U.S. Navy in the U.K.

[kookaburra]

Sixty years ago, in the summer of 1948, an American task force made a midshipmen's training cruise to the Caribbean and the U.K. It was the lead story in the National Geographic magazine's June issue of that year, with an article written by Midshipmen William J. Aston and Alexander G.B. Grosvenor,USN.


A gesture here. I'm posting this because I thought it just possible that some U.K. forum members, or their dad's, remembered this visit - maybe even some ex-USN who were on it.

The ships were the Battleships USSs New Jersey and Wisconsin, carriers Randolph and Kearsage, four destroyers and an LSD. Its not clear if all these vessels came to the U.K., but some did. The midshipmen who wrote the piece were from USS New Jersey.

First post will deal with their voyage, with glimpses of shipboard life, and that distinctly relaxed American manner. Second and third parts will be scenes of their sightseeing and hospitality in the U.K.


Colour photograph reproductions, even in National Geographic not quite what we get in magazines now, but there is a period feel - particularly the one of a visit to St Paul's to come, which intimates a London still recovering from the blitz.
Wonderful angle on the Firth of Forth bridge, too.


Edit: I'm completing this in two parts, not 3, as initially anticipated.

[kookaburra]

Part 2: In the U.K.

[herakles]

Ahhhhhh! All these guys are probably dead from old age now!

Very interesting photos K. Right up to the standard one has always found in National Geographic.

[astraltrader]

Some great pictures Jeff. The one of St Pauls Cathedral brings it home how near-miraculous her survival really was. Virtually every building around the Cathedral was well and truly flattened.

[John Odom]

I remember the article. I was in the Philippines then. I met a man who was on that cruise when I visited the New Jersey last year. I don't remember his name.

[INVINCIBLE]

This may well be the wrong thread but I am not sure where I should post it. I have just got back from a very interesting lecture in Gosport on the Polaris Missile system. I noticed in the harbour (Portsmouth Naval Base) some strange ships and I wonder if anybody knows, which ships they are. The frigates look like US Perry class ships but the other - support ship? helicopter carrier? assault ship?. There may even be two different ships with the superstructure of the rear ship confusing me. Anybody identify these ships?
Steve?

[steve roberts]

Hi Invincible.The first ship posted is the USS Stephen W. Groves.As you say an Oliver Hazard Perry class.The second I can not Identify,but is possibly some form of support vessel.
Regards Steve.

[INVINCIBLE]

Hi Invincible.Thr first ship posted is the USS Stephen W. Groves.As you say an Oliver Hazard Perry class.The second I can not Identify,but is possibly some form of support vessel.
Regards Steve.

Steve,

Many thanks, it would appear that there are two frigates, but perhaps somebody else can identify the larger strange ship?

[INVINCIBLE]

This may well be the wrong thread but I am not sure where I should post it. I have just got back from a very interesting lecture in Gosport on the Polaris Missile system. I noticed in the harbour (Portsmouth Naval Base) some strange ships and I wonder if anybody knows, which ships they are. The frigates look like US Perry class ships but the other - support ship? helicopter carrier? assault ship?. There may even be two different ships with the superstructure of the rear ship confusing me. Anybody identify these ships?
Steve?

I think I have now found it on the inter net - would seem to be the Command ship USS MOUNT WHITNEY.

[qprdave]

I have started this thread to enable members to place pictures and discuss the U.S. Navy visiting the U.K. Lets hope that there is a good response as there must be many photos of U.S. Ships in Portsmouth, Plymouth et.c

qprdave

[Powers]

A rather poor snapshot of MOUNT WHITNEY at Devonport in the 1980's - she's been around for a while now!

[INVINCIBLE]

I have started this thread to enable members to place pictures and discuss the U.S. Navy visiting the U.K. Lets hope that there is a good response as there must be many photos of U.S. Ships in Portsmouth, Plymouth et.c

qprdave

Many thanks for opening this new thread - excellent idea because we are often favoured with visits by US warships. The mighty carriers anchor out in the Solent (where Nelson's fleet used to anchor) I had some great pictures of a few of those carriers, but sadly my computer ate the pictures and I had not made back up copies!!

