View Full Version : HMS Vanguard 1944-1960
Hi Everybody
Can someone help me out with some information. I have read in a couple of books that because the Vanguard was so sea worthy for a battleship she could be driven so fast in very rough weather that she could strain herself. To this end a speed restriction when sailing through heavy seas was applied. Is there any truth in this?
Thanks in advance
Throd
tim lewin
03-10-2007, 15:02
most battleships of the previous generation had low focsles to allow a wider range of gun elevation by the main batteries which did nothing for the sea-keeping possibilities. They were all very wet forrard and frequently too in water through the turrets and "lost" lighter equipment in heavy weather. At the battle of North Cape the Duke of York had her focsle AA guns swept away allowing water to pour in through the mounting holes as well as taking in massive quantities of water through her A mounting to the great discomfort of the crews. Vanguard was therefore designed with a raised foclse making her potentially much more weatherly but I cant say about speed limits. Vanguard actually saw rather little sea service, I remember her laid up in Fareham Creek. At one time my father was threatened with an appointment as her first Lt. to get her out of reserve but fortunately the Admiralty changed their minds.
tim
Aaah! Fareham Creek Tim...that brings back memories for me.
Now called "Port Solent" 'cos of all the posh sailing type properties that have been built there.
Fareham Creek wouldn't quite have the same kerb appeal would it. :D
Even the Gosport ferry has to make an appointment to cross the arber;) and the mud is polished
Is it true from what I was told that, every broadside she fired, she split her upper decks?
I think I've said this on another thread. I remember when the Vanguard popped into the Still & West for a last pint on her way to the breakers.
Ernest H
29-11-2007, 00:53
Hi Alan B, I served on the Vanguard as a boy seaman in 1949 when she was serving as a training ship for young Midshipman from Dartmouth college based at Portland harbour. I remember a rumour that when she fired a full broadside it buckled a few plates on her starboard side, I don't think it split any part of the decks, however it was bad enough. Ernest H.
Hello Earnest.
My father was on Vanguard about that time, is it possible that you might have known him ?? he was a "Chippy" Frank Chope
Batstiger
29-11-2007, 11:42
Hello Throd welcome to the site.
I only ever went on the Vanguard once as part of a working party when she was in the reserve fleet. I remember standing in front of "A" turret and looking towards the bows. It was like looking uphill and it is only from this position that you realise the difference between the foc'sle of her as opposed to the KGV class.
Here are a couple of pictures of her, the first showing what seas she had to contend with taken in 1954.
If you look carefully you will be just able to make out her masts, funnels and top superstructure,
Bob.
Batstiger
29-11-2007, 16:19
I nearly forgot ! Here is a very informative website about the Vanguard.
http://battleshiphmsvanguard.homestead.com/
Bob.
Ernest H
06-12-2007, 00:32
Hi Alan B, Sorry late to reply, been away. The name Chope rings a bell, but remember there was quite a few crew on board at that time, if you had a picture of your dad at that time it might jolt my memory. Sorry I can't be of more help.
Ernest H
11-01-2008, 23:59
When serving aboard H.M.S Vanguard (1949-1950) I purchased a souvenir booklet of Vanguard on sale at the ships N.A.A.F.I shop which included photo's of the Royal cabins. I had this booklet for many years until it was ruined in a flood disaster. I know this will be a long shot, but is there anyone who has a copy that they would part with, or know anywhere where I might make further enquiries.
AlZictorini
12-01-2008, 11:05
Always a good search - try going onto e-bay and in the search type HMS Vanguard. You will be amazed at what memorabilia comes up.
Regards
AlZ
Ernest H
14-01-2008, 22:10
Hi, Thanks for the tip, Tried Ebay but nothing on there at present.
stewart mcloughlin
15-01-2008, 22:45
Ther's a hard back story book about her on Amazon at:-
http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=hms+vanguard&tag=yahhyd-21&index=stripbooks&ref=pd_sl_2m6mn29dlw_b
(1 copy left)
Have you tried a 'old shipmates' site? Navy News etc. or write to the current captain of the nuke sub if she's still about (old comrades association).
Stewart McLoughlin
Ernest H
16-01-2008, 15:33
Hi, Had a look at 'Amazon site' unfortunately the hard back copy of H.M.S Vanguard was out of print, but will try 'Old Shipmates' & 'Navy News' will probably put in an add and see what transpires. Thanks for your kind help.
I wonder what shipmates on here think about the Vanguard. I personally thought that she was a beautiful Ship. In 1952 I was on the Swiftsure and she was anchored close by us at Portland.(Played cricket for Swiftsure against her)
H.M.S.Vanguard was the last battleship constructed for the Royal Navy (and save for the French Jean Bart which was de-commissioned in 1961)) the last in the world.
Strictly speaking, Vanguard was obsolete even before she was commissioned in August 1946. Plans for her were first drawn up in 1939, to make use of her four 15" twin turrets which had been removed from the Courageous-class battlecruisers when they were converted to Aircraft carriers in the 1920s, by installing them, suitably modified, in a ship capable of 30 knots, and she was authorized in 1941.
She was remarkedly different from earlier British battleships, with a transom stern and considerable sheer forward, which made her a much better sea-boat than her predecessors. (And better all-round than the U.S.Navys Iowa; during heavy weather in a combined exercise in 1953. Vanguard was observed to roll through 30 degrees while Iowa rolled through 52 degrees.)
Vanguard was built by John Brown on the Clyde. She was decommissioned after only ten years in service, and scrapped in 1960
Batstiger
06-02-2008, 16:26
Stan, this is the third thread on the Vanguard, I suggest we merge threads.
Bob.
Sorry Bob. Missed the others .
Batstiger
06-02-2008, 22:36
I'll stick this link on to this thread as it makes good reading. Same name but the previous Vanguard.
http://www.gwpda.org/naval/vanfrank.htm
Bob.
I'll stick this link on to this thread as it makes good reading. Same name but the previous Vanguard.
http://www.gwpda.org/naval/vanfrank.htm
Bob.
Maybe a solution for this is to put dates behind the ship's name in the thread title.
John Brown
11-02-2008, 14:33
Going back to Stans original thread:
The last Battleship to be named Vanguard was undoubtably a handsome ship. However, I personally prefer the more rugged lines of the KG V class of which 'The Royal Yacht' was an improved version.
John
I wonder what shipmates on here think about the Vanguard. I personally thought that she was a beautiful Ship.
Hi Stan,
I have to agree with you about the lines of the Vanguard. My abiding memory of her was being alongside her in Plymouth, in late 1955. I was in HMS Ulysses. The Killick of the 'Boy-Seamens' mess was a Leading Club-Swinger, from Stoke, who decided the Vanguard's foredeck was the ideal place for morning PT.
I think it lasted about three days, when the Stokers complained about the noise. Apparently their mess was directly beneath the foredeck!
I did have chance to buy a beautiful monochrome watercolour of her, alongside in Pompie, when I was holidaying in the IOW, during the eighties. But I wasn't so rich then. (Comparatively) So I gave it the go-by. I could have stretched it and gone without beer on my holiday. I didn't and to this day I wish I'd forgone those pints!
Yes a fine ship and thanks for the information on her Stan.
Regards
John :)
Batstiger
13-02-2008, 10:22
On perusing the Search option I see we have four threads concerning the Vanguard. The busiest one at the time was this one:-
http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showthread.php?t=293&highlight=vanguard
There are various pictures here to view without having to re-post them.
Bob.
astraltrader
13-03-2008, 15:07
Just obtained this, that I thought might be of interest...
John Brown
13-03-2008, 15:17
Great picture Terry. Shows her transom stern a treat. Nice to see the old Queen in the background too!
John
Nice photo Terry.
Hard to imagine the Clyde ever being busy like that these days (with the possible exception of a dirty great aircraft carrier coming into the Gareloch yesterday, I grant you - see HMS Ark Royal thread on photo galleries). Comparatively very little in the way of ships these days, although we always have the permanently 'moored' sugar boat at the tail of the bank. It capsized in a storm back in the 70's I think and no-one has got around to shifting it as yet.
Still, nice to get a glimpse of what my local area was like back then - thanks for that. :)
astraltrader
13-03-2008, 16:21
A pleasure Kc. Sad to hear that the Clyde is so quiet these days - mind you with the current scaled down RN, where is it busy?
As you now I have posted some of the photo`s I took near Devonport between 1980-2000. There is`nt a fraction of the ships to be seen now...
ceylon220
28-06-2008, 08:25
I posted a pic of Gibralter dockyard and it shows VANGUARD alongside(aerial photo ,not very clear), I was wondering if this was the time when she was drydocked for some reason,anyone know about this?
jgrinnell
08-08-2008, 22:36
My Grandfather was 2iC when she ran aground In Portsmouth prior to scrapping! All the pilot's fault apparently!!
Regards
John
jgrinnell
09-08-2008, 00:26
Lost of picks of this beautiful ship at sea - any of her at the point of disposal. Sounds grim I know, but really curious to see how she went.
Jgrinnell,
here is a pic of her just about there at here very last berth.
cylla
jbryce1437
09-08-2008, 19:27
Not sure about heading for her last berth in that last pic. It looks like one of a series of postcards showing her leaving the Clyde in M ay 1946 for sea trials - she looks to be flying the white ensign, which she wouldnt have been when enroute to the scrapyard. Would welcome any larger versions of her run ashore at Portsea.
astraltrader
09-08-2008, 22:13
I have got a better one somewhere Jim - but until I can put my hand on it this is the best I can do mate...
jbryce1437
10-08-2008, 19:40
Many thanks Terry. Fancy looking out of your front room window to see that at the end of the path:D
dunmunro1
11-08-2008, 20:58
Hi Everybody
Can someone help me out with some information. I have read in a couple of books that because the Vanguard was so sea worthy for a battleship she could be driven so fast in very rough weather that she could strain herself. To this end a speed restriction when sailing through heavy seas was applied. Is there any truth in this?
Thanks in advance
Throd
All ships, including BBs, will suffer some degree of structural damage by steaming at high speed in heavy weather. In wartime, when circumstances warrant it, this is acceptable, but in a peacetime navy with heavy budgetary restrictions it is not, and this was the reason that Vanguard may have had speed restrictions placed upon her, in heavy weather, but doubtless other allied navies placed restrictions on their BBs, to prevent damage. The Iowa class were particularly poor in heavy weather, and attempting to run them at high speed in heavy weather would have caused major problems forward due to a lack of buoyancy in the bow, and a lack of sheer forward.
David Shipton
12-08-2008, 10:51
When I was in Herald one of our droggies, a young Welsh Lt. had lived in the house that was rammed by Vanguard, as a student. It was some sort of official residence but can't remember what now. We went there one day for him to collect some things he'd left in the house and of course I was facinated by the photographs of the incident which they had hanging on the walls. As has been pointed out a handy stop for a pint of HSB in the Still and West. I wonder if the towing crew put in for survivors' leave!
Batstiger
12-08-2008, 12:20
David, it's a pity whoever lived in the official residence didn't have his wits about him and grab hold of a camera, dash outside and take as many pictures as possible. I am sure he could have made a few bob for himself and left us with a better Photographic history of the event.
Bob.
When I was in Herald one of our droggies, a young Welsh Lt. had lived in the house that was rammed by Vanguard, as a student. It was some sort of official residence but can't remember what now. We went there one day for him to collect some things he'd left in the house and of course I was facinated by the photographs of the incident which they had hanging on the walls. As has been pointed out a handy stop for a pint of HSB in the Still and West. I wonder if the towing crew put in for survivors' leave!
And I shall be in the Still & West on Saturday as well enjoying a pint of HSB (Horndean Special Bitter) but I am told since the Old Major died and the brewery sold out to a conglomorate brewery things just 'aint the same!
