RN Submarines: E-Class

[TheDigger]

During the night of August 19, 1915 the British submarines E.8 and E.13 attempted to pass through the narrow waters of the Sound, between Denmark and Sweden.The submarines were on passage to reinforce the British submarine forces already operating in the Baltic area

Danish and Swedish Naval vessels were patrolling the Sound, protecting the neutrality of these two countries during the Great War. In combination with heavy mining in the waters, this short passage could quickly turn into a nightmare

The British submarine E.8 succeeded the passage without being spotted. The CO had chosen a route close to the Danish coast, leading him to the west of the small Danish island, Saltholm.

E.13, commanded by Lieutenant Commander Geoffrey Layton made a course close to the Swedish coast, leading the sub east of Saltholm. However, the E.13 ran out of luck. Apparently due to a compass failure, the E.13 ran aground in shoal waters, somewhat to the southeast of Saltholm.

At dawn the grounding was observed by a Danish naval vessel on patrol in the Sound. The nationality of the submarine was at this moment unclear to the Danes. The Danish guard ship, the old gun boat FALSTER, was anchored just to the west off Saltholm.

Danish Naval Command issued the following order:

If the submarine is German, and other German ships are trying to assist, you shall deliver an official protest. No other means are allowed. If the submarine is English, you must forestall any attempt to seize or attack the submarine. First you should signal an official protest, and if no respect is shown to the protest, you are allowed to use all necessary means available."

Around 5 a.m. the Danish torpedo boat NARHVALEN, was the first ship at the scene and could make a positive identification of the grounded submarine, as a British E-class submarine.

Upon arrival, the Danish torpedo boat NARHVALEN immediately went along-side the grounded British submarine and informed E.13's commanding officer (CO), Lieutenant Commander Geoffrey Layton, that the E.13 in accordance with the Danish neutrality and International rules, was required to depart from Danish territorial water within 24 hours or the ship and crew would be interned.

Additional shipping was ordered to the site of the E13 grounding and included the torpedo boats SOULVEN the TUMLEREN and the STOREN. Around 8.45 a.m. the 3 Danish torpedo boats arrived at the scene.

Meanwhile German naval vessels on patrol just to the south of Saltholm, in the northern part of Koege Bay, had also observed E.13' predicament. The Danish Torpedo Boat STØREN reported that a German torpedo boat passed close by the stranded E.13.

Initially, the German torpedo boat did nothing other than to keep the E.13 under observation. At 10.28 a.m. the CO of the SØULVEN reported two German torpedo boats approaching from the south at full speed.

The German torpedo boats G132 and G134 approached the E.13 from the south. An attack on the British submarine E.13 was doubtlessly being initialized. On the mast of the G132, one could observe the signal "Abandon ship" being communicated to the E.13.

Immediately upon coming within firing range, the G132 fired a torpedo aimed at the E.13. However, the torpedo missed its target and exploded upon striking the sea floor bottom close to the E.13. The German torpedo boat immediately thereafter employed its deck gun against the defenseless British submarine.

Within a short while the sub was hit several times and fire broke out onboard. The electrical batteries on the sub had been hid and poisonous chlorine gas was spreading inside the sub. After a short time, the sub's CO, Lt.Cdr. Geoffrey Layton, ordered his crew to abandon the burning submarine - There was nothing else they could do in the situation. The attack on the E.13 lasted no more than 3 minutes.

Immediately after the British CO had ordered his crew to abandon ship and British submariners were attempting to swim the few hundred meters to firm ground, the Danish torpedo boats finally intervened. The Torpedo Boat SØULVEN, who was anchored close to the British submarine, slipped her anchor and immediately turned to full speed.

At the same time the SØULVEN launched one of her lifeboats trying to rescue some of the surviving submariners then she sailed in between the British submarine and the German torpedo boats, approaching the German torpedo boats at full speed, to protest against this violation of the Danish neutrality.

At the same time, the Torpedo Boat STØREN also sailed in between the E.13 and the German torpedo boats, and began rescuing the surviving British submariners swimming around in the water. However, immediately following the Danish intervention, the G132 and G134 aborted their violent attack and were proceeding southward at full speed.

The surviving British submariners, 14 in total, including the CO, Lt.Cdr. Layton, were later brought to Holmen Naval Base in Copenhagen by the Danish Torpedo Boat STØREN. On the very same day, the Royal Danish Navy retrieved the bodies of 14 dead British submariners, all drowned. A few days later, the body of the 15th and last submariner was retrieved. All the dead submariners were brought to Holmen.

During the whole episode the English Naval Ensign was flying from the short mast of the E.13. The E13 crew now had to face the fact that, for them, their participation in the Great War was over. They would be interned in Denmark, and would only be released at the conclusion of hostilities. For most of them, this is what happened. The CO and the 1st officer escaped sometime later and returned to England.

The wreckage of the E.13 was later on salvaged by the Danes, and brought to the Naval Dock Yard in Copenhagen. After the end of the Great War the wreckage was sold for scrap.

[The Sailor]

A good story Digger. I read it all and researched further.


15 Dead British Submariners
The surviving British submariners, 14 in total, including the CO, Lt.Cdr. Layton, were later brought to Holmen Naval Base in Copenhagen by the Danish Torpedo Boat STØREN.

On the very same day, the Royal Danish Navy retrieved the bodies of 14 dead British submariners, all drowned.

A few days later, the body of the 15th and last submariner was retrieved. All the dead submariners were brought to Holmen.

During the whole episode the English Naval Ensign was flying from the short mast of the E.13.

A few more pics of that action

[herakles]

What a time the sailors must have suffered in those early subs.

Your most interesting post reminds me of the trials and tribulations of the subs in the Gallipoli campaign. Might put a post together on that story.

[tinduck]

Here some scans showing some of the different guns fitted to the E class in WW1. None of the class carried guns pre-war (no RN subs did) but wartime soon saw things change. The North Sea based boats seemed to have initially received 6pdr guns on extemporised HA mounts, while the boats in the Med and Dardanelles received larger LA guns, as there were more opportunities for surface gun actions in these areas.

E20 carried the largest gun on an RN submarine (apart from the M class), but was lost before she had a chance to use it.

Dave

[Jan Steer]

Some great pictures there chaps. I have the launch set for E1, one of the Baltic subs that were eventually scuttled in what is now Helsinki harbour.
E1 had a good if short career: she torpedoed and crippled "Moltke". The newspaper cutting is from "The Times" I believe and reads thus:
LAUNCH OF A SUBMARINE
Mrs. Anson, wife of Rear Admiral Charles E. Anson, Superintendent of Chatham Dockyard, on Saturday launched E1, the first of a new class of submarine boats. The usual secrecy has been observed in building the boat, but it is known that it is larger and more powerful than either of the submarines previously constructed at Chatham, and that it will carry a gun, which will disappear automatically before the vessel descends below the surface of the water. The launch, which was entirely successful, was witnessed by an assemblage composed of dockyard and naval officers and their families. It is expected that E1 will be completed and equipped ready for comission during the present financial year. E2 and E7 and E8 are to be built and completed at Chatham in 1913-14. The propelling machinery of all these submarines will be made in the dockyard.

Hope this is of interest
regards
Jan

[Jan Steer]

sorry guys forgot to upload the photo! Must be an age thing!!
Jan

[astraltrader]

Many thanks Dave - great Pics...

[jbryce1437]

Great pics Dave, and interesting to see the one of the O boat at Arrochar. I stayed in a hotel directly opposite (possibly from where the photo was taken) last year. Needless to say, the depot is now unused and derelict.

[Antoine]

The E-class submarines at Reval aboard the depot ship "Dvina", 1916:

[qprdave]

From The Times Archive 9th June 1913

[Antoine]

E class submarines in Baltic:
- E19 before cruising to Baltic;
- E13 damaged by the German destroyer G132 by Danish coast;
- E class submarine in Baltic (can somebody identify her?);
- E18;
- E class submarine in Baltic in wintertime (what submarine exactly?);
- E class submarines aboard the depot ship "Dvina" (what exactly again?);
- Crew of E19;
- Rewarding British sailors;
- British and Russian submariners on the "Pamyat Azova" (ex-"Dvina"), May 20, 1917.