[steve roberts]

Hi Invincible.I am sure that the Portsmouth Evening News will have photographs of the carrier visits.I don't know how much they charge for photos,but their archives are almost as good as those at the Navy News!
Many Regards Steve.

[INVINCIBLE]

Hi Invincible.I am sure that the Portsmouth Evening News will have photographs of the carrier visits.I don't know how much they charge for photos,but their archives are almost as good as those at the Navy News!
Many Regards Steve.

Steve,
Many thanks for the tip. They do have some very good pictures and a long time ago I got a copy of their impressive picture of VANGUARD 'coming ashore at Old Portsmouth'. I am not sure what their copyright rules are but I suspect there could be restrictions on posting them on this forum.

[qprdave]

Invincible

A lot of newspapers will allow their material to be published.

Before I started posting Obituaries from the Daily Telegraph I e-mailed them for permission and gave them this website to show them that I was not doing it for monetary gain.

They wrote back with their permission as long as I acknowledged the source i.e. The Daily Telegraph.

qprdave

[INVINCIBLE]

Invincible

A lot of newspapers will allow their material to be published.

Before I started posting Obituaries from the Daily Telegraph I e-mailed them for permission and gave them this website to show them that I was not doing it for monetary gain.

They wrote back with their permission as long as I acknowledged the source i.e. The Daily Telegraph.

qprdave

QPRDAVE,

Many thanks for that most useful advice. Copyright is a tricky issue and I have been informed that the 'monetary gain' is not necessarily an escape clause. Nearly all the pictures that I post on the forum are mine or if they are not and there is a copyright restriction I state it so that if/when people download they do at least know the status of the picture. I do have some press photos, which are copyright free providing they are acknowledged. I have downloaded some splendid pictures on this forum, but always kept a note of the source in case I should ever need to acknowledge it. When we upload material on You Tube a pre condition is to ensure it is copyright free or that the copyright holder is happy for it to be posted.

Thanks again for your help - I will follow it.

[INVINCIBLE]

Today in Portsmouth we have the visit of the American destroyer the USS CHURCHILL, the only American warship which has an RN officer onboard as the Navigating Officer. I took the first picture in the morning and the second in the afternoon. I have uploaded the pictures and I hope they are going to display as there appears to be something strange going on with this site at the moment.

The uploaded images have not appeared, but I don't know why.

[INVINCIBLE]

Have just uploaded the same pictures of USS CHURCHILL again and just hope they will display properly this time.

[qprdave]

Thanks for the pictures. Invincible.

I bet there will be a few "Portsmouth Hangovers" in the morning. Had a few of them myself!

qprdave

[astraltrader]

I am not sure what Obama has against Churchill but he has clearly no great love for either Britain or the special relationship.


He and his administration have even done a u-turn over traditional US support for Britain in the dispute with Argentina over the sovereignty of the Falkland Islands. Now they appear to advocate some sort of mediated solution! :(

[INVINCIBLE]

I am not sure what Obama has against Churchill but he has clearly no great love for either Britain or the special relationship.


He and his administration have even done a u-turn over traditional US support for Britain in the dispute with Argentina over the sovereignty of the Falkland Islands. Now they appear to advocate some sort of mediated solution! :(

Terry,

Sadly I believe you are absolutely right. I don't think UK features very high on the radar over there, or at least that was the firm impression I got when I was over there earlier this year (the exception being when they want Servicemen to stand beside them in Afghanistan, Iraq, Israel, Kosovo etc...)

[INVINCIBLE]

I went today to HM Naval base Portsmouth to greet the USS WINSTON S CHURCHILL and ask their permission to take some pictures for this forum. Whilst they were not really aware of the forum they were happy for me to post some pictures. First to reassure everybody she is well protected behind iron bars as you can see. But with a naval ID card I was able to take some closer shots and chat. They did not seem too bothered by Obama's anti Brit stance at the moment.

[Don Boyer]

Invincible:

Great shots of the USS Winston Churchill. Very good of you to take the time to visit and post the photos. Churchill is a ship name long overdue in the US Navy. Only a few of "foriegn" birth have been so honored (Lafayette, Kosciusko, Kamehameha) and I feel Winston would have appreciated it very much if he had been around; after all, he was half American!

