second pic), but I may have to do some editing in here ...that site is so confusing I'm having difficulty finding my source material again! Anyway, the pictures are good. I'm also adding some photos above and below decks, most taken by Allan Trinca and Bill Billet in 1994, before Cerberus became unstable and boarding her was banned, on pain of a $1,000 penalty!

[rogersjr]

We are very interested in seeing the turret plan in case it is one that we do not have. Is this possible?

The four Woowich 10 inch RML guns are sitting on the seafloor on the seaward side of Cerberus with annodes attached.

John Rogers
Fleet Engineer (Victorian Navy)
website, research & Friends of the Cerberus President.

[rogersjr]

To answer one of the questions above, Friends of the Cerberus is still active and those interested can join the Victorian Navy at http://www.cerberus.com.au/friends.html as either a free or paid member with a choice of many Victorian Navy ranks. We need all the members and help that we can get.

To answer another question above, the British built two Cerberus class monitors :- Cerberus and Magdala

and a smaller one named Abyssinia.

They also built four Cyclops class monitors:- Cyclops, Hecate, Hydra and Gorgon.

This gives a total of seven.

There were also three larger versions:- Devastation, Thunderer and Dreadnought (1875) but these had higher decks so one could debate whether or not they were monitors.

John Rogers
Fleet Engineer (Victorian Navy)
website, research & Friends of the Cerberus President.

http://www.cerberus.com.au/logonew1.gif

[kookaburra]

John, welcome. I believe you would have these plans. I may have become confused in the scores of links emanating from the 'Defending Victoria' website and its 'Saving the Cerberus' component when I attributed the latter as the souce of those plans (in fact I found them from a link on that site and then was unable to find it again when I wanted to complete the details and attribution).

Anyway, I have now done so. In fact they are on a website called cerberus.com.au, and all the gun plans and elevations I've seen are here:

http://www.cerberus.com.au/guns.html


May I add best wishes to yourselves and all groups involved in efforts to preserve the Cerberus. I've been interested in it for decades, and never understood the official lack of interest (until recently that is) in such an historic vessel.

Sharing here for our members a couple of pics from that site I had intended to post before I lost track of it in the maze: the range table of Cerberus's guns, and a pic the more modern 8 inch breachloaders as mounted in HMS Magdala in 1892.

[rogersjr]

Thanks for the reply. You are correct that we have the plans that you referred to. www.cerberus.com.au is in fact our website. Please feel free to continue spreading the word.

[Commodore Armiger]

We seem to have two active Cerberus threads, which seems a shame because there is a risk that people will miss one or the other and thus potentially interesting material.

I hope she can be saved and restored. There are so few examples of ironclad technology left.

[kookaburra]

Yes, the intention here - as stated in post #1 - was really to do a specialized thread on the Cerberus guns, and, I guess, to advance the cause John Rogers has mentioned of 'spreading the word.'

On the first, forum members can see a selection of TV news videos on the removal of the Cerberus guns and placing them on the seabed on the www.cerberus.com.au website. There's some quite good footage. They're here:

http://www.cerberus.com.au/videos/callvideo.html


On the question of preservation, after decades of dedicated work by volunteers and others, it does seem that at last they are over-coming official indifference and some things are happening. As each year goes by the historical significance of Cerberus increases, and I firmly believe that somehow - perhaps many years from now - there will be a fully funded exercise of restoration. I was surprised and sorry that this did not begin with the Centenary of Federation in 2001, when many groups got major grants.

There are so many fine examples around the world, but one that comes to my mind is how the Japanese have preserved and presented their famous pre-dreadnought Mikasa. There are some fine below-decks pics of the Mikasa in post #3 on this thread I posted on the Yokosuka Naval Base some weeks ago.

http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3654



Now something to make the blood boil :

A letter published in a local suburban newspaper in response to an article on the efforts to save the Cerberus (reproduced on the 'Save The Cerberus website)




Drag the "ugly metal
breakwater" away

I CANNOT believe that the subject of
a restoration of the now ugly metal break-
water, the Cerberus, is again being cont-
emplated.
What is historical about spending $ 10
million on what would be a rebuilding of
a naval vessel for people to look at? No
longer the original.
And where are the tourists in Bayside
looking at historical objects?
The Sandringham history as a beach
resort is not a long one, and of interest to
locals mainly.
It will be a scandal if $ 1 million dollars,
let alone $ 10 million, is found for such a
project.
There is a lack of accomodation for the
middle income, elderly and a lack of nurs-
ing homes in Bayside. There is a lack of
kindergartens and our primary schools
need help. Homeless youth and struggling
families have to be supported--ask South-
ern Family Life.
Our garden suburbs are disappearing.
Get the priorities right.
Drag the dangerous metal breakwater--
and it is not a shipwreck--away.
--Shirley Shannon
Littlewood St,
Hampton


How can one contrast this to the attitude in the U.S., where there are historic ships preserved in virtually every State. Below is the cover and a couple of pages from a booklet I picked up there in my travels many years ago:

[cachalot]

Hi, I wonder if anyone would know how to access the records of the 'cerberus' .particulary the engine numbers, I have an engine which I was told came from a British built warship that was scrapped in Australia in the 1920's. .One of its castings has stamped on a chissled face 1 3 67. The engine was built in Ireland. My engine is a small single cyl vert. steam engine.
It would be a simple matter to check the engine number if I could locate the records ,if they still exist. could anyone help. I'd appreciate it. thankyou.

[rogersjr]

Just about all we know about the Cerberus engines can be seen at www.cerberus.com.au/engines.html

If you can give us more information about where you obtained the engine, dimensions, a photo and any other details on it I will pass it on to our engine expert.
You can send a photo to the following address:- http://www.cerberus.com.au/email_address1.jpg