[Dreadnought]

Hi Antoine,

Have tried enhancing the photos of the unknown E's to see if it would yield any clues .... but it didn't ...!!

Maybe it might help someone else to though.

Great pics by the way ...

[BALTICSUBS]

Hi All,

those photos, the first one is the E8, Gun & wireless deck tube aft of the CT.

The iced up sub is E19.

The one with the three beside Divina, hard agaist the Dvina with the 30 ft wireless mast in the stowed position is the E19, outboard of her is the E1, and forward of them both is the E8 which seems to be doing some sort of listing trials.

Hope this helps

DB

[jbryce1437]

Another mystery solved;)

[Antoine]

Hope this helps

DB

THANK YOU!!!

[BALTICSUBS]

Not a problem,

i know these submarines very well and can easily pick which is which as all5 British subs in the Baltic had unique features.

DB

[Dreadnought]

There do not appear to be a tremendous amount of photographs of these two E-Class submarines. This (E39E41_1) is an original photograph (not a postcard) in my personal collection, on the rear of which is written, in pencil, that it was taken in Blyth, in 1918.

Blyth was a shipyard and submarine base during both World Wars.

Both submarines were group III of it’s class, designed as an overseas submarine minelayers.

E39 was built by Palmers, Jarrow, launched on the 18th of May 1916, and then completed by Armstrong Whitworth on the Tyne on the 30th. She was commissioned in October of the same year and spent her career with the 10th Flotilla on the Tees, before being sold for scrap in on the 13th October 1921. On the 13th September 1922, on her way to the breakers under tow, she foundered in Watick Bay, Milford Haven.

E44 was built by Swan Hunter, Wallsend, and launched on the 21st February 1916. On the 18th July, she was also commissioned to the 10th Flotilla. She was sold to the South Wales Salvage Company for scrapping on the 13th October 1922.

The photograph also has written on the rear “HMS Lucia?” This is almost certainly correct as she is listed as the 10th Flotilla Depot Ship in August 1916, under the command of Captain Leonard A.B. Donaldson.


E39_1: Photograph of E39 on the rocks some 120 metres outside Watick Bay on the Dale side of Milford Haven (date unknown). She was subject to heavy salvage, and although a popular dive today, there is little left of her now.

Original source of photograph (E39_1) unknown. No copyright restrictions evident.

[astraltrader]

A really interesting picture of the two E-Class submarines with the depot Lucia.

Many thanks for showing us the postcard Clive. :)

[Dreadnought]

The E-Class submarines were designed for work overseas and had a slightly larger hull than the previous D-Class, in order to house her much larger 800 bhp diesel engines and 420 ehp electric motors. This, in reality though, only resulted in a small performance improvement over her predecessor.

The larger hull did however allow for more fuel to be carried, and extra armament; 4 x 18 inch torpedo tubes (1 bow, I stern, 2 beam), with 8 torpedoes carried.

E-Class were the first British submarines to have watertight bulkheads that enabled compartments to be sealed off in an emergency.

A total of fifty-seven boats (3 groups) were built by a number of various shipyards from 1911-1916, urgent build programmes being accelerated by the outbreak of the War. Twenty-eight were lost in action.

E1 (ex-D9) and E2 (ex-D10) were built at HM Dockyard, Chatham, both being laid down on the 14th February 1911.

Submarine E1

E1 was launched on the 9th November 1912, and commissioned on the 6th May 1913 (See post #5). When war broke out, she was attached to the 8th Flotilla at Harwich, and on the 15th October 1914, she sailed from Harwich (commanded by Lt Cdr Noel Laurence) ) with E9 (Lt Cdr Max Horton) an E11 (Lt Cdr Martin Naismith) with orders to make their way to the Baltic to find and attack German warships. More of E9 and E11, and their Baltic adventure in later posts.

After a gruelling trip, E1 and E9 arrived safely in the Baltic on the 18th October. During their perilous journey, Laurence, in E1, had encountered the light cruiser Victoria Luise, near Falsterbo Reef, but attack was made difficult by the fact that the water was shallow, and even when on the bottom, there was less than 15 feet above the conning tower. However, Laurence fired his bow torpedoes and then went to the bottom and waited. Unfortunately, one torpedo ran underneath the cruiser, and seeing the wake, the Victoria luise was able to turn out of the path of the second, which ran across her bows.

Later on after meeting two more enemy ships which he could not get into position to attack, he pushed on to Bornhelm in the southern Baltic, before attempting to reach his final destination of the Russian port of Libau, which was to be E1’s operating base. They negotiated heavy minefields in the harbour only to find that upon arrival, the base had been deserted. E1 eventually moved north to Lapvik, on the coast of Finland, where she underwent much needed repairs before continuing her prowling of Baltic waters with E9.

On August 15th 1915, E1 sighted a squadron of enemy battlecruisers steaming line abreast (Seydlitz, Moltke and Von Der Tann). They were part of a large force led by Von Hipper which was heading towards the Gulf of Riga on a mission to destroy the Russian naval forces in the Gulf and facilitate the fall of Riga to the German army advancing on the Eastern front. The weather conditions were awful with choppy seas, and fog causing low visibility. Upon the sighting, E1 went quickly into action and let loose two bow torpedoes, but then had to dive to avoid a squadron of destroyers that suddenly appeared out of the fog. The crew felt the concussion of an explosion but were unable to surface to periscope depth to see what had happened. One of the torpedoes had hit the bow of Moltke, but had only damaged her. She was able to limp back to port, and was repaired within a month.

However, the attack unnerved Von Hipper and the planned German attack was aborted, preventing the base falling into German hands. For this, Laurence was presented to the Russian Tsar, who personally decorated him with the Order of St. George for saving the city of Riga.

In late 1915, Laurence was recalled home and Lieutenant Commander Fenner took command. During 1916 while operating in the Baltic, boats were painted bright red below the waterline and green with brown spots above.

At the end of the war, Russia signed a separate peace treaty (Treaty of Brest-Litovsk) with Germany which demanded the surrender of any British submarines in a Russian port. On April 3rd 1918, E1, along with E9 and E19 left Helingsford (Helsinki) and were scuttled by their crews to avoid them falling into enemy hands.

E1-1: Postcard of E1
E1-2: Photograph of Noel Laurence and Max Horton (left)


Both pictures in the public domain.

[Dreadnought]

Submarine E2

As previously mentioned, E2 was originally ordered by the Admiralty as D10, and laid down along with with E1 on the 14th February 1911 at Chatham. She was launched on the 23rd November 1912 by the wife of Captain Seymour Erskine, the Commodore of the Royal Naval Barracks at Chatham. E2 was commissionmed on the 13th July 1913, and in January 1914 she was assigned to the 8th Flotilla which initially operated out of Porstmouth, but moved to Harwich at the outbreak of the War.

In August 1915, commanded by Commander David De Beauvoir Stocks, E2 was ordered to the Dardanelles to relieve E14, which was commanded by Lieutenant Commander Edward Courtney Boyle VC. More of him in future posts.

Her passage was not an easy one. On her way though the narrows, just off Nagara, she became badly entangled in wire and nets. Half a turn of three and a half inch wire had had caught below her deck gun, and a full turn of smaller rope was wrapped round the conning tower. For ten minutes, Stocks tried to dive out of the tangle with the full force he could muster. Whilst in this position, surface boats, aware of her predicament, were dropping bombs down on top of her, some of which may have actually helped to free E2, as she was finally able to break free. As a result of this incident, the hull of the submarine suffered severe damage, causing leaks. She however continued on and managed to make a planned rendezvous with E11 and re-supply her with ammunition for her twelve pounder, before she left for the Bosphorus.

Stocks then went about trying to repair his boat. The gun mounting bolts had been sheared off during the struggle to escape from the ensnarement, and some of the rivets below the mounting were loosend, causing leaks that prevented diving to any significant depth. After several days, the gun was successfully re-mounted, and E2 went into action, successfully attacking coastal steamers and dows.

On the 21st of August Stocks torpedoed and sank a 1500 ton steamer in Artaki Bay, and then on the 22nd sank a large steamer off Mudania pier.

On the 28th of August E2, along with E11, both using their twelve pounders, bombarded a magazine and railway station at Mudania, a port on the shouth shore opposite Constantinople.