For one thing, you can say without doubt the ship carries a name of honor and dignity far above the average. Also note that she carries the upgraded 5" gun (62 cal. vice 54) with much greater range and hitting power.

As a bit of an aside on this thread, in response to earlier comments, I wouldn't worry too much about President Obama's stance, or lack thereof, re Great Britain. He's obviously not all that historically bright in some areas, but you are not the enemy by any means and I don't think our relationship has fundamentally changed any.

To be quite honest, like all Presidents, Obama has strong points and weak points, and they do learn as they go in many cases, but the one thing I find of most interest to me is how many of my "southern" friends (still as racist as ever, but quietly so these post-MLK days) are twitching, eyes rolling back in heads, and falling on the floor in convulsions at the very thought of a black man in the White House.

Even the Republican party has exposed it's nastiest venal, self-serving "self" in reaction to this turn of events. I've gotten literally hundreds of emails bemoaning everything he's done. Our country is doomed, we're going down the tubes, hes' secretly Moslem, he wasn't born in America, and the whole country is dying from the roots. Yet, some 500 days later, the sun still rises in the east and sets in the west, America is America, and nothing fundamental that indicates the imminent collapse of democracy and freedom has occurred.

Strange that. I do point out that the great "South" had its chance with Jimmy Carter, and we all saw how that turned out.

And I don't think any desire on Obama's or the government's part to have UK troops in Afghanistan or elsewhere means much either. Being a collection of sovereign nations, if you don't want to be there, you don't have to be.

Frankly, if it was me, I would find much better ways to isolate and kill jihadists than invading other countries in the name of freedom and democracy. It's too expensive and doesn't provide results worth reporting on.

[INVINCIBLE]

Don,

Thank you - it was a great pleasure to talk to some of our friends from across the Atlantic. The USS WINSTON CHURCHILL (Commanding Officer, Commander Juan Orozco USN) is part of the Task Force deployed with the mighty super carrier USS HARRY S. TRUMAN (CSSG 10), which is on passage to the Arabian Gulf. The CHURCHILL was detached from the group to come and see us in the UK, for which we are very grateful. The Navigating Officer onboard is one of ours, Lieutenant Brian Drewett RN.
Thanks for your clear insight and very interesting comments about Obama and events in the USA, they will be interesting to many people on this forum. I am sure that our deep seated special relationship will weather our present problems with BP and the Gulf of Mexico.

[INVINCIBLE]

Don,

On another point I note what you say about the 5-inch gun, up graded to 62 calibre. Does that explain the extra length of her barrel ? Does that add to the range of the gun. It certainly seems very long compared with the elderly 4.5-inch naval guns we work with at the Museum of Naval Firepower. I am not sure of the relative ranges but there must be a considerable difference.

[Don Boyer]

Invincible:

Yes, the increased caliber means increased barrel length. Bore width times caliber divided by 12 will give you the barrel length in feet. 25.8 feet for the 62 cal and 22.5 for the 54 cal, roughly. Range is also improved as is the severity of impact of the shell, but of course some of that is due to the improved powders in use these days. The 4.5 inch gun you refer to I believe was 42 caliber, about a 16 foot barrel.

The Churchill can be proud to have RN representation aboard. Your refer to him as the "navigating officer" and that traditionally means the executive officer, number 2 in command in the USN. If this is the case, it's a first for both our services, I believe.

Regards,

[scjon]

I know this is off topic but please allow me to defend my home region. Sorry to backtrack here, but I have to go back to the post about the "south."
I understand that perhaps that your friends are hiding some type of racism, however to unfairly claim that the south is just a racist as ever is not a true statement. I have black friends that tell me all the time they are far more discriminated against when they are not in the south. One of them actually will go into a very long lecture defining his belief in the fact that the south is far less racist due to historical closeness of the races (meaning blacks and whites are more used to each other) and that you would have to live here for an extended period of time to understand it. I personally have had to wait forever for service at times because I was white. Hard to be racist when you have been discriminated against. Some people do go the other way though and become very racist, but not many.

Now that we have that out of the way, we'll move on to Barack Obama. I am white. I do not agree with 90% of Obama's policies. I live in the south. Does that make me a racist? Because according to the news if you don't agree with Obama then you are a racist. That is unfair. It is using political correctness to run a nation without allowing any objection. We may as well outlaw criticism of the government. I can give you plenty of reasons I don't like Obama that have nothing to do with his race. He should not get a free pass just because he is black.

