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TheDigger
10-01-2008, 09:33
General Information

A PT boat was a motor torpedo boat (hull classification symbol "PT", for "Patrol Torpedo"), a small, fast vessel used by the United States Navy in World War II to attack larger surface ships. The PT boat squadrons were nicknamed "the mosquito fleet".

Torpedo boats were first developed in the early 20th century as an inexpensive way to deliver torpedoes which could destroy ships as heavy as battleships without the massive weight necessary for large caliber guns. By WWII, the initial mission of the American PT boats was to battle destroyers, which themselves were a shortened name for "torpedo boat destroyers".

Though many would question the military effectiveness of the boats in this role, their psychological impact in deterring Japanese attacks was significant.
The Navy was short on larger ships as they were just starting the manufacturing of a massive naval fleet which would come later in the war, and wood construction made strategic materials such as steel available for other uses. Later in the war, the boats were much more effective as gunboats against targets their own size, such as armored barges that the Japanese used to shuttle troops and supplies between islands.

PT Class history

The US Navy requested a competitive bid for several different concepts of torpedo boats. This competition led to eight prototype boats built to compete in the 2 different classes. The first class was to be for 55 foot boats, and the second class to be for 70 foot boats.

The resulting PT boat designs were the product of a small cadre of respected naval architects and the Navy. Henry R Sutphen of Electric Launch Company ("Elco") and his Elco designers Irwin Chase, Bill Fleming and Glenville Tremaine, visited the United Kingdom to see their Motor Torpedo Boat designs. While visiting the British Power Boat Company they purchased a 70-foot design (PV70) (later renamed PT-9 during the competition), designed by Hubert Scott-Paine. Other entries in the competition were 2 boats (PT-7 and PT-8) built by Andrew Jackson Higgins of Higgins Industries of New Orleans, and designers at the Huckins Yacht Company also came up with competing 70 foot boat class designs. The US Navy at the Philadelphia Navy Yard, came up with other designs (PT-1 to PT-6). The results of the competition found that none of the boats, as built, were up to the necessary performance specifications identified by the US Navy.

Representatives of Elco had substantial small boat building experience, having built during WW I 550 eighty-foot sub chasers for the British Admiralty. Additionally in 1921, they introduced the famous 26-foot "Cruisette", (a gasoline cabin cruiser). This success in small boat building was followed in the 1930s with 30 ft to 57 ft "Veedettes" and "Flattops", gasoline powered boats that set the highest standard in a golden era of boating. This small boat experience helped Elco obtain a contract for 10 boats based on the 70 foot Scott-Paine Model PT Boat. These 70 foot boats were tested and determined to be too light for open sea work but Elco got a contract for 24 larger boats based on a lengthened 77 foot design.

The design competition and seaworthiness trials for the PT boat was nicknamed "The Plywood Derby" and took place prior to the United States entering the war, in early 1941. The Navy Department held these competition trials around New York Harbor. This was a shakedown to see which company would be contracted to build the Navy PT boats. At the completion of the trials the Navy was impressed with all three designs, with the Elco 77 footer coming out on top, followed by the Higgins 76 footer and Huckins 72 foot boat.

Although Elco came in first, the Navy saw the merits of the other two boats and decided to offer all three companies contracts. Elco received the lion's share of the contract (385 boats by the end of the war), Higgins was second (199 boats by the end of the war) and Huckins with the smallest contract (18 boats by the end of the war, none of which would see combat, being assigned to home defense squadrons in the Panama Canal Zone, Miami, Florida and in Hawaii at Pearl Harbor).

Huckins was a tiny yacht-building company in Jacksonville, Florida and was unable to build the number of boats needed by the Navy. Although they built a few 78-foot (24 m) boats of the PT-95 class, the 80-foot (24.4 m) Elco boats, and the 78-foot (24 m) Higgins boats became the standard American motor torpedo boats of World War II. Even though more 80-foot Elco boats were built than any other type of motor torpedo boat (326 of their 80-foot boats were built) Elco also produced 49 of their 77-foot boats and ten 70-foot boats.