The crew of E2, on hearing about the exploits of D’Oyly Hughes on E11, who swam ashore and blew up a railway bridge, decided that they too wanted to carry out a similar raid.

On September 7th, E2’s Lieutenant Lyon swam, carrying explosives, out to two dhows which he successfully blew up. The next morning, just after midnight, he swam out again, this time heading for shore by a small village 3 miles west of San Stefano. In front of him, he pushed a raft upon which was a guncotton demolition charge, his revolver, and his clothes. His mission, to destroy a railway bridge. E2 waited for Lyon, or the sound of an explosion confirming a successful result. But nothing was heard. They waited all day and still nothing. Then at the following dawn, they heard a massive explosion. They waited for Lyon to return, but he did not appear. At 7.00 a.m. Stocks was forced to sea, but returned again the following dawn, desperatley hoping for some sign of Lyon. He was never seen or heard of again.

E2 continued her operations, but with a man short and still suffereing from leaks. To add to their problems, fuel oil had made it’s way into her main fresh water supply, depriving the crew of drinking water. Then, as she passed through the Narrows she broke off one of her hydroplanes as she struggled to avoid more nets. Fianally, she managed to find safety with the rest of her patrol.

It wasn’t until January 1916 that E2 was recalled from the Sea of Marmora, joining the Mediteranean Flotilla, at Malta, later in the year.

E2 was paid off on the 7th of March 1921 and sold to B. Zammit, Malta for scrap.


David Stocks, as Commander of K4, drowned at the Battle of May Island 31st January 1918 when the submarine was accidently sunk, with the loss of all 55 crew, by the battlecruiser HMS Australia.


E2_1: Postcard of E2, date unknown but it looks as if the paying off pennant is being flown, which would put th date as March 1921.


Postcard from my personal collection

[peter schofield]

The Times - 24 January 1974

Vice Admiral AshmoreSubmarines in the Baltic
The recent death of Vice Admiral Leslie Ashmore has removed one of the last survivors of that colourful episode of the First World War the deployment of a flotilla of British submarines under Max Horton to the Baltic where they operated under Russian command.

Ashmore was a Sub-Lieutenant in 1914 when he was appointed to the submarine E18 one of the boats which made the difficult and perilous passage through the Sound in the face of intensive enemy patrols expressly searching for them in water barely deep enough to cover them. Those that got through operated at first from a Russian depot ship at Tallinn, moving later to Hango in Finland. The harassing of German shipping in the Baltic by this flotilla caused the Germans ruefully to call it Hortons Sea. When some smaller C-Class boats were transferred to the Baltic by Archangel and the Russian river and canal system Ashmore was given command of one of them. The onset of the Russian revolution and the German advance towards Finland eventually forced the scuttling of the submarines by their crews who then travelled by rail to Archangel on passage to England.

Subsequently when in command of another submarine in the Mediterranean, Ashmore responded for a call for volunteers with knowledge of Russian and became Intelligence Officer to the British Squadron supporting the White Russians at Sevastopol. A young Russian Guards officer named Shutt attached to him as liaison officer invited him to his parent’s villa in Crimea where they had fled from their home in St Petersburg; there he met Shutt’s sister Tamara falling mutually in love the married within three weeks. The marriage proved to be a lifelong romance.

In 1938-39 Leslie Ashmore was Flag Captain to Admiral Sir Percy Noble C in C China Station an appointment which put the two men by consent the best-dressed in the Navy, in the same ship. Arthritis of the spine, which had developed in that time and which was to afflict him painfully and increasingly for the rest of his life, kept him at first kept him from service in the Second World War; but in 1942-43 he commanded the battleship Valiant and was awarded the DSO for the part she played in the operations at Salerno. In 1944 he achieved flag rank and served as Director of Naval Training. A heart attack in November of that year cut short his career but before retiring in 1947 held the post of Flag Officer Reserve Fleet.

Leslie Ashmore will probably be best remembered for his humanity and integrity which made him a much respected and revere commander and leader of men. He is survived by his two sons Edward and Peter, whose brilliant careers must have been a source of great pride to him in his retirement. The former is an Admiral and is First Sea Lord designate; Peter is a Vice Admiral and Master of the Royal Household.

[BALTICSUBS]

On August 15th 1915, E1 sighted a squadron of enemy battlecruisers steaming line abreast (Seydlitz, Moltke and Von Der Tann). They were part of a large force led by Von Hipper which was heading towards the Gulf of Riga on a mission to destroy the Russian naval forces in the Gulf and facilitate the fall of Riga to the German army advancing on the Eastern front. The weather conditions were awful with choppy seas, and fog causing low visibility. Upon the sighting, E1 went quickly into action and let loose two bow torpedoes, but then had to dive to avoid a squadron of destroyers that suddenly appeared out of the fog. The crew felt the concussion of an explosion but were unable to surface to periscope depth to see what had happened. One of the torpedoes had hit the bow of Moltke, but had only damaged her. She was able to limp back to port, and was repaired within a month.

However, the attack unnerved Von Hipper and the planned German attack was aborted, preventing the base falling into German hands. For this, Laurence was presented to the Russian Tsar, who personally decorated him with the Order of St. George for saving the city of Riga.

The actual events that happened were Horton had been trying to get in on these Battlecruisers the previous days, even coming under fire from Seydlitz. Moltke was hit after E1 replaced E9, then Moltke was escorted back to base by the other battlecruisers, after which Hipper went straight back to cover the force within the Gulf. E1 was not the reason for the Germans leaving, it was when they realized they could not hold the Gulf without the support of the Army and ground forces. This they did in 1917. So it was either propaganda or assumptions that the Germans fled due to E1, or both.

[Dreadnought]

Thanks for clarifying that Balticsubs.

[BALTICSUBS]

Hi Clive,

post #19 shows Laurence, but i don't think that is Horton, looks nothing like the great man. Those 2 hated each other and had an extremely strained relationship in the Baltic, so i could not picture them so chummy like this.

Also E39 & E44, these two subs during WW1 also operated from Murmansk and were tied to HMS Glory. From what i have worked out the Royal Navy was sending submarines to this little know area due to reports of German minelayers operating off there. There were also 3 G Class sent on this run, but that is a magnificent shot of E39 & E44.

[BALTICSUBS]

Just a quickie, in my time in Kew recently i'm not sure whether people know other than documnets, they have a huge collection of builders photos of RN Vessels, one chap put me onto this and he ordered out photos of new RN Battleships, photos are huge and normally on thick backing.

I copied all submarine photos they had, here is one, E25 about to be launched 23/8/1915.

[Dreadnought]

Hi Clive,

post #19 shows Laurence, but i don't think that is Horton, looks nothing like the great man. Those 2 hated each other and had an extremely strained relationship in the Baltic, so i could not picture them so chummy like this.

That confuses me. although I admit to having the caption round the wrong way - now corrected.

That is surely Horton on the left as a lieutenant? ... which he would have been then (around Aug/Sep 1914); not promoted to Commander until December. According to the photo source he is stood with Laurence during his time in the Baltic.

Photogrpah of Horton as Admiral - the eyes and nose the same?

[culverin]

E25 shown above was an oddity together with E26 as they were never ordered by the RN, but by Turkey as part of a large Naval contract.
The original contract was with Vickers who had no spare capacity so sub contracted the building to Beardmores. Odd as they had never built a sub before, but the company were keen to enter the lucrative submarine construction market so a special covered double slip was built at their Dalmuir yard, completed in 1913 and construction commenced in Nov 1914. The outbreak of WW1 ensured no warships building for Turkey would ever be handed over, so the 2 were requisitioned and construction continued for the RN.
E25 yard no520 launched 23 Aug 1915, completed 2 Oct 1915
E26 yard no 521 launched 11 Nov 1915 completed 20 Dec 1915 occupying berth next to E25
Costs of each boat £67488, contract £98953, a profit of £31465
Beardmores also built E53 and E54 for £111000 each and completed E47 and E48 being built by Fairfields after their launching.
E25 survived WW1 and sold for bu 14 Dec 1921. E26 was lost on 6 July 1916

[peter schofield]

Darren (Balticsubs) hope this information is of some use to you, there may be some typos in it

Naval Honours London Gazette Appendix, April 20th 1918
The Submarine Service
The King has been pleased to approve of the award of the following decorations and medals to the officers and men in recognition of distinguished service performed in difficult circumstances and during a long period in British submarines operating in the Baltic Sea.