Now that last bit about Jimmy Carter. That was a our big chance?
If we define the south as being the former confederate states then I think you could pick from a far more assorted list of presidents. The only reason to pick Carter to me would be you are trying to make it an insult? How about some of these guys?
George Washington
Thomas Jefferson
James Madison
James Monroe
Andrew Jackson
Without Jefferson and Washington at a minimum there wouldn't even be a United States! Or even more recently...
Lyndon Johnson
Bill Clinton
George W. Bush
Not saying the last three were great but they certainly were better than Carter and they were not chosen as your example of the south's big chance.
So that part seemed quite condescending to me.

Not singling you out Don, because I respect you very much and enjoy your posts on this forum probably more than most anyone else because we have the same theater interests. But the comments did offend me as they are most untrue and seems based upon a sampling. It sounds like nothing that I know of reality here in the "south". I hope you are not offended by my reply.
But I felt compelled to respond with a defense of the south that I know.

[qprdave]

I think that we should let this topic drop. This is not a thread about American Racism or American Presidents. If their are any comments posted that are off topic, they will be removed.

It's way off topic for a thread about the visits of U.S Navy ships to the UK.

qprdave

[chris westwood]

to get things back on topic(sort of) and to add a bit of levity.
between 1969-70 I was the singer in the house band of a brothel in Glasgow: we played mainly blues and soul. It was brilliant when the US navy lads from Holy Loch were in town, because they enjoyed the music as well as the other attractions on offer.
If any ex USN posters on here were around at the time, the place was Carr's Keg in St George's Cross. Ostensibly it was a pub, but it had accommodation as it were, upstairs.

[Don Boyer]

Darn! I NEVER got the good duty stations...sigh! :)

[INVINCIBLE]

I think that we should let this topic drop. This is not a thread about American Racism or American Presidents. If their are any comments posted they will be removed.

It's way off topic for a thread about the visits of U.S Navy ships to the UK.

qprdave

Dave,

So sorry if I caused this thread to drift a little out of station, but we have enjoyed an excellent visit by the USS WINSTON S CHURCHILL here in Portsmouth and I am sure they leave with very happy memories of their time in UK.

[qprdave]

That's ok Invincible.

It is so easy to get off topic. I hope that this becomes a long serving thread with the amount of US Ships that seems to visit the UK. It would also be nice if members had a dig around to see what they can come up with as far as photos for this thread. After all the U.S.N. has been visiting the UK almost as long as the United States has been in existence

[qprdave]

Here are two reports. USS Constitution and USS John Adams at Portsmouth in 1811.Unfortunately, no camera was there to report the events

[INVINCIBLE]

Dave,

We also have the "visit" of John Paul Jones in the USS RANGER to Whitehaven in 1778! Sadly Whitehaven is much in the news at the moment following the massacre there.

[Powers]

A few snapshots of USS Guadalcanal leaving Devonport on 15 Feb 1982.

Regards..........Paul

[qprdave]

Arrival of the Battleship USS Colorado at Portsmouth

Published in The London Times on January 5, 1924

[astraltrader]

A picture of the Battleship Colorado taken in 1924.

[qprdave]

Thanks Terry.

It does make a difference seeing the ship from just reading about her

Dave

[alanbenn]

Nice photo Terry, certainly looked awesome didn't they?

Don't suppose we'll see the likes of them again.

Regards
Alan

[John Odom]

No, those days are long past. Those ships are dwarfed by a modern CVN.

[astraltrader]

In size maybe John but not in character!

[qprdave]

USN Midshipmen's Cruise to U.K. 1948

Here is how The Times reported the visit. It was, in fact, 1947 and not 1948 that the visit took place

Dave

I have move Post#1 to Post #5, above, to here as IMO it is the right place for it to be.

[INVINCIBLE]

We have another USN ship visiting us in Portsmouth at the moment, the USS HENSON. Not sure exactly what her funtion is or her usual area of deployment but perhaps some USN expert can explain.

[John Odom]

USNS Henson is an Oceanographic research vessel.

