Admiral Lord Nelson

[herakles]

I am sitting here shaking with rage.

At another forum I belong to, some American clown has suggested that Nelson was gay. Then followed 3 pages of complete drivel, quoting the so-stated - and wrong - final words to Hardy etc.

I wasn't speechless. I did reply.

The only post I agreed with was from one of us who said that he defied anyone calling Wellington gay.

:eek:

[The Sailor]

I think with all the dames Nelson had stashed everywhere that he kinda proved he wasn't gay.
Liked a bit of crumpet old Horatio. Typical sailor.


One of the dames below.

[herakles]

Doesn't anyone at this forum have ANY opinions? Why is it that no-one contributes things to the threads?

Why am I bothering to write them?

[The Sailor]

Very disappointing isn't it? I've never seen anything like it. I've researched just about everything I can think of and got a post together about it with pics and I get messages from different senior members telling me to keep posting and congratulating me for helping to get the forum going, but except for one or two, they don't do anything themselves. It is like a forum in abstract or in another dimention.
What is the real situation here?

[herakles]

This forum seems to have a large membership but I feel most of them are inactive. Come here, write once about their grandfather, then go again.

How many active members do you think there are Sailor?

The only comments I seem to get in my threads are from Admin - and they have to be here.

[AlZictorini]

Love it......Have you guys ever seen "Carry on whinging". We must all try harder. Challenge someone to better your posts lads. LOL:)

[herakles]

Well said AlZictorini. And here was I expecting someone to support my anger at the insult to the great man. I reckon that's worth a whinge.

[AlZictorini]

You are quite correct herakles, here's a toast to Lord Nelson "God Bless Him", also, as its Saturday (best stick to tradition), another toast to "Sweethearts and wives (may they never meet)".

[herakles]

I'll drink to both of them!

[Harley]

While complaining about lack of activity on a forum is very valid (why join if all you're going to do is read?), just because you have an opinion doesn't mean you have to state it. Take the muppet producing mountains of guff saying Nelson's gay. If he puts that much effort into coming to that conclusion then there's no point trying to point him straight (pardon the pun). One day the person in question may find a decent biography of Nelson and take it to heart, but considering the majority of people either assume Nelson was not gay, or couldn't care about his sexuality, there's no need to get riled about it.
Of course Herakles, good on you for taking a principled stand.

Might be a plan to check the Nelson page on Wikipedia and make sure it hasn't been turned into a description of how HMS "Victory" was a floating gay bar at Trafalgar...(hurries away to investigate)

Harley

[herakles]

I take your point Harley and I'm glad you agree that to belong to a forum and not contribute is rather pointless.

Had the allegation been made about just about anyone else I would have ignored it. But NOT Nelson.

And I daren't check Wiki on the floating Gay bar theory!!!!!!

[The Sailor]

What the? People are posting stuff. I thought I was on the wrong forum for a moment. I don't know what to answer first. This is your fault Herk. You should have let sleeping dogs lie.

Harley, everyone should join in where they can. It is a forum for all not just a couple like it has been lately. Herk has worked pretty hard to project this forum and he and I felt like a whinge.

It is a sailor's right to whinge Al.

There is a story that Lord Nelson's body was preserved in a barrel of brandy for the journey to England. It is said that the sailors drank the brandy afterwards.

[herakles]

That story is certainly true Sailor.

Such was the regard for the man that a square was named in his honour in London and a large statue of him erected there. Since then, there has been considerable debate as to what other statues should be placed in this square. There is still one unused plinth and many suggestions made recently as to who should be placed on it, some of them ridiculous.

These days it seems, few seem to know about Nelson's remarkable exploits or the battle of Trafalgar, let alone any of the others.

[The Sailor]

Did you ever meet him Rusty?

[Aboukir]

Hi All,
I have to contribute to this thread. Lord Horatio was my childhood hero! being Norfolk born he was to every Norfolkman with salt water in his veins the perfect fighting legend.
Then, in later life while researching my family here in King's Lynn I noted with, at first great alarm that one of my family was actually married by the great man himself?? In 1870 the registar of births, marriaged and deaths in KL was indeed Horatio Nelson. Now we all know that it wasn't THE Horatio because he was pickled in 1805, but was a relative, what a story?
Now a conundrum for you Nelson buffs....I believe he had a distant cousin named Sydney Nelson who also served in our glorious Navy in the WW1? does any one have anything on Sid please?
Aboukir

[Aboukir]

Oh yes indeed Sailor, having been on Victory several times and experienced the true glory of the man and having that story about being pickled in the brandy preached by all the guides. It would appear that he was indeed submerged in the elixir of life all except the one spot where his "butt" was tight pressed against the barrel.
Aboukir

[Melv.]