Elco PT Boats

The Elco Naval Division boats were the largest in size of the three types of PT boats built for US Navy used during World War II. The 80 foot (24.4 m) long wooden-hulled were classified as boats in comparison with much larger steel-hulled destroyers, but were comparable in size to many wooden sailing ships in history. They had a 20 ft 8 in (6.3 m) beam. Though often said to be made of plywood, they were actually made of two-inch thick planks of mahogany.

They were powered by three 12-cylinder gasoline fueled engines. These were Packard built, a modified design of the 3A-2500 V-12 liquid-cooled aircraft engine. The 3A was an improved version of the 2A engine used on the Huff-Daland Keystone LB-1 Liberty bomber of World War One vintage. Packard modified them for marine use in PTs, hence the "M" designation instead of "A". (ie 3A-2500 then 4M-2500). Their aircraft roots gave them many features of aircraft engines such as supercharger, intercooler, dual magnetos, two spark plugs per cylinder, and so on. Packard built the Rolls Royce Merlin aero engine under license alongside the 4M-2500, but with the exception of the PT-9 prototype boat brought from England for Elco to examine and copy, the Merlin was never used in PTs.

The 4M-2500s initially generated 1200 hp (895 kW) each, together roughly the same power as a Boeing B-17 bomber. They were subsequently upgraded in stages to 1500 hp (1,150 kW) each for a designed speed of 41 knots (76 km/h). Increases in the weight of the boats during the war meant that the top speed did not go up as the engine power increased. Fuel consumption of these engines was phenomenal - a PT carried 3000 gallons (11,360 liters) of 100 octane avgas.

A normal patrol for these boats would last a maximum of 12 hours. The consumption rate for each engine at a cruising speed of 23 knots was about 66 gallons (250 l) per hour (200 gallons (760 l) per hour for all 3 engines). However, when going at top speed the gasoline consumption increased to 166 gallons (628 l) per hour per engine (or 500 gallons [1,890 l] per hour for all 3 engines). At the top speed of 41+ knots, the 3,000 gallons (11,360 l) of gas would be used in only about 6 hours.

With accommodations for 3 officers and 14 men, the crew varied from 12 to 14, though the PT-59 took on forty to fifty marines from a foundering landing craft. Full-load displacement late in the war was 56 tons.

Early Elco boats had one 20 mm Oerlikon cannon mounted at the stern, and two twin M2 .50 inch (12.7 mm) or .30 inch (7.6 mm) Lewis machine guns mounted in open rotating turrets designed by the same company that would make the Tucker automobile. The primary anti-ship armament was two or four 21 inch (533 mm) torpedo tubes launching Mark 8 torpedoes which weighed about one ton each. Some carried two to four US Navy Mark 6 depth charges in roll off stern racks, or mine racks.

Later boats mounted one 40 mm Bofors gun aft and four 22.5 inch diameter Mark 13 torpedo launching racks, two along each side. Some PTs later received two eight-cell five inch (127 mm) spin stabilized flat trajectory rocket launchers, giving them 16 rockets and as much firepower for a short time as a destroyer mounting five inch guns. By war's end the PT boat had more firepower-per-ton than any other vessel in the U.S. Navy.

One other addition US Navy PTs had was Raytheon SO type radar, with about a 25 nm range. Since PTs operated mainly at night, having radar gave them an advantage over the enemy in being able to locate and engage them even in zero visibility. Although radar is not specifically a weapon, its use by the PT boats made the other weapons much more effective.

In addition, many boats received ad hoc outfits at advanced bases, mounting such weapons as 37 mm aircraft cannon and even captured Japanese 23 mm guns. One famous example was Kennedy's PT-109 which was equipped with a 37 mm single shot anti-tank gun her crew had commandeered and bolted to the fore deck. Another similar type of weapon that gained widespread use as the war progressed was the 37 mm Oldsmobile M4 and M9 aircraft automatic cannon.