[Don Boyer]

The USNS Henson, T-AGS 63, is indeed an oceanographic research-dedicated ship, lacking the massive attenna arrays of some former US Navy AOGRs and many ships from a certain foreign country in particular whose "oceanographic research" was of a bit different nature. Henson was completed in 1998 and is operated by the Military Sealift Command. (Note she is not "USS".) She operates for the Naval Meteorology and Oceanography Command under contract and is "...intended to conduct physical, chemical, and biological oceanography; multi-discipline environmental investigations; ocean engineering and marine acoustics research; coastal hydrgraphic surveys; marine geology and geophysics research; and bathymetric, gravity, and magnetic surveys in deep ocean and coastal areas." [The Naval Institute Guide to Combat Fleets of the World, 15th Ed., 2007, p. 938-9.] (One of the class has been converted to a Missile Test Range ship for monitoring missile tests.)

I think that means Henson does scientific stuff! :rolleyes:

[steve roberts]

Hi Don.I take it from your extensive and detailed reply,she basically boils down to an AGI?
Many Regards Steve.

[INVINCIBLE]

The USNS Henson, T-AGS 63, is indeed an oceanographic research-dedicated ship, lacking the massive attenna arrays of some former US Navy AOGRs and many ships from a certain foreign country in particular whose "oceanographic research" was of a bit different nature. Henson was completed in 1998 and is operated by the Military Sealift Command. (Note she is not "USS".) She operates for the Naval Meteorology and Oceanography Command under contract and is "...intended to conduct physical, chemical, and biological oceanography; multi-discipline environmental investigations; ocean engineering and marine acoustics research; coastal hydrgraphic surveys; marine geology and geophysics research; and bathymetric, gravity, and magnetic surveys in deep ocean and coastal areas." [The Naval Institute Guide to Combat Fleets of the World, 15th Ed., 2007, p. 938-9.] (One of the class has been converted to a Missile Test Range ship for monitoring missile tests.)

I think that means Henson does scientific stuff! :rolleyes:

Don,

Many thanks for that information. Yes I was puzzled that she was not a 'USS' ship and had the wording 'US NAVAL SHIP HENSON' on her bow. Now I have the explanation.

[Don Boyer]

Steve:

There is that fine line between dedicated "real" oceanographic ships and those so titled but actually in the intelligence collecting business. Real intelligencers tend to have antenna arrays out the gazoo, although those plastic domes we see so much nowadays to protect "sensitive instruments" can hide a multitude of sins. Henson is more pure science as built and as used, and of course if she has intelligence roles, those are buried deep in the black projects budget that we'll never see or hear about unless there's trouble. With a crew composed of civilians under contract, the presence of CIA, NSA or NRO would go unnoticed.

Also, the bottom of the ocean and all its bumps and lumps and currents and temperatures are information vital to today's naval operations as weapons and submarines become more capable and deep-ranging. In a sense oceanographic data is raw intelligence of great real-time importance, like the maps of old and the charts of the sea surface so important to navigating your warships in harm's way, and just as importantly out of harm's way back in the day and today as well. We need three-dimensional ocean data and intelligence like never before in naval history.

[steve roberts]

Hi Don.Thank you for your answer.I believe I read that the Soviet Navy was strong on Hydro-graphic research,and actually did have a very detailed oceanographic route through the Rekannes ridge off Iceland(No it wasn't Tom Clancy!!) If he was allowed to write freely about it,there must have been some truth in the rumour.So no doubt that line of work is just as important today as it was in the 1960's.There is really very little we know about the sea bed,underwater ridges etc.
Many Many Regards Steve

[Mitch Hinde]

A rather poor snapshot of MOUNT WHITNEY at Devonport in the 1980's - she's been around for a while now!

Hi All
There is a good pic of MOUNT WHITNEY and a description in the current issue of WARSHIP WORLD.

Mitch Hinde

[Abbeywood.]

As my opening contribution to this site and to this thread I would pose three questions:-
1) Having read of the 1947 visits of 'New Jersey' and 'Wisconsin' which are not in my memory, as a youngster,(pre-teens), I do remember the visit of 'Missouri' but, alas, I cannot put a date to it. (1950-ish. ?).
2) Can anyone offer a date of the visit of the 'Forrestal' to the Port of Southampton, again I think somewhen during the 1950's. I seem to remember she berthed alongside in the old Ocean Terminal Basin, after the repositioning of several dock-side cranes to accomodate her overhang.
3) Following the usual habit of naming 'carriers after US Presidents, dead, or otherwise, can we expect to see a William F. Clinton, a George W. Bush,
or even a Barack Hussain Obama, in the future.

Greetings to you all, Abbeywood.

[Powers]

According to the website, 'US, Australian and Canadian Aircraft Carriers at Portsmouth and Southampton 1957 - 1981', the USS Forrestal was at Southampton 6 October 1957.

There is, of course, a US carrier already named USS George H W Bush.

Regards.....Paul

[Don Boyer]

Abbeywood:

As was said in another post, there is already a George H.W. Bush. CVN-78 will be Gerald Ford, a man not only not elected to the Presidency, but not elected to the Vice Presidency either, and a non-entity in both positions in my opinion. We won't be seeing a Richard M. Nixon for sure, and I doubt any "modern" President. I wish the navy would go back to not pandering to policticians and put the old names for carriers back online, but unfortunately, many have already been given to LHAs/LHDs. Submarines will continue the old battleship tradition of being named for states, with the Virginia class. American cruisers have bounced around from states to cities to old aircraft carrier names, with the occasional person thrown in (from having re-designated some DDGs as CGs in the 70s and 80s in order to look good when the former Soviets were calling everything a "cruiser") but none are pending construction.

With the Zumwalt design down the drain, hopefully we don't need to find any Admiral's to name ships for as after Nimitz, Halsey and Spruance and Burke, the list is pretty thin.

The navy has, however, remained adamant that destroyers are named for distinguished naval and marine officers and enlisted personnel who have distinguisded themselves in service, usually in combat service. Would they would be as consistent elsewhere.

[Abbeywood.]

According to the website, 'US, Australian and Canadian Aircraft Carriers at Portsmouth and Southampton 1957 - 1981', the USS Forrestal was at Southampton 6 October 1957.

There is, of course, a US carrier already named USS George H W Bush.

Regards.....Paul

Thanks for that snippet of info', Powers. Apparently an epistle from Paul to Peter, very biblical.
I was aware of the George H.W. Bush and I was reluctant to even suggest George (and plain), W. Bush but there you go, and as for Richard M. Nixon, I doubt he was ever 'on the radar' such was his contribution to honesty and integrity in political life.
My regards, Pete'

[Don Boyer]

According to the chronology in Paul Stilwell's "Battleship Missouri: An Illustrated History" The USS Missouri visited England twice in her early career. From June 17 - 25, 1949, she was moored in Portsmouth after a brief period at anchor off Spithead. At the time she was the flagship of the US Atlantic Fleet with Admiral William H.P. Blandy on board (as a Vice Admiral he had commanded "Operation Crossroads" the atomic bomb tests at Bikini in 1946. Prior to that he had been Chief of the navy's Bureau of Ordnance in WWII).

Missouri again visited England from July 9-16, 1952 and moored at Portland along with her sister ship USS Wisconsin and the heavy cruiser Des Moines and light cruiser Macon.

[Abbeywood.]

According to the chronology in Paul Stilwell's "Battleship Missouri: An Illustrated History" The USS Missouri visited England twice in her early career. From June 17 - 25, 1949, she was moored in Portsmouth after a brief period at anchor off Spithead. At the time she was the flagship of the US Atlantic Fleet with Admiral William H.P. Blandy on board (as a Vice Admiral he had commanded "Operation Crossroads" the atomic bomb tests at Bikini in 1946. Prior to that he had been Chief of the navy's Bureau of Ordnance in WWII).

Missouri again visited England from July 9-16, 1952 and moored at Portland along with her sister ship USS Wisconsin and the heavy cruiser Des Moines and light cruiser Macon.

Good morning, Don. (Well it is here in the UK). Thank you for the info' regarding 'Missouri', the given dates of which, fit nicely in my wayward memory, (I would have been 11 years old at that time, - 1949)
It's quite amazing that I only joined this site a week ago and the amount of info' i've gleaned from it is quite astounding. I'm glad I joined.
My regards to all who have responded to my queries, again many thanks.
Abbeywood