View Full Version : Modern Navy
Hi Everyone.
Just about my first post since joining and things seem to be hotting up in the "None Poster" membership stakes.All good fun eh!
My post however concernes the modern "Navy" and as an endevour to promote rantings here follows my thoughts.
At the weekend I visited the type 42 Destroyer HMS Exeter at the London Boatshow.The atmosphere brought back fond memories of my time in the "pusser"in the mid 60's. However it was very disconcerting to see Supply and secretariat hands showing people around the bridge and explaining pure bull sh... Also the number of petit women in the ships company seemed to shake my visions of my own sea daddy who was a 10 ft tall, 20 stone scouser. And why has the fore and aft rig done away with the 5 or 7 creases in the trousers. Oh woe is me, tooooo much change. Never mind I am sure we are all PROUD of our brave lads and lasses in our armed forces and three cheers to the lot of them.
A happy 2008 to everyone.
tomsam
AlZictorini
13-01-2008, 11:09
What you say is true ship mate, it is a different Navy. One of the biggest things which is now very open in all of the armed services is Homosexuality. I was quite miffed to find that when I was on Lusty a few years ago, the WREN Badger (tall beautiful blond) was a Lesbian. Never mind, all the same, a good working crew and as all her peers were of the same age it was accepted (quite rightly), the banter being very funny. Only some of the old salty sea dogs found time to complain.
A Cheer from me also to our brave Lads & Lasses in all our services.
johnny07
09-02-2011, 17:35
The modern navy, where did it all go wrong? :(:(
Macadian
09-02-2011, 17:44
The modern navy, where did it all go wrong? :(:(
When we done away with steam ships perchance...or was that a coincidence...?:D:cool:
I couldn't give a date, but I expect health and safety and risk assessment have been contributory factors perhaps leading up to the disaster with the Iranian navy a couple of years ago, But, however disturbing for oldies it is to see Able Seaman Rosie and the rest of the jolly girlies (wo)manning our ships, we can remember the work their their grannies put in in small boats in 1944, and I was so impressed by that SBA (I know it's not the right word) girl decorated in Afghanistan not so long ago. I was so proud of her.
Nobby_N
Dave Hutson
09-02-2011, 18:09
Kate Nesbitt was her name Nobby and she earned her place in history, in our hearts and I think we are all immensely proud of that young lady and all her compadres, they joined the Navy and found themselves like the Naval Brigade of long ago, ashore, in a hostile environment which was alien to all their Naval training but again and again come up trumps.
Banter we may, Old Navy, Real Navy, New Navy, but when it comes down to it the generation of the time will deliver the goods, subject to the Powers that be allowing them to get on with it.
They need all our support when there is so much "Human Rights" "PC" and "Let's not upset the Minorities or Ethnics" being thrown at them.
Like it or not they have a job to do all same as we didn't like some of the things we had to do hoping that somewhere someone knew why we were doing it.
Dave H [Old Navy]
Teuchter
09-02-2011, 19:34
Very well put Dave - BZ
johnny07
10-02-2011, 19:08
Yes nice thoughts Dave, very loyal, but the hard truth is that modern Jack and Jill do not deliver the goods viz a viz Iranians, Pirates Astute, and it's all very hard to take.
Johnny I'd love you to come out to where my young lads and lassies are doing a good job for the country.
Then you can explain to them how rubbish you think they are. Maybe you can give them some tips.
Just drop me a pm be happy to send my BFPO address or wait till we are back in august:mad:
Dave Hutson
11-02-2011, 15:41
Yes nice thoughts Dave, very loyal, but the hard truth is that modern Jack and Jill do not deliver the goods viz a viz Iranians, Pirates Astute, and it's all very hard to take.
They are not just "nice thoughts". If you check my record I have been quite scathing on occasions towards the Modern Navy, their "leaders" and our "govt" but I also filled in my profile so people can see my pedigree when making comments. It might be an idea to fill in yours so we can see where you are coming from and basing your comments on.
We , and , I think I can speak for many on the Forum , went where we were sent , did what we were told within the constraints at that time , and like it or not hopefully got the job done.
The guys and gals out there today are doing just the same , except that they can't even break wind without someone from the media making a buck on it and all the PC , Human Rights Groups , Pacifists and Ethnic Hard Done Minorities , and Politicians tying one hand behind their backs.
Twas always thus - noone loves a Serviceman in Peacetime but when the kakky hits the fan everyone loves him.
If this offends anyone - tough.
Dave H
Well put, Dave
I agree with everything that you posted.
About the Iranian affair. We do not know the orders that were given to the unfortunate lads/Lasses. Opening/returning fire could have caused a much larger international incident which our Government might have wanted to avert.
If anyone knows what the rules of engagement were for this incident then let us know.
Our young servicemen are doing us proud as did our G/Fathers, Fathers and hopefully our generation did
Good luck to everyone of them.
Dave
Rob Hoole
11-02-2011, 16:39
If some people don't stow their mean-spirited and often ill-informed criticism of today's Jack and Jenny (although I think at least one poster is here just to wind people up), I am tempted to start a new thread titled 'Old Navy' and populate it with some of the noteworthy blunders committed during their (and my) time in the RN. I have hundreds to hand. However, I would do this with the utmost reluctance because I believe this website should be a place to celebrate our Service and its people, not find reasons to fault them in such a curmudgeonly fashion.
Adj. 1. curmudgeonly - brusque and surly and forbidding; "crusty remarks"; "a crusty old man"; "his curmudgeonly temper"; "gruff manner"; "a gruff reply"
"noteworthy blunders committed during their (and my) time in the RN. I have hundreds to hand"
Rob.
If my name is mentioned among them, I'll sue. (I thought I had covered up most of mine);)
Mitch Hinde
11-02-2011, 16:56
Hi
The only difference between them and us is the time gap. We did the best we could with what we had available and so do they. Good luck to them, they need and deserve it.
Mitch Hinde
Rob Hoole
11-02-2011, 17:10
"noteworthy blunders committed during their (and my) time in the RN. I have hundreds to hand"
Rob.
If my name is mentioned among them, I'll sue. (I thought I had covered up most of mine);)
Unlike days of yore, this is the age of the internet, CCTV, the CNN factor and the Freedom of Information Act; an age where no matter how remote the location, mobile phones with cameras ensure no mistake goes unnoticed or unpublicised in the media.
As for those who thought they'd got away with long-forgotten misdemeanours in the dim distant past, truth will out in the long run. Instant worldwide communication, FaceBook and Twitter link people with long memories and there is DNA identification to catch you out. ;)
johnny07
11-02-2011, 17:45
Johnny I'd love you to come out to where my young lads and lassies are doing a good job for the country.
Then you can explain to them how rubbish you think they are. Maybe you can give them some tips.
Just drop me a pm be happy to send my BFPO address or wait till we are back in august:mad:
Thats great news davep. I really am encouraged to know that some of our people are doing well. Nothing would give me greater pleasure than to see the fortunes of modern navy take an upturn. over these last few years we have been fed a diet of failure and for old men like me (ex CERA) who live and breathe the navy it's so upsetting. Hms Diamond is visiting Aberdeen so I'll go aboard and talk to the lads and hear what good work they have been doing. I might even start ordering the Navy News to get a more acurate overview. As for huge blunders, where do I start?.
johnny07
12-02-2011, 09:46
If some people don't stow their mean-spirited and often ill-informed criticism of today's Jack and Jenny (although I think at least one poster is here just to wind people up), I am tempted to start a new thread titled 'Old Navy' and populate it with some of the noteworthy blunders committed during their (and my) time in the RN. I have hundreds to hand. However, I would do this with the utmost reluctance because I believe this website should be a place to celebrate our Service and its people, not find reasons to fault them in such a curmudgeonly fashion.
I forgot to mention yesterday that another difference between the old and the young is that we had a proper education and dont require spelling lessons.
Dave Hutson
12-02-2011, 10:00
Change your bait cos' I don't think the fish are biting.
chris westwood
12-02-2011, 10:43
If some people don't stow their mean-spirited and often ill-informed criticism of today's Jack and Jenny (although I think at least one poster is here just to wind people up), I am tempted to start a new thread titled 'Old Navy' and populate it with some of the noteworthy blunders committed during their (and my) time in the RN. I have hundreds to hand. However, I would do this with the utmost reluctance because I believe this website should be a place to celebrate our Service and its people, not find reasons to fault them in such a curmudgeonly fashion.
here here
also I worked with a lot of ex service people from all services. As professionals and as human beings i found them to be no better or no worse than my colleagues who hadn't. For instance there was an ex serviceman who I wouldn't trust as far as I could throw, and who was a bully to his colleagues, another is a life long friend. Both served in the 60s and 70s
Polycell
12-02-2011, 10:43
I forgot to mention yesterday that another difference between the old and the young is that we had a proper education and dont require spelling lessons.
Define old, define young!
clevewyn
12-02-2011, 11:12
The old ways are gone lads and not likely to return, get used to it.
ceylon220
12-02-2011, 16:47
The old ways are gone lads and not likely to return, get used to it.
Wonder how the women of todays navy would have got on if they had been watchkeeping down in the boiler rooms of our navy Clevewyne---all the heat and doing bilge cleaning,opening superheater valves etc, no doubt the duty PO of the watch would do it for them being the gentlemen that they were in those days !!!!!!!!!!!!!!:rolleyes::D
Rob Hoole
12-02-2011, 17:36
Wonder how the women of todays navy would have got on if they had been watchkeeping down in the boiler rooms of our navy Clevewyne---all the heat and doing bilge cleaning,opening superheater valves etc, no doubt the duty PO of the watch would do it for them being the gentlemen that they were in those days !!!!!!!!!!!!!!:rolleyes::D
As there is ample evidence showing women operating and cleaning out blast furnaces, welding and riveting sheets of metal together and hauling heavy steel ingots around for up to 12 hours a day during WW II, I imagine they would have got on fairly well. But I doubt that's the answer you were looking for.
clevewyn
12-02-2011, 17:54
ceylon220 has a point though. we belong to an age where you gave your seat on the bus, opened doors for, offered to give a hand to if you saw a lady with a heavy case or whatever.
Today you could get a load of abuse for same what with equal rights and so on. I would find it difficult to change my ways after all this time.
On the London underground recently a young woman offered me her seat & though getting on a bit I am not incapacitated. There would appear to be no stereotyping.
chris westwood
12-02-2011, 19:02
ceylon220 has a point though. we belong to an age where you gave your seat on the bus, opened doors for, offered to give a hand to if you saw a lady with a heavy case or whatever.
Today you could get a load of abuse for same what with equal rights and so on. I would find it difficult to change my ways after all this time.
you should offer those civilities to anyone who was in difficulty
and your last sentence is nonsense
Macadian
12-02-2011, 20:08
I reckon the really old navy died with the demise of sail. My navy died with the demise of steam (when I left) and today we have the new, or 'modern navy'....
Simplistic? Of course, but it does introduce some interesting time lines relative to the changes in technology from an 'Engine Rm rating' perspective....
As to 'Jack'? well, he changed with it as he always has and always will.....
Such is progress...or should I say, time and tide waits for no man....not even 'Jack'...:cool:
Wellbran
12-02-2011, 21:43
My opinion is that the Navy has gone the way of all other aspects of society...ie make it too hard and no one will do it or complete it etc etc like education i look at my kids work and it is easier, no wrong description...more PC. I was looking at youtube clip on the mast manning ceremony by boy seamen at a royal tournament I think it was 1984 (approx) and it was a shadow of its former self so in less than 10yrs after Ganges it was not recogniseable. so that could be a guage of the pace of change from Ganges closing to now.
I also look at the very small policewomen going around now and wonder if they could cope in a violent situation while out on the beat...oh sorry yes they can call for backup now. But also I see many men who are police and wonder if they could hold their own in a situation, so its not just females its just our society. I am not anti female BTW but they have limitations in a physical situation e imagine you are unconcious and your ship is burning and sinking can your female colleague CARRY you to safety??...on the other hand if she was in trouble you would surely carry her out right? But then ships are never on fire now are they? I suppoes thats the theory anyway. OK how about a female fireman....oopps sorry fire FIGHTER.
ceylon220
13-02-2011, 10:20
As there is ample evidence showing women operating and cleaning out blast furnaces, welding and riveting sheets of metal together and hauling heavy steel ingots around for up to 12 hours a day during WW II, I imagine they would have got on fairly well. But I doubt that's the answer you were looking for.