Distinguished Service Cross

Lt. B.N. Downie RN
Mate J.P. White RN

Distinguished Service Medal

AB R Ambrose ON
ERA 2nd Cl C Bateman ON 271891 (Ch)
ERA 2nd Cl JD Carden Bonham ON M1213 (Po)
ERA 3rd Cl H Bowles ON M742 (Ch)
PO GG Harris ON 176377 (Po)
Act Sto PO G Hutchins ON K23 (Po)
PO HJ Ling ON 238181 (Ch)
PO T McCarthy ON 216563 (Dev)
Sto PO HG Mathews ON 300193 (Po)
PO HA Smith ON 215511 (Po)
Ldg Sto JJT Ursell ON 358524 (Po)
Sto PO TJL Williams ON 305522 (Dev)
ERA 2nd Cl H Wilson ON M438 (Po)

Mentioned in Dispatches

Lt Cdr. H Vaughan-Jones RN
ERA 3rd Cl JW Brand ON 272304 (Po)
Ldg Sea AE Carslake ON J3430 (Dev)
Ldg Sea AJ Cossey ON J10240 (Ch)
PO WH Croxall ON 213307 (Ch)
PO W Gowler ON 181987 (Po)
AB HB Haynes ON J3030 (Ch)
CERA 1st Cl J McDougall ON 269398 (Po)
PO J Mackie ON224035 (Po)
PO J Mansbridge ON 193930 (Po)
AB J Rayment ON 234573 (Ch)
PO J Rooney ON 233239 (Dev)
Ldg Sea SH Sayer ON J8975 (Ch)
Sto PO GAA Scott ON 310703 (Po)
Ldg Sto OE Selsby ON 307757 (Po)
Ldg. Sea WFJ Simms ON 214773 (Po)
AB AP Steel ON 214623 (Po)
Ch Sto A Tuttle ON 293488 (Ch)
Ldg. Sea SE Western ON J6283 (Dev)
ERA 2nd Cl EA White ON M1660 (Ch)

[BALTICSUBS]

That is surely Horton on the left as a lieutenant? ...

Here is a definate shot of the brothers in arms, Horton on our left. These 2 hated each other, the Russians loved Horton and wanted his to stay on and command the British Flotilla, but Horton had gone behind his back, as Laurence was senior, and complained about him. Goodheart was in the Horton Camp, Halahan was in the Laurence camp, Cromie was not bought into it.

[Dreadnought]

Nice one Darren. And I reckon they are the very same as in the other photo ... at least now that I have the caption correct ..!! Thanks for raising it.

Horton was surely one ouir greatest naval heroes.

[BALTICSUBS]

Horton was the idol of many up and coming submarine officers, and rightly so as his exploits in E9 are the stuff of Legends. And he was the first man to fly the skull & cross bones to stick it up the rest of the navy calling them pirates. Had E9 been equipped with more reliable torpedoes he would have achieved much more.

The photo, still not convinced, but, i guess you will notice, and it was his reputation, that photo may be rare, that he rarely smiled. And it was said, he could drink the Russians under the table. So a photo showing his smile not, normal.

[Hank]

Interesting images, Baticsub.- I've two questions regarding them. Who is the Russian officer seated between Horton and his counterpart? Any idea who's spike helmet Horton is holding in the latter image? Regards

[BALTICSUBS]

I've two questions regarding them. Who is the Russian officer seated between Horton and his counterpart? Any idea who's spike helmet Horton is holding in the latter image? Regards

No idea who that Russian Officer is, or why Horton has the Spiked German Helmet. I checked the book Forgotten Flotilla which has this photo of Russian, they have him listed as unknown, so if the sub museum who produced this book does not know, it will be hard to know who he is, I may send it to my contacts in St Petersburg.

OK, here is some light reading for lovers of E Class subs.

[culverin]

The German armoured cruiser SMS Prinz Adalbert attracted a lot of attention from the E class.
2 July 1915 torpedoed and damaged by E9
then no sooner than she was repaired the next encounter on
23 Oct 1915 torpedoed and sunk by E8
was her last. Virtually her entire crew perished in the huge explosion that rent her apart.

[Czehooo]

BALTICSUBS can you make this book

[BALTICSUBS]

BALTICSUBS can you make this book

Book too big, if there is any particularpart you would like to see, some part of the submarine. let me know.

[dennis a feary]

Following on posting by Peter, find here the awards to Lt Downie ;

DOWNIE Basil N N/E Lt. RN 82O059 S/M E.19Commodore (S) 15.02.19 Gazetted
Destruction of British Submarines in the Baltic 3 - 5 April, 1918 M in D
Their Lordships' appreciation expressed of the successful execution of the duties of carrying out the destruction of the British Submarines in the Baltic, rendered necessary by the German advance on Helsingfors.

DOWNIE Basil N N/E Lt. RN 82O050 S/M E.1
British Naval Liason Officer in Russia 26.04.18 Gazetted
In British Submarines in the Baltic 1917 DSC
At the time of the taking of the Osel and Dago by the enemy, he was obliged to take his boat, which was seriously damaged to Pernaw. He has operated in the Gulf of Riga ever since, and has eventually brought his boat safely through the Irben Strait to Helsingfors. I consider that he has shown considerable resource in difficult circumstances and deserves great credit.

Sadsac

[Alex Shenec]

Hi.

Interesting images, Baticsub.- I've two questions regarding them. Who is the Russian officer seated between Horton and his counterpart? Any idea who's spike helmet Horton is holding in the latter image? Regards

It is the captain of 2nd rank (approximately commander) Fedor Vladimirovich Vasiliev-5th, the commander depot ship "Rynda".

Best regards

Alex

[BALTICSUBS]

Hi Alex,

good to hear from you, wow, now i know who he is, the photo contains many other Russian Officers, did you think you could Identify more?

The photo is not my property, so would have to send it via a PM. Not sure if you have my private email?

[Alex Shenec]

Hi BALTICSUBS.

The officer have identified at Russian forum "kortic.borda.ru" known to you.

Best regards

Alex

[BALTICSUBS]

Thanks Alex, just haven't been on there for some time, must have a look again:)

[dennis a feary]

BalticSubs / Darren, in posting 28 Peter has thrown up what seems to be something of an `anomaly' !!
He posts PO J ROONEY D 233239 (Born Liverpool) as receiving a `Mention' for services in C.26
BUT, in a previous contact with you, you have given me a J ROONEY K17697 (Born Carlisle) as being C.26. You have him posted as AB, but as you can see, by his number `K' he must have ben a STOKER.
I know (from our meetings in KEW) that you have many ADM 188's - so have you got the 188's of these two ratings ???
There are other anomalies / typo's in the list, so will come back on them later.
What think you.

Sadsac

[BALTICSUBS]

Hi Deniis,

hope this helps, just checked his papers

Rooney Joseph 233239 Petty Officer Coxswain
Forth 25/11/1911,
Arrogant & B5,
Maidstone,
E19 Base in Baltic & C26,
Dolphin & Jan Draft Home,
Dolphin & F1,
Maidstone & H51 to Baltic,
left subs 27/2/1920

This is only Rooney i have on my data base.

Do you have an S Olsen from early days and served on Hollands?