......and picking up on the non posting bit. Some people (me) do go away but come back again when time permits but I do take the point about contribution being the life blood of any forum for like minded people.
The thing I find irritating most is when you answer a query and the originator of that question never comes back to you.

I would be very wary of people who write articles about Lord Nelson being Gay as they show a distinct lack of any knowledge or history of the person they are writing about. He was in fact a rampant Womaniser! :D

[herakles]

Thanks for your thoughts. It's good someone is posting Melv!

I like to think - and hope - that this place IS a forum for discussion and not just a receiving centre for people researching their ancestors.

The focus of the forum - world navy ships - is vast. This area of knowledge is so amazingly rich.

Yet I go to a lot of time and trouble putting together a strand only to discover that not a single member is moved enough to even comment on it.

Mostly, things I place here are answered by only one man. It's obvious who that is.

I am certain that quite a few members have wide experience that if shared would be most enlightening.

Sometimes I wonder if members don't realise that they can comment. That they are allowed to. Perhaps they feel that expertise is a necessary qualification for comment. Of course it isn't.

I live in hope that the forum will grow and become stimulating and useful. But my hope is fading. Fast.

Lastly, your comments on the ignorance of someone who would even consider Nelson being gay are spot on. I'm comfortable with people who are homosexual. It is after all a genetic thing and not a matter of choice. I didn't put this thread here to bash gays. But to suggest Nelson was in their ranks shows a very large ignorance.

Recognising the importance of Nelson in British history and especially wrt the RN, I had expected members would be pushing others aside to get in with a post defending this icon of Britain. But instead the thread was ignored. It's symptomatic of the interest in this being a forum.

:confused:

[Batstiger]

Just to put the record straight I haven't bothered replying to this thread, the reason being that I have treated the suggestion with the contempt it fully deserves and that is by ignoring it altogether!

Bob.

[herakles]

Thanks Bob. I understand fully what you mean.

:)

[BB60]

While complaining about lack of activity on a forum is very valid (why join if all you're going to do is read?), just because you have an opinion doesn't mean you have to state it.

I am of the opinion that it is better to remain quiet and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt. With this in mind, I have have refrained from commenting on subjects that I have little or no knowledge of, as this forum is heavily weighted toward the Royal Navy and ships of the Commonwealth and I am not greatly conversant where either is concerned. Instead, I read and use this forum to expand my knowledge, where it's main topic is concerned and commenting where it is appropriate for my proficiency level. By doing this, I feel that I do not impact the forum negatively by demonstrating myself as being an American clown.

[herakles]

Jeff, Your contributions are always interesting to me.

I accept that no-one should talk about things they know little or nothing about. But it is a forum nonetheless and can only continue to exist if members interact with each other. That's something you do very well.

And you do live in the country with the biggest navy in the world!

I too enjoy expanding my knowledge. Being an Australian, I know little of the Royal Navy so I find that quite a lot of what happens here interesting.

In fact as my experience is all Army, my knowledge of the Senior Service is quite limited in general.

[cissystar650]

I came across this site whilst trying to learn more about the Royal Navy. Yes, initially because most of my ancestors were Seamen, but now I read the threads because they are informed and interesting.

I rarely comment because, at this stage, I know very little and have no expertise to offer.

It can also be daunting to enter into a 'conversation' when it is between people who have obviously been here a while.

In future I'll make an "I read it" comment ;)

Cissy

[herakles]

You are very welcome cissystar.

No one here has perfect expertise. Most of us have little.

I hope you enjoy the forum and I look forward to you joining the discussions.