Quite agree with you Rob,women did a great job in the last great war but from reports I keep getting from old shipmates and one or two of the young lads now serving in the RN from my area they say that in the ships that they served in the women are given the easier tasks to do than the men (ladies before gentlemen again) and they even say that when a woman is brought up in front of the table her punishment is less severe, that is why I said about a woman being on boiler room watch in my day 50s-early 70s would she have stood the heat or would the PO say "here you are love take my position under the draft fan and keep cool"-----we will never know!!!!!:D
One other thing Rob, I don`t think that I could have served in the Engine Room branch under the command of a woman officer and especially one who had just come from training, I don`t know how other ex RN members feel about this, would loved to hear their comments on the subject.;):D
johnny07
13-02-2011, 10:43
you should offer those civilities to anyone who was in difficulty
and your last sentence is nonsense
I don't know where you live but his last sentence is perfectly true for this area, If you opened a door for a woman up here she would beat you up.
I have no truck with women at sea, but I must admit I dont like a lot of the ways things are done eg. How ships are cleaned and the messdecks etc. Apparently the dockyard do most of the painting, the old buffers would turn in their graves. I visited the Birmingham a few years back in Hull. She was red with rust. When I asked why I was told it will get done when we get home. Same in one of the messdecks, I asked the same ! Was told the civvy cleaners give it a good clean when we get back. Thats the modern part of the navy I could live without. We did it all ourselves :)
johnny07
13-02-2011, 10:57
Ceylon, A woman couldnt connect a boiler, or blow soot or stand a hard watch on a carriers throttles, it would be physically impossible. They may get by in todays navy but they wouldn't survive the one I was in, not in the ERs and BRs anyway.
chris westwood
13-02-2011, 11:03
Ceylon, A woman couldnt connect a boiler, or blow soot or stand a hard watch on a carriers throttles, it would be phisically impossible. They may get by in todays navy but they would'nt survive the one I was in, not in the ERs and BRs anyway.
the same would be true for many if not most men. It's down to the individual and their aptitudes. Although would bet that that there are women who could do the job you describe, but that's irrelevant for the reason you give
johnny07
13-02-2011, 11:03
I have no truck with women at sea,but i must admit i dont like a lot of the ways things are done eg how ships are cleaned and the messdecks ets .Apparently the dockyard do most of the painting the old buffers would turn there graves.i visited the birmingham a few years back in hull she was red with rust when i asked why i was told it will get done when we get home.Same in one of the messdecks i asked the same !was told the civvy cleaners give it agood clean when we get back .that the modern part of the navy i could live without we did it all our selves :)
The highlight of a seamans life was going to Paula Tioman to paint ship. He took huge pride in his ships appearance. The banyans there were great as well.
ceylon220
13-02-2011, 16:06
Ceylon, A woman couldnt connect a boiler, or blow soot or stand a hard watch on a carriers throttles, it would be physically impossible. They may get by in todays navy but they wouldn't survive the one I was in, not in the ERs and BRs anyway.
My sentiments also Johnny,you had the fans blowing on you on most areas in the engine rooms of larger ships ,throttles,evaporators,etc but smaller ships such as frigates had the one fan in the boiler room and that position was always the LHs or the POs perks,the poor old stoker sometimes got a look in when the latter moved away,and the engine room 2 fans blew over the throttle positions again taken up by the ERA and the LH,--now we have done away with the Admirality 3 drum boilers and the engines are the ones we see in Concord may be a lass joining the RN as a member of the engineering branch is`nt such a hot spot area as it was in the days of steam and black smoke and oil ridden bilges---more like being on a working holiday cruise.:rolleyes: and along time away from home --3months-6months, hardly time to get to know your buddies!!!!!;):)
Rob Hoole
13-02-2011, 18:26
How I miss those days of standing under the blowers on the Engine Room plates and punching sprayers in the Boiler Room. If only we could return to that halcyon era of two-and-a half year foreign-going commissions and the pleasure of seeing your two-year old sprog for the first time when you got back to the UK. Then there was all that mindless chipping, painting and cleaning in all weathers just to keep the troops occupied in over-manned ships.
As for civvy street, there were the pleasures of six-day working weeks with a fortnight off per year, B&W TV, box brownie cameras with the prints ready for collection from Boots on Friday, having to use the phone box on the corner and not being able to afford a car, a good meal in a restaurant or a decent holiday abroad. We were perfectly happy with fish & chips in newspaper and a couple of pints of warm bitter at the weekend.
People have it far too easy these days. Time to turn the clock back, I say!
Now, how do I set the DVD recorder again? There's a programme about flogging I'm keen to watch. My wife knows but I'm not going to embarrass myself by asking her. Besides, she's busy shifting a wardrobe. :)
Wellbran
13-02-2011, 19:35
About females in times of war, we do not hear about those fantastic young females who were parachuted in and went undercover behind enemy lines, or worked thier butts off in the munitions factories, so it goes both ways, in my wifes country many females were spies in WW2 and had a lot of guts. also not to mention the Russian Army who had a lot of hard nuts...females.
This is worth a look here
ttp://www.cnac.org/emilscott/phillips01.htm
also as part of this same story I recommernd this book
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ghost-Soldiers-Hampton-Sides/dp/0349117888/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1297629120&sr=8-1
also as far as females go my sister in law was a tough nut she could lay out any bloke and she could open a bottle of beer with her teeth...really! sadly she died aged 39, and I loved her.
alanbenn
14-02-2011, 08:34
I have watched this thread with interest and obseved the different attitudes towards our 'Modern Navy'.
My Dad was a Gunnery Instructor during the 50's/60's and his time I know from what he said was different to those who served during the 2nd world war. His generation saw service in Korea and very proud he was of that.
My time was during the 70's and Dad took great delight in reminding me he spent longer on 'one wave' he served 14 years....me 8 years...so half a wave really.
When I invited him onboard Hms Fife in 1975 he was like a fish out of water, missile systems and the like were alien to him, he was not impressed with my Navy, yet that same Navy re-took the Falklands, there were probably mistakes made just as there were during WW2 and Korea, but non-the less they performed the way they were trained to do.
Having visited some of our modern ships I know it's not the same Navy I served in, but what does come across is that the men and women are just as proud as we were, are trained just as well as we were and I know that when the chips are down they would perform to the best of their abilities.
We now have the subject of females in the Navy and their contributions being called into question, are they capable? well like all walks of life just as capable as men, there was many a shipmate I recall who wouldn't be able to carry an injured colleague, because his physique wasn't sufficient.
I now work in the Ambulance service along-side female paramedics, can they lift a 18st man down stairs, perhaps not, but then can I?
Can they save your life? yes they can, equally as well as male paramedics.
Our Navy will always develope and change from what we know, the strength of character of those that serve will remain the same, it's in our heritage.
Regards
Alan
Dave Hutson
14-02-2011, 08:48
Reckon you have put it in nutshell there Alan. As I have said before - they will deliver provided the PC, Human Rights & Shortsighted Politicians let them get on with the job and the Media could also back off and stop reporting the bullet before it has left the barrel.
Dave H
Francis Stanley
14-02-2011, 10:22
The modern navy, where did it all go wrong? :(:(
Its when they let civilians join ;)
jainso31
14-02-2011, 10:51
As I am sure you are aware Francis- there is no answer to that!
jainso31
The highlight of a seamans life was going to Paula Tioman to paint ship. He took huge pride in his ships appearance. The banyans there were great as well.
Remember it well,especially shark patrol and hanging a few tins of brown ale over the side of the whaler while the lads had a dip.
NOW it seems they go there to go "Clubbing" as the pineapple farm has gone, full of skyscrapers it is. The good CHEAP DAYS they were.
Alanbenn,
I like how you put this referring to your father visiting the Fife {he was like a fish out of water, missile systems and the like were alien to him,}
The other year i was in pompey at "Meet the Navy "and as we were making our way back to the dockyard gate, my mate who i was with [ex stoker ]spotted H.m.s Campbeltown behind the Semaphorn Tower, so we slipped on board
When we went on board , we were taken into the ops room ,it was like been on board STAR SHIP ENTERPRISE,i had never seen so many computers in one compartment,i even managed to get a piccy taken of me sat at a display.:)on the ships i had been on ,there was a part of the ops room ,called G.D.R {gun direction room} thats gone by the board these day,s.
And my branch being {gunnery}all these different missile systems ,around the ship,plus the close range weapons ,was a diffrent world.
I left the andrew ,first being trained on "fly plane 5" ,ending up in the seacat console..1960,s/1970,s
Thou our MODERN NAVY , has shrink so much ,theres not that much left of it now :mad:
alanbenn
14-02-2011, 12:29
Cylla, thanks for the comments. I must admit it was a bit of an eye opener for my Dad, like your visit when Dad was in the ops room of the Fife he was agasp!
He was amazed that at the touch of a button we could track aircraft that could be potential targets, and an array of weapons at our disposal to destroy such targets. All this just over 12 years since he left the Navy he knew.....
When I returned to Pompey some years after my time I was shocked at ratings with no creases in their trousers, No more Radio Electrical.....all combined into weapons electrical etc. certainly different to my time but fascinating all the same.
Then when I asked the lad how come they didn't have 7 creases in their trousers he replied I'm not that old!!!! Well neither was I, but I felt as if I were.
I find it hard to come to terms with the demise of our Naval strength in numbers, but I do feel that whatever Navy we have it will always perform the way it has done in the past......long may it be so.
Regards
Alan
During the time i was in the Andrew , H.M.S SCYLLA was the affiliated ship to Aberdeen.We had many a good run ashore there,
Now it,s the the time for H.M.S DIAMOND.
http://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/Article.aspx/2133690?UserKey=
CYLLA
johnny07
14-02-2011, 18:20
Remember it well,especially shark patrol and hanging a few tins of brown ale over the side of the whaler while the lads had a dip.
NOW it seems they go there to go "Clubbing" as the pineapple farm has gone, full of skyscrapers it is. The good CHEAP DAYS they were.
Skyscrapers on Paula Tioman, Oh no. :(:(
RonHowell
14-02-2011, 22:39
Just watched HMS Manchester on Channel 5, a Bra hanging in the Messdeck, Bar-B-Q in pirate rig on the forcastle, skipper having beer bets with the bridge crew, yup the Navy has changed since the 50's and 60's.
Ron
Just watched HMS Manchester on Channel 5, a Bra hanging in the Messdeck, Bar-B-Q in pirate rig on the forcastle, skipper having beer bets with the bridge crew, yup the Navy has changed since the 50's and 60's.
Ron
Yes I saw that too: in context. The bra was hanging up to tdry because the ships laundry was shut down; the BBQ was a fun way of using up frozen food that would otherwise have been ditched due to the freezer problem; the 'skipper'* was betting he'd spot the target first - and he did.
*Since we are fond of semantics on this board (see the 'HMS' debate) Her Majesty's Ships are commanded by the Captain, whaterver his or her rank.
Fishing smacks have 'skippers'.;)
RonHowell
15-02-2011, 10:55
Whilst watching the programme I thought how much Naval lives have changed since the 50's/60's whilst doing the same job. The Navy have shaken off the shackles of pre-war disipline and the work place has become more friendly yet the disipline is still there with less of an emphisis on it. I like the way women have merged into life on a warship yet when it was first suggested it was shock horror from the old salts.
If you want my opinion the Navy changed when the last tot was supped, it became a profession, (Oh yes, don't they look sooooo young!!!!!)
Ron
Just watched HMS Manchester on Channel 5, a Bra hanging in the Messdeck, Bar-B-Q in pirate rig on the forcastle, skipper having beer bets with the bridge crew, yup the Navy has changed since the 50's and 60's.
Ron
compare my photo of electrical's messdeck cleared for Saturday morning Captain's rounds in the thread:
HMS Blackpool: 2nd RN Commission 1962-63
While getting ready for that we would be listening to 'Children's Choice' and singing along: There was I, digging this hole... and hop and skip, hop and skip, over the rickety rackety bridge..... like a bunch of silly sailors :)
John (Nobby_N)
astraltrader
15-02-2011, 13:55
The modern navy, where did it all go wrong? :(:(
I find it hard to believe that firstly you need to ask this question and that secondly you appear to be trying to answer it by unfavourably comparing todays serving men and women with those of a previous era.
"Where did it go wrong??" The Navy has been sold short over the past 40 years by politicians from both major parties who seem to have forgotten how essential it is to maintain a navy at least capable enough to protect our trade and various overseas commitments.