[dennis a feary]

Darren, no further info on OLSEN & Hollands I am afraid.
Find here details of submarine service of

ROONEY JOSEPH PO SC D 233239 MiD RN 011287 111125
TC 111125
FORTH 141101 ARROGANT
160720 MAIDSTONE
C26 160801 E19
SC 180115 DOLPHIN
F1 180710 THAMES
F1 180905 THAMES
F1 181007 DOLPHIN
ADDL 181122 DOLPHIN
H51 181125 PEMBROKE YARD ADV P
H51 190704 MAIDSTONE
TO VIVID FOR G/S 28/2/20 AWO 38/20

Rooney, Joseph, Leading Seaman, #K17697 of Carlisle, Cumberland, Born 17-11-1894. Rooney was part of the orginal crew that took C26 out to the Baltic. Rooney was rated a Petty Officer Coxswain on the 18-6-1917. Rooney received a Mention in Despatches while in the Baltic. Rooney departed Helsingfors in the Baltic, via Petrograd to Murmansk, by train with the main group. Once in Murmansk they travelled to England on the armed merchant cruiser Andes, an ex Royal Mail liner, arriving back in England on the 15-1-1918.
ADM 188 / 413 P.o.B ; LIVERPOOL LANCS
MiD Awarded London Gazette 20 April 1918 for Operations in Baltic

ROONEY JOSEPH L/SEA ???? K 17697 MiD RN 171194 NE P.o.B ; Carlisle ADM 188 / 902
MiD Awarded London Gazette 20 April 1918 for Operations in Baltic C.26 THIS ENTRY IS SUSPECT - SEE PO J ROONEY D 233239

Will get ADM 188 for both on my next visit PRO to try to sort out `anomaly'.

My Email address here also.

Sadsac

[BALTICSUBS]

Hi Dennis,

the dates for Rooney's return is wrong in January 1918. I can see a particular website, well all i can say, i showed them some of my working notes, next minute they were used on their website, and these dates were only what is shown on their papers, which as you know do not refect actual events. So arriving back in England on the 15th is wrong.

I will check the Stoker number on my data base.

[dennis a feary]

OK Darren, be interested to see what you come up with from your info base.
The date of 15 Jan 1918 for his return to England is taken from his Service Record Card - not always `correct' - BUT !!!

[BALTICSUBS]

Will look later, but when they stepped onboard Andes that is when their papers change to HMS Dolphin, from memory it was something like the 22nd of Jan they got home.

[dennis a feary]

AH, I see now Darren, all is revealed.
Of course DOLPHIN would become his `base' straight after leaving his prior boat / ship.

Sadsac

[culverin]

E8 was commanded by Cdr Francis H H Goodhart, describing his attack on SMS Prinz Adalbert as straightforward. Ref my post 34.
Using the bow tube and avoiding a destroyer the torpedo ran true striking the cruiser, distance 1600x after running 1 min 15 secs. Flames erupted from under the bridge and along the waterline. A further look amidst the smoke and she was gone all at once. A Mk V111 is some stuff. Awarded the DSO and Russian St George's Cross.
Goodhart remained with E8 for the rest of 1916 when he was recalled and given command of the new K14, then building. He had commanded E8 since prior to the outbreak of war as part of the 8th flotilla based on the Maidstone at Harwich. He had also previously commanded C6 and D3.
Keen to learn about the intricacies of his new command, he went to sea on sister K13 and was on board the day she sank in the Gareloch on 29 Jan 1917 at 1500 hours
He lost his life the following day whilst attempting an escape to assist the rescuers in their efforts to save her crew.
For this he was awarded by the King a posthumous Albert Medal in Gold, gazetted on 29 Apr 1918, for gallantry in saving life at sea.
Goodhart was recovered on 1 Feb and on the 6th was buried at Faslane Cemetery.

[rumrat]

I don't know if any of you guys are interested in these pictures of engines for the E & K Class Submarines made on tyneside by Wallsend Slipway & Engineering works.Incidently these pictures were found in a skip along with dozens of others.
Regards
Dave

[astraltrader]

Thanks Dave.

It really annoys me when I hear of people throwing away items of our history that others would always appreciate.

[Hank]

Reams of paper have been covered with the exploits of various submarine operations that stand as testimony to the bravery and skill of the men involved. None that I know of seem to stand out like the crew of the E-7 under Cochrane during their twenty four day cruise in the Sea of Marmora, February, 1915. I quote the second page of a letter written by a fellow who was party to the event. Regards

We broke all previous records. Cochrane was absolutely splendid. We went around the Sea of Marmora, leaving a trail of sunk and burning ships. We were the first submarine in history to bombard a place on shore under fire. I think we were under fire about three times a day on average, and penetrated into all sorts of places and destroyed shipping. We even shelled a railway and destroyed two troop-trains.Altogether we sank one gunboat, five steamers (one of 3,000 tons) and seventeen large sailing ships, and hit two trains, one railway embankment and a few villages that fired on us and 'got it in the neck' for doing so. We also dived up to Constantinople and fired a torpedo at the arsenal wharf where were a lot of ammunition lighters. There was a terrific explosion, which shook the boat, although we were one and one-quarter miles away. One day we had a duel with a small gunboat on the surface and drove her off, altho she fired 200 rounds from two guns. After that we were left alone, and everything ran like blazes when we got anywhere near.

We had no trouble diving in the Sea of Marmora, but when we came up we had an awful time, as the Turks rigged up all sorts of nets and things to catch us, and we got mixed up in them and also were fouled by mines three times. The reception we got on returning to base was great The whole fleet cheered us madly. Just imagine, all dirty and unshaven, our flag with bullet-holes all over it, our conning tower all dents from bullets, and rusty, steaming through the air and thousands of men cheering us like mad, battleships, cruisers, torpedo boats, transports, and captains leading cheers. I have heard cheers before, but this was the real thing. Poor old Cochranes eyes were full of tears as he saluted to the cries of 'Are we down-hearted?' and 'Well done, E-7!'

[dennis a feary]

Just caught up with this E Class
Observation re Post 28 by PETER ; for

AB R Ambrose ON - read - ON C/J 1565
Act Sto PO G Hutchins ON K23 (Po) - read - HutchinGs
ERA 2nd Cl H Wilson ON M438 (Po) - read - M458

Sadsac

[Nigel999]

Interesting Danish site regarding E13

http://www.navalhistory.dk/english/history/1914_1918/E13_%20incident.htm

Incidentally, out of interest, many will be familiar with the famous shot of Nasmith's E11 , with all her crew sitting on the casing after their patrol that earned Nasmith the VC. Does anyone know if all the men are, or can be identified ?

Concerning another "E" boat, this time E15. As will know, she was lost when grounded, and a number of her crew killed .

The Turks taking the survivors prisoner. I have heard that there is a photo of the survivors under guard, just after being taken prisoner. Does anyone know of it..and if so, is it known who the men are?

Cheers, Nigel

[dennis a feary]

Awards to Lt Downie ;

DOWNIE Basil N N/E Lt. RN 82O050 S/M E.1
British Naval Liason Officer in Russia 26.04.18 Gazetted
In British Submarines in the Baltic 1917 DSC
At the time of the taking of the Osel and Dago by the enemy, he was obliged to take his boat, which was seriously damaged to Pernaw. He has operated in the Gulf of Riga ever since, and has eventually brought his boat safely through the Irben Strait to Helsingfors. I consider that he has shown considerable resource in difficult circumstances and deserves great credit.

DOWNIE Basil N N/E Lt. RN 82O059 S/M E.19
Commodore (S) 15.02.19 Gazetted
Destruction of British Submarines in the Baltic 3 - 5 April, 1918 M in D
Their Lordships' appreciation expressed of the successful execution of the duties of carrying out the destruction of the British Submarines in the Baltic, rendered necessary by the German advance on Helsingfors.

Sadsac

[dennis a feary]

And the award to Mate White ;

WHITE John P N/E Mate RN 82O050 S/M C.27
British Naval Liason Officer in Russia 26.04.18 Gazetted
In British Submarines in the Baltic 1917 DSC
His coolness and unremitting work made it possible for Lieutenant Sealy to work C.27 successfully.

Sadsac

[Alex Shenec]

Hi.

Baltic, Revel. Date is unknown. Possibly, Great war.
It is found at a forum "kortic.borda.ru"

Bestr regards

Alex

[Dreadnought]

Lovely photo Alec ... have cleaned it up a bit, and although a little of the character may have been lost, it just shows somewhat clearer detail.

[BALTICSUBS]

Hi.

Baltic, Revel. Date is unknown. Possibly, Great war.
It is found at a forum "kortic.borda.ru"

Bestr regards

Alex

Hi Alex,

that photo shows from our left, E1, E9, & E8, with Gepard or Bars or both forward of the British E Class subs. It was taken late August 1915 or early September 1915. E1 & E9 were fitted with their deck guns around Feb 1916, and they are not fitted here.