[astraltrader]

My position is exactly the same as Bobs. I first noticed this thread when I joined a couple of weeks ago and immediately changed to a subject with an element of truth in it. I only came back to it because the number of contributors have kept increasing!
Anyway I thought I would join in the more interesting subject of contributing to the forum. I have been interested in military history with a particular emphasis on naval and maritime for 30 years and more. There is a lot I can and will contribute. However I have only been a member here for a couple of weeks and have been trying to ease myself in gently without stepping on the toes of the legions of moderators that inhabit this planet! I have to agree with Melv that the thing I do find irritating is when you answer a query and the originator of that question or the other contributors dont come back to you - or even acknowledge that you have arrived!
Speaking frankly as a new member a few of you such as The Sailor, John Brown and a few others have made me feel welcome but as far as some of you other established members on here I might as well be invisible!
I am saying this not to moan or complain as I am sure that gradually I will get to know and communicate with the rest of you. It is just as Cissystar was alluding to some people can find it intimidating and even daunting to enter into a 'conversation' when it is between people who have obviously been here a while...
Anyhow I look forward to contributing further to a forum that I believe has been well set up/thought out and have mentioned all this in response to Herakles "Why is it that no-one contributes things to the threads?"

[herakles]

First: I don't mind in the least that my Nelson thread has been taken over. Because we are now discussing something very important to the future of the forum.

I had told my Army mates to have a look here and one of them came back to me and said that he was disappointed there was nothing on HMAS Australia, a ship his brother served in and with a great chunk of Aussie history involved. I hardly knew anything about the ship so I spent my day researching it. Put a thread together and posted it. For him. You get my point? Anyone can do that. And I think should. Have a look at the thread and judge it for yourself. No one has looked at it yet!!

I'm happy doing things like this. As well, by reading some of the threads posted here, I am learning a lot about a subject I don't know a great deal about.

The forum is of course as good as the members make it. You shouldn't be nervous contributing here. As far as I'm concerned, any posting is a good one.
Even if it only says that you enjoyed reading about that topic.

With your knowledge database astraltrader, you should be sharing this with us. Why wait? What are you waiting for?

Both Sailor and I are saddened that the only people who respond to our threads are each other - on the whole.

I was never welcomed when I joined - except by Sailor. I see this as an important role for the moderators to do. I am a little embarrassed doing it but I do because no-one seems to want to.

So, just what are the moderators here for? Removal of spam? Yes. But one sat there today for hours and was not removed because the mods were all asleep at the time. I wasn't. For 12 hours of the day there isn't a mod available.

Mods should be doing rather more to lubricate this place.

This is a GOOD forum. The area of knowledge is vast and interesting. It's well worth keeping the forum alive. I for one hope it grows and grows. But its future is in ALL of our hands. And that means members writing!!!

[Aboukir]

Because of the historical nature of the original point of this thread "was Nelson gay" we can only comment on the known recorded facts. Nelson was married and he had a Mistress and we are lead to believe a daughter. But that I suppose does not detract from the posibility that he "swung both ways".
As I remarked in an earlier post in this thread, I am researching the great man's family, not Horatio's direct line but his branches. I really want to endorse Melvs point about him being a womaniser because there is a wealth of info available of Nelsons supposed illigitiamate hoards all over the world.
But the Navy has always told the story's of THE GOLDEN RIVETT and I don't believe it was confined to below decks, and what did go on when they had you "over a barrel"?
England expects!............what?
Aboukir

[astraltrader]

Thanks for the reply Herk. I wasn`t trying to say I was nervous about posting - after all I have posted 23 or so bits and peices since I joined just over a fortnight ago. I was just trying to explain why I was easing myself in to the forum and more importantly agreeing that it is frustrating when others dont seem to react or acknowledge posts!

[BB60]

I was never welcomed when I joined - except by Sailor. I see this as an important role for the moderators to do. I am a little embarrassed doing it but I do because no-one seems to want to.

So, just what are the moderators here for? Removal of spam? Yes. But one sat there today for hours and was not removed because the mods were all asleep at the time. I wasn't. For 12 hours of the day there isn't a mod available.

Mods should be doing rather more to lubricate this place.

This is a GOOD forum. The area of knowledge is vast and interesting. It's well worth keeping the forum alive. I for one hope it grows and grows. But its future is in ALL of our hands. And that means members writing!!!

Herk,

I, too, enjoy your post and get much from them. I know that when I read what you have to say, I will find it interesting.

Welcoming new members is an important thing, even if it is no more than to say Howdy. (Now how many of you Brits or Ozzies are going to use that word?)