Of course the country can no longer afford to maintain one of the worlds most powerful navies but ask any Naval chief or defence pundit and they will all agree that we should at least have [and still should] make better use out of a never ending list of already paid for equipment planes and ships either scrapped prematurely or flogged off cheaply - again with plenty of life left in them [I could nearly fill a page with examples that once gone will never be replaced again]
It is clear the country is now in serious financial trouble. Huge cuts have to be made but it seems clear to me that we have gone way too far with the decimation of the navy which has been sadly undervalued again by politicians from all the major parties.
We cannot afford to keep cutting an already very depleted navy.
It is far more important to at least have a credible navy than it is wasting our time and money [and brave young lives] instead in Afghanistan and it is far more important than to replace Trident - which we will eventually do in around 5 years time....:(
Then I could start on how much it has really cost us to be a member of the EU.....
So Johnny 07 there is your answer - it all went wrong in the hands of incompetent politicians.
Mitch Hinde
15-02-2011, 14:03
I find it hard to believe that firstly you need to ask this question and that secondly you appear to be trying to answer it by unfavourably comparing todays serving men and women with those of a previous era.
"Where did it go wrong??" The Navy has been sold short over the past 40 years by politicians from both major parties who seem to have forgotten how essential it is to maintain a navy at least capable enough to protect our trade and various overseas commitments.
Of course the country can no longer afford to maintain one of the worlds most powerful navies but ask any Naval chief or defence pundit and they will all agree that we should at least have [and still should] make better use out of a never ending list of already paid for equipment planes and ships either scrapped prematurely or flogged off cheaply - again with plenty of life left in them [I could nearly fill a page with examples that once gone will never be replaced again]
It is clear the country is now in serious financial trouble. Huge cuts have to be made but it seems clear to me that we have gone way too far with the decimation of the navy which has been sadly undervalued again by politicians from all the major parties.
We cannot afford to keep cutting an already very depleted navy.
It is far more important to at least have a credible navy than it is wasting our time and money [and brave young lives] instead in Afghanistan and it is far more important than to replace Trident - which we will eventually do in around 5 years time....:(
Then I could start on how much it has really cost us to be a member of the EU.....
So Johnny 07 there is your answer - it all went wrong in the hands of incompetent politicians.
Hi Terry
Welcome back.
I couldn't agree more. The forefathers of the above incompetent politicians made the same mistakes following WWl and look what followed.
Mitch Hinde
chris westwood
15-02-2011, 14:22
I have watched this thread with interest and obseved the different attitudes towards our 'Modern Navy'.
My Dad was a Gunnery Instructor during the 50's/60's and his time I know from what he said was different to those who served during the 2nd world war. His generation saw service in Korea and very proud he was of that.
My time was during the 70's and Dad took great delight in reminding me he spent longer on 'one wave' he served 14 years....me 8 years...so half a wave really.
When I invited him onboard Hms Fife in 1975 he was like a fish out of water, missile systems and the like were alien to him, he was not impressed with my Navy, yet that same Navy re-took the Falklands, there were probably mistakes made just as there were during WW2 and Korea, but non-the less they performed the way they were trained to do.
Having visited some of our modern ships I know it's not the same Navy I served in, but what does come across is that the men and women are just as proud as we were, are trained just as well as we were and I know that when the chips are down they would perform to the best of their abilities.
We now have the subject of females in the Navy and their contributions being called into question, are they capable? well like all walks of life just as capable as men, there was many a shipmate I recall who wouldn't be able to carry an injured colleague, because his physique wasn't sufficient.
I now work in the Ambulance service along-side female paramedics, can they lift a 18st man down stairs, perhaps not, but then can I?
Can they save your life? yes they can, equally as well as male paramedics.
Our Navy will always develope and change from what we know, the strength of character of those that serve will remain the same, it's in our heritage.
Regards
Alan
easily the best post I have ever read on here
johnny07
15-02-2011, 16:24
I find it hard to believe that firstly you need to ask this question and that secondly you appear to be trying to answer it by unfavourably comparing todays serving men and women with those of a previous era.
"Where did it go wrong??" The Navy has been sold short over the past 40 years by politicians from both major parties who seem to have forgotten how essential it is to maintain a navy at least capable enough to protect our trade and various overseas commitments.
Of course the country can no longer afford to maintain one of the worlds most powerful navies but ask any Naval chief or defence pundit and they will all agree that we should at least have [and still should] make better use out of a never ending list of already paid for equipment planes and ships either scrapped prematurely or flogged off cheaply - again with plenty of life left in them [I could nearly fill a page with examples that once gone will never be replaced again]
It is clear the country is now in serious financial trouble. Huge cuts have to be made but it seems clear to me that we have gone way too far with the decimation of the navy which has been sadly undervalued again by politicians from all the major parties.
We cannot afford to keep cutting an already very depleted navy.
It is far more important to at least have a credible navy than it is wasting our time and money [and brave young lives] instead in Afghanistan and it is far more important than to replace Trident - which we will eventually do in around 5 years time....:(
Then I could start on how much it has really cost us to be a member of the EU.....
So Johnny 07 there is your answer - it all went wrong in the hands of incompetent politicians.
I only asked :D
buster185
15-02-2011, 18:21
Rob, your post # 36:
Now, how do I set the DVD recorder again? There's a programme about flogging I'm keen to watch. My wife knows but I'm not going to embarrass myself by asking her. Besides, she's busy shifting a wardrobe.
Just out of interest, is that the setting of the DVD or the flogging??
Regards
Buster
Rob Hoole
15-02-2011, 21:19
Rob, your post # 36:
Just out of interest, is that the setting of the DVD or the flogging??
Regards
Buster
The DVD. She's more interested in buying things than flogging them. :)
harry.gibbon
19-02-2011, 22:27
The highlight of a seamans life was going to Paula Tioman to paint ship. He took huge pride in his ships appearance. The banyans there were great as well.
Hey up John, I don't know if she (Paula) owned it, but do you mean Palau Tioman ??
Little h
INVINCIBLE
20-02-2011, 16:09
We went to Pulau Tioman often and it provided an excellent spot for banyans.
This picture was taken in April 1964 when there in Centaur with RFA Fort Dusquene in company.
johnny07
21-02-2011, 17:47
Hey up John, I don't know if she (Paula) owned it, but do you mean Palau Tioman ??
Little h
Yes that's what I ment, and you know where I ment. Someone told me they have skyscrapers there now, I did'nt want to know that. It's another place I want to keep in my minds eye.
johnny07
21-02-2011, 17:53
We went to Pulau Tioman often and it provided an excellent spot for banyans.
This picture was taken in April 1964 when there in Centaur with RFA Fort Dusquene in company.
Great photo, move on a couple of years and it would have been an identical photo with the Albion. Go back a couple of years and it would have been Bulwark. I know , I was there when it happened. :D
Mitch Hinde
21-02-2011, 17:55
Hi
Is the big rock with the ships names and crests on still there or has it been painted over or dynamited so as not to offend the tourists?
Mitch Hinde
harry.gibbon
21-02-2011, 21:46
Yes that's what I ment, and you know where I ment.
John please be assured that I had never heard of the Island, even though I was in Singers for just over 2 years. I have had to Google the location of the Island.
Little h
Did anyone see last nights programme on HMS Manchester in the Caribbean. I could not believe my eyes at the pathetic attempts to sink one small GRP boat. First they used the 4.5 inch gun, then small arms and then they resorted to axes. Finally they topped it up with water from fire hoses which resulted in it turning turtle, so they had to use handsaws to cut holes in the hull to let the air out so as it would finally sink. Two pounds of PE4 or Semtex would have taken this boat apart with no problem and saved an awful lot of red faces on behalf of the ships company. As one young rating said " Nelson would have been turning in his grave".
Rob Hoole
22-02-2011, 11:27
BZ to HMS Manchester's ship's company whose teamwork, as shown in last night's programme, prevented Ł20m worth of cocaine from hitting our streets. The GRP launch involved in a separate incident certainly provided a rare opportunity to fire at a realistic target but later events appeared to involve some 'hamming up' for the camera.
Did anyone see last nights programme on HMS Manchester in the Caribbean. I could not believe my eyes at the pathetic attempts to sink one small GRP boat. First they used the 4.5 inch gun, then small arms and then they resorted to axes. Finally they topped it up with water from fire hoses which resulted in it turning turtle, so they had to use handsaws to cut holes in the hull to let the air out so as it would finally sink. Two pounds of PE4 or Semtex would have taken this boat apart with no problem and saved an awful lot of red faces on behalf of the ships company. As one young rating said " Nelson would have been turning in his grave".
I must say it's a mystery how the RN has survived since some of the grumpy old g*ts on here left!! Let's see if I can make this clear:
It's. A. TV. Show. They. Edit. It. :)
ceylon220
22-02-2011, 19:34
Is this young whipper snapper calling us "grumpy old gits" Harry, Rob,Terry, not forgetting my self-:eek:--him being only a Killick -:mad:-put him in the brig,how dare he call us "grumpy" and especially "old" gits--let me tell you sir I prefer to be called a "SENIOR CITIZEN" -:rolleyes:--how dare he!!!!!!!!!!!!:D:cool:
ceylon220
22-02-2011, 19:53
By the way in response to Omanip(What sort of a name is that!!) the navy state is due to these Univercity educated ar-e holes who are running and bringing the country to its knees with its stupid cuts to our armed forces, most of these so called MPs are millionaires and don`t give a damn to what they are doing by creaming off the navy,army and airforce, I only hope that this country has not to go to war because where are they going to find weapons, and men to fight---the last war WW2 Britain was in a situation where there was high unemployment, it was from here we found the manpower to go to war and women took over the on the farms,factories,buses etc.
These are the "twits" who are building 2 carriers,one to go into "mothball"(laid up)as soon as it comes from the builders and the other to go to sea without aircraft and while they are doing this they are decommissioning perfectly good carriers selling them for scrap not forgetting ships to escort these carriers being laid up awaiting their fate at Portsmouth.:mad:
HERE ENDETH THE LESSON.:D
Mitch Hinde
22-02-2011, 23:07
Hi All
This is going to upset the green party and the tree/bunny huggers.
To my mind Nick Farage didn't go far enough on Question Time when calling for an end to aid to overseas countries that don't need it. He could also have called for an end to the spending of billions and billions of pounds on the building of huge tracts of totally useless wind farms that can never and will never produce anything like the amount of energy required without the continual backup of convential/nuclear power stations, always flashed up and ready to fill the gap created in the grid without the lights going out.
Then we might just have the cash to do something about providing our underfunded armed forces with the equipment they so drastically need.
Rant over.
Mitch Hinde
harry.gibbon
22-02-2011, 23:50
Is this young whipper snapper calling us "grumpy old gits" Harry, Rob,Terry, not forgetting my self-:eek:--him being only a Killick -:mad:-put him in the brig,how dare he call us "grumpy" and especially "old" gits--let me tell you sir I prefer to be called a "SENIOR CITIZEN" -:rolleyes:--how dare he!!!!!!!!!!!!:D:cool:
Dave220,
As one of ye named geezers, I am taking the opportunity of the right of reply. It is Trucial sorry, Crucial to State that, perhaps he meant to describe us as "grumpy old gents". He spent a bit of time in the sun you know.:cool::D
You may be aware that he joined the BRNC in 1971 and mooched around the Andrew till 82:) then, 'O-man':D he was oft to another navy Navy in 1984 and that possibly tainted his opinion of folks like us ... venerable folk who see and speak no ill of anyone or any thing.:D:D
Little h
In reply to Omanips retort about Grumpy Old Gits. I realise it's a TV programme and it's edited, but I stand by what I typed. It was a time consuming operation taking a number of hours to sink one very small craft. This could have been done in less than an hour with a demolition charge and would have saved a few red faces. My son is actually the Chief Chef on Manchester and I support our lads and lasses in the RN 100%. In fact I did 32 years before becoming part of the defence cuts and left in 95, but aged 59 I was asked to return and take up a training job as they were so short of experienced Seaman Specialists.
Agree totally with the Buffer (always best to agree with the Buffer, makes life much more peaceful) :D:D
As an ex-Gunnery rate, I cringed at those efforts to sink one small boat that wasn't even moving!
As a POGI I knew used to say, "Why should Britain tremble" :rolleyes:
I know it's only drill, and there is more to service life than drill, but I have just watched a Passing Out Parade in HMS Raleigh (24/09/2009) on Youtube. They were as good as anything we ever did 55 years ago.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBcAkdsgK14&feature=related
Well, I thought so.