E1 has yet to have her Russian external torpedo systems fitted, which were done after September 1915. I would be suggesting this photo is not long after E8 joined her sisters E1 & E9 in Late August 1915.

[Alex Shenec]

Darren, thanks!

[Alex Shenec]

Addition.
"White steamship" - freighter "Osiliya".
Tug - "Vladimir".
Russian submarines - "Bars" and "Gepard".

Hi.
Baltic, Revel. Date is unknown. Possibly, Great war.
It is found at a forum "kortic.borda.ru"

Best regards

Alex

[peter schofield]

There do not appear to be a tremendous amount of photographs of these two E-Class submarines. This (E39E41_1) is an original photograph (not a postcard) in my personal collection, on the rear of which is written, in pencil, that it was taken in Blyth, in 1918.

Blyth was a shipyard and submarine base during both World Wars.

Both submarines were group III of it’s class, designed as an overseas submarine minelayers.

E39 was built by Palmers, Jarrow, launched on the 18th of May 1916, and then completed by Armstrong Whitworth on the Tyne on the 30th. She was commissioned in October of the same year and spent her career with the 10th Flotilla on the Tees, before being sold for scrap in on the 13th October 1921. On the 13th September 1922, on her way to the breakers under tow, she foundered in Watick Bay, Milford Haven.

E44 was built by Swan Hunter, Wallsend, and launched on the 21st February 1916. On the 18th July, she was also commissioned to the 10th Flotilla. She was sold to the South Wales Salvage Company for scrapping on the 13th October 1922.

The photograph also has written on the rear “HMS Lucia?” This is almost certainly correct as she is listed as the 10th Flotilla Depot Ship in August 1916, under the command of Captain Leonard A.B. Donaldson.


E39_1: Photograph of E39 on the rocks some 120 metres outside Watick Bay on the Dale side of Milford Haven (date unknown). She was subject to heavy salvage, and although a popular dive today, there is little left of her now.

Original source of photograph (E39_1) unknown. No copyright restrictions evident.

By deduction:

E39 was Yard No.849 at Palmers, launched 18 May 1916 and completed October 1916
E40 was Yard No.850 at Palmers, launched ??? completed May 1917

[culverin]

E39
Ld 1-12-1914
L 18-5-1916
C 30-9-1916
E40
Ld 1-12-1914
L 9-11-1916
C 1-5-1917

[inversions]

I'm finding a lot of great historical detail and wonderful photos on this forum as a newcomer to the subject. I have a request for help with more information for modelling an E-class.

I'd be very grateful if anyone can share or direct me to detail shots or even schematics of some of the finer points of the e-class's structure. Particularly bow & stern and the planes, propellers, and under the waterline material/info also torpedo tubes. In fact more detailed photos or plans of any features would be very welcome e.g. conning tower etc.

In particular if anyone knows of any more drydock or in construction photos similar to the excellent one Balticsubs posted, that would be extremely helpful.

[Hank]

First post, Inversions? Welcome.

An internet available text contains starboard side line drawings of the three E-Class build groups in 1:320 scale.

Google books- Encyclopedia of British Submarines 1901-1955 by Paul Akermann. Patience in uploading the text will reward you with drawings starting on Page 154

Regards

[inversions]

Thanks for the welcome and the great tip Hank, much appreciated :)

[Alex Shenec]

Hi.

http://s010.radikal.ru/i314/1105/95/862084737253t.jpg (http://radikal.ru/F/s010.radikal.ru/i314/1105/95/862084737253.jpg.html)

E-19 in Revel, 1915. From a collection A.V. Plotto (http://kortic.b.qip.ru/).

Best regards

Alex

[BALTICSUBS]

Hi Inversions,

sent you a PM as i can send you orignal plans al 3 Groups of E Class. Wish someone would make a kit of an E Class, 1/72 scale:)

[frankburn]

Does anybody have a photo of these E class boats, all launched on the Tyne.
If you have I would be very grateful. I am researching into warships built on the Tyne.

E.29 1915-22
E.40 1915-21
E.43 1915-21
E.49 1916-17
Many Thanks Frank Burn

[BALTICSUBS]

Here is E25 & E26 plans

[BALTICSUBS]

Hi Frank,

you asked on the other thread about E30, here is my favorite photo of her. The others, no don't have any, may be able to find some, so will get back to you.

[frankburn]

Hi Frank,

you asked on the other thread about E30, here is my favorite photo of her. The others, no don't have any, may be able to find some, so will get back to you.

Thank you so much, I will look through my Glass plate negatives and see if I can come up with 1 or 2 interesting images. Iam sorry I asked on the wrong thread, Iam new to this forum.

[astraltrader]

Another photo of E30 plus another one you asked for - E44 taken with E39 and the depot ship Lucia.

[BALTICSUBS]

Hi Frank,

have tried my best, you have picked some hard boats. I find E43 interesting in that they seem to have reverted to the AE1, 2, E1 to E6 old larger Conning Tower & longer deck casing going aft. These had been reduced in boats after E6 so as to present a smaller silhouette, but I’m sure the crews would prefer the larger CT.

E49, I have only seen one of her wreck, but too murky. Years back 2 divers were taken to court due to they were accused of taking stuff from her wreck. These people smear many other decent divers with the same bad name and I wonder how they would feel if someone dug up their families graves for profit. With war wrecks it would not bother me if officially the RN did the same as their intension is honour and placing these items in a museum so we don’t forget the men, (Mary Rose for example), but others who do it for profit or mantle shelf pride lose credit in my eyes.

[frankburn]

Hi Frank,

have tried my best, you have picked some hard boats. I find E43 interesting in that they seem to have reverted to the AE1, 2, E1 to E6 old larger Conning Tower & longer deck casing going aft. These had been reduced in boats after E6 so as to present a smaller silhouette, but I’m sure the crews would prefer the larger CT.

E49, I have only seen one of her wreck, but too murky. Years back 2 divers were taken to court due to they were accused of taking stuff from her wreck. These people smear many other decent divers with the same bad name and I wonder how they would feel if someone dug up their families graves for profit. With war wrecks it would not bother me if officially the RN did the same as their intension is honour and placing these items in a museum so we don’t forget the men, (Mary Rose for example), but others who do it for profit or mantle shelf pride lose credit in my eyes.

I can not thank you enough for these great photos, yes burk and hair were hanged for less frank Burn

[Czehooo]

Looking for news about the E-29 and also photographs of 12-pound guns which was mounted on it

[culverin]

I am putting this on the E class thread for no reason other than they were the most widely used of the boats in RN service in WW1.

The question applies to all boats of all classes.

What battle honours were awarded to boats in WW1.

[dennis a feary]

The story of HMS/m E.17 and its conning-tower.

E.17, under the command of Lt.Cdr J.R.G Moncreiffe, on 6th January, 1916 was on patrol off the Haak Banks, off the Texel Island, Holland. Submerged, she ran aground, and then surfaced. It was hoped to set course for England, which with luck she may make.

However a Dutch Cruiser, the NORD BRABANT hove into sight and it was decided to abandon ship. The crew were rescued by the Cruiser and then sent to the Prisoner of War Camp at Groningen, Holland. Here picture of crew in Groningen Camp (HMS TIMBER).

The wreck of E.17 lay at rest on the Banks until 1986, when a researcher for the Royal Navy Submarine Museum, Gosport visited the Texel Island. There he met with the diver Hans Eelman. Mr. Eelman told the researcher of the existence of the E.17 wreck. `Why do you not raise the wreck’ replied the researcher `it is not a war grave, all the crew having been rescued’. Mr. Eelman said that it weighed 5 tons and was of copper. Came the reply `well, if that is so it must be worth some money as scrap and anyway the RNSM may well be interested in acquiring it’.

The conning-tower was therefore later raised, and in 1987 the researcher returned to the Island to see and measure it. This was done with Lt.Cdr Brian Head, RD, (Rtd), the Chairman of the Archive Working Party at the RNSM. Photographs were taken (see here), and on return to RNSM were shown to Mr. Gus Britton, the Curator, who expressed the wish to have it returned there. Conversations took place with The Director of the Museum, Commander Richard Compton-Hall, who agreed that it should be `at home’ in the Museum.