ChalkyWhite
13-08-2008, 20:24
As a topic and something else to remember of those far off days besides the beauty of some ships and the weaponry some carried.
Does anyone remember the Fleet Regatta in Scapa Flow in June 1954 when HMS Vanguard was attacked (by who knows who!!) and the port side of this mighty ship was red leaded with paint bombs.
I recall there was quite a fuss!
ChalkyWhite
14-08-2008, 09:23
Lost of picks of this beautiful ship at sea - any of her at the point of disposal. Sounds grim I know, but really curious to see how she went.
Reference your asking for photos of HMS Vanguards last few months you might like to look at ' To Sail No More ' Parts 1 and 4 which are available from Maritime Books, Lodge Hill, Liskeard, Cornwall. Tel: 01579 343663. There are are whole series of photos in these two books which will make you weep when you see the demise of this great ship which should have been preserved for the nation, as should one of the KG 5's, especially Duke of York.
However also in Part 2 of this series of books there is an excellent photo of her going aground at Portsmouth but showing the Port side. Another photo in Part 2 shows a stern view having arrived at Faslane for breaking up.
Chalky
ChalkyWhite
16-08-2008, 09:56
Hello Bob,
The photo you have shown of HMS Vanguard in rough weather brought back a few memories. This photo was probably taken off Cape Wrath at a time when it was extremely rough.This was around May-June of 1954 as the Home Fleet has a Regatta in Scapa Flow in June. I was a Boy Seaman on board HMS Barrosa and I have in my memory an identical view such as this when Barrosa was on the port side of a screen which consisted of all the 4th Destroyer Squadron of Agincourt, Aisne, Corruna and Barrosa. Indeed your photo could even have been taken from Barrosa!
I'm pretty certain that Vanguard had a full calibre shoot at Cape Wrath at that time, which is probably why the ships were there in the first place, but I'm not 100% certain of that. Perhaps other viewers might have better recall than me of that!
Isn't it amazing what memories are stirred by looking at a photograph.
Chalky White
Batstiger
16-08-2008, 10:18
As you say Chalky photographs do bring back loads of memories. If I remember correctly that particular photograph was taken during a big exercise. "Mariner" seems to spring to mind. I have a couple more photies from that exercise which I will put on this thread if I can find them. They aren't of the Vanguard though.
Cheers, Bob.
Batstiger
16-08-2008, 10:50
Here are those other pictures from the same exercise. Around that era there was an exercise Mainbrace as well and I am not sure which one the whole lot come from.
I think the best one is of the RFA Olna.
By the way the one of the Scorpion in calmer waters is one I took in the med in 1955/6.
Cheers Bob.
Batstiger
16-08-2008, 10:53
Sorry I forgot the pictures, silly old fool that I am.
ChalkyWhite
16-08-2008, 16:40
Hello Bob,
Excercise Mainbrace took place in September 1952 whilst Excercise Mariner took place in September 1953 in the Denmark Straights with,Vanguard, Eagle, Swiftsure, and also the USS Iowa, and not forgetting the 4th Destroyer Squadron as per previous contribution to this subject. Some aspects of this excercise I can recall as if it were yesterday partly I suspect because as a Boy Seaman I was scared stiff at the sight of ships almost performing loop the loops. Certainly there were sights of ships doing things, including Vanguard,which I had no idea were possible!! There were also two other minor excercises in Northern waters at this time, Dawn Haze and Morning Mist which the Barrosa certainly took part in but I have no recollection of just what they were. They were certainly not on the scale of Mainbrace as that was more of a major Nato excercise.
The 2 photos of Scorpion were quite famous at the time and they were also taken during that same Excercise Mariner.
It must have been before this excercise that the Home Fleet were at Scapa Flow for the Fleet Regatta and a quick Paint Ship no doubt.
My great friend Tim Lewin put me onto this web site and I'm loving it!
Chalky White
batstiger,
your third piccy .....am i seeing things ,or could it be SCORPION asdic dome just visible.
cylla
tonclass
16-08-2008, 17:14
Bob,
here's one of your pix minus the intrusive cables.
Batstiger
16-08-2008, 20:30
Those wires belong to the Battleaxe Rik.
Cylla I used to be a ping bosun and if I remember correctly the Asdic dome was a little further aft along the keel. They wouldn't have had it down in any case in that sea owing to the possible damage.
Cheers, Bob.
David Shipton
18-08-2008, 14:28
And I shall be in the Still & West on Saturday as well enjoying a pint of HSB (Horndean Special Bitter) but I am told since the Old Major died and the brewery sold out to a conglomorate brewery things just 'aint the same!
Hope you enjoyed it anyway Melv. I used to love a couple of pints of the stuff myself but it did have unfortunate side effects! :D
Chris Howat
28-08-2008, 07:29
Here is a picture of the sad Vanguard at Cairn Ryan which I took in 1960
astraltrader
28-08-2008, 11:26
Thanks for that Chris.
Here is a picture of Vanguard in happier days - when gainfully employed as a Royal Yacht back in 1947!
I have an amusing story somewhere from the pages of "The Naval Review" concerning "Vanguard's" Chief Petty Officers and the Commander who gave them a right-dressing down in public - I will hunt it down and delete the expletives. :D
Simon
ChalkyWhite
28-08-2008, 14:34
Thanks for that Chris.
Here is a picture of Vanguard in happier days - when gainfully employed as a Royal Yacht back in 1947!
Hello Terry,
Did you submit this photograph with tongue in cheek expecting a response?
I cannot believe that this photograph of HMS Vanguard is a genuine shot of the ship whilst on the Royal Cruise to South Africa. Just look at the state of the ships side, it's filthy with what looks like oil spills, etc! Can you imagine that state of affairs being allowed whilst as a Royal Yacht it's enough to make any Commander,or First Lieutenant to have an apolectic fit.
Further the ship, as far as I am aware, did not sail anywhere during the cruise, without the King & Queen being onboard. In that case the Royal Standard would have been flown whereas in this photo, all one can see is what appears to be the Church pennant.
The ship looks to me as if it is entering harbour with the cable party ready and I'd put a couple of quid on the fact that the ship is about to anchor at somewhere like Scapa Flow.(after Excercise Mainbrace for example when the ship WOULD have been in this condition). As a young lad I spent hours over the side sprucing a ship up just to enter harbour and this photo beggars belief that it is really of the Royal Cruise although obviously of Vanguard.
I'm sure I can't be the only observer with doubts regarding the caption on this photograph, it's rather like believing everything one reads in the newspapers. Who is the set accredited to? Is it by chance Abrahams of Plymouth?
I'll be interested if others agree, or maybe even disagree, with me. What would be interesting is if someone had the actual photo and could date it.
All the Best Terry,your input to this web site is much to be admired,
Chalky White
astraltrader
28-08-2008, 14:46
I will be honest Chalky - it was just one of thousands of postcards and photo`s I own, that just caught my eye whilst looking for something else.
On close inspection I can see that you are right and it is obviously a lash-up/montage put together by the postcard company to cash in on the Royal tour!
I note that it is number 5 of a set.
Still not a bad picture though.
I am glad my contribution is appreciated!
CHALKY, i will second that ,i spent many a hour over the side ,washing and painting up the ships side on a paint stage,,ready for some toff, ....and yes looking at VANGUARDS side needs some thing to be desired.
cylla
astraltrader
03-09-2008, 14:41
I thought this schematic plan of Vanguard might prove to be of interest for some of you.
It clearly shows just how large and complex the ship was...
astraltrader
03-09-2008, 22:04
Well good to see it was popular enough for many of you to have downloaded a copy - which is fine.
astraltrader
25-09-2008, 20:43
I just purchased this photograph which I have especially removed from the frame so that I could scan it in for you people to see.:)
That's a very nice angle on that photo Terry, thanks for sharing it on the forum. :)
astraltrader
25-09-2008, 23:57
Thanks a lot Kc - much appreciated - not least because it took the best part of half an hour to carefully get it out of the frame and back in again!
I do have about 40 framed photographs of ships in the attic - some of which are very good.
When I pluck up courage I will perform the same operation on the best of them!!
tonclass
26-09-2008, 01:03
Go for it, Terry !! You know we all can't wait to see what you've got stashed away !!!!!!
Batstiger
26-09-2008, 11:06
Your doing a great job as usual Terry.
Is the sky burnt out of that picture or is it my imagination?
Bob.
jbryce1437
26-09-2008, 19:50
Great photo Terry;)
astraltrader
26-09-2008, 20:19
Thanks guys, much appreciated.
Not sure about the sky, Bob.
joseph bonnici
07-10-2008, 08:33
one of my favourites
Batstiger
07-10-2008, 10:23
Terrific picture Joseph, I haven't seen this one before!
Cheers, Bob.
joseph bonnici
07-10-2008, 10:43
iv e got a lot more pics. i don t know where are some of them,been hiding for ab0ut 50 years. thanks for your response BOB. bye Joseph
alanbenn
07-10-2008, 11:50
Joseph, terrific photo of Vanguard, thank you for posting it, looking forward to seeing others you have. I'm sure they will be appreciated by the members.
Regards
Alan
joseph bonnici
07-10-2008, 12:07
thanks Alan..i downloaded a few in (my pics) there s more to come. i saw the badges this morning, some of them i never saw. thanks again JOSEPH
astraltrader
07-10-2008, 15:18
Good work Joseph. Much appreciated - a really good picture of Vanguard.:)
battlestar
08-10-2008, 13:25
G'Day All
These images of H.M.S.Vanguard are from former RN Sailor/Diver Bill Snook who died in 2005. Bill was the Standard Bearer for the Royal Navy Association here in Western Australia, and a Fine Gentleman. Before Bill became an RN Diver, he was a crewmember of Vanguard in the late 1940's (So his son tells me). When he died his son Tony had me scan his dad's stuff, these two images were there.
Even with the recommissioning of the Iowa class battleships in the 1980's, I've always considered Vanguard to be the finest battleship ever built, with features that have been used in warship design for the past 60+ years.
Enjoy the pics :)
To step aboard Vanguard my first sea going ship was a fantastic experiennce.The white wooden decks and impressive guns and turrets. She was very modern, the catering was dinning rooms with the meals fetched from the serveries. There was an excellent laundry, hand in your dhobying and collect the next morning , washed and pressed. Then a big shock,next draft Wrangler , canteen messing & a dhoby bucket.:):):mad::mad:
oldsalt,
i just bet you would have wished you could have WANGLED your way out of that last draft........but there again i bet it made you REALLY appreciate the VANGUARD.
CYLLA
It was a nasty shock, the Captain was a Lt. Cdr. he used to ride his horse into Rosyth Dockyard and tie it up to the bottom of the gangway.:D:D:D:confused::confused:
An inglorious end to a magnificent ship.Rob T
Batstiger
22-10-2008, 20:20
Very similar to your picture Terry.
Bob.
astraltrader
22-10-2008, 21:14
Absolutely Bob - must have been taken at the same time...
Three more photos of Vanguard which will be of interest. Firing a salvo and another under tow close to the QE. Rob T
This is Vanguard, I was in her, at Cowes regetta in 1950, with Queen Elizabeth outward bound from Southampton. I think Queen Mary also passed close inbound for Sothampton.:):)
Batstiger
27-10-2008, 13:30
That is a great picture, have you a larger scan of it?
Bob.
joseph bonnici
27-10-2008, 13:56
how about this size Bob
Reading this thread & a pic of the new Vanguard, reminds me that ships names are now being re-used. For instance Vanguard, Vigilant, Unicorn, Tyne & Ark Royal, I served in each of those ships, they were very different to the ships now bearing the names.
tim lewin
08-11-2008, 19:49
were you in Vigilant during her time in the Dartmouth Training Sqn 1960-62?
tim
I was a Mechanician 1st class in Vigilant from Aug.59 to Feb.61, if you know me please send me a PM.