I agree that active members are required.

This is new a forum, give it time.

[astraltrader]

Anyway back to the allegations of Nelson being gay. Not having read the rubbish written by the American that Herakles referred to - I suspect that some of it was probably based on or around the famous "Kiss me, Hardy" quotation. According to some historians he in fact whispered "Kismet, Hardy".
Kismet was a common term for fate.

[herakles]

Here's how it started. I joined a forum Napoleonic somethingorother. Mostly American. First thing I see is a thread about Nelson being gay. Seems the poster read a book that suggested it and he thought it could be possible. Many other posters seemed to support this absurd idea or they wanted to defend their own gayness. Only one poster made sense and I quoted him in my original post here on this. Yes, what Nelson's supposed to have said to Hardy was used. I jumped in, made a dramatic post and left - never to return again.

Shirt lifting was clearly practised in the navy. I assume it still is. Despite it being a hanging offence once. Then there was the matter of having several squeakers on board and what might have happened to them. If we are to believe O'Brian (and who would dare not!!), even some officers practised it.

But NOT Nelson!

And Howdy Jeff!

[BB60]

And Howdy Jeff!
Good try, but the accent's not right.

Shirt lifting? Slang for homosexual behavior?

[herakles]

Ha! Perhaps I should have said: G'Day Jeff!

Now you know what shirt lifting means! Pillow biter is another term - of many.

But pillow biting would not apply in the Navy what with hammocks etc.

[romft1945]

Quite agree with your comments Terry like you have not been here long and still looking around ,aswell as giving small amounts of knowledge and asking for some.Yes iam researching both my father and grandfathers naval history and to date have found this site to be the best site by far, for posting stories and reading the same.The more I find out the more I can post and as yet have not started to post about my chequered naval time and anyway matelots would not be happy if they never moaned would they:mad:

P.S. I promise to try harder SIR:eek:
By the way this reply was Terrys comment lunchtime ROM

[Blackpool]

As someone who loves various Forums, and someone who joined this one, purely to find out about his ancestors, and possibly was the provokateur of the comment by the Commodore, I thought I'd take time out to answer.
I'm sure people out there will find this site through hundreds of different channels, for loads of different reasons. Many, at a guess will have a Naval career history, be currently serving, or have a real interest in various ships. These will probably join in with all the threads with gusto.
Then there's us. Those who find you with a specific problem that you may be able to answer, and try as best we can to break into what seems a daunting world of facts and figures. "Daunting" I hear you all say....yep, daunting.
I've now discovered my great grandfather was a "Seaman Rigger" on a "third rate ship" with a "Forecastle" with "4 x 18 pdrs"....aren't I a lucky descendant.
No, in all honesty I've now been able to add a significant amount of data to my family research, plotting in shore leave with the conception of every single child!! She was a good wife! Unfortunately he wasn't so good, and the letter I recieved about 7 years ago about someone with the same name in Gibralta now makes sense!!
I've yet to work out where he sailed to but through this site have at least half the ships served on, details now. Thanks to all for that.
Suggestion from this end would be to try to highlight the fact that you are here to help others in an understandable way. Example, the intro to the New Members section states "The place to introduce yourself to our community". How about, "Please introduce yourself here, whatever your reason for the visit, general interest in ships, or family research!" lol.
The first message currently would put most people off posting as it semi indicates you guys are getting a bit p****d off with the research bit. I also run sites similar to this, forums in other words, and pray for any postings, whatever they bring!
How about a success stories board??
Today I recieved a book from dear old amazon, written originally in 1853, (I got the softback version, the £3,200 for hardback was beyond me) which outlined the diary the captain kept, during the years my great great grandfather served under him. No mention, but what an insight into his life!!
Up till that point I thought serving on HMS Meander was a steel grey thing with a gun up front that I've seen in Plymouth Sound. Reading all about this wooden sailing ship sailing around canibal and pirate infested waters was superb!
Thanks site.
Paul

[kc]

Great post!

It's good for us to know about your experiences with the forum. I would repeat again that we are a very young forum, only going online in July, but with enough of a readership on our previous (or sister) site to bring in a decent amount of interest. We are still learning and suggestions as to how to improve the site are always welcome.

Great that you got some info for your own research too.