The tower was transported to the museum, courtesy of Royal Fleet Auxiliary vessel RFA ASTRAKAN. It was then decided to have the tower refurbished and placed on a concrete plinth outside of ALECTO Block at HMS DOLPHIN. This was done (see photo). It was used as a saluting-base for ceremonial duties. Later Vice-Admiral Submarines (VAS) decided he would like more room in the Base and the Tower was removed to a position in the Museum itself. See Photo(s).

Crew of E.17 in Groningen Camp.
The Tower on the Texel (3)
The researcher taking measurements (1)
The `head’ of Lt.Cdr Head from inside the C.T (1)
Lt.Cdr Head atop the C.T (2)
C.T in plinth outside ALECTO Block HMS DOLPHIN (1)
The Tower in the Museum (Is that a crew-member peering out of C.T ??) (2)

Sadsac

[dennis a feary]

WOOPS - missed out the `head' of Brian Head peering down the C.T.
Silly me !!!
Have more such if not too boring.

Sadsac

[Czehooo]

I have a question about anchors on E-29 on what page it was mounted on the left side or the right

[peter schofield]

‘E’ Class Submarines for the Greek Government
In a Memorandum (CP.01202 dated February 1914) by Commodore (S) – Commodore Roger Keyes discusses the difficulties of late deliveries of Submarines from the Vickers Shipyard. In his second paragraph he states:

2. ‘The situation has not improved, and in the light of the recent decision in regard to the 1914-1915 submarine programme, has in fact been seriously aggravated, since in all probability Messrs. Vickers will before long be building four or six ‘E’ Class submarines for Greece.’

He expands on this in regard to the proposed Greek Submarines as follows:

11. ‘It is understood that in the interests of general policy it is very desirable that the submarines, which Greece is proposing to order, should be built in England, and it is noted that Messrs. Vickers have been given permission – to build six vessels to the original ‘E’ Class design, except in regard to the broadside tubes which should be to our design – S.0615/13/25958 of 19th December 1913. This would be an admission that we recognise Messrs. Vickers’ right to manufacture and sell broadside tubes for Submarines.’
12. ‘It is quite understood that a special concession is being made to Greece, and that their Lordships have decided to give them the benefit of our Submarine experience. The value of this concession does not lie in the design of the submarine, which, as a submersible, compares very unfavourably with contemporary foreign vessels. It is entirely the question of the broadside tube which, rightly or wrongly, we consider infinitely superior to the system of using angle gyro torpedoes adopted by foreign nations.’
13. ‘It is considered that there can be no question of a Vickers design of broadside tube for submarines. It is an Admiralty secret, with the discovery of which Messrs. Vickers have in no way been associated. It is true that they are manufacturing broadside tubes for the NAUTILUS, and that is some small details the arrangements vary from those manufactured in the dockyards. The modifications are simply the result of suggestions made by Admiralty and Submarine officers, based on experience in the ‘E’ Class.’
14. ‘Messrs. Vickers have been in no way connected with the introduction or development of these tubes, and are in no position to manufacture broadside tubes which are not a copy of ours in all essential details.’
15. ‘It is believed to be generally known abroad that our later vessels are fitted with internal broadside tubes, and there can be no doubt that other nations are experimenting in this direction, and will eventually arrive at a satisfactory solution. Until we are satisfied that this is the case, it is considered that under no circumstances whatever should Messrs. Vickers be permitted to build submarines with broadside tubes, or to supply such tubes without the permission of the Admiralty.’

It is noted that as the joint patent holder the Admiralty refused to give Vickers permission the build the six ‘E’ Class submarines for Greece.

Supplied by Barrie Downer

[culverin]

Peter and your post above, 81.
All this appears in the submarine service pages 241-243, but in more detail.

[rumrat]

If anyone is interested here's a couple of photo's of the diesel engines built for E43 & E49 by the Wallsend Slipway and Engineering company at Wallsend on Tyne.
The boats themselves were built by Swan Hunter & Wigham Richardson at their Wallsend Yard in 1916 being Yard Numbers 985 and 985 repsectively.
Regards
Dave

[Dreadnought]

Cracking photos Dave - superb detail.

Thanks for sharing them.

[hood51]

Here's a photo I recently acquired.

It shows E 19 during the winter of 1917-1918 in the Baltic.

Hope it is of interest.

regards
Steve

[BALTICSUBS]

Hi Steve,

i can confirm that is my great grandfather's boat E18 taken on the 13th of January 1916. In the mid afternoon arriving at Reval.

It is often quoted as E19, but i have around 5 photos taken of her when she arrived on the 13th. She had to meet the ice breaker Sampo to get back in. Did the photo come from a collection of a crew member?

[dennis a feary]

Hello Darren, I have a chap who is a very interested & knowladgble fellow in submarines, and I have said that you may be able to help each other.
Do you mind if I give him your Email address. He is an ex-member of the RNSM AWP as I was. Also add sad news - LtCdr Brian Head has crossed the bar - you may recall that he was the Chairman of the AWP's.
RESURGAM

Sadsac

[BALTICSUBS]

Of Course Dennis.

I would like to take a minute to thank the Late Lt Cdr Telegraphist Brian Head for the invaluable work he carried out via the RNSM and via his own personal research. He was the resident expert on the WW1 Baltic Flotilla and never hesitated to help me. He happily gave me all he knew, he happily gave me his own time when he showed he all his files re the Baltic Flotilla at Gosport. He will be badly missed by all & i was happy he was given so much pleasure from his sick bed when E18 was found. (Something he thought would never happen in his lifetime).

His father knew my great grandfather, mine being E4's signalman 1917/18, & his father being the Telegraphist in E31 at the same time at Harwich. Brian's father was in G5, he was then supposed to go to E49, but illness kept his away. E49 then received Boy Telegraphist Arm, so Brian would tell me the story of how a relative of Telegraphist Arm rang him and quoted, "an Arm for a Head."

You won't be forgotten Brian, i will continue your good work. For those who have never read it, Brian wrote a three part series in the Warship books from the 1980's on his father's submarine E31, A GOOD READ. Also those who saw the British version of the HMAS AE2 documentary would have seen Brian featured about conditions on board an E Class boat.

[hood51]

Hi Steve,

i can confirm that is my great grandfather's boat E18 taken on the 13th of January 1916. In the mid afternoon arriving at Reval.

It is often quoted as E19, but i have around 5 photos taken of her when she arrived on the 13th. She had to meet the ice breaker Sampo to get back in. Did the photo come from a collection of a crew member?

Hi Darren,

Thanks for the correct details of the sub in my photo. I purchased it together with other photos (not of subs) on ebay a while ago and the album page had E19 on it (as seen in my post). I'm not very knowledgeable on subs - I'm a 'big ships' man myself.

Thanks once again.

regards
Steve

[BALTICSUBS]

Hi Steve,

no probs, it is surprising how many originals of these photos are kicking around, with this in mind one questions when some organizations claim copyright on them. I also have a good set of originals from a C Class crew member in the Baltic, of which I have seen them under copyright. Seems someone would take a photo, and many of the crew would pay for a copy, so who owns them?

[hood51]

Hi Steve,

no probs, it is surprising how many originals of these photos are kicking around, with this in mind one questions when some organizations claim copyright on them. I also have a good set of originals from a C Class crew member in the Baltic, of which I have seen them under copyright. Seems someone would take a photo, and many of the crew would pay for a copy, so who owns them?

Hi Darren,

I was always taught (when I worked at the NMM, Greenwich) that the photographer owned the copyright, irrespective of whether they sold/gave copies of their photos to others.

In the past, I have purchased slides from ebay and the seller has stated that he is transferring the copyright of them to the buyer when the transaction is completed, so then is no dispute there.

Where organisations claim copyright, unless they own the negatives/slides (whether by purchase or donation), then they are doing so illegally, in my opimion.

regards
Steve

[emason]

Having been involved professionaly in a copyright dispute, may I add my understanding of the copyright issue.

First of all, copyright is automatically owned by the originator of the work, be it an artwork, music, book, computer program or a photograph etc. What is copyrighted is the expression of an idea, an idea itself cannot be copyrighted. Copyright is automatically owned by the originator of the work. Only if the originator expressly wishes it, either verbally or preferably in writing can it be transferred to another party.