A very sad picture, the end of Vanguard.
Brian Baptist
16-11-2008, 11:11
Looking for friend on HMS Vanguard 1952
Brian Baptist on HMS Newcastle (Royal Marines)
Derek Dicker
17-11-2008, 14:24
I was at sea on the type 15 Ulysses, when we were passed by the Vanguard being towed to the knackers yard, the reason we were overhauled is that we were limping back to Gus on one screw having hit a submerged rock off the channel Isles.
upspirits
17-11-2008, 15:47
Hi Stan,
I have to agree with you about the lines of the Vanguard. My abiding memory of her was being alongside her in Plymouth, in late 1955. I was in HMS Ulysses. The Killick of the 'Boy-Seamens' mess was a Leading Club-Swinger, from Stoke, who decided the Vanguard's foredeck was the ideal place for morning PT.
I think it lasted about three days, when the Stokers complained about the noise. Apparently their mess was directly beneath the foredeck!
I did have chance to buy a beautiful monochrome watercolour of her, alongside in Pompie, when I was holidaying in the IOW, during the eighties. But I wasn't so rich then. (Comparatively) So I gave it the go-by. I could have stretched it and gone without beer on my holiday. I didn't and to this day I wish I'd forgone those pints!
Yes a fine ship and thanks for the information on her Stan.
Regards
John :)
Hi John...was interested to read your comments about the Vanguard, I was on board for a few months involved in a stores inventory prior to her going into mothballs. The link is that I left the Vangaurd at that time to join the Urania...sister ship to the Ulysees...did you do the 'Med' trip through '55/56? remember Urania, Ursa and Undine as the 6th frigate squadron...later known as the Mediterranean yacht club...mmm...musn't go there!!!The Vanguard was a great ship, I was impressed by her for'd gun turrets...the poor old 'trainer' was swung through an incredible arc in order to train/load the guns, whilst strapped in the most uncomfortable metal seat...no padding, and motoring at high speed to carry out the proceedure....upspirits
hucks216
05-12-2008, 15:35
Here are two photos of the Vanguard from my dads photo album taken during his time on HMS Swiftsure (1950)
Batstiger
05-12-2008, 16:36
Two great pictures Hucks, much appreciated by all.
Bob.
kookaburra
16-12-2008, 15:58
I was doing some pleasure browsing - as I often do on the various Vanguard/KGV-Class threads, and decided to express a thought that so often occurs to me.
Why were not just one of the great WW11 battleships preserved ? I know the immediate postwar years were hard, and I don't know anything about the costs of such a proposal, but I regard it as crime that not one of these peak symbols of the majesty of the RN could have been saved for this and future generations.
Surely it was debated. Conversely, I'm often astounded at just how many capital ships have been preserved in the U.S. - it sometimes seem that almost every State has one, surrounded by a flotilla of smaller ships. In fact it often feels that they have a surfeit of them - almost too many.
HMS Victory, of the days of sail, is probably - no, is - the finest ship museum in the world. Belfast is also a fine museum ship ( berthed on the wrong side of the river, btw), but one can't help having a feeling that we were robbed of the ultimate in a big gun capital ship.
HMS Vanguard - marvellous looking vessel that she was - would NOT actually have been first on my wish list of the battleship that might and should have been preserved. That would be...let's see.
First choice: one of ... KGV, DoY, Howe or Anson, representing the peak design of RN battleships to see war service, a memorial to their lost sister ship and its men, and by extension all who served in the RN in war.
Second choice: one of ...Warspite (because of her unparralled battle record spanning both World Wars, surely the most famous RN battleship of the 20th Century; or Renown, because of her war record, combined with her famous elegance and use as Royal transport around the world so often. What a wonderful picture/photo galleries her wardrooms could have made.
Third choice: Vanguard, the largest and most imposing of all, but I place her down my list simply because she missed the war, and always carried that whole 'superannuated' feeling about her. Mighty, but ever a ship somewhat out of her time, and therefore not as symbolic as the others IMHO.
I would like to hear what, if any preservation debates, revolved around these ships as they were going out of service. There must have been some, surely. K.
Edit: Just realized this should have gone into a museum ships thread I think I saw somewhere. It started out as a specific thought about the preservation of Vanguard, and wandered onto the more general preservation topic. Anyway, move it if you wish, and I'll edit the opening sentence as appropriate.
There is a very interesting configuration between the earlier and later Vangard. The former had one turret fore and aft with another pair mounted on the side. Would that account for the increased stability due to the weight distribution being lower and concentrated more centrally? Obviously, this design was phased out in favor of the two turrets for and aft due to the efficiency of getting all guns on target, but this ability came at a price. The evolution of these ships included bold experiments until one Navy looked just like the other and the differences were in the size of the guns, the quality of the targeting mechanisms and the efficiency of the crews. Apparently, sea worthiness was less important than the tonage you could land on the target, accurately in the least amount of time. I cannot imagine not being sea sick with a role of 52 degrees:eek:.
Thanks for such interesting pictures. :)
Fred Morsheimer
astraltrader
30-12-2008, 21:21
I have been requested to gather information on any warships that sailed with Vanguard either to or from South Africa in the 1947 royal tour.
The old boy who has indirectly asked for this information recalls being on HMS Diadem and can recall seeing as well as Vanguard - the destroyers St Kitts, St James and the carrier Implacable. He seemed to think there was a "convoy" of ships with Vanguard.
Other than Triumph who escorted Vanguard part of the way home, I can find no mention of Diadem, or any of the others being there.
Anyone shed any light please?
According to contemporary newspaper reports, the escort changed at several times.
Vanguard was initially escorted out of the Channel by the Duke of York, Nelson, Cleopatra, Diadem, Rotherham, Orwell, Offa, Obedient and Opportune.
The passage south to Sierra Leone was in the company of Implacable, St James and St Kitts, with Cleopatra and Diadem.
At Freetown, the Implacable, St Kitts and the two cruisers departed, and were replaced by the cruiser Nigeria and the St James remained; the oiler Brown Ranger was briefly in company for a RAS.
On the return journey, Nigeria was replaced at Sierra Leone by the Triumph and Raider, and then Cleopatra and Diadem joined later.
Various foreign warships were also in company, usually only briefly; these included the French battleship Richelieu
astraltrader
31-12-2008, 14:19
Excellent Navalis - that was just the info I was looking for!
VMT.
Hi Guys
Does anyone have a photo of the six barreled Bofors guns as fitted to HMS Vanguard?
TIA
Gerry McGinty
tjstoneman
14-03-2009, 21:31
Try the Vickers Photographic Archive (http://www.dockmuseum.org.uk/archive/index.asp) - go to "Armaments", "Naval Gun" and search for "Bofors" - there are a dozen or so photos there.
Tim
Hi Tim
Thanks for your help! Isn't that a smashing site! One that I did not know of.
Very best regards
Gerry
I know this may be a long shot but I am looking for anyone who may have known my Dad Wally Collinson who was a Stoker PO on the above C1950's. My only recollection is attending a Christmas party on board while she was in Portsmouth - this must have been 1953-1954 ish. I can't remember any names of other ships he served on except that at least was a mine sweeper.
I am going to attempt to upload a photo.
Any leads would be appreciated.
S
http://battleshiphmsvanguard.homestead.com/
If you haven't yet seen this at your other post...our Dave suggests you sign their guest book or try to get in touch with site owner.
Hope your search is successful,
Regards,
Bee
Thanks Bee. You just beat me to it. Placing my answer here.
Just thought I'd try to help out Dave :)
Cheers,
Bee
Here is a picture of the sad Vanguard at Cairn Ryan which I took in 1960
this is faslane scrapyard where she was broken up
chewitt13
05-10-2009, 12:14
why is there so few pictures of Vanguard Britains last battleship ,think it would have been 1000,s of photos:confused:
The Vanguard was my first sea going ship, although I did'nt realise it at the time , she was so modern. The messing arrangements were dining spaces to which the food was brought, by the cooks of the mess. The food was placed on plates by the servery & carried to the tables in wire carrying frames, I think there were 8 plates in each carrier. No choice of course , later experience showed me the food was pretty good. In the starboard waist was a laundry, we were allowed a certain amount of laundry once a week.The laundry went in during the afternoon & was ready for collection the next day.I recall when I joined the ship at Portland, stepping onto the fo'cstle, seeing the barrels of those 15" guns, I kid you not, I was impressed, awed even, a boy hood dream come true. The illusion of a modern RN was completely shattered by my next draft , Wrangler (pre conversion) canteen messing & did'nt she roll & wallow in seas the Vanguard would have ploughed through. :eek::eek::):(
sugarfree
05-10-2009, 17:45
I have no memories of the ship herself, but I have seen bits of her! The Whole Body Contamination Monitor at the Defence Radiological Protection Service in the Institute of Naval Medicine at Alverstoke is shielded by steel from HMS Vanguard. It was the only steel from the pre-nuclear age that was available. Being largely free of background radiation the steel is a good shield for sensitive monitoring equipment. The spare steel not used in the building of the monitor was left in the long grass at INM and may still be there if it hasn't rusted away.
Thanks for that Chris.
Here is a picture of Vanguard in happier days - when gainfully employed as a Royal Yacht back in 1947!
The ship has its port anchor down and is flying a flag on its jackstaff. This means it is not under weigh. In fact, the discharge from the forward firemain pump indicates the ship is moving slightly astern; or there is a very fast current running. Generally it looks as though its just arrived from a bit of roughers!
astraltrader
05-10-2009, 20:54
Chewitt - if you had either entered Vanguard in our search facility at the top of the page or gone to our Photo-Galleries you could have found many pictures of her.
I have put a link to the photogallery featuring her below...
http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2142&highlight=VANGUARD
tonclass
05-10-2009, 23:24
Launch of HMS VANGUARD
fleetchief
06-10-2009, 03:30
Lost of picks of this beautiful ship at sea - any of her at the point of disposal. Sounds grim I know, but really curious to see how she went.
I was on the Adamant, in Faslane (1960), which was berthed on half of a long jetty parallel with the shore. The other half was used by the Ship Breakers. I remember watching, after Vanguard had arrived, as they took her apart layer by layer. A dismal sight.
Adamant's crew did various night time commando raids on her, to help the breakers by relieving surplus top weight. Such heavy items as refrigerators, toasters and anything that could be unbolted and was useful in a mess. The breaker created hell of a stink and wanted it all back, "I paid for it, it's mine". Being as everything was 115V and UK was 230V (except in some backward parts of Scotland where they still used Direct Current) what use would it have been. Needless to say, we all pleaded innocence and never did return the stuff. The old man turned a blind eye to our appropriations.
Ed
fleetchief
06-10-2009, 03:37
CHALKY, i will second that ,i spent many a hour over the side ,washing and painting up the ships side on a paint stage,,ready for some toff, ....and yes looking at VANGUARDS side needs some thing to be desired.
cylla
Though, as a tiffy, I never personally had to do it, I can well remember on one of my ships escorting the Britannia. While steaming along, sailors were hung overboard to "touch up" the ship's side that was hidden from the Royal Yacht. When that side was finished, we changed station to be on her other side so they could do the other side. All done while underway, albeit on a nice warm day and a calm sea.
Ed
Batstiger
06-10-2009, 10:45
Just think of the pictures you could have supplied us all with Ed had you got a camera in those days! I'm sure you could have made a fortune out of them.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing!
Bob.
fleetchief
07-10-2009, 22:11
Just think of the pictures you could have supplied us all with Ed had you got a camera in those days! I'm sure you could have made a fortune out of them.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing!
Bob.
Hi Bob,
Didn't think of it at the time. Basically they took off the turrets first, and then cut away a deck at a time, which of course, caused her to ride higher out of the water. I did hear, at the time, that they flogged all the steel to Gillette, to make razor blades, because it was such a high quality steel.