[herakles]

Well romft1945, I for one look forward to hearing your stories! Settle in quickly!

It's great that there are members here that can help others fill in gaps to do with their family. It's surely an important part of this forum.

I'm here to learn. And I'm doing that. My naval experience was restricted to sailing Mirrors and suffering DUKW's in army training. So I've a lot to learn.

I thought your suggestions were excellent Blackpool. I'm certain they've been noted.

3200 pounds for a book? OMG!!

We are bound by one goal. We all want this forum to be a great success.

[romft1945]

Thanks they will come in time but I see looking at the members list we have a few but did the majority not go to school to learn to read and write as very few of them have read or written post's amI being to cynical,
Rom:rolleyes:

[herakles]

Quite a few join up solely to get info. on a member of their family then disappear again. I'm sure the don't even read anything here. Let alone comment.

Well, this is a use the forum is put to. Drawing on the expertise and knowledge some members have.

Of course we also need plenty of people who read everything, comment on them and supply new threads themselves. We don't have too many of these people yet.

[qprdave]

I was quite astounded about "Nelson Being Gay". Until I read that it was an American that stated it.

Living in the US for the last seven yrs I have reach the conclusion that Americans either take items from history and then look for any vague connection to the US and then exploit it. (The Movie about the taking of the enigma machine for one). If there is no connection then they try to denigrate it. This seems to me a typical example. Although I am surprised to find that Nelson's 8th Cousin 100 times removed didn't travel across on the Mayflower!!!!!!

[herakles]

What you say does seem to be what sometimes happens qprdave.

One only has to look at an American film that has a history aspect!

:rolleyes:

[romft1945]

Sorry to be so cynical again but Audy Murphy seems to come to mind although the most decorated soldier of the USA in ww11 he seemed to win it single handed along side the other national hero,John Wayne opps!!!:eek:

[herakles]

There's one film that has Audy Murphy firing a large Browning air cooled machine gun from the hip! Anyone foolish enough to try that would be lucky to escape with a broken hip!

Then there's the film of the Americans winning at Tobruk. When they hadn't yet declared war on the Nazis.

Hmmmmmm

[cissystar650]

On the subject of Nelson, I came across the following quotes of his from The Biography of Admiral Horatio Nelson:

I could not tread these perilous paths in safety, if I did not keep a saving sense of humor.



Our country will, I believe, sooner forgive an officer for attacking an enemy than for letting it alone.
3 May 1794, the attack on Bastin.


I cannot, if I am in the field of glory, be kept out of sight: wherever there is anything to be done, there Providence is sure to direct my steps.
1797.


If I had been censured every time I have run my ship, or fleets under my command, into great danger, I should have long ago been out of the Service and never in the House of Peers.
March 1805.


There are a lot more... here: http://www.napoleonguide.com/aquote_nelson.htm

Nothing about being a homosexual though :p

[tomsam]

Hi All..
Well I Have never seen so much heated reaction to a post. And one wonders why? This American guy was, as you say Herk, making a suggestion. That is his opinion. He could have suggested Nelson was a vegetarian.As long as the Yank wasn't being homophobic in his comments, DOES IT MATTER!. It was how he interpreted his observations however misguided they were.
I am not gay but realise that many people in our armed forces today are gay.
I have to live with it. They do a fantastic job and with a brave heart. They certainly do not .. as others have suggested.. lob handbags at the enemy.Please put this one to rest and let us channel our energies into more productive information sharing and not just natter.
I'll talk later on something that interests me more.
Tomsam

[cissystar650]

Hi Tomsam

Personally I have found the whole thread interesting, and it has led me to read a lot more about Nelson. I don't think anyone has said the 'american in question' isn't entitled to an opinion, nor has anyone shown any homophobic tendencies in their replies. Debating as to whether or not one of our National Heroes was homosexual or not, i don't think qualifies us as being anti gay?

so, in the scheme of things, no, it doesn't matter one bit whether he was gay or not...but it makes for an interesting debate.

[BB60]

Sorry to be so cynical again but Audy Murphy seems to come to mind although the most decorated soldier of the USA in ww11 he seemed to win it single handed along side the other national hero,John Wayne opps!!!:eek:
Apparently there is some veracity to Audie Murphy's exploits. They don't hand out that little medal on the blue ribbon in Cracker Jack boxes.