If the originator dies before it has been transferred, copyright is owned by the estate, unless the original has been bequeathed, in which case the copyright is assumed to have been also bequeathed land is now owned by the recipient. This bit is open to some debate when the originator dies intestate.

If you own a photograph, even if it is the only one in existence, you do not own the copyright if it was not expressly stated by the legal copyright owner, when you purchased it.

As an example of this, from my postcard collecting experience, there was a Leeds photograper who worked for a postcard company and left to start up on his own. He shrewdly retained the copyright to all the photographs he had taken and started to sell his photographs under his own name, while the company continued to sell the same photographs acknowledging his copyright.

I think these days, especially with older photographs, that most claims to copyright aren't valid in law. Crown copyright usually is.
　
Please note that this is only my understanding of copyright.

[BALTICSUBS]

Thanks Bill & Steve, it is a murky area indeed. But really most book writers using photos do not make swags of Money. Sometimes like that E18 photo it is impossible to nail down the photographer, but the RNSM has copyright on it.

Anyway, here is the just released HMS E18 website
The E18 website is now up and running

hmse18.org

[peter schofield]

Denbigh Records Office hold the letters of H.E. Heaton can anyone shine any light on this gentleman please:

DD/PH/293 contains the following:

Hugh Edward Heaton to his parents, Col and Mrs Wilfred Heaton: news of
schooldays, holiday activities, naval training and wartime service
including service on submarines in Malta and the Dardanelles and a
meeting with Churchill, sporting activities, setting up home after his
marriage and plans for purchasing a fruit farm after his retirement from
the Navy, 1900-32 (260 items).

19 May 1927, New Gunboat Commander
Lt Cdr H E Heaton is leaving England tomorrow for China to take command of the Peterel the first of the four new gunboats for service on the Yangtse which are being reconstructed by Messrs Yarrow at Hong Kong after being shipped from England in sections. Lt Cdr. Heaton went to Osborne in September 1905 and was sub-lieutenant on an A-class submarine at Lamlash when war began. Later he commanded submarines in the Dover Patrol. After duty in the Naval Barracks at Portsmouth and in the training ship Impregnable at Devonport, he was executive officer of the destroyer Shark and of the flotilla-leader Campbell and during the last year he has been in the battleship Valiant.


16 Nov 1964 – Times Obituary
Commander Hugh Edward Eaton a Deputy Lieutenant of Flintshire and a magistrate collapsed and died on horseback while riding with the Flint and Denbigh Hunt at Cefn near St Asaph on Saturday at the age of 72. He was a Chairman of Flintshire County Council.

[dennis a feary]

Hello PETER, find here such details of Submarine Service of Heaton ;

HEATON Hugh E. LIEUT.
SEE C.O.Q.C.
FROM ... `C.28'.
IN COMMAND ... YES `C.28'.
APPOINTMENT ...
DATE OF JOINING ... 24. 3.18.
DATE OF LEAVING ... 20. 4.18.
APPOINTED ... ADAMANT `H.1'.
B.1. 28. 2.15. 1ST LT.
B.11. 31. 8.15. 1ST LT.
B.10. 1. 7.16. 1ST LT.
B.6. 1.11.16. IN COMMAND.
B.7. 1.11.16. IN COMMAND.
B.9. 1. 1.17. IN COMMAND.
B.11. 1. 1.17. IN COMMAND.
C.28. 1. 3.17. IN COMMAND.

Sadsac

[peter schofield]

Hugh Edward Heaton
Hugh Heaton joined the Royal Navy as a Cadet ?. He was promoted to Midshipman on ?. On 15th May 1911 he was appointed to the Armoured Cruiser HMS LANCASTER. In July 1912 he was appointed to the Battle Cruiser HMS LION and, on 6th Jun 1913 he was appointed to the Cruiser HMS BLACK PRINCE (1st Cruiser Squadron, Mediterranean Fleet). He was promoted to Sub Lieutenant on 15th Sep 1913. He joined Submarines on ? when he was appointed to HMS DOLPHIN ‘for Submarine Training’ and on 1st Jun 1914 he was appointed to the Submarine Depot Ship HMS PACTOLUS (at Lamlash) ‘for Submarine A10 as First Lieutenant’. He was next appointed to the Submarine Depot Ship HMS ARROGANT (4th Submarine Flotilla) at Dover ‘for Submarines’ on 4th Feb 1915 (Nominal List) and to HMS ARROGANT ‘for Submarine B1 as First Lieutenant’ to date 4th Feb 1915 (Nominal List). Submarine B1 was transferred to HMS DOLPHIN on 4th Apr 1915 (Nominal List). He was promoted to Lieutenant on 15th Jul 1915. He was then appointed to the Submarine Depot Ship HMS ADAMANT (Special Service Flotilla 1) at Mudros ‘for Submarine B11 as First Lieutenant’ on 31st Aug 1915 (Nominal List). Later, on 7th Oct 1915 (Nominal List) Submarine B11 was transferred to the Italian Submarine Depot Ship HMS MARCO POLO at Venice. He transferred to ‘Submarine B10 as First Lieutenant’ on 10th May 1916 (Nominal List) and then to ‘Submarine B8 as First Lieutenant’ on 1st Oct 1916 (Nominal List). The Mediterranean Flotilla ‘B’ Class Submarines were all ‘Paid Off’ at Malta in late 1916 and, on 1st Dec 1916 (Nominal List) Hugh Heaton was appointed to HMS EGMONT at Malta ‘for Submarines’. He returned home with an appointment to HMS DOLPHIN ‘for Submarines’ on 1st Feb 1917 (Nominal List). His first Command appointment followed on 1st Mar 1917 (Nominal List) when he was appointed to the Submarine Depot Ship HMS ARROGANT (4th Submarine Flotilla) at Dover ‘for Submarine C28 in Command’. This submarine was transferred to the Submarine Depot Ship HMS FORTH (attached to the 9th Submarine Flotilla) at Harwich on 1st May 1917 (Nominal List), to HMS DOLPHIN on 1st Jul 1917 (Nominal List) and then to HMS RESEARCH at Portland 1st Mar 1918 (Nominal List). Hugh Heaton was appointed to The Submarine Depot Ship HMS THAMES at Portland on 1st Apr 1918 ‘for the Periscope School’ and then to the Submarine Depot Ship HMS AMBROSE at Portsmouth ‘for Submarine H1 in Command’ on 1st May 1918 (Nominal List). In December 1918 he was serving in the Submarine Depot Ship HMS ADAMANT ‘for Command of Submarines’ to which he had been appointed on 29th Apr 1918. He was appointed to HMS DOLPHIN ‘for the Submarine School’ on 12th Aug 1919. He was appointed to HMS VICTORY (the Royal Naval Barracks) at Portsmouth on 1st Nov 1919. Hugh Heaton was appointed to the 1,075 ton Torpedo Boat Destroyer HMS SHARK (Commander Frederick A H Russell, Royal Navy) ‘as First Lieutenant’ on 10th Jan 1922. He was promoted to Lieutenant Commander on 15th Jul 1923 and was appointed to the 27,500 ton Battle Ship HMS WARSPITE (Captain G K Chetwoode, CB, CBE, Royal Navy) on 3rd Feb 1926. He was then sent to the Far East with an appointment to HMS TAMAR at Hong Kong ‘for Miscellaneous Services’ on 7th May 1927 and was then appointed to the 345 ton River Gunboat (China Station) ‘in Command’ to date 30th Nov 1927. In July 1929 he was listed without an appointment and, on 18th Dec 1929 he was appointed to the Flotilla Leader HMS MALCOLM (the Flag Ship of the Reserve Fleet) at the Nore to which he had been appointed ‘for Maintenance Reserve Destroyers’. On 18th Jun 1932 Hugh Heaton was listed without an appointment and he was transferred to the Retired List on DTBR. In the January 1935 Navy List he is noted as a Retired Lieutenant Commander. Hugh Heaton was promoted to Commander on the Retired List on ?. He was recalled for further service during WWII. He reverted to the Retired List post War and was still included in the Navy List of Retired Officers in 1957. No further information is currently available.

Supplied by Barrie Downer