Ed
I'm sure this has been said before, there is a lot of info. & many photos in the book, HMS Vanguard, 1944-1960, Britains Last Battleship, by Neil McCart. My copy was obtained from , Maritime Books, Lodge Hill, Liskeard, Cornwall, PL14 4EL. it's real value for money.
Whilst I don't have Neil McCart's 'Vanguard' book, I do have four other books by him on various ships/classes and can verifty Keith's comment about the amount of info/pix in the books. I have found them invaluable in aiding my research into my late Dad's RN career. I therefore have no problem in recommending any book by Neil McCart to anyone. I wonder if he, Neil McCart that is, will send me a thankyou note.....................!!!!
Mik
Hi,
Would anyone have a side elevation drawing of HMS Vanguard (Battleship). One that would print out about 1ft long (A4 size paper) would be great. Need it to illustrate the dressing-flag pattern worn by her in 1947.
Thanks in advance
BC
Dave Hutson
15-11-2009, 09:45
I think if you trot over to the Communicators Only thread and ask Derek and Terry they will answer that question. A distant memory tells me that there was a standard sequence for dressing lines that was followed by all ships - but - but - but - I could be wrong :(
Dave H
Batstiger
27-11-2009, 19:27
She would have made a great museum piece don't you think?
Bob.
Yup absolutle, last Big gun ship of the RN, or failing that one of the KGV's which were scrapped just 3 years before.
dont get me started on the subject of museums ships in this country (and lack there-of) heh
astraltrader
27-11-2009, 22:24
I think the scandalous failure to preserve Vanguard and/or Warspite has been raised on at least 5 different threads in the forum!!!
Bruce - I dont know if you can do anything with any of these???
Batstiger
27-11-2009, 22:32
Now there's a challenge Bruce, I'm sure you will be doing us all a great favour if you could.
Bob.
Hi All
Terry: Thanks for the drawings - I'm sure one will do nicely - Now to choose!
Dave: I have a 1952 Dress Line diagram someone kindly sent me but haven't located an "Official" one between 1918 and 1948.
Bob: As soon as I can I will post a copy of my 1947 Vanguard dressed as she appeared in Feb 1947 at the start of the Royal Tour of South Africa. I've used photos to check the flags which is a bit of a drawn out process but I think it is pretty accurate. (Finding the photos was the most difficult task.)
Thanks everyone,
Cheers
Bruce
OK here's two diagrams of Vanguard dressed 1947 using different
drawings. Also the Official 1952 diagram.
Hope they are of use to someone.
Cheers
Bruce
Don Boyer
28-11-2009, 04:28
In response to throd, I to had read somewhere that Vanguard was an exceptionally fine seaboat, better in North Atlantic waves than an Iowa or North Carolina with their fine bows. Vanguard certainly had the powerplant to drive her hard enough in a head sea to be damaging, but the same can be said of the Iowa's, whose bow had a tendency to "flex" in heavy head seas, which Vanguard did not.
There well may have been restrictions on the knots she was allowed in heavy weather. One of my references has a section on this subject, but I can't find it, as usual...:)
astraltrader
28-11-2009, 10:43
Well executed Bruce - a great job!
In response to throd, I to had read somewhere that Vanguard was an exceptionally fine seaboat, better in North Atlantic waves than an Iowa or North Carolina with their fine bows. Vanguard certainly had the powerplant to drive her hard enough in a head sea to be damaging, but the same can be said of the Iowa's, whose bow had a tendency to "flex" in heavy head seas, which Vanguard did not.
There well may have been restrictions on the knots she was allowed in heavy weather. One of my references has a section on this subject, but I can't find it, as usual...:)
I do know that we were heading north in the Irish sea when we transferred some stores to a destroyer, it was pretty choppy, the crew on deck on the destroyer were wearing oilskins, I was on the fo'csle of the Vanguard in half blues & did'nt get splashed.
Batstiger
28-11-2009, 14:13
I think you would have worn your oilskin here Keith.
Bob.
Batstiger
28-11-2009, 14:16
And maybe here also.
Bob..
Batstiger
08-01-2010, 21:52
A couple more pictures of the demise of the Vanguard.
Bob.
Here's how the Times reported it
designeraccd
08-01-2010, 23:14
No doubt, despite her lack of a combat record, that cutting Vanguard up was a waste....at least as far as we shiplovers are concerned. She was far and away the best looking battleship the RN ever had, and at least on paper the best all around combination of offensive weapons (guns) and defensive "sytems" the RN ever put to sea. An extremely handsome design! DFO ;)
I agree.
It should have been preserved
harry.gibbon
08-01-2010, 23:47
As a second best option ... she is!!! ... by means of this Forum thankfully.
Little h
steve roberts
09-01-2010, 09:18
I agree with all. She should have been saved.She was alooker thats for sure.But she was a sod to get around,due to her damage control aimed construction ei relatively un-pierced bulkheads etc.But thats life. You will all be pleased to know that her armour plating is still in use today as sheilding for X-Ray and Bodyscaners.And I believe one of her PBX Telephone exchanges is still in use by MOD up in the Faslane Area. Regards Steve.:)
Hi all
My Dad served in HMS Vanguard around the early 1950's. He was a Petty (or Chief) Officer Stoker - Wally Collinson.
I have posted a piccy in case anybody might recognise him I would love to contact anyone who knew him.
I can remember going to a Christmas party on board when I was about 6 - which would make it around 1952. The date on the back of the photo I have posted is hard to make out but I think it is Jan 1953.
Sally
Hi Sally,
Good looking photo of your Dad. :) Have you seen this site with pictures and other bits of information about HMS Vanguard?
http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/vanguard.htm
(The site is connected with this forum, I believe.)
Also, this web site that Bob, posted earlier in this thread...has heaps of information and possible leads to men who may have known your father:
http://battleshiphmsvanguard.homestead.com/
Hope you eventually get to find someone who knew your father.
Regards,
Bee
Thanks Bee and everybody else who offered information.
I will give the links a try. Yes, he was handsome wasn't he?
Jane Chesterman
25-06-2010, 12:30
Hello,
My father served on the HMS Vanguard in approx 1947.
I am trying very hard to purchase the Neil McCart book of the HMS Vanguard but cannot find a copy anywhere (other than Amazon at £144). Does anyone know where I can get a copy for him for his 80th Birthday this August please.
I would really appreciate your help.
His name is Joseph Claude Chesterman and lives in the West Midlands.
My email is : jcdl22883@blueyonder.co.uk
Thank you .... Jane Chesterman
clevewyn
25-06-2010, 12:39
Scroll down until you come to it.
http://www.fanpublications.co.uk/
Jane Chesterman
25-06-2010, 14:55
Hello,
Thank you for that information but I have been in touch with them and they are not re-printing at the moment.
I found someone who supplies the libraries but they won't sell me a copy even though they are going to supply my local library with one ... silly eh?
I have also tried many book shops that have second hand books and still no luck. Just hoping someone on here may have a copy to sell before end July.
Jane
clevewyn
25-06-2010, 16:01
Best of luck to you with your quest, in the meantime I`ll keep an eye open for it.
The book you want is "HMS Vanguard 1944-1960, Britain's Last Battleship" by Neil McCart. I obtained my copy from Maritime Books, Liskeard, PL14 4EL or try their website, www.navybooks.com I cannot remember how much the book was but it was probably in the £15 -£20 range. It's a great book with a lot of pictures, many show crew members. You will get much info from this book.
VirtualF
25-06-2010, 18:19
The book you want is "HMS Vanguard 1944-1960, Britain's Last Battleship" by Neil McCart. I obtained my copy from Maritime Books, Liskeard, PL14 4EL or try their website, www.navybooks.com I cannot remember how much the book was but it was probably in the £15 -£20 range. It's a great book with a lot of pictures, many show crew members. You will get much info from this book.
You were lucky! They hadnt got any any so I ordered it from Amazon......Cost me £50! My wife's face was a picture!
On a slightly different note,is it true that towards the end not all of Vanguards main turrets were actually capable of operation and that she was known as "Guard van" as she spent so much time in reserve.Its a real pity that she isnt berthed by the Victory.HMS Belfast is a fine ship but Vanguard would have been something else.
Matt
Dreadnought
25-06-2010, 20:10
Not the best quality photos, but nices view that I thought they were still worthy of posting.
Aerial view .. no date or location, and one of her laid up with King George V before going to the breakers.
Photographs from Reuters cpoies in my personal collection
Clive, although I have no details on your picture 1 above, I can add some information about picture 2, which shows VANGUARD alongside HOWE on the Imperieuse Moorings at Devonport, sometime between 5 March and 18 October 1956. The photograph is part of a larger original which also shows the carrier UNICORN, the repair ship ALAUNIA and part of a Dido class cruiser (probably EURYALUS) on adjacent Devonport Trot moorings.
A fine sight for river cruising tourists of the day!
Regards .....Paul
Dreadnought
26-06-2010, 07:49
Thanks for that Paul, I must admit I didn't check it out, just relied on the caption from my original source. I will amend my records accordingly.
1956 - so they are not laid up for breaking? Vanguard arrived Faslane for breaking up in August 1960. Howe arrived at Wards, Inverkeithing for break up in July 1958.
Would love to see the larger picture to which you refer.
Cheers
alanandbren
26-06-2010, 09:08
Clive, although I have no details on your picture 1 above, I can add some information about picture 2, which shows VANGUARD alongside HOWE on the Imperieuse Moorings at Devonport, sometime between 5 March and 18 October 1956. The photograph is part of a larger original which also shows the carrier UNICORN, the repair ship ALAUNIA and part of a Dido class cruiser (probably EURYALUS) on adjacent Devonport Trot moorings.
A fine sight for river cruising tourists of the day!
Regards .....Paul
I totally agree Paul, as you can see, Vanguard is still in commission. The Jack and the ensign are hoisted.
Alan
Vanguard, Alaunia, Unicorn, all my old ships, I must be getting near "use before" date. :eek::eek::)
Re: Clive, Alan and Keith's above posts.
Thanks all for your comments and observations following my post 144.
Clive, I do have a copy of the original print showing all of the ships, and would have automatically uploaded it if I was sure that there were no copyright issues. Unfortunately however, right now, I cannot ascertain whether its under copyright to a particular newspaper that has previously denied me permission to use any photo I've bought from them over the years, on this forum. I fully intend to try to get them to change their minds in the coming months but obviously don't want to do anything to upset them and jeopardise my position at this time. I'm therefore sorry I cannot oblige at the moment.
Regards.......Paul
franknewone@sky.com
16-08-2011, 13:14
Do any of you old Matlots on the Vanguard 1952/1954 remember a few opp's of mine on the Vanguard. Viz Len Prendergast, Les Houchin, Reg Moon. like to hear from you if you do,
Frank Clifton
Here's a couple of pics (taken from slides) of VANGUARD in early 1960 before paying off.
They were taken by a friend who was the last Padre on her (and this was his first naval posting!).
Also attaced are 3 pics from a set I obtained showing VANGUARD leaving the builders yard for the first time on 2 May 1946. The others in the set are all close-ups of various parts of the superstructure, so have not posted them.
Hope they are of interest
Regards
Steve
Clive 58
17-09-2011, 16:44
I really like pic 3 above (post 150). It's a great photo of such a busy scene.
Thanks for posting all of them.
Here's some pics not yet posted in this thread. I am at present making a 3D model of her hence some of the plans. Hope the photos are of interest to some.
For detailed photos of her scrapping you really need "To Sail No More, part 7".