There's one film that has Audy Murphy firing a large Browning air cooled machine gun from the hip! Anyone foolish enough to try that would be lucky to escape with a broken hip!


I've seen a picture of D. Eisenhower firing one from the hip. I'm trying to find it. He is wearing a service uniform and a knee lenghth coat with a towel around the barrel. He did not look comfortable doing it.

[The Sailor]

Is that the best you can do Alabama? They're shootin' at America and Old Glory.
As America's deputy sheriff, I'll lurk around and give you a hand, but you have to shoot first.

[BB60]

Okay, I found the pic. It shows Ike firing a M1919 .30 cal, not a .50, from the hip.
It is in US Army Handbook 1939-1945, by George Forty, pg 126.

[herakles]

Well done Jeff. Can you post the picture?

[BB60]

Is that the best you can do Alabama? They're shootin' at America and Old Glory.
As America's deputy sheriff, I'll lurk around and give you a hand, but you have to shoot first.

Okay, Graeme. Not really wanting to hijack the thread more than necessary. Here is is his MoH citation. Please note the words "alone" and "single-handed" found in the citation. Apparently the MoH action depicted in his autobiographical movie was more than fanciful Hollywood bravado.

2d Lt. Murphy commanded Company B, which was attacked by 6 tanks and waves of infantry. 2d Lt. Murphy ordered his men to withdraw to prepared positions in a woods, while he remained forward at his command post and continued to give fire directions to the artillery by telephone. Behind him, to his right, 1 of our tank destroyers received a direct hit and began to burn. Its crew withdrew to the woods. 2d Lt. Murphy continued to direct artillery fire which killed large numbers of the advancing enemy infantry. With the enemy tanks abreast of his position, 2d Lt. Murphy climbed on the burning tank destroyer, which was in danger of blowing up at any moment, and employed its .50 caliber machine gun against the enemy. He was alone and exposed to German fire from 3 sides, but his deadly fire killed dozens of Germans and caused their infantry attack to waver. The enemy tanks, losing infantry support, began to fall back. For an hour the Germans tried every available weapon to eliminate 2d Lt. Murphy, but he continued to hold his position and wiped out a squad which was trying to creep up unnoticed on his right flank. Germans reached as close as 10 yards, only to be mowed down by his fire. He received a leg wound, but ignored it and continued the single-handed fight until his ammunition was exhausted. He then made his way to his company, refused medical attention, and organized the company in a counterattack which forced the Germans to withdraw. His directing of artillery fire wiped out many of the enemy; he killed or wounded about 50. 2d Lt. Murphy's indomitable courage and his refusal to give an inch of ground saved his company from possible encirclement and destruction, and enabled it to hold the woods which had been the enemy's objective.

Y'all can return to the discussion of Adm Nelson's sexual proclivities.

[herakles]

An excellent description of an extremely brave man's actions Jeff.

I most certainly wasn't trying to denigrate Murphy. I was explaining that in the Hollywood version, he performs miracles that couldn't happen in real life. But that's Hollywood!

[johnny07]

Doesn't anyone at this forum have ANY opinions? Why is it that no-one contributes things to the threads?

Why am I bothering to write them?

Write to me mate, I have an opinion on everything.

[johnny07]

That story is certainly true Sailor.

Such was the regard for the man that a square was named in his honour in London and a large statue of him erected there. Since then, there has been considerable debate as to what other statues should be placed in this square. There is still one unused plinth and many suggestions made recently as to who should be placed on it, some of them ridiculous.

These days it seems, few seem to know about Nelson's remarkable exploits or the battle of Trafalgar, let alone any of the others.

Nelson does have something named after him in London. So does Lord Nelson.

[johnny07]

If I see a film or something on tv showing the death of Nelson I still have a good cry and I'm over 70. He probably was gay but in those days it ment being happy, jolly and carefree, it was a nice word but since the homosexuals stole it now means something more sinister. :(

[Dave Hutson]

If I see a film or something on tv showing the death of Nelson I still have a good cry and I'm over 70. He probably was gay but in those days it ment being happy, jolly and carefree, it was a nice word but since the homosexuals stole it now means something more sinister. :(

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: Don't go there Nobby - that will open a whole new bag of worm:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: