Convoy QP11 April 1942

[Frenshard]

Arctic convoy QP11 – rescue of survivors

In connection with work in progress on a novel, I am hoping to find some more detailed information about an incident that took place in May 1942 in the Barents Sea 100 nautical miles North of the Kola Inlet. I have found a Russian report stating that the freighter Tsiolkovsky, with a cargo of timber for the UK, was sunk during an encounter with German ships Z-24 and Z-25 and U-boat U-589. 33 lives were lost but ‘13 of the crew were rescued by an English (sic) corvette’. I see from other sources that there were four British corvettes escorting convoy QP11 from Murmansk to Iceland: Campanula, Oxlip, Saxifrage and Snowflake. My questions are:

1. Which of these corvettes picked up the 13 survivors?
2. Would the corvette have launched a cutter (or similar) to effect the rescue? If so, what would have been involved in lowering and retrieving such a craft in possibly heavy seas?
3. If no boat were launched, by what methods might they possibly have got the survivors on board?
4. How would the rescue procedures differ if the survivors were in the water as opposed to in a lifeboat? I appreciate that, in this case, survival times might be as little as two minutes.
5. If a further survivor were to have been picked up by one of the British freighters (as opposed to a naval vessel) would the rescue procedures have been similar?
5. I understand that sleeping accommodation was very limited on these Flower class corvettes and that they carried a larger crew on these missions than they had been designed to do. How might they have accommodated the survivors on board?
6. If one of the survivors proved to be female (a galley-hand from the freighter for instance) what arrangement could they have made for her? What was there in the way of officer accommodation on board, for example?

This incident will be part of an otherwise non-nautical story and, although I have written articles and textbook material for commercial shipping publications, I have no naval background so please assume no specialist knowledge. Apologies for the number of queries but I have not been able to find the answers so far despite fairly extensive searching. Any help with any of the questions would be greatly appreciated.

Chris

[jos odijk2]

Arctic convoy QP11 – rescue of survivors

In connection with work in progress on a novel, I am hoping to find some more detailed information about an incident that took place in May 1942 in the Barents Sea 100 nautical miles North of the Kola Inlet. I have found a Russian report stating that the freighter Tsiolkovsky, with a cargo of timber for the UK, was sunk during an encounter with German ships Z-24 and Z-25 and U-boat U-589. 33 lives were lost but ‘13 of the crew were rescued by an English (sic) corvette’. I see from other sources that there were four British corvettes escorting convoy QP11 from Murmansk to Iceland: Campanula, Oxlip, Saxifrage and Snowflake. My questions are:

1. Which of these corvettes picked up the 13 survivors?
2. Would the corvette have launched a cutter (or similar) to effect the rescue? If so, what would have been involved in lowering and retrieving such a craft in possibly heavy seas?
3. If no boat were launched, by what methods might they possibly have got the survivors on board?
4. How would the rescue procedures differ if the survivors were in the water as opposed to in a lifeboat? I appreciate that, in this case, survival times might be as little as two minutes.
5. If a further survivor were to have been picked up by one of the British freighters (as opposed to a naval vessel) would the rescue procedures have been similar?
5. I understand that sleeping accommodation was very limited on these Flower class corvettes and that they carried a larger crew on these missions than they had been designed to do. How might they have accommodated the survivors on board?
6. If one of the survivors proved to be female (a galley-hand from the freighter for instance) what arrangement could they have made for her? What was there in the way of officer accommodation on board, for example?

This incident will be part of an otherwise non-nautical story and, although I have written articles and textbook material for commercial shipping publications, I have no naval background so please assume no specialist knowledge. Apologies for the number of queries but I have not been able to find the answers so far despite fairly extensive searching. Any help with any of the questions would be greatly appreciated.

Chris

I cannot add much, but according to "Arctic convoys 1941-1945" of Richard Woodman, the trawler Lord Middleton was sent back for survivors.

Jos

[clevewyn]

Jos

UBoat net confirms the Lord Middleton story but puts the number of survivors at 14.

http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/ship/6408.html

[Frenshard]

Thanks Jos and Clevewyn.

Both of these items of information are very helpful.

Chris

[jainso31]

As far as I am aware, corvettes used scrambling nets lowered over the side of the ship, with crew members along that side to pull survivors onboard.



jainso31

[jainso31]

Convoy QP11 departed Murmansk, Russia on the 28th April 1942 with 13 merchantmen with local escorts comprising two Russian destroyers and four RN minesweepers-Gossamer ,Harrier, Hussar, and Niger.
The Ocean Escorts were RN destroyers Amazon,Beagle,Beverley and Bulldog;corvettes Campanula,Oxlip,Saxifrage, and Snowflake.and the trawler Lord Middleton.
From the 28th- 30th destroyers Foresight and Forester in addition to the above
From 30th Cruiser Edinburgh which was carrying five tons of Russian Gold.
On the 30th Edinburgh was torpedoed by a Uboat and she limped back to Russia.Three German destroyers attacked the convoy and sank one of the merchantmen which was straggling.The attacks continued but the clever manoeuvring by the Convoy Commodore averted them-the weather too came to the rescue along with the ice packs.The passage could only be described as hellish.
On 2nd May these three German destroyers found Edinburgh and a series of confused fights took place amid snowstorms and smoke screens.Edinburgh disabled Hermann Schoemann; but was torpedoed by Z24 who was aiming at Forester but missed and hit Edinburgh.In these melees the RN destroyers Forester and Foresight were also damaged.
Both the Edinburgh and the Hermann Schoemann were scuttled on the 2nd
The surviving 12 merchantmen reached Rekyjavik,Iceland on the 7th May without further incident.
http://ahoy.tk-jk.net/macslog/TheGoldenCruiser.HMSEdinb.html

jainso31

[Hugh Williams]

Hi there,

There is a great book to be read around the subject: 'Last Call for HMS Edinburgh' by Frank Pearce. This book also looks at the hard graft that was put into getting these convoys through and the hardships suffered once the ships had got through to Russia, with the Germans knocking on Murmansk's front door.

Regards,

Hugh Williams

[jainso31]

Thanks Hugh for your interest; and I shall certainly look out for the book you mention.

jainso31

[Keith Enge]

I probably should clarify something in the original post. After the U-boat hit Edinburgh with two torps, the convoy continued on with the escort given of four old British DDs and four corvettes while Edinburgh retreated slowly to Murmansk with an escort of Forester, Foresight, and the four minesweepers of the local escort. The Russian DDs had left and were no longer part of either action against the three German DDs.

The three DDs against against the convoy was a very balanced action. It lasted all afternoon while the DDs made six attempts to get around the escorts to the merchant ships. They finally gave up to try to find Edinburgh which was their actual mission. When they found her, Edinburgh had no stern, no rudder, only one screw, and was moving at only two knots. She did, however, have three primary turrets left which devastated DD Schoemann before Edinburgh took a third torp hit and had to be scuttled. The two British DDs were badly damaged too but the remaining German DDs concentrated on rescuing the crew of Schoemann instead of finishing them off. This was understandable but their victory, therefore, wasn't all that it could have been.

[jainso31]

You mention four old destroyers -would they be the Amazon,Beagle,Beverley and Bulldog??and the corvettes I assume were Campanula, Oxlip,Saxifrage and Snowflake.Are they not mentioned in the link that I left???
What did you think of the little map??
PS I need to know whether that which I have produced is of any value or not-and no, I am not thin skinned-so do tell me please.???
jainso31

[Keith Enge]

jainso31 -

You had the DDs and minesweepers correct. About the DDs, all were old and had their armament reduced to carry more ASW weapons. The three British DDs lost their aftmost gun mount and half of their tubes. Beverly was an ex-US four piper that was even more radically altered. She had only one 4" and one 3" gun, six tubes, but she did get two DC racks, six DC throwers, and a hedgehog. Unlike some of the destroyers for bases ships, she did retain all of her boilers so her speed was unaffected but, of course, her cruising range was thus not good (in other ships, boilers were traded for more bunker oil). The reduction of gun and torpedo armament of these four DDs is what made the force balance against the three German DDs about even (7% German advantage). Of course, the British ships were hampered by having to defend the convoy which makes their imaginative defense even more impressive.

I have seen the map from that and other sources. For my purposes, however, it is unuseful. It shows the overall movement of both operations but neither of the actual battles. Even if it had been what I needed, it lacks essential elements. Along the force tracks, there are numerous position dots but virtually none have timestamps which makes them useless. Over five years ago, MAc's Web Log, the site you referenced, did provide me with some help. In response to my request on the forum, someone pointed me at a map of the July 19 1940 Cape Spada action. I was able to use it to make an animated map. I provide a link to that map here (http://www.navy.gov.au/HMAS_Sydney_%28II%29) so that you can see the type of detail I require. That same site had a map of the Sydney-Kormoran action which I combined with another map to make my animated map of that other action.

[jainso31]

The difficulty that I had was finding an entry which described all the actions of defending the convoy-all roads wound up at Edinburgh.I have Paul Kemp's book
CONVOY -Drama in Arctic waters.It has no maps and the action surrounding QP11 is scarce indeed,However it does mentiona torpedo attack by aircraft at 05.40 on May 1st when the convoy was 150 mls ESE of Bear Island.At the same time Amazon beat off a Uboat attack.There were four others shadowing so the convoy altered course 40* to starboard leading them towards the ice and then westward.
At13.45 snowflake reported three contacts which proved to be three dstroyers from Kirkenes .Meanwhile convoy was escorted by corvettes only.At 14.00 Bulldog turned toward the enemy on a SW course with the other three in line ahead.The three Germans were 10000 yds away heading for the convoy and at 14.07 both sides opened fire-both fired torpedoes to no effect.During the brief engagement Amazon was hit smashing her steering gear and one of her guns.
Between 14.37 and 17.42 the Germans made four more attacks but the convoys repeatedly changing course beat them and they gave up at 17.42. and went to look foe Edinburgh.Do hope this is helpful???
jainso31

[Keith Enge]

I would add to the discussion that the gunfire was at long ranges for destroyers, between about 10,000 and 15,000 yards, which probably helps explain why most of it was ineffective (smokescreens didn't help either). I also would note that some torpedoes from both sides hit ice flows.

I feel that I already understand the battle as well as I can from text descriptions. However, to truly understand a battle, a map is needed, preferably an animated one. I have twice tried to make maps of other battles from fairly comprehensive battle reports that included gunfire bearings and ranges but gave it up when inconsistencies emerged. Maps aren't a total panacea but their problems are usually typographical errors that can be corrected. Another problem is maps from the two different sides that must be reconciled (each side tends to have a much better idea of position/time of their own ships than of the enemy's ship). However, even a bad map is better than none at all.

[WGVSr]

The interesting postscript to this story is that of the Russian gold being carried aboard Edinburgh. The czarist gold was bound for the US in payment for weaponry, about 5.5 tons of the metal. It rested inside Edinburgh is some 130 fathoms for 40 years until Keith Jessops found Edinburgh and began the salvage. As Edinburgh was a war grave, there were political considerations but I believe Jessops eventually got about $35M, the USSR $30M and Britain the rest, the latter amounts being in shares per the amount insured by each government in 1942. It is likely the 'richest' sunken treasure of WWII was the Liberty ship John Berry had a huge cargo of silver aboard when sunk by U-859 off Oman. I think she was found ca. 1990 and the cargo slowly salved. I heard rumors of present day values of up to $500M on that cargo although in reality it was probably somewhat less, probably short of $100M.
Bill

[jainso31]

Well Keith- all I can say is that I did my best to provide you with something useful for your database-it appears to me that I have failed; and that I must say it is somewhat of a disappointment. I suppose it stems from not really knowing what it is exactly, that you require.
I shall be back on line tomorrow; and then I am off line for the 4-5 weeks.

jainso31

[jainso31]

After foiling six determined attacks by the German destroyers from 14.05 up to 17.47 when the Germans disengaged to go after Edinburgh-the position was as follows-Amazon was the only ship significantly damaged.Bulldog and Beagle had their fighting ability slightly impaired by splinter damage and the concussive impact of near misses; during the prolonged but successful engagement as escorts to convoy QP11.
As the German destroyers disappeared to the south east ,Commander Maxwell Richmond RN (OC Close Escort) signalled congratulations on their gallant performance to his fellow captains.
One replied "I should hate to play poker with you" Such was the spirit of the Royal Navy.

jainso31

[tim lewin]

Frank Pearce wrote various accounts of these events, lucidly and with probably good accuracy, he was there. "last Call for HMS Edinburgh" is the most focussed but from memory he also recounts the events in his book about the loss of Trinidad "The ship that torpedoed herself" and again in "Running the Gauntlet". All these are well worth the finding and reading.

Jessops did their research on the interior of Edinburgh and how best to access the gold aboard HMS Belfast which altho substantially altered in upper works in the 1950s was mostly unchanged internally and as good as identical to Edinburgh; they presented the ship with a small model, casting, of the hull of Edinburgh as they found her on the seabed, it is in the director's cabin (formerly the captain's cabin. Next time i go i will photgraph it and post on the forum.

The destruction of the Schoemann was reportedly accomplished by sighting "down the barrell" of Edinbugh's fwrd turret, cant remember A or B, she was circling on her single screw to try to keep movement and avoid another torpedo when the Schoemann hove up out of the snow straight in line with the turret's direction, i think there was now power to train. Schoemann was at some 3000 yards, point blank, and recieved the full weight of ther turret's fire which smashed her to bits and set her ablaze from stem to stern, utterly disabled. Note that Schoeman was armed with very similar size guns to Edinburgh, 5.9 vs 6" so it was fortunate that Edinburgh was fully loaded and guns ready, and that whoever was in command of that gun was totally alert.

[jainso31]

My thanks to you Tim for your fulsome postscript .Very interesting tale about Edinburgh's shots aimed "down the barrel" at Schoemann to put her down; did take a very alert man with a very high sense of duty.
The very essence of the Royal Navy.

jainso31

[tim lewin]

indeed; i think it was as much the hard-won experience of the RN as anything else that determined the outcome of the Batle of Noth Cape and the Battle of Barents Sea as the enemy certainly had matching if not superior forces, in the Barents Sea battle the forces were overwhelmingly superior. Would you like a copy of the booklet i did for the Belfast ceremony (re dedication of the new masts) which have their first anniversary on 19-October?
tim

[jainso31]

Yes Please Tim- and what do you require of me please??:)

jainso31

[tim lewin]

just pm me your email address and i will email you the one we used but will soon reprint with some updates to go with the release of our DVD on the project (masts) which will accomodate some extra sponsors, this should be ready in December so will post all details in the Belfast thread when done, i am supposed to meet the director next thursday who assures me its nearly finished! 19th October will be the first anniversary of the dedication last year of the new masts