Some fuel for thought.....
quote from D K Brown "Nelson to Vanguard"
"A personal view
Because of her 'second-hand' guns Vanguard is often seen as a second rate ship. However, she was much superior to King George V; compared with Iowa, her 15in shells should have had little difficulty in penetrating the thin belt of inferior armour. On the other hand the heavy US shells would have caused much damage. Much would depend on who got the first hits; Vanguard could range to 36,500yds and its unlikely that Iowa could hit at greater ranges. I would even have given her a good chance against the much larger Yamato."
DK Brown was the Deputy Chief Naval Architect and retired in 1988
The transom stern gave her 1/3kt and improved stability.
In July 1942 it was proposed to convert her into an aircraft carrier along with the RMS Queen Elizabeth
regards Collin
Sorry the plans haven't come out on this post.
The plans if anyone wants them. They consist of profile and lines aft and lines forward.
regards Collin
Stepping onboard from the foc'sle gangway onto a spotless wooden deck over shadowed by the for'd turret was an awesome experience.
Batstiger
19-09-2011, 15:29
Here's a couple of pics (taken from slides) of VANGUARD in early 1960 before paying off.
They were taken by a friend who was the last Padre on her (and this was his first naval posting!).
Also attaced are 3 pics from a set I obtained showing VANGUARD leaving the builders yard for the first time on 2 May 1946. The others in the set are all close-ups of various parts of the superstructure, so have not posted them.
Hope they are of interest
Regards
Steve
Great pictures, I couldn't resist tidying the one up and also noticed that the picture where she is being fitted out and the one I posted when she was being commissioned are taken at the same berth! It's a pity your photographer didn't include the old Tiger!
Bob.
VirtualF
19-09-2011, 16:16
What a beautiful picture that colour one is. HMS Vanguard was a real thing of beauty she looked so "right".
Great pictures, I couldn't resist tidying the one up and also noticed that the picture where she is being fitted out and the one I posted when she was being commissioned are taken at the same berth! It's a pity your photographer didn't include the old Tiger!
Bob.
Thanks Bob for the enhanced photo.
The 3 pics of her leaving the yard on 2 May 1946 are from a set of 17 pics of this occassion. Most are of close-ups of superstructure & deck areas but if they would be of interest, I will try and scan them and post them here.
regards
Steve
Batstiger
19-09-2011, 22:53
Thanks Bob for the enhanced photo.
The 3 pics of her leaving the yard on 2 May 1946 are from a set of 17 pics of this occassion. Most are of close-ups of superstructure & deck areas but if they would be of interest, I will try and scan them and post them here.
regards
Steve
Thank you Steve it would be nice to see them.
Bob.
Great pictures, I couldn't resist tidying the one up and also noticed that the picture where she is being fitted out and the one I posted when she was being commissioned are taken at the same berth! It's a pity your photographer didn't include the old Tiger!
Bob.
Hi Bob,
None of my photos shows TIGER near VANGUARD in May 46 but as she was launched in Oct 45 and work was suspended on her, maybe she had been moved elsewhere at John Brown's by the time VANGUARD left.
Herewith first (of 3) tranches of VANGUARD leaving John Brown's yard for the first time on 2 May 1946. I have included the 3 photos of the original post for the sake of continuity.
Hope they are of interest.
regards
Steve
Here is the last lot
Steve
Cracking set of pictures, Steve. Thanks for posting them.
It still looks awesome. I went on it for 3 weeks as a 13 year old sea cadet. It looked to me like nothing on earth then, it seemed too big to move.
Unfortunately this grand ship had a rather sad ending - she ran aground while being towed out of Portsmouth Harbour, I think she was resisting attempts to take her to the breakers. The customers at the Still and West had a very close view of the incident. these photos are probably familiar to most of you.
Another picture of Vanguard this time a painting by Charles Turner.
eskimosailor
20-09-2011, 19:54
I have got a better one somewhere Jim - but until I can put my hand on it this is the best I can do mate...
Note the old paddle tug on the starboard quarter. Never knew why they did away with a handling vessel that could turn in her own length.
There was, not so long ago, a huge picture of her trying to order a pint actually in the Still & West. I sat underneath it eating my fish and chips about a year ago.
Ste
The mess deck I was on was behind the armoured plating, so no scuttles, instead we had the heads of enormous bolts in the outer bulkhead. Our bathroom was also without scuttles, access was down a ladder, waste water from the bathroom deck was removed by a ventra ejector. On occassions we would flood the bathroom with salt water & have a splash about, after all we were very young.
Re: Dreadnoughts request at post 145 for an expanded view of his VANGUARD/HOWE photo at post 143.
Clive, I've just discovered that my copy of the expanded photo does not after all carry any copyright markings, so I now feel able to submit it. I hope it reproduces OK.
Incidentally, a little further research into Devonport records has narrowed the date the photo was taken. My original finding of between 5 March and 18 October 1956 is still correct however, but I can now add the following:
(i) if the cruiser on the mooring behind UNICORN is EURYALUS the photo would have been taken between 5 March and 13 May 1956.
(ii) however, if the cruiser was BELLONA it would have been taken between the 2nd and 18th of October 1956.
(iii) between 14 May and 2 October 1956, both cruisers lay together at this mooring, so the picture could not have been taken during this period.
A tough identification job for a forum expert maybe?
Regards.....Paul
Here is part 2
Steve
That's an excellent set of photographs. I'm looking at the extra chunks of armour added to the face of normal design 15in turrets (img 5/ part 2)
Shinysheff
23-09-2011, 17:42
Cracking photos added to this thread recently. Thanks all!
Rich
I posted a pic of Gibralter dockyard and it shows VANGUARD alongside(aerial photo ,not very clear), I was wondering if this was the time when she was drydocked for some reason,anyone know about this?
Dodgey photo this one, as shown in post #27. Can anyone see why?
I would love to be able to read the whole caption at the top of the picture. Maybe it acknowledges the problem!;)
Old Salt
03-12-2011, 00:15
I have great memories of Vanguard from when I was a very young Sea Cadet. The awe I felt approaching her in a boat, the excitement at arriving on deck... huge and spotless. Having been guided to our messdeck ... how will I ever find it again ?. The big breakwaters forward which we had to get over in our morning PT run. Being in the colour guard under the white awning : promised instant death if we 'sloped arms' instead of 'shoulder arms' and pushed the bayonets upwards through the awning ! Amazement at the size of a big cylinder in the galley from which came the custard. Learning never to have the first hammock by the ladder: our PO arriving at 0530 and whacking my hammock with hammock stretcher ! Being promised half a crown if anyone knew the date of the Battle of Trafalgar. Seeing the PO's face when I spouted out the correct answer. Driving an MFV alongside with dire threats if I touched the paintwork.
Next school holidays I had smartly applied for another course in Vanguard. This time round I was an old salt.
Obviously these impressions on a 13 year old boy were great. I still remember them over 50 years later. I wonder how many young lads were similarly impressed and went on to join the Navy ?
Brian
BCRenown
03-12-2011, 04:20
Such a wonderful post Brian. All I can say is I get the sentiment and wish I were you back then. Other than in photographs I have never seen a battleship, nor anything larger than a destroyer.
Monty
brian james
03-12-2011, 22:29
Thanks Steve for the great Pics and Brian for the great 'reminisces'....Brian...
Dodgey photo this one, as shown in post #27. Can anyone see why?
I would love to be able to read the whole caption at the top of the picture. Maybe it acknowledges the problem!;)
As nobody has answered the question posed two days ago, I suppose I'll give it another couple.:)
What is wrong with the picture in post #27?:rolleyes:
clevewyn
04-12-2011, 11:23
It`s been flipped horizontal, happens a lot.
It`s been flipped horizontal, happens a lot.
Correct. I think the header acknowledged this, as it says it was too good to discard. Ok for some, but Vanguard never had two anchors on its Port side!:D
clevewyn
04-12-2011, 11:43
Probably taken about the same time as this clip.
http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=53905
A great ship, she should have been saved, what an attraction she would be. I joined her at Portland for the purpose of obtaining an Auxiliary Watchkeepers Certificate. From Portland we went to Devonport & then (can't remember the sequence) to W. Scotland, Ballachulish, Loch Linnhe, Largs & then across to Bangor N.I. She was still a modern ship at that time, 1950, her accomodation & victualling superior , as I was to find out when I joined Wrangler before she was converted.
Just remembered we were guard ship at Cowes IOW for the Royal Regatta.
harry.gibbon
06-03-2012, 22:35
I have enjoyed viewing the photographs of Vanguard on the Photo Galleries forum (and others), firing salvos with her main armament, .
They got me thinking of a scenerio about which I would very much like to have the views of forum members.
Imagine, Vanguard, the scene:-
'A' & 'X' main armament turrets are trained to port, as are all the secondary and tertiary guns mounted on the port side.
'B' & 'Y' main armament turrets are trained to stbd, as are all the secondary and tertiary guns mounted on the stbd side.
Simultaneously all the guns fire one salvo.
What would be the likely effect on the ships' deck structure(s) in such an event?
Would the major stresses be at the ships centre line?
Would there be twisting of decks as a consequence of the direction of fire of the main armament combinations fore and aft?
The query arose when I viewed recently, a colour photograph of Iowa (http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=64382&d=1261317654)or New Jersey firing a broadside to stbd and the shock wave on the ocean surface below the gun barrels was clearly visible. But, visible on the port side at the water line is what appears to be a disruption of the ocean surface along the ships side, suggesting that although the ship was moving ahead, she was also being displaced slightly to port off the steaming line.
In the scenerio I have set for Vanguard, that would surely be cancelled out!
Little h
Don Boyer
06-03-2012, 23:12
Little H -- I have seen those Iowa photos, and the minor ripplesto the opposite side is merely the shock wave, much reduced, traveling through the ship's hull and transferring into the water alongside as the ship rocks slightly. The ship doesn't move sideways, or if it does, it's probably measured in millimeters. The opposite side of the ship is of course showing the shock wave from the gun blast impacting the surface of the water below the guns which is far more severe.
There were always those tales of the Iowa's moving several feet sideways when firing a full broadside, and I thought that would be the case myself until I saw an article that explained the math and physics, and said the ship would mearely "rock" slightly under the impact of the gun recoil, which contributed to the off-side appearance of a shock wave.
Hope this helps!
Regards,
harry.gibbon
07-03-2012, 00:00
Little H -- I have seen those Iowa photos, and the minor ripplesto the opposite side is merely the shock wave, much reduced, traveling through the ship's hull and transferring into the water alongside as the ship rocks slightly. The ship doesn't move sideways, or if it does, it's probably measured in millimeters. The opposite side of the ship is of course showing the shock wave from the gun blast impacting the surface of the water below the guns which is far more severe.
There were always those tales of the Iowa's moving several feet sideways when firing a full broadside, and I thought that would be the case myself until I saw an article that explained the math and physics, and said the ship would mearely "rock" slightly under the impact of the gun recoil, which contributed to the off-side appearance of a shock wave.
Hope this helps!
Regards,
Don,
Thanks for your response, it is much appreciated.
I noted that you had participated in 'The Iowa Class Battle Ships' thread where the subject of 'opposite displacement' (my terminology:)) was been discussed, which also included BB 61's post (http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showpost.php?p=147192&postcount=35)complete with link about the physics issues.
On that thread I was unable to find a/the photograph showing the shockwave transmission through to the opposite ships' side. However, I knew I had seen such a photo and found it elsewhere.
I wonder what other answers will be forthcoming about the Vanguard scenerio.
Little h
Don Boyer
07-03-2012, 06:40
I checked every Iowa class picture I have showing the turrets firing -- nine gun, three guns, six guns-- in no case could I see any evidence of an off side shock wave, mainly because the ship's wake on that side seems to mask anything else and unfortunately the shots at low ship speed were all taken from the firing side. Your photo must be unique!
Here's a photo of HMS Vanguard taken on the Royal Tour of South Africa 1947
Anyone have a photo of her dressed pre 1947?