Nobby_N
Wellbran
26-02-2011, 15:41
This is my home town sea cadets they have been winning drill stuff for many years and they always say the turn out inspection is always won by females...try as they might the boys cannot beat them...but here they are at drill
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keRph-yVOBQ
johnny07
26-02-2011, 18:40
I know it's only drill, and there is more to service life than drill, but I have just watched a Passing Out Parade in HMS Raleigh (24/09/2009) on Youtube. They were as good as anything we ever did 55 years ago.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBcAkdsgK14&feature=related
Well, I thought so.
Nobby_N
Nobby, Im really happy that you liked the parade, you must have been proud as one of you relatives was probably taking part. Now I'm going to spoil it by saying that I dont really care much about how they look when performing a drill, what we really want is that they take on Iranian gunboats and protect our people from pirates and generally do things the navy used to do. Who knows maybe those boys and girls at Raleigh are the ones that are going to do that.
I couldn't agree more Johnny. I felt sick when that happened with the Iranians, (and as I said about the video, it was only a drill). I couldn't imagine that ever happening in days gone by. What made it worse was the behaviour of our people after they were captured.
Would I have been any better? I don't know. I was never in that situation. I know I was scared when we were at action stations off Port Said in 1956. You try not to show it. All I knew was that my action station was the TS, and that is deep inside the ship (Bulwark) and how do we get out if the ship starts going down. Everyone was jumpy - there was an Egyptian E-boat in the middle of the fleet - starshells - it turned out to be the Manxman. That was followed by the Russian/Egyptian Mig fighter, which turned out to be a U.S. Sabre from one of the U.S.Carriers - it hadn't had its IFF switched on. When these things are happening you don't know it's a false alarm until it is seen to be just that.
Coming back to the Iranian business, they have things these days called 'rules of engagement' and they serve to tie our hands from making any immediate robust response. Have you been watching the HMS Manchester stuff? - I have on Youtube. Can you imagine Nelson or Cochrane having to get permission from the Dey of Algiers before they blow one of his corsairs/pirates out of the water? That is effectively what Manchester had to do when they eventually did find a fishing boat running drugs.
Its a strange old world we are living in and I think we have brought it on ourselves.
Nobby
Agreed Nobby...............as FC2 my Action Station was in the TS too, at the height of the Indonesian Confrontation, we used to enter and leave Singapore Naval Base at Defence Stations (or maybe full Action Stations, can't recall)....anyway, always used to reckon that had we hit a mine (the given reason), my chances of escaping lay between nil and very little.
On the plus side, it was a nice air-conditioned compartment, and sitting there twiddling the occasional knob and looking at radar instead of humping 4.5" shells around, highly compensated.
To MANCHESTER though, strikes me they can't lift a finger unless the US Coastguard permits it, and only then if the governing authorities from whence the drugs originate let them.........otherwise they are, for all their sophisticated armament, powerless politically.
So why are they there? I would have thought the US Coastguard on it's own had more ships than the entire RN these days and hardly needed ours. Political rather than practical I suppose, "show a presence" sort of thing.
I did think, with the fiasco over sinking one fibre-glass boat, that wind the clock back and a couple of Type 14's or Ton Class CMS's, couldn't have done any worse! At least a 40/60 would have HIT the thing!
Finally, back in 1965, I believe the oldest ship in commission with the RN was PLOVER, and even SHE was "only" 28 years old..........not surprised MANCHESTER broke down!
Agreed Nobby...............as FC2 my Action Station was in the TS too, at the height of the Indonesian Confrontation, we used to enter and leave Singapore Naval Base at Defence Stations (or maybe full Action Stations, can't recall)....anyway, always used to reckon that had we hit a mine (the given reason), my chances of escaping lay between nil and very little.
On the plus side, it was a nice air-conditioned compartment, and sitting there twiddling the occasional knob and looking at radar instead of humping 4.5" shells around, highly compensated.
To MANCHESTER though, strikes me they can't lift a finger unless the US Coastguard permits it, and only then if the governing authorities from whence the drugs originate let them.........otherwise they are, for all their sophisticated armament, powerless politically.
So why are they there? I would have thought the US Coastguard on it's own had more ships than the entire RN these days and hardly needed ours. Political rather than practical I suppose, "show a presence" sort of thing.
I did think, with the fiasco over sinking one fibre-glass boat, that wind the clock back and a couple of Type 14's or Ton Class CMS's, couldn't have done any worse! At least a 40/60 would have HIT the thing!
Finally, back in 1965, I believe the oldest ship in commission with the RN was PLOVER, and even SHE was "only" 28 years old..........not surprised MANCHESTER broke down!
Hi Scur,
Without getting drawn in,i too saw the series and agree with you.I never laughed so much at trying to sink that thing,especially filling it with water,ha ha!!a small amount of plastic would have done the job without any trouble.
Did the US Coast Guard say they could do it?
Wellbran
27-02-2011, 12:28
Nobby, I agree about the Iranian so called POW's, what made me burning mad was they sold their stories to the tabliods (when they did not have any story to tell) when my Father's story was just ignored by most after WW2 He once wrote his WW2 story to the Readers digest as they had asked him, He was haunted and quite ill writing his accounts down on paper only for the Readers digest to decline from printing it (probably too horrible for print) He went out into the garden and burnt his own copy of it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hF-Tast2Ua8
johnny07
27-02-2011, 21:20
Nobby, I agree about the Iranian so called POW's, what made me burning mad was they sold their stories to the tabliods (when they did not have any story to tell) when my Father's story was just ignored by most after WW2 He once wrote his WW2 story to the Readers digest as they had asked him, He was haunted and quite ill writing his accounts down on paper only for the Readers digest to decline from printing it (probably too horrible for print) He went out into the garden and burnt his own copy of it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hF-Tast2Ua8
Wellbran, you have just hit a nerve with me. I have never got over that day the navy surrendered to a few Iranians. For me that was the watershed of the navy as we know it. The RN has become an embarrassment and a source of humiliation to our country. In other threads people have said " what about Kate Nesbit, well I can tell you that when the history books are opened it will be Turney and Batchelor who will be remembered. Kates exploits will fade into the mist of time. How do I know this?. If I were to ask you what sailor won the MM before Kate You wouldnt know would you.
mandrake079
28-02-2011, 00:00
...If I were to ask you what sailor won the MM before Kate You wouldnt know would you.
Was it by any chance AB Milburn of Drake Bn, Royal Naval Division?
INVINCIBLE
28-02-2011, 10:16
[QUOTE=Scurs;154031]Agreed Nobby...............as FC2 my Action Station was in the TS too, at the height of the Indonesian Confrontation, we used to enter and leave Singapore Naval Base at Defence Stations (or maybe full Action Stations, can't recall)....anyway, always used to reckon that had we hit a mine (the given reason), my chances of escaping lay between nil and very little.
On the plus side, it was a nice air-conditioned compartment, and sitting there twiddling the occasional knob and looking at radar instead of humping 4.5" shells around, highly compensated.
Scurs,
Your experiences most interesting. There seems to be so little in print about the full story of what happened during the Indonesian Confrontation, apart from the Limbang action and the passage of the Lombok Strait.
I was there in Centaur in 1964, but we were never told much about what was going on.What ship were you in? what dates? what patrols did you conduct? did you see any action against Indonesian insurgents? Do hope you can give us a bit more on that distant confrontation.
I can't speak for Scurs, and Blackpool (at least the commission I was in) was not there long enough for people to get the GSM with clasp. It had to be 30 days in Malaysian/Indonesian waters. I'm sure we were not off Suez for 30 days in Bulwark and we got the GSM for that. Anyway, that is not the point: Invincible asks about material in print. There is a book by Nick van der Bijl titled Confrontation: The War with Indonesia 1962-1966 (Pen & Sword, 2007). It is written predominantly from an army point of view, but there are index entries for Royal Navy, Royal Australian Navy and Royal New Zealand Navy and the Royal Malaysian Navy. The sub headings are: ADIZ policing, Far East Fleet, guardships, intelligence gathering, 6th Minesweeper Squadron, Naval Party Kilo, naval task force challenges 12 mile limit, Tawau Assault Group, and transporting of troops, and numerous ships are listed by name from the three navies. Some of the entries are brief, amounting to no more than a mention on one page, but the context tells you why they are there. And those sub-headings may stir some memories. Centaur is mentioned but only to say she was there.
I plead an interest because I made the index for that book.
Cheers - Nobby_N
Buttons on my sleeves now I see. Now I won't be able to wipe my nose :)
Nobby_N
Dave Hutson
28-02-2011, 11:00
Buttons on my sleeves now I see. Now I won't be able to wipe my nose :)
Nobby_N
Put your shades on standby now ready for the gold braid.
I didn't get a clasp for Borneo either and I was chasing the Grey Ghost [Albion] of the Borneo Coast up and down the coast on an RFA loaded with Ammo.
Invincible/Nobby - Well as we didn't qualify for GSM, "only" managing 28 days and not the requisite 30, maybe "height of Indonesian Confrontation" is stretching things a bit! :D
However, out there we were, patrols we did, even if maybe June 1965 - until it ended (June-July 1966?), more "tail end" than "height".
The 1st commission (1963-65) probably qualified for medal, we 2nd commission didn't! :(
Ship? Oh.......Leander Class Frigate, HMS AJAX, Leader 24th Escort Group.
INVINCIBLE
28-02-2011, 15:06
I didn't get a clasp for Borneo either and I was chasing the Grey Ghost [Albion] of the Borneo Coast up and down the coast on an RFA loaded with Ammo.[/QUOTE]
Dave,
Why ever did you not qualify for the Borneo GSM? My 'oppo' in the 'Old Grey Ghost' got one, NPs and RFA personnel qualified for the GSM. Which RFA were you in? Fort Charlotte, Gold Ranger, Eddyrock, Wave Sovereign and Tidereach all spent a long time there. In Centaur we were faithfully supported by Fort Dusquene throughout.
Dave Hutson
28-02-2011, 15:13
Fort Rosalie - was told she didn't spend long enough.
Dave H
INVINCIBLE
28-02-2011, 16:53
Fort Rosalie - was told she didn't spend long enough.
Dave H
Dave,
That is a shame because Fort Rosalie is listed along with eleven other RFAs under the details of those which were deployed to Indonesia during the Confrontation as set out in 'The Fourth Force - untold story of the RFA since 1945' by Geoff Puddefoot.
Wellbran
01-03-2011, 15:00
Johnny07 I think no one should remember any of those people in history, and not least the ranks in charge of that days operation. And you are right the Navy is a shadow of itself. and according to Ex Naval here on the forum that is a good thing, but then you get incidents like that one which throw the "modern" Navy concept into doubt. BTW I am not trying to start a "flame up" here. EG the guy Bachelor was mad as the iranians took his ipod away! oh dear oh dear!
Allan SINCLAIR
01-03-2011, 19:52
I have been watching the series about HMS Manchester and, quite honestly, the whole thing is embarrasing. There is a Leading Hand with a very limited vocabulary and a sort of Able Seaperson who is equally 'dippy'. Even the officers no longer seem to be 'gentlemen'.
'It is upon the Navy, under the good Providence of God that the Wealth, Safety and Strength of the Kingdom do chiefly depend'. (Articles of War, 3rd version, 1661.)
Allan - about Manchester, those are my observations too. I think it probably does, just about, give the feel of what the RN is like these days, although as has been said, it is television, and what TV always wants to do is turn it into a soap opera. Is it good TV? that is all they ask.
It is interesting that no senior rates appear. I wonder if they declined the opportunity. The Leading Hand and the AB have grown up on a diet of 'Big Brother' and that is how they are presented. The media are quite cynical about how they present things. Years ago in the first Ark Royal TV series (I didn't see any of it) there were newspaper accounts of crew coming off shore and vomiting as they came over the brow. Many of us have done something like that in our naval careers but, did we want our mums to know all about it? I expect there have been a few red faces on the Manchester as a result of this latest TV series, but I expect 'their Lordships' (but we don't have Lords of the Admiralty anymore do we?) thought it would be a good recruiting wheeze and who knows maybe they were right - there is always a queue of people wanting to be on 'Big Brother'.
Much of what we see and read about is depressing to us, but there is a lot that we don't see, and still there are heroes popping up from among the ordinary squaddies and bootnecks and yes, shoregoing SBAs. There is no reason to think that todays matelots and matelot-esses are any different. Some will be good and others pretty awful. It is a different navy, that's for sure. I think there are shortcomings, particularly in attitudes, in comparison to earlier times, but don't blame the boys and girls at the bottom, blame the decision makers in the MOD and in Parliament. Jan Steer has said the navy started going to pot when they let civvies in. Hidden in that statement there is the truth that it is civvy attitudes to service matters that have caused much of the trouble we think we see.
As my old two-badge EM oppo Parky used to say about civilians in positions of authority: "They don't know, They just don't know!" Somehow we knew what he meant. He was saying that in 1956 by the way.
Nobby_N
Oh for the return of Ganges training and discipline ! ! !
Edna
Derek Dicker
02-03-2011, 10:11
Oh for the return of Ganges training and discipline ! ! !
Edna
Mng Edna, much as I admire your sentiment, I fear it would not be politically correct. Something to do with abuse (called discipline) in my day.
Derek (bunts) number 4 recruitment May 7th 1957. Anson Div class 301, 22 mess
For Edna May - Bring back Ganges??
compare and contrast:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htmC__eg8hc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxfjJBJM6SE
I sent the first of those links to my sons who are in their early 30s, just to give them some idea of what their father did - this is what I wrote:
When I joined it was into the electrical branch and I was given a Railway Warrant from London to Fareham. I travelled with a lad who had already done boy’s training in Ganges, but I was nominally in charge of him because I was older. I was a month or 6 weeks off my 18th birthday. In Collingwood we did all the stuff you saw except for the stuff in boats. We climbed a similar mast to them at HMS St Vincent in Gosport. Like in Ganges, everyone had to go past the first platform but not to the very top, going further was voluntary – we didn’t do the ‘Button boy’ thing. We were expected to go up the rigging in just the same way that Patrick O’Brian describes in his Aubrey/Maturin books – you did not go through the lubbers hole on the way up though you could go through it on the way down.. That was it – just the once for us ‘electrical’ ratings. Being electrical and radio we did not do the seamanship training, but the drill was just as tough. And our petty-officers GIs (GI = Gunnery Instructor) were just as tough – funnily enough – we did not think of them as being sadistic. They were toughening us up and instilling instant obedience – that was their job. They shouted at us and our GI had a baton which he would poke in your side if you were slow in learning the drill.
Nobby_N
buster185
02-03-2011, 13:03
Wow, I like the second clip but in my day you got DQ's and chucked out for fraternisation in the same bed!! Things have obviously progressed!!
Regards
Buster
I like how all that makes you come to be a sailor,....the next course, how to become a diplomat for your country ...of what we were told, even before you went up the brow of a ship.
Unfortunately some of us fell over, and ended up in front of the "jimmys table ":o first night ashore
cylla
Derek (Bunts) - agreed.!
No.1 Recruitment, 7th January 1957, 124 Class, Blake 7 Mess. :)
Cylla...........well SOME of us I suppose act like Big OD's and "perform" !
Hi Scurs, i am relating to,when a plane load of J/S and O/D,s joined our first ship in the far flung .....:D
cylla
Allan SINCLAIR
02-03-2011, 15:14
Hello Nobby N
Re: Lack of knowledge by civilians, I think most ex-Servicemen hold them in contempt - usually justifiably.
As for coming off shore and 'mustering one's kit' at the gangway - well, that was a guaranteed stay in the cells on big ships and an empty compartment on a small ship where your mess mates would have to look after you to make sure that you didn't die in your own vomit. If you remember, a good shore going oppo would help you back on board - it was loner's who usually got into trouble.
I was also a Greenie and went to Collingwood (Collingrad as my 'old ships' Polycell calls it) in 1958 and we still did boat bits and bobs and marrying falls and suchlike. Although the POGI's didn'tstand any messing around we were never ever struck or bullied in any way.
Dave Hutson
02-03-2011, 15:15
Derek (Bunts) - agreed.!
No.1 Recruitment, 7th January 1957, 124 Class, Blake 7 Mess. :)
Cylla...........well SOME of us I suppose act like Big OD's and "perform" !
I'm with Derek and Scurs on this one.;) [What one are we talking about:confused:]
17th March 1953, 243 Class, Blake 8 Mess
Dave H
Polycell
02-03-2011, 17:48
Oh how easy it is to say 'it wasn't like that in our day'
Come on you lot lighten up!
Each generation is compared with scorn by the previous generation.
Come on time like progression moves on, accept it.
OK so todays sailor seems lacking in discipline but they are still out there doing a bloody good job. I know that if ever they are put into a war situation they'll do their best to uphold the tradition of the Navy.
Having gone Ganges or Vincent didn't necessarily make you a better person belive me Edna!!!!
johnny07
02-03-2011, 18:21
[QUOTE=Scurs;154031]Agreed Nobby...............as FC2 my Action Station was in the TS too, at the height of the Indonesian Confrontation, we used to enter and leave Singapore Naval Base at Defence Stations (or maybe full Action Stations, can't recall)....anyway, always used to reckon that had we hit a mine (the given reason), my chances of escaping lay between nil and very little.
On the plus side, it was a nice air-conditioned compartment, and sitting there twiddling the occasional knob and looking at radar instead of humping 4.5" shells around, highly compensated.
Scurs,
Your experiences most interesting. There seems to be so little in print about the full story of what happened during the Indonesian Confrontation, apart from the Limbang action and the passage of the Lombok Strait.
I was there in Centaur in 1964, but we were never told much about what was going on.What ship were you in? what dates? what patrols did you conduct? did you see any action against Indonesian insurgents? Do hope you can give us a bit more on that distant confrontation.
Regarding action stations in Borneo, in Albion in 1966 the only people we had to protect ourselves against were the Scots Guards. When we brought them out of the jungle they went berserk, they smashed the place up even the chapel. In complete contrast when we brought the Gordon Highlanders out they were filthy and shattered but after about twenty minutes they were dressed in their white highland dress wearing their kilts and performing highland dancing on the flight deck. The ghurkers(spell check) were great as well they had their own sort of rum and we used to swop ( in the POs mess ).
harry.gibbon
02-03-2011, 22:36
Having gone Ganges or Vincent didn't necessarily make you a better person belive me Edna!!!!
Fred; my understanding of this sentence, in the form in which it is put, means that anyone having done the Ganges or St. Vincent course ... ended up no better than when they joined! Is that what you meant please?:confused:
Little h
harry.gibbon
02-03-2011, 22:43
[QUOTE=INVINCIBLE;154302]
Regarding action stations in Borneo, in Albion in 1966 the only people we had to protect ourselves against were the Scots Guards. When we brought them out of the jungle they went berserk, they smashed the place up even the chapel. In complete contrast when we brought the Gordon Highlanders out they were filthy and shattered but after about twenty minutes they were dressed in their white highland dress wearing their kilts and performing highland dancing on the flight deck. The ghurkers(spell check) were great as well they had their own sort of rum and we used to swop ( in the POs mess ).
I would have expected nothing less from my former regiment (whilst a cadet in ACF) and that of my uncles who served in Gordons in WWII.
Re; Indonesian Confrontation:-
I think this conflict is deserving of a thread of it's own, reflecting/recounting the activities of members of the RN/RM. If it is originated then we can ask the Mod's to move relevant posts from this thread to that!
Little h
Polycell
03-03-2011, 07:42
Fred; my understanding of this sentence, in the form in which it is put, means that anyone having done the Ganges or St. Vincent course ... ended up no better than when they joined! Is that what you meant please?:confused:
Little hIf yer like!!
chris westwood
03-03-2011, 09:59
Oh how easy it is to say 'it wasn't like that in our day'
Come on you lot lighten up!
Each generation is compared with scorn by the previous generation.
Come on time like progression moves on, accept it.
OK so todays sailor seems lacking in discipline but they are still out there doing a bloody good job. I know that if ever they are put into a war situation they'll do their best to uphold the tradition of the Navy.
Having gone Ganges or Vincent didn't necessarily make you a better person belive me Edna!!!!
here here
these people are seeing combat, earning gallantry medals and coming home in body bags or with limbs and organs missing. I doubt whether the people who were rescued at benghazi last week will have many complaints
I think these people need praise for what they do and the way they do it. Frankly I couldn't care less whether they are good or not at marching up and down, polishing brass, or painting the side of a ship. has it occured to some people on here that modern ship's crews might have better things to do?
People who have been in the navy are ordinary people. being in the navy at whatever time does not make you better than other people.
johnny07
03-03-2011, 13:27
[QUOTE=johnny07;154652]
I would have expected nothing less from my former regiment (whilst a cadet in ACF) and that of my uncles who served in Gordons in WWII.
Re; Indonesian Confrontation:-
I think this conflict is deserving of a thread of it's own, reflecting/recounting the activities of members of the RN/RM. If it is originated then we can ask the Mod's to move relevant posts from this thread to that!
Little h
The thing about the Confrontation is that no one at home knew about it. It was'nt like the Falklands, on TV everyday. It was passed off as a misunderstanding between Indonesia and us over the future of Malasia. However there was a huge British committment there, dozens of ships, hundreds of commandos and soldiers, RAF planes and helicopters. Anyone serving in Albion or Bulwark at that time will have come into contact with most of the premier regiments of the army who did their three month jungle patrol. It was the only exciting time that punctuated my otherwise uneventful time in the navy and certainly worth a thread.
Sorry, have been out of action for a few days.
Nobby_N - what I expected from Ganges and St. Vincent and other training units was respect - respect for your equipment (so you took care of it), respect for your mates (so you kept an eye out in case they were in need), respect for your work tasks, respect for your service .....and so on.
It starts at school; I am concerned about the fact that in my limited experience (and from the TV story) children no longer respect their teachers or their parents, and teachers do not try to earn that respect.
By the time these children reach employment age, there is little respect for anything or anyone, and I am therefore outstandingly encouraged when I hear about young people who are working to aid chidren in the third world.
Sorry to be off target, but I am sure these things are linked.
Edna
Cornwall sailors in Dubai
03 March 2011
F99 is taking a two-week break from keeping pirates under the knout with some much-needed TLC for the ship and some much-needed down time for the ship’s company.
Before leave could begin in earnest there were a few tasks to complete:
connect up the water and electricity supplies
sort out 150 sacks of mail
get rid of one month’s worth of gash (which must have been a fun job in the heat...)
store four lorry-loads of food waiting for the ship
pass the fitness test (for those needing to stay ‘in date’)
maintenance on that radar
I can never remember doing a fitness test in my days ,the food must be very fattening ,or they do less physical work than we did ,in our day.
And the AFT end of the ship ,must smell like a slum [a months worth of gash ]:eek:
cylla
fitness tests
I suppose they are a good thing. No we never did anything like it in my time, after basic training that is. I think we would have thought it an insult. We did a fair bit of up and down ladders, and in my trade (REM), the mast, and again in my trade, humping PPIs (about 120lb) and other equipment up and down ladders, and that in tropical heat too and without help. We must have been pretty fit. I never needed medical treatment, apart from for accidents(!), and never once saw a dentist until I was on my discharge routines, and he said all was ok.
There were some overweight sailors, I have to say. There was a chef in Bulwark ('55-'56), and a butcher (a marine). Both were large in height and in girth. They would both stand in their doorways on either side of the passage between the galley and the meat store, and any young ODs passing through had to run the gauntlet of these two. The chef would bash you with his belly and you'd bounce off him onto the butcher, and he would bash you back like a ball in a pin-ball machine. It was their idea of fun.
A month's worth of gash.
In the (bad) old days of course it just went down the chute (tinkle tinkle little spoon...). I guess that would not be considered
environmentally responsible nowadays.
Nobby_N
Polycell
05-03-2011, 18:26
Sorry, have been out of action for a few days.
Nobby_N - what I expected from Ganges and St. Vincent and other training units was respect - respect for your equipment (so you took care of it), respect for your mates (so you kept an eye out in case they were in need), respect for your work tasks, respect for your service .....and so on.
It starts at school; I am concerned about the fact that in my limited experience (and from the TV story) children no longer respect their teachers or their parents, and teachers do not try to earn that respect.
By the time these children reach employment age, there is little respect for anything or anyone, and I am therefore outstandingly encouraged when I hear about young people who are working to aid chidren in the third world.
Sorry to be off target, but I am sure these things are linked.
EdnaSorry, disagree, it starts at home. Children should be taught to respect by their parents. Teachers aren't allowed to discipline their charges anymore gone are the days when a thrown board rubber at a micreant in a classroom solves the problem.
I think you'll find that there are more good youngsters than bad. The trouble is good is bad press no one is interested hence the media is only interested in spreading bad news.
Back on thread deviation over.
chris westwood
05-03-2011, 21:03
Cornwall sailors in Dubai
03 March 2011
F99 is taking a two-week break from keeping pirates under the knout with some much-needed TLC for the ship and some much-needed down time for the ship’s company.
Before leave could begin in earnest there were a few tasks to complete:
connect up the water and electricity supplies
sort out 150 sacks of mail
get rid of one month’s worth of gash (which must have been a fun job in the heat...)
store four lorry-loads of food waiting for the ship
pass the fitness test (for those needing to stay ‘in date’)
maintenance on that radar
I can never remember doing a fitness test in my days ,the food must be very fattening ,or they do less physical work than we did ,in our day.
And the AFT end of the ship ,must smell like a slum [a months worth of gash ]:eek:
cylla
maybe they are more conscious of these things nowadays-good
the people on these ships ansd in the defence serevices in general seem to be doing pretty well. Good for them.
chris westwood
05-03-2011, 21:05
Sorry, disagree, it starts at home. Children should be taught to respect by their parents. Teachers aren't allowed to discipline their charges anymore gone are the days when a thrown board rubber at a micreant in a classroom solves the problem.
.
and a good thing too.
teachers do a great job, children do have respect, and they grow into the fine young adults that this country should be proud of but far too often prefer to criticise
John O'Callaghan
05-03-2011, 21:39
GASH? GASH? GASH? These modern days Mateloets have it too easy! IN MY DAY WE DIDN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO THROW AWAY! (Sinks back into couch whilst sipping on beer can.)
Cheers John O'C.
johnny07
08-03-2011, 18:00
Cornwall sailors in Dubai
03 March 2011
F99 is taking a two-week break from keeping pirates under the knout with some much-needed TLC for the ship and some much-needed down time for the ship’s company.
Before leave could begin in earnest there were a few tasks to complete:
connect up the water and electricity supplies
sort out 150 sacks of mail
get rid of one month’s worth of gash (which must have been a fun job in the heat...)
store four lorry-loads of food waiting for the ship
pass the fitness test (for those needing to stay ‘in date’)
maintenance on that radar
I can never remember doing a fitness test in my days ,the food must be very fattening ,or they do less physical work than we did ,in our day.
And the AFT end of the ship ,must smell like a slum [a months worth of gash ]:eek:
cylla
Don't they have gash chutes these days?. The most miserable part of ship in my day was gash chute sentry. Thinking about it that was probably done by men under pun. and was'nt a part of ship.
buster185
09-03-2011, 08:51
Hey up johnny, not sure what the RN policy is on 'gash' but Maersk have a policy (and many more ships than the RN!) which makes interesting reading. Looks like no more 'gash shute sentry' for men under punishment but you might find yourself in charge of a 'three-phase biological sewage treatment system' and just hope not too many blow-backs up the chute in a following sea!!
Regards
Buster
http://www.maersk.com/Sustainability/EnvironmentAndClimate/Pages/ShipRecyclingAndWasteHandling.aspx
No more Admiral Brown then!!
Nobby_N
buster185
09-03-2011, 11:59
Looks like he's taken his last salute!!
Buster
harry.gibbon
27-12-2011, 13:56
The modern navy in action, ashore!
Able Seaman Michelle Ping, Royal Naval Reservist (photo below)
Seems many of those who would not like to have served alongside women at sea, are not like the highlander who served alonside this medic reservist in Afghanistan. He owes his life to her!!!
Following Article in the Sheffield Telegraph, on line.
--------------------
Taliban fired on me as I saved a life, reveals Sheffield heroine Michelle
Published on Tuesday 20 December 2011 08:57
HERO Sheffield paramedic Michelle Ping has told how she dramatically saved the life of a wounded soldier under fire from the Taliban while on duty as a reservist in Afghanistan.
The brave 37-year-old, from Dungworth, had to go alone on to a rooftop to make the rescue as bullets tore through the air.
She refused to give up on the injured Highlander after he was shot in the head and his colleagues had left him believing he was dead - and he is now recovering from his ordeal.
Former Sheffield schoolgirl Michelle, a member of the Royal Navy reserves, was stationed with the Fourth Battalion Royal Regiment of Scotland - the Highlanders - as part of her tour of duty in Helmand Province, when the incident happened.
She said: “While in Helmand, I would go on patrol with the boys and we were on an operation in an area where we hadn’t been before.
We landed on the helicopters at dawn, it was like something out of the computer game, Call of Duty.
“All day long while we were there, British platoons were being shot at. In the afternoon, we went into a compound to resupply with ammunition and we then got smashed by Taliban fire for a few hours.
“Some of the boys were on the roof and one - Highlander Craig Paterson - got shot in the head.
“The other guys up there evacuated to safety and thought he was dead. I went up on the roof and all the Taliban who had been shooting at the boys turned their attentions on me. Someone had taken Craig’s helmet off and he was lying with his eyes open not moving. I thought ‘I’m not going to let you die’. I shook him and he came round.”
Michelle said that due to the trauma 22-year-old Craig had received he did not know what was happening and wanted to sit up.
She recalled: “I had to lie on top of him to stop him. Some of the boys came up and gave me a hand, and we pushed him off the rooftop into the arms of two other boys below, then we had to run with him for half a mile to a secure helicopter site so he could be evacuated.
Craig was flown to Kandahar and then back to the UK for treatment. He is now at the MOD’s Headley Court rehabilitation centre in Surrey, where Michelle said his recovery is going well. She said: “He is having to have a metal plate in his skull and because he was hit on the left-hand side of his head, he has some impairment on the right hand side of his body but he has all his faculties.
“He just can’t remember the incident.”
Craig was due to accompany Michelle to The Sun’s Military Awards 2011 - an event being attended by celebrities and royals including Prince William and Harry - where her bravery saving his life has led to her being on a shortlist of three for Reservist of the Year. She and other nominees were also invited to 10 Downing Street for a reception.
Michelle, an Able Seaman and former pupil at the old Earl Marshal School in Fir Vale, Sheffield, said: “I was just doing my job - I’m so excited to have been nominated for the awards.”
Proud dad Graham Ping, of Grimesthorpe, said: “When Michelle was deployed this last time, she just said she was going abroad - we only found out it was Afghanistan just before she went. I said she wanted her head examining - but I am so proud of her.”
---------------
from:-
http://www.sheffieldtelegraph.co.uk/news/local/taliban_fired_on_me_as_i_saved_a_life_reveals_shef field_heroine_michelle_1_4075444
.................................
now read how the:-
Royal Navy personnel train for Afghanistan
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/TrainingAndAdventure/RoyalNavyPersonnelTrainForAfghanistan.htm
(I think I may have posted the second link elsewhere in the forum)
Little h
Teuchter
27-12-2011, 14:45
Very interesting Harry - thank you and a big BZ to Michelle and all her colleagues
harry.gibbon
27-12-2011, 14:57
Very interesting Harry - thank you and a big BZ to Michelle and all her colleagues
and with the man she saved - click on pic (ping2) on right:-
http://www.abilityhandlingltd.co.uk/news/2011/december/michelle-ping-recieves-award.html
Little h
Teuchter
27-12-2011, 17:14
Aye Harry - thanks again - great photos!!
I see she wears the badge of a naval air mechanic 1st class as well as three good conduct badges so she served a fair bit of time in the regular navy as a Fleet Air Arm "fixer of aeroplanes" - very probably started off as a wren air mechanic
More power to her!!
harry.gibbon
27-12-2011, 18:58
More details of the award winning Sailors and Marines are to be found in this Navy News article:-
http://www.navynews.co.uk/archive/news/item/3101
together with mention of the other service personnel who received awards.
Little h
I think our servicemen and women are doing a great job in a terrible location. They deserve all of the credit and our respect as they put their lives on the line for us ( just as we did when we served)
diverdags
30-12-2011, 09:25
Well, I guess I might as well stick my oar in too. lol
To the modern matelot and matlass [matlass???] can I say this in all sincerity.
You are in the greatest fighting service the World has ever produced and one with a very proud history and unsurpassed tradition. Some have screwed up along the way but overall the Andrew has a superb record, and although smaller than we oldies knew it is still the most professional navy on the planet.
We ancient naval reprobates managed to keep it going in our day, in spite of all the free rum and duty free fags we consumed along the way, and now it's your turn. You haven't got the rum, baccy and trips down the gut to distract you, so I am absolutely certain that you will perform at least as well as we did, and in some ways it would be bl@@dy hard to do worse.
As Admiral Andrew Cunningham said...it takes 3 years to build a ship, 3 hundred to build a tradition. Please maintain that tradition a bit longer if only to keep us proud old salts proud old salts. Most of us if we are honest, love [and that is not too strong a word] the RN and will take that love to the grave with us. So keep that tradition alive - Do it in spite of governmental tight-fistedness and with our blessings and best wishes. Our parent's generation thought we weren't up to it either, so ignore the old grumps among us. God bless the lot of you, both female and male.
I fully endorse the above remarks.
Hear hear I too applaud those remarks...from a daughter of a Matelot...
Regards karen
SheppeyMiss
30-12-2011, 20:53
diverdags pretty much says all in his post #125 (http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10010641&postcount=125), amen and amen to that.
Derek Dicker
31-12-2011, 08:43
Morning all,
From another anchor faced old matlot, totally agree with sentiments expressed by Diver Dags, the spare room from which I work with my computer is a record of times gone by. Photographs of vessels on which I served and some not. If only I could move a camcorder around.
Derek (Bunts)
buster185
31-12-2011, 16:47
Gud on yer mate - Diver Dags, I totally agree with your comments and sentiments. My Dad/Uncles thought Ganges was a bit whimpy when I joined in 64, one of my Uncles was special forces (Royal Marines) embedded in Denmark during WWII, he thought I was pretty OK for joining up when all my mates were going a bit Hippy, that meant a lot to me! Everything is changing and we need to embrace it. Kids are much better educated and informed these days, I've got several and I wouldn't want to see them doing unnecessary crappy jobs like we had to do in the pusser in the 60s. The RN taught me many things, discipline and respect of traditions and our heritage, as well as a useful trade. I did very well in civvy street because of what I learned in the RN. I think that the kids of today who live in a very strange world should be given all the respect and support they deserve if they decide to volunteer against all the trends. All you old salts can't turn back the clock, stop whinging and accept it for the progressive situation it is. I think the new Darings rock!! I just wish I was 17 again!!
Buster
Simply concur with the above.
harry.gibbon
17-05-2012, 16:34
FLEET INFORMATION MANAGEMENT UNIT (FIMU)
Purpose of the Case Study
The Case Study has been written in response to requests for examples of PRINCE2 implementation from organisations considering using the method.
The Fleet Information Management Unit (FIMU)
FIMU is a Royal Naval organisation which supplies encyclopaedic data to the Fleet to support Maritime operations worldwide. They are a production unit and have selected elements of PRINCE2 to meet their needs. As such, they are a good example of how PRINCE2 can link into existing production and general management processes.
Acknowledgements
Thanks are due to the Officer in Charge of FIMU, Lieutenant Commander Anthony Knight and Mr Ian Warnecke, Quality Manager and their colleagues in the Unit, for their time and the information they provided.
Q:\
At the time this Case Study was compiled, HMS Fearless, an amphibious assault ship, which had been in service for 30 years made her final journey back into Portsmouth Harbour. When she started active service her Operations Room would have looked very much like those seen in classic films, dominated by boards and charts. Since then computerisation has advanced to the point where her replacement, designated a Landing Platform Dock (LPD), has a paperless Operations Room where all information is supplied and displayed electronically to support the operational deployment and tactical tasking of Royal Marine commandos moving from afloat to ashore.
The Operations Room is the centre for Command Mission Planning and Situation Awareness and is supported by Command Support Information Systems (CSIS), which hold mission essential information. CSIS are computers, which have specialised planning tools and software applications to enable a Commander to undertake operational planning for the deployment of forces. Their high-tech communications allow them to share plans with other Units. It has been tagged ‘windows for warriors’. CSIS equipment is installed in all major warships and submarines and some shore establishments. FIMU supplies information for these systems, for both real time operations and pre-planned exercises. Both have a high demand for encyclopaedic data and referential information.
The range of information required to support Fleet operations, is vast and the source and format of the data is very varied. Sources are both military and non-military and include authoritative bodies such as the Defence Intelligence Service, Air Warfare Centre, United Kingdom Hydrographic Office and Military Survey. Source data may include books, maps, charts, electronic imagery, photographs and electronic documents and databases. FIMU maintains a corporate MOD database, known as the Defence, Command and Army Data Model (DCADM) and responds to requests for information for specific naval operations by bringing together all the data which is considered to be necessary and converting it into a common format for use by the CSIS planning tools and software applications. FIMU therefore sees its aim as: to deliver the Right Information, to the Right person, for the Right system, in the Right format, at the Right time. This is summarised as an abbreviated nickname R5I, which also forms the FIMU Corporate Logo.
FIMU was established in 1997 with 15 members of staff who were a mixture of Royal Navy and Civil Service personnel. Two production teams had been formed and there were plans for a third. The extremely heavy work demands and differences in working practices led to a breakdown in communications between the production teams and a general lack of unity throughout the department. The Unit exhibited little teamwork, was disjointed and suffered from a range of cultural and structural issues resulting from the interface between Service and Civilian staff, which was having an adverse affect upon the working environment.
FIMU is unique in that it has no counterparts amongst other military organisations and therefore has no blue print on which to base its development. In December 1998, a change of management highlighted the need for greater cohesion and a means of bringing the Unit together. What was needed was a method. PRINCE2 fitted the bill because it was well documented, well structured and thus saved the need to reinvent the wheel. All staff could relate to it and it provided a common way of working for staff from diverse backgrounds.
FIMU activities are directed by a military Chain of Command that emanates from the Fleet Headquarters and the use of PRINCE2 was seen as a way to satisfy, without duplication, the business criteria for accountability and management control.
Q:\
Since PRINCE2 was first introduced to FIMU in January 1999, manpower numbers have increased by 300% and there are now 52 staff in the Unit, a mixture of Naval staff, Civil Service staff, contractors and Naval Reservists in 4 data production teams. According to the Officer in Charge of FIMU, Lieutenant Commander Anthony Knight:
‘The Unit’s organisational structure based on PRINCE2 has proved to be both robust and flexible. Throughout this ongoing and dynamic increase, PRINCE2 methodology has proved itself invaluable in keeping the production and support teams together, maintaining close co-operation and adherence to the concepts of quality and teamwork.
In particular, the Unit has benefited from the order and structure given to the business processes, the well defined lines of communication, superior team and task coordination and awareness of the importance of product quality, accountability and responsibility. The formal planning process has strengthened workload assignment and monitoring. Senior management has been reassured of on-going progress from the Stage Reports and the Risk and Issue Logs allow the Project Manager to head-off potential problems which would otherwise have meant sacrificing quality, time or incurring higher costs.
If PRINCE2 did not exist, we would have had to develop something like it. It captures corporate knowledge, provides a template for best practice and facilitates continuous improvement.’
Ian Warnecke, who was given the responsibility of introducing PRINCE2 at the production level, could see from the outset the benefit of a neutral way of working and how some aspects of PRINCE2, such as risk management, could address the internal problems caused by the heavy workload and different working practices in the department. This was helped by the fact that his job at the time gave him a good appreciation of all the FIMU activities. Some colleagues who did not have the benefit of the broader view were initially less convinced of the need to change. Ian feels that a corner was turned when Checkpoint meetings were established which gave a vehicle for communication and brought issues to the surface, generating action by the appropriate people. Previously, it being a military environment, people were inclined ‘to cope’ and ‘get on with it’ in a way that might not have been best overall.
-------------------(Case Study continues)
POEW (Petty Officer Electronic Warfare) Kevin Stocker who took over the role of Production Manager after PRINCE2 had been introduced had a quick handover with no PRINCE2 training. He thinks of PRINCE2 as ‘just something I do, part and parcel of my job. In fact I did not realise I was using it, because it has become a standard operating procedure for the way we deliver our formatted data products’.
5. Tailoring PRINCE2
Initially, Lt Commander Knight and Ian Warnecke were trained to PRINCE2 Practitioner level and other personnel attended one or two-day in-house training courses. PRINCE2 was then evaluated to identify which elements would strengthen and enhance the work of FIMU and address problem areas concerning communication, coordination, accountability, responsibility, planning, risk management and feedback to senior management. Element selection was therefore tied very closely to perceived benefits.
FIMU does not conform to the normal project environment. It is a production unit. The delivery of data products to Fleet is continuous. In tailoring PRINCE2 they have therefore viewed a financial year as equivalent to a project and a financial quarter as equivalent to a stage in a project
The elements of PRINCE2 which were selected are described below. Appendix 2 contains a chart showing how PRINCE2 elements link to FIMU’s production process.
5.1 Organisation
FIMU uses the PRINCE2 customer/supplier concept to clarify working relationships and set up Working Groups with customers. Internally, the PRINCE2 Project Management team structure was adapted to fit the production unit environment as shown in the chart in Appendix 1.
One unusual adaptation was in the use of the Project Assurance role. In PRINCE2, people undertaking a Project Assurance role do so on behalf of the Project Board if the Project Board feel they do not have the time or expertise to monitor the Project Manager and the project's progress sufficiently closely themselves. As such, the Project Assurance role needs to be independent of the Project Manager. The FIMU organisation chart in Appendix 1 shows Project Assurance having line accountability to the Project Manager. This was a conscious decision taken to fit the resources available when PRINCE2 was first being implemented, and establish the Project Assurance principle. The approach has worked well.
5.2 Planning
Production was previously run on a day-to-day basis, reacting as work arrived. The Production Manager acted as the co-ordinator but passed on the work to the production teams without a holistic perspective. It became clear that the introduction of formal production plans would enhance effort and improve efficiency. A Yearly Work Plan and a quarterly review based on the concept of a PRINCE2 End Stage Assessment were introduced.
The Yearly Work Plan is prepared and approved by the Project Board. It is linked with FIMU business and financial plans. It is kept as a strategic document and used as a baseline for control. As such, it performs a similar function to a PRINCE2 Project Initiation Document though it is presented in a different format consistent with other general management information.
A Stage Plan is produced on a quarterly cycle. In line with PRINCE2 guidance, it defines work to be done and identifies products, tasks, resources and timescales. Once the content of the Stage Plan is agreed by the Project Board it provides the basis for the individual Product Control Forms (see below).
Q:\Users\Marie Day\Word\October 2002\Case Study MOD - The Fleet V10.doc 8
----------------------(Case Study continues with text, organisation charts, etc - although extract ends)
see this PDF (http://www.siliconbeachtraining.co.uk/free-resources/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/case-study-fleet.pdf)for the full report.
-----------------------------
The Modern Navy had indeed arrived, unlike the Poster campaign running when I joined up which invited us to 'Join Britains Modern Navy', that being the late 1950's.
Little h
harry.gibbon
17-05-2012, 16:54
Projects for/with the Modern Royal Navy.
A selection of just some completed projects undertaken by one individual, in just one Company, on behalf of/for the Modern Royal Navy (amongst others)
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T45 Combat Management System TNA - A Training Needs Analysis (TNA) was conducted for the Royal Navy's T45 Combat Management System. This entailed producing task lists, a description of knowledge, skills and attitudes, and a DIF (Difficulty, Importance, Frequency) Analysis for the personnel in the T45 Operations Room.
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T45 Twin Screen Platform Management System - This short programme of work culminated in a proposed design solution for a two screen platform management system (PMS) for the T45, due in service in 2007. The study used ergonomic guidelines and lessons learnt from a 4 screen PMS solution that had previously been trialed with Royal Navy experts.
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Anti Air Warfare (AAW) Cognitive Task Analysis - A detailed task analysis of the thought processes of a Royal Navy AAW Team was performed. Subject Matter Experts were interviewed in order to identify the key information requirements of Ops Room personnel, which were then presented in tabular & timeline formats.
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Multiple Events - This study trialed a prototype Royal Navy platform management system in order to assess the impact of automation on operator situational awareness. Subjects completed various tasks using systems with and without an automation mode. Both subjective and performance data were collected.
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Landing Platform Dock (Replacement) (LPD(R)) - Human Factors support was provided to this programme in terms of: style guide recommendations; compartment layout; interface design reviews; static acceptance (ergonomic principles) and dynamic acceptance (scenario walkthroughs).
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Warship Functions - Functional breakdowns were produced for all departments & organisations on a frigate sized platform. Departments covered included: Operations and Warfare; Marine Engineering; Weapons Engineering; Supply and Secretariate and NBCD Organisation. The final output combined all 5 functional breakdowns to produce a single wholeship functional breakdown.
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Roll and Pitch Information Display System - A video analysis was performed of helicopters launching and recovering from a frigate sized platform at sea. As a result of the analysis it was possible to identify the user's requirements of a system to provide ship's roll and pitch information.
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see this link (http://www.informeddesign.com/pr_page.htm)for details of the Company.
Our Senior Service clearly does not stand alone, in isolation from the skilled population which they serve, as of course was ever the case!!!
Little h
harry.gibbon
18-05-2012, 22:03
Some more examples of the Equipment and Systems that crew members on the ships of our Modern Naval have available. (COTS in action)
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Royal Navy
Project Profile: WECDIS Fleet Deployment
In 2004, Offshore Systems teamed up with Lockheed Martin UK to deliver fleet wide WECDIS (Warship Electronic Chart Display and Information System) capability to the Royal Navy (131 systems in total). The integration of ECPINS® W SUB software has expanded to 28 vessels with 26 certified as ‘Digital Navigation’ platforms. ECPINS displays Additional Military Layers (AML) and includes other features according to NATO STANAG 4564 including dived submarine navigation.
The ECPINS W SUB software is the heart of the WECDIS program and was identified as a major step forward in RN navigation capability. It is used throughout the fleet, installed in the Fleet Flagship HMS Ark Royal and onto a number of Frigate and Destroyer Platforms.
ECPINS W SUB is the RN standard for electronic navigation and is used in all aspects of military navigation including ships entering and leaving harbour and coastal and ocean passage navigation. In addition, ECPINS W SUB supports the ship’s warfare element for effective fighting.
The next phase of the RN WECDIS project includes completing installation in all remaining major warships, minor war vessels and submarines.
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“It is the additional military information it contains that is most impressive. We can mark on potential minefields or mid-ocean bottom profiling to enable us to better evaluate where submarines might be transiting or hiding, or even mark air routes to enable us to identify commercial air traffic from potential hostile aircraft.”
Commander Peter Sparkes
UK Royal Navy
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also; Warship - AIS
W-AIS builds on the core ECPINS product and meets IMO carriage requirements. It is designed to enhance Maritime Interdiction Operations, Situational Awareness and contribute to the Recognised Maritime Picture.
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“The Royal Navy (RN) constantly seeks to improve equipment and has fully embraced electronic navigation and, in doing so, has seen improvements in enhanced situational awareness. RN WECDIS and W-AIS have evolved from equipment that has been available in the commercial market and developed to provide the RN with first class capability. Both systems are being fully integrated into the Fleet and are providing ships and submarines with a clear operational edge.”
Commander Steve Holt
UK Royal Navy
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Link to the site (http://osigeospatial.com/offshoresystems/customers/government/Royal_UK_Navy.htm)from which the above was extracted.
COTS = Commercial Off The Shelf
R E S P E C T to all our Modern Navy servicemen and servicewomen!
Little h
harry.gibbon
19-05-2012, 21:55
Local Company provides ITQ, e-skills UK recognised training at HMS Dryad
HMD/Royal Navy
HMD Ltd is a leading training company in the South East of England, with over twenty years experience in its field. It provides publicly funded training, as well as some commercial training, and operates several Learndirect and ECDL test centres. HMD is well practised in delivering ICT and vocational training and was one of the first training providers to pilot the new ITQ. The company was quick to recognise the potential value of the ITQ pilot project to its clients, which include the Royal Navy. HMD is currently working closely with the Royal Navy to develop and implement highly tailored ITQ programmes
Working with the Royal Navy
The Royal Navy operates a range of high quality training schemes - that have been developed over a long period of time – to identify and develop the skills, knowledge and understanding required to build the competent performance of its staff. The organisation runs its own training for IT skills development as part of its Professional Royal Navy Training Courses, but wanted to explore using ITQ to validate its training with a national qualification.
"Based on the new National Occupational Standards (NOS) and accredited into the National Qualification Framework, ITQ could enable the many IT users serving within the Royal Navy to gain recognition of their skills within a national framework, and provide an opportunity to incorporate and validate their own training courses within the ITQ programme," explained George.
It was decided by HMD to initially concentrate on the validation of one course and a sample of 12 candidates working in the Operations room simulators of one of the Royal Navy’s Training Establishments, HMS Dryad. The Operations room within a ship contains a large amount of highly customised Information Technology applications and software used by members of the Warfare Branch. A core element of this is the Computer Assisted Command System (CACS) a very large and specialist bespoke unit that has been especially designed to meet the demands of the Type 22 Frigate’s Command and Control system, which is controlled by the Petty Officer (Above Water Warfare Tactical) - PO (AWT). Logically the IT proficiency of the PO (AWT) needs to be the greatest and was the focus area for the initial ITQ candidates.
Developing Highly Customised ITQ Profiles
To determine the ITQ project plan, a detailed study and assessment was conducted by HMD which incorporated an analysis of the Royal Navy’s organisational objectives, existing training practices and proposed candidate’s skill levels, alongside an audit of the systems and software the department used. This enabled HMD to establish the skills required to meet the Royal Navy’s organisational needs and measure the true level of staff IT competency, matched against the NOS. From this, HMD was able to develop an ITQ profile - the training options and programme for each candidate - enabling them to address the Royal Navy’s training requirements in great detail with individually customised courses for each PO (AWT), specifically designed to the Royal Navy’s IT environment.
Due to the highly specialised and unusual nature of the activities being assessed by HMD a coordinated visit from a City & Guilds External Verifier, Steve Lloyd, was set up to further validate the findings and assessment plan of HMD.
A Successful Start
Ten of the twelve candidates completed and achieved the ITQ level 3 award in March, together with the validation of the PO(AWT) training course. One candidate will receive part credit as he was appointed to sea during the pilot and the remaining candidate is expected to complete soon.
PO Morris, one of the candidates taking part in the ITQ project, reflects on his experience, "By integrating the ITQ syllabus as part of my professional training, I’ve been able to gain a valuable qualification and improve my skills at no extra cost or effort. What has been of real value is the ability to officially certify my existing knowledge of IT and utilise the skills I’ve gained within the Royal Navy to achieve a civilian recognised qualification."
"From my experience, I can easily see how ITQ can have a significant impact on our organisational performance if it is extended to more staff, by helping to develop even more efficient and effective methods of using IT within our department,” added PO Morris. “Following the success of the initial pilot, I believe the Royal Navy is now investigating the possibility of integrating the ITQ award into several of its professional training courses."
HMD is committed to sharing best practice and supplied the Royal Navy’s own NVQ cell with the results of the ITQ pilot project to demonstrate how ITQ can further support the validation process of other Warfare Branch training courses.
About HMD Ltd
HMD Limited has been involved in training since 1984, originally providing management and training services in the hair and beauty industry, it has since broadened its activities to include training and development services in a range of other industries.
Based originally in Fareham, HMD has expanded its training operation throughout Hampshire and neighbouring counties offering total training solutions for businesses however large or small. Through expansion and acquisition we have developed specialist subsidiary operations with a wealth of knowledge and expertise in their sector.
In 2004 HMD was inspected by the Adult Learning Inspectorate and was considered good in all sectors of learning and its company management. HMD is now approved by many awarding bodies to offer Nationally and internationally recognised qualifications. The Investors in People Award was achieved by the Company in 1997 and has been re-accredited each year subsequently.
About the Maritime Warfare School and HMS Dryad
Within the framework of the Naval Recruiting and Training Agency (NRTA), the primary aim of the Maritime Warfare School (MWS) is to deliver world class Maritime Warfare Training, providing the required number of Warfare Personnel appropriately trained for their individual tasks – "Ready to Fight and Win". The Maritime Warfare School currently consists of HMS Collingwood, Dryad and Excellent.
Dryad provides training to over 5000 students a year, attending over 265 different types of courses. An annual budget of some 36 million pounds is required to manage assets which include an estate of some 300 acres and 65 buildings, efficiently to ensure that, within these available resources, personnel continue to be trained as effectively as possible.
Last modified: 28 Apr 2009
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read full article here (http://itq2003.e-skills.com/Case-Studies/1346#A new approach)
One just wishes that the RN had been as enlightened about recognised civilian qualifications during my time in. We were required to do the courses but denied the qualification that resulted from doing so. I think Teuchter and myself exchanged views about this in a thread somewhere.
Little h
What is the real date of that article Harry, do you know?
On the one hand it mentions CACS, which is pretty ancient, on the other civilian IT qualifications in the RN which I thought were much more recent
harry.gibbon
19-05-2012, 22:20
What is the real date of that article Harry, do you know?
On the one hand it mentions CACS, which is pretty ancient, on the other civilian IT qualifications in the RN which I thought were much more recent
Prom,
Sorry, I have not been able to ascertain the date of the article. The menu on the left of the linked article provides links making reference to the 2003 ITQ Qualifications.
Little h
I can therefore only assume that the CACS reference is some strange legacy then. Odd
harry.gibbon
19-05-2012, 22:34
I can therefore only assume that the CACS reference is some strange legacy then. Odd
Misplaced references to Command and Control Systems (CACS) on Type 22's, Aerials and Arrays not always in the places we expect them to be .... just some of the issues we need to bottom out Prom;):) Odd indeed.
Little h
harry.gibbon
19-05-2012, 23:30
The Officer Corps of the Modern Royal Navy
Intermediate Command and Staff Course (Maritime) (ICSC(M))
The Intermediate Command and Staff Course (Maritime) is the pinnacle of formal single-Service command and staff education for Royal Naval Officers. It is designed to capture all mid-to-late seniority Lieutenants and newly promoted Lieutenant Commanders to prepare and equip them for future command, charge, and staff appointments. Since April 2011 it has been a pre-requisite for consideration for future selection for the Advanced Command & Staff Course.
The aim of the ICSC(M) is:
To contribute to Stage 1 of Maritime Through Career Development training and education for Royal Naval Lieutenants and Lieutenant Commanders, preparing them for SO2 command, charge and staff appointments by further developing their: leadership; analytical and communication skills; understanding of the international environment; knowledge of UK Defence Management and UK Military capabilities; understanding of the maritime environment; and how maritime power contributes to Joint and Combined operations. Furthermore, it is to evaluate their potential for further staff training and is to reinforce the RN ethos.
The course last 8 weeks and covers 5 main areas:
Command, Leadership, Management & Ethos
Staff & Communication Skills
Strategic Studies: The International Environment and UK Defence Management
Maritime Studies: Strategy, Environment, Capabilities, and the Royal Naval Service
Joint Studies: Capabilities, Environment, and Joint and Combined Operations
Command, Leadership, Management & Ethos (CLME)
The ICSC(M) provides an important opportunity for students to discuss a wide range of CLME topics and to take stock of their own personal development. These studies are inter-woven throughout the course with opportunities taken to expose the students to the personal experiences and insights of CLME from a wide range of speakers. A number of historical leaders are studied to draw out the lessons for contemporary maritime officers; these are supported by syndicate room discussions and military tutorials which allow the key issues to be further explored and debated.
Staff & Communication Skills (S&CS)
The Staff & Communication Skills module is also spread throughout the course with much of the work being done as part of other elements of the course. As all students are expected to have completed the online electronic Defence Writing (eDW) package before arriving, students are very rapidly taken through and tested on the fundamental Defence Writing conventions early on in the course. The basic aim is not to do “staff work” for its own sake, but to learn and develop these skills whilst studying other elements of the course syllabus by delivering formal and informal presentations, submitting various styles of written work, or leading and contributing in syndicate room discussions. The emphasis is on effective communication using the most appropriate method and media to share information and improve understanding. Supported by widely available IT equipment it is also coherent with the MoD-wide focus on reducing unnecessary paperwork. The oral skills package contains a range of formative and assessed operational type briefings and formal 1* briefs. This module also includes staff officer skills, problem solving, report writing and decision briefs and uses syndicate exercises to consolidate and reinforce all these points. This module focuses on the a, b, c of all good staff work – accuracy, brevity & clarity.
Strategic Studies (SS): The International Environment and UK Defence Management
Strategic Studies covers a wide range of subjects and aims to set the strategic context within which UK maritime forces operate. It includes an extensive lecture programme provided by both Defence Studies Department (DSD) and external lecturers, student research time to study and reflect during each stage and a number of syndicate room discussions led by DSD tutors. It covers topics such as: understanding the international environment; globalisation; security; British politics, economics, foreign, and defence policies; European defence and security; United States domestic and foreign policy; the United Nations; and global and regional security studies. UK Defence Management includes: the MoD; acquisition policy; DE&S; the media; equipment capability; defence strategy; and strategic deterrence.
Maritime Studies (MS): Strategy, Environment, Capabilities, and the Royal Navy
Maritime Studies aims to develop understanding of the unique nature and importance of the maritime environment whilst putting the Royal Navy properly into the context of the strategic environment studied earlier. The key tenets of strategy and strategic thought are introduced focusing on: strategic thinkers; UK and US maritime strategy; maritime power; maritime doctrine; and naval diplomacy. To ensure students leave with a good understanding of their own Service, a range of subjects are covered including: UK maritime capabilities; force generation; current commitments; maritime power projection; maritime security; international engagement; and RN personnel and branch update briefs. The most pressing Naval Staff issues are also exposed during course visits to the MoD and NCHQ.
Joint Context (JC): Capabilities, Environment, and Joint and Combined Operations
This package studies the core capabilities of the UK Armed Forces and the environments in which they operate. These are particularly well supported due to the Joint make-up of Royal Naval Division Directing Staff, consisting Royal Navy, Royal Marine, Army and Royal Air Force officers; the maritime contribution to Joint and Combined Operations is also examined. The utility and constraints of military force are explored covering topics such as: military power; legal and ethical issues; the nature of contemporary and future conflict; terrorism & counter-terrorism; counter-insurgency; and stabilisation operations. Combined operations are discussed exposing the specific challenges faced during NATO and other coalition operations. To complete the course a number of historical operations are studied to draw out the key lessons for maritime officers involved in contemporary operations. The Normandy Campaign is studied in detail, both here in the JSCSC and during a 2-day staff ride to the Normandy beaches to experience this environment first-hand. On the penultimate day of the course individual reflections on the realities of conflict are heard from military officers with experience from past and current operations, ensuring the CLME aspects of the course are reinforced to the very end.
The Student Body
There are up to 50 students on each ICSC(M). The majority of students are career or full term commission Royal Naval Officers supplemented by Royal Marine and Royal Fleet Auxiliary officers. Additional MoD Civil Service employees and occasionally international students add to the already wide range of backgrounds and experience. Students are divided into syndicates of up to 10, each with its own military Directing Staff (DS) and Kings College Defence Studies Department (DSD) academic tutor. The deliberate mixture of student specialisations and experience in syndicate is key to the success of the ICSC(M) as a broadening and educational course.
The JSCSC Environment
The course is an intensive and challenging 8 weeks, designed to breakdown pre-conceived ideas and bring students right up-to-date with the latest challenges and issues facing the Royal Navy. Within the demanding study programme there are opportunities for social and sporting activities which aid syndicate and course bonding and the exchange of ideas. The wide range of courses at the JSCSC undertaken by UK Armed Forces officers, other Government Department officials and those from international military forces, enables informal engagement, thus enhancing the student learning experience as much as possible.
Accreditation
The ICSC(M) is accredited by the Open University (OU), at both undergraduate and postgraduate level, by the Chartered Management Institute (CMI) and by the Institute of Leadership and Management (ILM).
Joint Services Command and Staff College
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taken from the this website
(http://www.da.mod.uk/colleges/jscsc/courses/RND/icsc-m)
Little h
johnny07
21-05-2012, 20:35
Bring back KR&AIs and fighting spirit.
harry.gibbon
21-05-2012, 21:00
Bring back KR&AIs and fighting spirit.
Johnny,
Not possible; we have neither King nor Admiralty!!
In my opinion the young servicemen and servicewomen, including reservists, are doing a fine job in today's Navy. Perhaps more emphasis by the various branches of the media should be given to show their contribution ashore in Afghanistan for instance, rather than just the medal winners.
My recent posts identify some of the aspects of training and recognition of that training by civilian 'standard setters' that are undertaken in this the latest version of the modern navy. My belief is that former Artificers would certainly appreciate the need for good training, which leads to recognised qualifications that have received accreditation by the appropriate civilian Institutes and/or Universities.
Wish that it had been so in my time.
Little h
johnny07
22-05-2012, 21:40
Johnny,
Not possible; we have neither King nor Admiralty!!
In my opinion the young servicemen and servicewomen, including reservists, are doing a fine job in today's Navy. Perhaps more emphasis by the various branches of the media should be given to show their contribution ashore in Afghanistan for instance, rather than just the medal winners.
My recent posts identify some of the aspects of training and recognition of that training by civilian 'standard setters' that are undertaken in this the latest version of the modern navy. My belief is that former Artificers would certainly appreciate the need for good training, which leads to recognised qualifications that have received accreditation by the appropriate civilian Institutes and/or Universities.
Wish that it had been so in my time.
Little h
As a former artificer I agree Harry.
I do moan at times about todays navy but my nephew is a naval officer and although he has'nt done much sea time he works really hard in his shoreside activities.
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