Cheers
Bruce
alanandbren
07-03-2012, 07:45
Here's a photo of HMS Vanguard taken on the Royal Tour of South Africa 1947
Anyone have a photo of her dressed pre 1947?
Cheers
Bruce
Hi Bruce, I think this one dates a little later maybe 52 but still a great photo of her dressed overall,
Alan
Hi Bruce, I think this one dates a little later maybe 52 but still a great photo of her dressed overall,
Alan
Thanks Alan. Great photo.
Bruce
astraltrader
07-03-2012, 21:30
Not the most flattering angle to photograph Vanguard but a rare shot nevertheless showing her "at the mercy of the tugs" just after completion in 1946.
Terry, thanks for the photo, it may not be very flattering but it shows the lovely shape of her bow. I think Vanguard 's bow shape was probably copied from USN Battleships.
Don Boyer
08-03-2012, 15:13
Terry's latest shot of Vanguard is reminiscent of the oft-published 1944 photo of the USS Washington in Puget Sound after the refit to repair her crushed bow from the collision with the USS Indiana earlier that year. The bow shapes look similiar. From what I've read, Vanguard's flared bow and general lines forward made her a better sea-boat, particularly in North Atlantic weather, than the Iowa's thin narrow bows. I think Vanguard's design was all British, however, with little tipping of the hat to contemporary American designs, at least from what I've read.
astraltrader
08-03-2012, 15:55
Thanks Keith and Don. Although I had not considered this before I think you are both correct in that Vanguard's appearance does indicate an American influence.
This observation merely reminds me how much use and value the USN got out of her 4 Iowa's whilst the RN of course put her last ever Battleship to great use as a ..........Royal Yacht. :(
Don Boyer
08-03-2012, 21:53
The big difference is the amount of flare in Vanguard's bow, which allowed her to ride up on seas that any of the American big 10 would have more or less tended to plow through, to the detriment of forward speed. Actually, the American ships could have benefitted from copying the Vanguard bow form, but of course those ten came along sooner than Vanguard. And it was a shame Vanguard didn't get the sea-time and use for which she had been intended, nor was preserved after. Probably one of the most beautiful ships to ever sail the seas.
VirtualF
08-03-2012, 23:12
Thanks Keith and Don. Although I had not considered this before I think you are both correct in that Vanguard's appearance does indicate an American influence.
This observation merely reminds me how much use and value the USN got out of her 4 Iowa's whilst the RN of course put her last ever Battleship to great use as a ..........Royal Yacht. :(
Can I play devils advocate?
I agree with Don,I think she was the most beautiful of battleships,she had grace,speed and a trusted main armament.If she had been in the US Navy I'm sure that she would have been in reserve and called back to service.Unfortunately given the financial circumstances and manpower requirements the RN had to make tough decisions.If given the choice would you rather have say ,HMS Victorious with her modern air group or a battleship? I wish that she had been held in reserve,mothballed and brought back into commission when needed...But I think that the UK's finances where such that the admiralty were having to jump through hoops just to keep the carriers around at a time when the ASW was the big concern and the "atomic" sub was going to be the next big thing.
I suppose that it may have been possible to have kept the great ship a little longer if say a couple of cruisers had gone instead,but what would you do with her? My understanding is that the Iowa's were brought back and modernised to fulfil Reagans idea of a 600 ship navy,also if you want to "show the flag" I doubt that any warship was better at doing it than a battleship. As for the RN? Well,I remember reading an excellent book that linked the power of the RN to the strength of the economy.HMS Vanguard (for me) would have to take deference to the carrier force or Polaris or the ASW fleet.
I wish that she was still in Portsmouth (though not tied up outside the "Still and West"!) as a museum ship.I curse the fact that I was born before an age where I could see the majestic beauty of a dreadnought .But I can understand why the RN called it a day.
I bow to the knowledge and experience of others,but hey thats my contribution,feel free to shoot me down,its the only way Ill learn!
Regards Virtualf
cadillac811
09-03-2012, 03:51
Can I play devils advocate?
I agree with Don,I think she was the most beautiful of battleships,she had grace,speed and a trusted main armament.If she had been in the US Navy I'm sure that she would have been in reserve and called back to service.Unfortunately given the financial circumstances and manpower requirements the RN had to make tough decisions.If given the choice would you rather have say ,HMS Victorious with her modern air group or a battleship? I wish that she had been held in reserve,mothballed and brought back into commission when needed...But I think that the UK's finances where such that the admiralty were having to jump through hoops just to keep the carriers around at a time when the ASW was the big concern and the "atomic" sub was going to be the next big thing.
I suppose that it may have been possible to have kept the great ship a little longer if say a couple of cruisers had gone instead,but what would you do with her? My understanding is that the Iowa's were brought back and modernised to fulfil Reagans idea of a 600 ship navy,also if you want to "show the flag" I doubt that any warship was better at doing it than a battleship. As for the RN? Well,I remember reading an excellent book that linked the power of the RN to the strength of the economy.HMS Vanguard (for me) would have to take deference to the carrier force or Polaris or the ASW fleet.
I wish that she was still in Portsmouth (though not tied up outside the "Still and West"!) as a museum ship.I curse the fact that I was born before an age where I could see the majestic beauty of a dreadnought .But I can understand why the RN called it a day.
I bow to the knowledge and experience of others,but hey thats my contribution,feel free to shoot me down,its the only way Ill learn!
Regards Virtualf
Well Ok, Let's play devils advocate. First let me say that as an American I have the greatest respect for England and the Royal Navy so please believe my crititsizm is not meant as a sign of disrespect. It so happens I believe that the Vanguard should never have been scrapped and to do so was a craven act. I have heard all the arguments from that the RN had to conserve funds to the no mission for such a ship in the atomic age. Well, governments either "pony up" the money or become 2nd rate powers. I feel it was imperative for Great Brittian as a maritime nation and bulwark of NATO to keep a strong fleet in being during the cold war. Frankly I would not only have kept Vanguard but also the KGV class (and several crusiers too!). I would have supported the rearming of the KGV's with the famous 15/42 so that all used the same main gun. While trying to support the empire with less and less secure assets I as an American feel it was imperative for the RN to have those ships which could "show the flag". Now I realize that in the so called Atomic Age (1950's) such ships were considered obsolete but then frankly by that reasoning ALL surface ships would be obsolete. An argument that becomes moot for any conflict short of Nucular war. I have also heard the argument that somehow the Vanguard was inferior because her main guns were ONLY 15/42's instead of the 16 in gun. Excuse me, but would YOU want to be on the recieving end of a 15/42 calling card? This argument reminds me of the American debate of the 16/45 in the North Carolina vs the 16/50 of the Iowa's. Well, it just so happens that the 16/45 of the North Carolina was designed to use the later "heavy" 2700 lb. shell of the Iowa's. Ask the Japanese survivors of the shelling on Iwo Jima or other islands in the pacific if they "noticed" the difference in the shells. HMS Vanguard was a beautiful, modern ship with quite an effective main armament, good speed and seakeeping abilities. To this day pictures of her demise infuriate me, for it signaled not just the end of an age but the final demise of the British Empire as a leading world power. A demise that started with the Labour Gov't of 1945 and the mass scrapping of the fleet. Sorry fella's it just the way I feel.
Don Boyer
09-03-2012, 05:29
Re Cadillac811's post, first of all I should say that on this forum "shooting someone down" is never an object of any post! Back when I was a newbie, and that wasn't long ago, everyone on the forum would engage in lively discussion, true, but never with the aim of shooting down another's opinion and always with a kind eye toward sharing knowledge and forging friendships. This is one of the most respectful and "adult" of forums in that respect, due in large part to the 'founding fathers" on the forum, who have guided us all.
As to the retention of battleships et al, for Britain the bitter pill of post-war retrenchment was probably worse for the RN and the nation than the lot of may nations post war. Great Britain had, in essence, given up the treasures of empire to preserve itself and it's free and democratic government not once, but twice in the same century. This not only preserved the nation but much of the free world as well. The price was enormously heavy and the effects long-lasting. The dollars (oops! pounds!) were just not there any more and the choices were hard -- the navy had to stay modern and capable of dealing with the Soviet threat. Battleships could not do that, unfortunately. And in the United States, one must remember that those four Iowa's were in reserve far longer than they were active, and were lucky indeed to survive long enough to be revitalized in the 80s and even then their lifespan was short in active service and they were finally discarded. Six other modern battleships never made it that far and were quickly disposed of post war either to the scrap pile or as memorials, even though they had the excellent guns ideal for shore bombardment.
Vanguard, sadly, was a victim of time, and hers was all too short.
designeraccd
09-03-2012, 06:09
I recall reading that even during her too brief active life only 2 of her 4 turrets were manned and operational (?). If I'm remembering correctly, that gave her the same armament as the Jean Bart which only had Turret II (4 15") manned and operational, but they both LOOKED impressive! DFO :D
cadillac811
09-03-2012, 13:33
Re Cadillac811's post, first of all I should say that on this forum "shooting someone down" is never an object of any post! Back when I was a newbie, and that wasn't long ago, everyone on the forum would engage in lively discussion, true, but never with the aim of shooting down another's opinion and always with a kind eye toward sharing knowledge and forging friendships. This is one of the most respectful and "adult" of forums in that respect, due in large part to the 'founding fathers" on the forum, who have guided us all.
As to the retention of battleships et al, for Britain the bitter pill of post-war retrenchment was probably worse for the RN and the nation than the lot of may nations post war. Great Britain had, in essence, given up the treasures of empire to preserve itself and it's free and democratic government not once, but twice in the same century. This not only preserved the nation but much of the free world as well. The price was enormously heavy and the effects long-lasting. The dollars (oops! pounds!) were just not there any more and the choices were hard -- the navy had to stay modern and capable of dealing with the Soviet threat. Battleships could not do that, unfortunately. And in the United States, one must remember that those four Iowa's were in reserve far longer than they were active, and were lucky indeed to survive long enough to be revitalized in the 80s and even then their lifespan was short in active service and they were finally discarded. Six other modern battleships never made it that far and were quickly disposed of post war either to the scrap pile or as memorials, even though they had the excellent guns ideal for shore bombardment.
Vanguard, sadly, was a victim of time, and hers was all too short.
Dear Don, re your post #194. It was never my intention to shoot down any other members opinion. On the contrary I fully admit that Virtual F makes some very important points, it's just that I don't necessarly agree with all of them. Some yes, but not all. If my language was somewhat strident it was really directed at those in Government who expect good men and women to do more with less and sometimes all with nothing! We all have opinion's on all things. Wepons, type of ship, use , ect. I've never been happy with the US Navy's view in the 50's that the Battleship was passe'. After all, although times change, a well balanced fleet should have all types of ships to perform its missions. I just feel that this would have been a better world for everyone, America included if the Royal Navy had been stronger since 1945.
VirtualF
09-03-2012, 15:38
Well Ok, Let's play devils advocate. First let me say that as an American I have the greatest respect for England and the Royal Navy so please believe my crititsizm is not meant as a sign of disrespect. It so happens I believe that the Vanguard should never have been scrapped and to do so was a craven act. I have heard all the arguments from that the RN had to conserve funds to the no mission for such a ship in the atomic age. Well, governments either "pony up" the money or become 2nd rate powers. I feel it was imperative for Great Brittian as a maritime nation and bulwark of NATO to keep a strong fleet in being during the cold war. Frankly I would not only have kept Vanguard but also the KGV class (and several crusiers too!). I would have supported the rearming of the KGV's with the famous 15/42 so that all used the same main gun. While trying to support the empire with less and less secure assets I as an American feel it was imperative for the RN to have those ships which could "show the flag". Now I realize that in the so called Atomic Age (1950's) such ships were considered obsolete but then frankly by that reasoning ALL surface ships would be obsolete. An argument that becomes moot for any conflict short of Nucular war. I have also heard the argument that somehow the Vanguard was inferior because her main guns were ONLY 15/42's instead of the 16 in gun. Excuse me, but would YOU want to be on the recieving end of a 15/42 calling card? This argument reminds me of the American debate of the 16/45 in the North Carolina vs the 16/50 of the Iowa's. Well, it just so happens that the 16/45 of the North Carolina was designed to use the later "heavy" 2700 lb. shell of the Iowa's. Ask the Japanese survivors of the shelling on Iwo Jima or other islands in the pacific if they "noticed" the difference in the shells. HMS Vanguard was a beautiful, modern ship with quite an effective main armament, good speed and seakeeping abilities. To this day pictures of her demise infuriate me, for it signaled not just the end of an age but the final demise of the British Empire as a leading world power. A demise that started with the Labour Gov't of 1945 and the mass scrapping of the fleet. Sorry fella's it just the way I feel.
The UK was bankrupt in 1945,its industrial base was worn out,its railways were worn out,many of its cities were in ruins and a vast swathe of housing stock had been lost.This wasn't the UK of 1918,the effort of 6 years of warfare had took us up and beyond the limit.The empire would be dissolved,India would gain independence and our status as a first rate power would come to the end.Our time at the top had come to an end and remember it was the British people who voted for the Labour government as they wished for change,they did not want a repeat of the 20's where the long awaited "land fit for heroes" never appeared.This was the world that the RN had to adapt to in the immediate post war.Many warships were scrapped,many of them were old and worn out after 6 years of hard service,many were laid up.
The choice the RN was simple,they had to use the money available to formulate a fleet that best suited its needs.The USN had no such problem,the US were super rich and a superpower,they could afford carriers,battleships,cruisers and a host of destroyers,they could afford a huge strategic bomber force and swarms of jet fighters.They could even afford to lay up a vast amount of ships for reactivation when needed.Britain simply could not afford to do this,as much as any Prime Minister would have liked to,there was always compromise and inter service rivalry between the services over limited funds.The funds were limited because the UK's economy was still struggling.
My comments in regards to HMS Vanguard ,was not a slight on the battleship,but an observation that the RN had to make choices.The RN needed modern carriers,with modern aircraft. For flexibility and power projection I would rather have HMS Victorious "East of Suez" than HMS Vanguard.Nobody would want to be on the receiving end of a 15inch shell,but just how many coastal bombardments would HMS Vanguard be undertaking? In the cold war the RN's big fear was the Russian submarine force,hence the large number of ASW ships built and conversions undertaken,how is HMS Vanguard going to help there.
Im sure that if the RN could afford the carriers,cruisers,escorts,missiles,guns and nuclear subs she wanted they may have kept the KGV's and Vanguard longer.The point is that they couldn't and had to make hard choices in response to acts of parliament from both of the political parties when in government to maintain the required levels of capability.
The US where in a position where they could afford to pretty much everything they wanted (within reason) and could afford to run the magnificent Iowas.
Britain couldn't.We won the battle for survival,but it came at a high cost as Don has pointed out.
Regards VF
Don Boyer
09-03-2012, 22:51
Cadillac Dude: Wan't my intent to suggest YOU shooting someone down, I was saying that sort of thing doesn't happen on this forum, just so you wouldn't feel that you might be on the receiving end! :) Of course "lively discussion" is the rule of the day!
Regards,
harry.gibbon
10-03-2012, 00:27
I checked every Iowa class picture I have showing the turrets firing -- nine gun, three guns, six guns-- in no case could I see any evidence of an off side shock wave, mainly because the ship's wake on that side seems to mask anything else and unfortunately the shots at low ship speed were all taken from the firing side. Your photo must be unique!
Don,
Apologies for delay in responding.
I can admit to being somewhat convinced that the ship would not 'step out' or go off course as a consequence of a broadside shoot. However, if we revert to the scenario I posed and following on from earlier posts, might it be possible that the shock/stresses placed on the deck structures would be directed towards the mid line of the ship, also downwards and perhaps at the keel the ocean would absorb any impact?
Or is it the case that the recoil of these weapons is so well dampened that there is no effect on the ship structure what-so-ever? I wonder?
Little h
Don Boyer
10-03-2012, 02:14
Don,
Apologies for delay in responding.
I can admit to being somewhat convinced that the ship would not 'step out' or go off course as a consequence of a broadside shoot. However, if we revert to the scenario I posed and following on from earlier posts, might it be possible that the shock/stresses placed on the deck structures would be directed towards the mid line of the ship, also downwards and perhaps at the keel the ocean would absorb any impact?
Or is it the case that the recoil of these weapons is so well dampened that there is no effect on the ship structure what-so-ever? I wonder?
Little h
Got me on that one! I do remember hearing a story from an officer who did his midshipman's cruise aboard Iowa -- he had a cabin near Turret Two, and when it fired, it would shear rivets upon occasion! Of course those would have been the small aluminum divider rivets, not ship's structural ones -- still that would probably wake you right up!
Regards,
cadillac811
10-03-2012, 12:28
The UK was bankrupt in 1945,its industrial base was worn out,its railways were worn out,many of its cities were in ruins and a vast swathe of housing stock had been lost.This wasn't the UK of 1918,the effort of 6 years of warfare had took us up and beyond the limit.The empire would be dissolved,India would gain independence and our status as a first rate power would come to the end.Our time at the top had come to an end and remember it was the British people who voted for the Labour government as they wished for change,they did not want a repeat of the 20's where the long awaited "land fit for heroes" never appeared.This was the world that the RN had to adapt to in the immediate post war.Many warships were scrapped,many of them were old and worn out after 6 years of hard service,many were laid up.
The choice the RN was simple,they had to use the money available to formulate a fleet that best suited its needs.The USN had no such problem,the US were super rich and a superpower,they could afford carriers,battleships,cruisers and a host of destroyers,they could afford a huge strategic bomber force and swarms of jet fighters.They could even afford to lay up a vast amount of ships for reactivation when needed.Britain simply could not afford to do this,as much as any Prime Minister would have liked to,there was always compromise and inter service rivalry between the services over limited funds.The funds were limited because the UK's economy was still struggling.
My comments in regards to HMS Vanguard ,was not a slight on the battleship,but an observation that the RN had to make choices.The RN needed modern carriers,with modern aircraft. For flexibility and power projection I would rather have HMS Victorious "East of Suez" than HMS Vanguard.Nobody would want to be on the receiving end of a 15inch shell,but just how many coastal bombardments would HMS Vanguard be undertaking? In the cold war the RN's big fear was the Russian submarine force,hence the large number of ASW ships built and conversions undertaken,how is HMS Vanguard going to help there.
Im sure that if the RN could afford the carriers,cruisers,escorts,missiles,guns and nuclear subs she wanted they may have kept the KGV's and Vanguard longer.The point is that they couldn't and had to make hard choices in response to acts of parliament from both of the political parties when in government to maintain the required levels of capability.
The US where in a position where they could afford to pretty much everything they wanted (within reason) and could afford to run the magnificent Iowas.
Britain couldn't.We won the battle for survival,but it came at a high cost as Don has pointed out.
Regards VF
Dear VF, You are of course absolutley right in your argument, but in my heart as an amature historian I will always be heartsick that Great Britian was so financially devestated by 1945. Such brave people deserved better.
cadillac811
10-03-2012, 13:38
Cadillac Dude: Wan't my intent to suggest YOU shooting someone down, I was saying that sort of thing doesn't happen on this forum, just so you wouldn't feel that you might be on the receiving end! :) Of course "lively discussion" is the rule of the day!
Regards,
Dear Admiral, No problem. It will always be a pleasure and learning experience to take direction from someone with your years of service. Your view is based on an "inside" knowledge that can't be taught. It has to be experienced. My knowledge is based from afar. Although it wasn't for lack of trying. I tried to enlist during my younger days but was 4F. (Lucky for the Navy huh?) All the best, Cadillac811
Choppy Sea
10-03-2012, 17:28
A great ship, she should have been saved, what an attraction she would be. I joined her at Portland for the purpose of obtaining an Auxiliary Watchkeepers Certificate. From Portland we went to Devonport & then (can't remember the sequence) to W. Scotland, Ballachulish, Loch Linnhe, Largs & then across to Bangor N.I. She was still a modern ship at that time, 1950, her accomodation & victualling superior , as I was to find out when I joined Wrangler before she was converted.
Keith I remember that cruise very well, more out of boredom than anything else. It was out of boredom that four of us went ashore in Ballachulish, we walked for miles along a road without finding any civilisation only a monumnet to a "Stewart" I think who was murdered there. Then we found a tiny pub which only sold rough scrumpy from the barrel. I was still spitting out the pips a fortnight later. Went back there about five years ago and there are a lot more houses around now and also a visitors centre. But they are all sixty odd years too late, they missed the awesome sight of Vanguard anchored at Ballachulish. I remember what an impressive sight she was when we viewed her from ashore against the high rising ground at the back of her, I can still see her now. Ray H
Don Boyer
10-03-2012, 18:49
Dear Admiral, No problem. It will always be a pleasure and learning experience to take direction from someone with your years of service. Your view is based on an "inside" knowledge that can't be taught. It has to be experienced. My knowledge is based from afar. Although it wasn't for lack of trying. I tried to enlist during my younger days but was 4F. (Lucky for the Navy huh?) All the best, Cadillac811
Thanks, Cadillac -- but Admiral rank here on the forum is an honorary related to the number of posts. Probably as well I was never an Admiral, or some of our brethern oveseas would be living in smoking ruins, if at all...my background is really 50 years of historical study and my naval career was six years in the USN and 17 years as a military brat! :)
The lads here with decades in the Andrew are the true salts on this forum!
Regards,
Keith I remember that cruise very well, more out of boredom than anything else. It was out of boredom that four of us went ashore in Ballachulish, we walked for miles along a road without finding any civilisation only a monumnet to a "Stewart" I think who was murdered there. Then we found a tiny pub which only sold rough scrumpy from the barrel. I was still spitting out the pips a fortnight later. Went back there about five years ago and there are a lot more houses around now and also a visitors centre. But they are all sixty odd years too late, they missed the awesome sight of Vanguard anchored at Ballachulish. I remember what an impressive sight she was when we viewed her from ashore against the high rising ground at the back of her, I can still see her now. Ray H
I forgot to mention that in 50 we were guard ship for the Royal Regatta at Cowes on the Isle of Wight. I'm sure I posted in a thread a picture of RMS Queen Mary passing us in the solent.
Choppy Sea
11-03-2012, 17:57
I forgot to mention that in 50 we were guard ship for the Royal Regatta at Cowes on the Isle of Wight. I'm sure I posted in a thread a picture of RMS Queen Mary passing us in the solent.
I have it in the back of my mind that the only highlight of this cruise was Torquay, cant remember if it was first or last port of call. Have you any recollections. I do remember the regatta at Cowes and also the Queen Mary passing us in the Solent, her guardrails were lined with passengers, no one had any doubts after that which was the bigger ship. Would really like to see that photo. Ray H
Choppy Sea
12-03-2012, 18:03
Just for you Ray.
Thanks a million Keith, I have never seen this photo before. Ray H
Thanks a million Keith, I have never seen this photo before. Ray H
Photo is dated 1 August 1950 in Cowes Roads with QE outward bound from Southampton for Cherbourg & NY whilst VANGUARD was Cowes Guardship.
Steve
You are right Steve Queen Mary had three funnels.
Choppy Sea
14-03-2012, 10:12
You are right Steve Queen Mary had three funnels.
Keith. it did cross my mind about the three funnels but didnt sink in. Might have something to do with age maybe. Ray H
chris westwood
15-03-2012, 07:52
what was the actual purpose of the vanguard?
It seems to have been to go on cruises and be 'guardship' for royal regattas-why would a regatta be needed to 'guarded'-against what exactly?
Vanguard was a handsome ship, but she was a mixture of pre world war 1 and 1930s technology.
Choppy Sea
15-03-2012, 09:24
what was the actual purpose of the vanguard?
It seems to have been to go on cruises and be 'guardship' for royal regattas-why would a regatta be needed to 'guarded'-against what exactly?
Vanguard was a handsome ship, but she was a mixture of pre world war 1 and 1930s technology.
Vanguard was a training ship for new entries who completed thier first three months sea training on board. One of her purposes that is. All fleets, when we had them went on cruises twice a year which was known as "showing the flag". Perhaps a guard ship in this instance could be described as a place of entertainment for nobility. I certainly dont agree with you about 1930s technology. Ray H.
chris westwood
15-03-2012, 09:39
Vanguard was a training ship for new entries who completed thier first three months sea training on board. One of her purposes that is. All fleets, when we had them went on cruises twice a year which was known as "showing the flag". Perhaps a guard ship in this instance could be described as a place of entertainment for nobility. I certainly dont agree with you about 1930s technology. Ray H.
apart from her homogeneous tertiary AA armament Vanguard was a mixture of pre first world war(15 inch main armament) and 1930s technology.
To use a massive, expensive to run asset, in the way you say was outrageous: although it is difficult to see what other use such a white elephant could be used for.
Presumably entertaining the 'nobility' wasn't done at the taspayers' expense. I seem to remember this was a period of austerity for the rest of the population.
VirtualF
15-03-2012, 17:01
apart from her homogeneous tertiary AA armament Vanguard was a mixture of pre first world war(15 inch main armament) and 1930s technology.
To use a massive, expensive to run asset, in the way you say was outrageous: although it is difficult to see what other use such a white elephant could be used for.
Presumably entertaining the 'nobility' wasn't done at the taspayers' expense. I seem to remember this was a period of austerity for the rest of the population.
Agree,fabulous looking warship,but at a time when money was short I can understand why she was decommissioned.I do feel that it was a crying shame that she wasn't preserved as a museum.At least we have HMS Belfast and hopefully at some point HMS Caroline.
chris westwood
15-03-2012, 22:25
Agree,fabulous looking warship,but at a time when money was short I can understand why she was decommissioned.I do feel that it was a crying shame that she wasn't preserved as a museum.At least we have HMS Belfast and hopefully at some point HMS Caroline.
I reckon the Caroline is an undervalued gem.
The only military use the vanguard would have had was fire support, assuming her ancient main armament wasn't worn out. Yet she didn't take part in Korea-Belfast did, nor the Suez debacle.
Choppy Sea
16-03-2012, 11:42
I reckon the Caroline is an undervalued gem.
The only military use the vanguard would have had was fire support, assuming her ancient main armament wasn't worn out. Yet she didn't take part in Korea-Belfast did, nor the Suez debacle.
Chris thats what Vanguard was built for, firepower, too late. What would you have done with a battleship still almost brand new at the time I was recalling.Or was she worn out as you suggest even though her main armament had only been fired once. Lets not forget that she also carried four twin turrets each side which I believe were 6. something. Would you have scrapped her on the stocks or what else would you have suggested. Ray H
chris westwood
16-03-2012, 13:17
Chris thats what Vanguard was built for, firepower, too late. What would you have done with a battleship still almost brand new at the time I was recalling.Or was she worn out as you suggest even though her main armament had only been fired once. Lets not forget that she also carried four twin turrets each side which I believe were 6. something. Would you have scrapped her on the stocks or what else would you have suggested. Ray H
but she was never used for it when opoortunities were there.
She was an expensive anomaly and should have been cancelled, or scrapped before she entered service.
I was referring to her main armament as being worn out. It dated from before world war one.
Her secondary 5,25 inch dp armament wasn't the best design to start with, and was obsolete when she was launched. these weapons dated fromthe 1930s.
The uses that posters have said that she was put to were outrageous.
Choppy Sea
16-03-2012, 18:47
but she was never used for it when opoortunities were there.
She was an expensive anomaly and should have been cancelled, or scrapped before she entered service.
I was referring to her main armament as being worn out. It dated from before world war one.
Her secondary 5,25 inch dp armament wasn't the best design to start with, and was obsolete when she was launched. these weapons dated fromthe 1930s.
The uses that posters have said that she was put to were outrageous.
Chris, carriers were used at Korea because they were more efficient than battleships and bombardment at Suez simply wasnt required, land based aircraft from Malta had already done thier work. Vanguards gunnery control was modern when she went into service, I understand that the main armament was manufactured for a first world war ship and never used and therefore were fitted on Vanguard. This does not mean that they came from a scrapyard and were worn out. Had she come into service before she did I have a feeling that surface raiders might very well have found out that they were not. As long as there was ammunition to fit it was the control system that counted everything depended on this. Speak to any matelot and he will tell you about outrageous things that he and his ship had to do. There is an old RN saying "bullshit baffles brains" the RN was very very good at it. Ray H
Choppy Sea
16-03-2012, 18:51
The training of men in seamanship, on a ship and not in a classroom would not be in the outrageous categary. She did this for a good many years or so I believe, Ray H
BCRenown
16-03-2012, 23:12
what was the actual purpose of the vanguard?
Vanguard was a handsome ship, but she was a mixture of pre world war 1 and 1930s technology.
The twin 15" gun mountings fitted to Vanguard and others before her are regarded by many naval experts to be one of the most reliable, effecient and effective gun mountings ever to go to sea. By the time they had been fitted to Vanguard (from Glorious and Courageous), they had been further improved. And, her four twin turret arrangement is regarded as the optimum layout for good gunnery control.
Her secondary armament of 5.25" mountings were of a different Mark# than those of KGV and Dido and were altogether faster mountings.
It can also be argued that Vanguard was the best protected warship ever and had seakeeping qualities that were second to none.
That Vanguard was a waste of time, money and resources should not be regarded as a negative reflection of her design attributes. She was arguably the last Royal Navy warship that could stand toe to toe with any of her foreign counterparts.
Monty
astraltrader
16-03-2012, 23:55
While I would not argue that Vanguard was indeed a waste of time, money and resources the fact is as she was built and completed, it was a criminal waste that she was not made good use of.
As the last and potentially the best of a long line of battleships the bare minimum use for her should have been at least 30-40 years of flying the flag for Britain during years when that was still of great importance plus combining many other useful roles not least of which would have been for training.
Over the past half a century the navy in particular has a history of failing to make good use of the ships she possessed. Premature scrapping and/or selling off cheaply many fine ships has continued right up to and including this century. I accept much of the blame for this lies with our politicians but not by any means all of it....
chris westwood
17-03-2012, 09:17
Chris, carriers were used at Korea because they were more efficient than battleships and bombardment at Suez simply wasnt required, land based aircraft from Malta had already done thier work. Vanguards gunnery control was modern when she went into service, I understand that the main armament was manufactured for a first world war ship and never used and therefore were fitted on Vanguard. This does not mean that they came from a scrapyard and were worn out. Had she come into service before she did I have a feeling that surface raiders might very well have found out that they were not. As long as there was ammunition to fit it was the control system that counted everything depended on this. Speak to any matelot and he will tell you about outrageous things that he and his ship had to do. There is an old RN saying "bullshit baffles brains" the RN was very very good at it. Ray H
belfast was used in a fire support role as were us capital ships in Korea.
I take your point regarding the good as new nature vanguard's main armament. These weapons were designed in 1912.
Vanguard didn't come into service earlier becsuse her construction was a low priority, and surface raiders or the threat of them had minimised to during the early part of her construction.
chris westwood
17-03-2012, 09:19
The training of men in seamanship, on a ship and not in a classroom would not be in the outrageous categary. She did this for a good many years or so I believe, Ray H
the training of men in seamanship in a huge battleship with its attendant cost, and disproportionate use of experienced manpower was IMHO outrageous: but not, to be fair, as outrageous as her being used to entertain the 'nobility' at regattas.
chris westwood
17-03-2012, 09:23
The twin 15" gun mountings fitted to Vanguard and others before her are regarded by many naval experts to be one of the most reliable, effecient and effective gun mountings ever to go to sea. By the time they had been fitted to Vanguard (from Glorious and Courageous), they had been further improved. And, her four twin turret arrangement is regarded as the optimum layout for good gunnery control.
Her secondary armament of 5.25" mountings were of a different Mark# than those of KGV and Dido and were altogether faster mountings.
It can also be argued that Vanguard was the best protected warship ever and had seakeeping qualities that were second to none.
That Vanguard was a waste of time, money and resources should not be regarded as a negative reflection of her design attributes. She was arguably the last Royal Navy warship that could stand toe to toe with any of her foreign counterparts.
Monty
agreed but she didn't have any foreign couterparts except the Americans.
Her ancient main armament notwithstanding, she was, as you say the ultimate in British battleship design.
VirtualF
17-03-2012, 10:07
The twin 15" gun mountings fitted to Vanguard and others before her are regarded by many naval experts to be one of the most reliable, effecient and effective gun mountings ever to go to sea. By the time they had been fitted to Vanguard (from Glorious and Courageous), they had been further improved. And, her four twin turret arrangement is regarded as the optimum layout for good gunnery control.
Her secondary armament of 5.25" mountings were of a different Mark# than those of KGV and Dido and were altogether faster mountings.
It can also be argued that Vanguard was the best protected warship ever and had seakeeping qualities that were second to none.
That Vanguard was a waste of time, money and resources should not be regarded as a negative reflection of her design attributes. She was arguably the last Royal Navy warship that could stand toe to toe with any of her foreign counterparts.
Monty
Agreed,she had a much better secondary armament than the KGV's and the Dido's...
However,what they be used against? I wouldn't feel confident about using them against jet aircraft,so you would have to have a carrier in the group to provide protection.Other ships? Well yes,I'm sure that they would do the job,but if you have got a carrier in the group why would you need to? I can see that she could do a great job in providing shore bombardment,but how often would that opportunity arise?
Then you have the issue around spares.How many 15 inch barrels were left by the mid 50's? Im sure that some would have been left over,but an awful lot were simply cut up when the Q.E's and Revenge class were scrapped,Id imagine that spares for the mountings themselves were not saved when those ships ware cut up.You then have to keep a core of men trained to actually use the things. It could end up being very expensive and seeing that just 6 years after her demise even the carrier force was for the chop with Dennis Healeys 1966 defence act impractical. She was a great ship which was unfortunately built too late,with her original perceived role becoming obsolete.
Could they have re-armed her with 4.5's instead of her 5.25's,Seacat instead of Bofors?Even Seaslug replacing say, "X" and "Y" turrets?Quite possibly,but how cost effective would have been? The Counties carried all three of those system's.
I love battleships,they are the reason I spend a fortune on naval books! But I just can't see what HMS Vanguard's role could have been given the circumstances at the time.
regards Vf
There were still men serving in the RN in the late 60's & early 70's who knew how to operate the 15" guns.
I recall talking to a Lt Cdr in the early 70's who told me that when the USN decided to re-activate NEW JERSEY for gunfire duties off Vietnam, there was no one still serving in the USN who knew how to operate the big 16" guns & turrets that she carried and so the RN sent over a group of men (Officers & Senior Rates) who could still remember how VANGUARD's guns & turrets operated and they helped to re-train the USN personnel in this. They even assisted in her gunnery trials firing the 16" guns on the gunnery range off Puerto Rico (I think) in 1968 before she went to Vietnam.
Subsequently, I assume that these retrained USN gunners were available when the other 3 Iowa class ships were re-activated by Reagan in the 80's.
Steve
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