Originally cannibalized from crashed P-39 Airacobra fighter planes on Guadalcanal, and then later manufactured and installed at the boat's Elco and Higgins factories, the M4/M9 cannon had a relatively high rate of fire (125 rounds per minute) and large magazine (30 rounds), making it highly desirable due to the PT boat's ever increasing need for a larger "punch" to deal effectively with the Japanese daihatsu barges, which were immune to torpedoes due to their shallow draft. By the war's end, most PTs had these weapons.

Higgins PT Boats

Higgins produced 199 78-foot boats. The Higgins boats, built by Higgins Industries in New Orleans, Louisiana, were 78-foot (24 m) boats of the PT-71 class. The Higgins boats had the same beam, full load displacement, engine, generators, shaft power, trial speed, armament, and crew accommodations as the 80-foot (24 m) Elco boats. Numerous Higgins boats were sent to the USSR and Great Britain at the beginning of the war, so many of the lower squadrons in the USN were made up exclusively of Elcos.

The first Higgins boats for the US Navy were used in the Battle for the Aleutian Islands (Attu and Kiska) as part of Squadron 13, and others in the Mediterranean against the Germans. They were also used in great numbers during the D-Day landings. Gen. Eisenhower once said that that the Higgins boats won the war for the U.S.

A somewhat odd footnote is that even though only half as many Higgins boats were produced, far more survive (six hulls, 2 of which have been restored to their WW2 configuration), than do the more numerously built Elco boats of which only two hulls (one restored) are known to exist at this time.

Additional to the PT Boats Higgins were the main supplier of the Landing Craft used through out the Pacific and During the Normandy D Landings and was by far their most produced craft.

Service

The deck houses of PT boats were protected against small arms fire and splinter. Direct hits from Japanese guns could and did result in catastrophic explosions with near-total crew loss. PTs would attack under the cover of night. They feared attack by Japanese seaplanes, which were hard to detect even with radar, but which could spot the phosphorescent wake left by PT propellers from the air.

Bombing attacks killed and wounded crews even with near misses. Initially, only a few boats were issued primitive radar sets. In some early battles, they were the first to leave after expending their weapons, leaving the remaining boats without radar. The boats would have to sneak close to torpedo range, but once their position was given away by the torpedo launch, they would have to lay down a cloud of smoke from stern-mounted smoke generators to escape from searchlights, or seaplane-dropped flares which illuminated their locations for large caliber gunfire, which PTs lacked.

Depth charges were sometimes used as a last ditch confusion weapon to scare off pursuing destroyers. Gunboat versions mounted extra armor, though tests showed this was not very effective. A small life raft was normally mounted on the forward deck, though it was occasionally displaced by guns.

PT boats lacked the refrigerators with meat, milk, butter and eggs of larger ships. PT crewmen were cross-trained to do many tasks, and they depended on the ingenuity of their cook, who might also be quartermaster and signalman, and what he could do with Spam, Vienna sausage, and beans. Crews would trade with other ships for supplies, or sometimes even fish by aiming rifles or tossing grenades into schools of fish.

Originally conceived as anti-ship weapons, PT boats were publicly credited with sinking several Japanese warships during the period between December 1941 and the fall of the Philippines in March 1942. Attacking at night, PT crews may have sometimes failed to note a possible torpedo failure. Although the American Mark 8 torpedo was troublesome and did have problems with porpoising and circular runs, it could and did have success against several of their targets.

The exploder mechanism Mark 4, installed inside the Mark 8 torpedo was not subject to the same problems as the US submariners were having with their Mark 6 exploders inside of thier Mark 14 torpedoes. After the war, American military interviews with captured veterans of the Imperial Japanese Navy as well as Japanese war record reviews from the time (incomplete records existed, at best) was unable to verify that all the PT boat sinking claims were valid. This, however was not necessarily a cause to invalidate the claims, due to the incomplete nature of the Japanese records, (and maybe a sense of pride with the Japanese Navy refusing to admit what really happened or covering it up due to political circumstances etc.)

There are several recorded instances of PT boats trading fire with friendly aircraft, a situation also familiar to U.S. submariners. Several PT boats were lost due to "freindly fire" from both allied aircraft and destroyers. Overall, the effectiveness of PT boats in the Solomon Islands campaign, where there were numerous engagements between PTs and capital ships, was substantially undermined by defective torpedoes.

The Japanese were initially cautious when operating their capital ships in areas known to have PT boats, since they knew how dangerous their own Type 93s were, and assumed the Americans had equally lethal weapons. In several engagements, the mere presence of PTs was sufficient to disrupt heavily escorted Japanese resupply activities at Guadalcanal, but this tactical advantage did not last long. Nevertheless, the PT Boats mission in the Solomon Islands was deemed a success.

PT boats fought in the long Solomon Islands campaign, which was the first allied ground offensive of island hopping towards Japan. They operated at night and at times of low visibility against Japanese shipborne resupply efforts dubbed by Admiral William Halsey as "The Tokyo Express" in "the Slot", a narrow seaward channel linking the Japanese stronghold at Bougainville to Guadalcanal.

Throughout World War II, PTs operated in the southern, western, and northern Pacific, as well as in the Mediterranean Sea and the English Channel. Some served during the Battle of Normandy. During the D-Day invasion, PTs patrolled the "Mason Line", forming a barrier against the German S-boats attacking the Allied landing forces. They also performed lifesaving and anti-shipping mine destruction missions during the invasion.


Perhaps the most effective use of PTs was as "Barge Busters". Since both the Japanese in the New Guinea area and the Germans in the Mediterranean had lost numerous resupply vessels to Allied airpower during daylight hours, each attempted to resupply their troop concentrations by using shallow draft barges at night in very shallow waters. The shallow depth meant Allied destroyers were unable to follow them due to the risk of running aground and the barges could be protected by an umbrella of shore batteries.

PTs had sufficiently shallow draft to follow them inshore and sink them. Using torpedoes was ineffective against these sometimes heavily armed barges, since the minimum depth setting of the torpedo was about ten feet (3m) and the barges only drew five (1.5m). To accomplish the task, PTs (and RN and RCN MTBs in the Med) installed more and heavier guns which were able to sink the barges. One captured Japanese soldier's diary described their fear of PT boats by describing them as "the monster that roars, flaps it wings, and shoots torpedoes in all directions".

Though their primary mission continued to be seen as attack of surface ships and craft, PT boats were also used effectively to lay mines and smoke screens, to rescue downed aviators, and to carry out intelligence or raider operations.

In 1943 in the Solomon Islands, three 77-foot (23 m) PT boats, PT-59, PT-60, and PT-61, were even converted into gunboats by stripping the boat of all original armament except for the two twin .50 inch (12.7 mm) gun mounts, and then adding two 40 mms and four twin .50 inch (12.7 mm) mounts. Lt. John F. Kennedy was the first commanding officer of PT-59 after the conversion, and participated in evacuating many Marines from Choiseul.


The most famous incident in this campaign was when Lt. Kennedy's PT-109 was sent into Blackett Strait to intercept the Tokyo Express. In what National Geographic called a "poorly planned and badly coordinated" attack, 15 boats with 60 torpedoes attacked, but not a single hit was scored. Patrolling after the action, PT-109 was run down on a dark moonless night by the Japanese destroyer Amagiri, returning from the supply mission; she never even noticed PT-109.

The boat had her engines at idle to hide her wake from seaplanes, and so could not complete a torpedo shot. The survivors were remarkably found by two Solomon Islanders, dispatched in a traditional dugout canoe by an Australian coastwatcher. Only a few days later, a force composed mostly of destroyers would be successful in putting an end to the Japanese supply convoys.

Though his boat was sunk, Kennedy would be awarded a medal, and the incident would become a folk legend in the form of magazine articles, models, toys, hardback and comic books, a hit record, a major motion picture; it also inspired several television shows, starting with McHale's Navy. The wreck was found in 2002 by Robert Ballard who had also found the wreck of the Titanic.

The Sailor
10-01-2008, 09:38
Bloody hell Digger, I'm reading War and Peace at the moment. I can't start this tome until I finish.
Great subject though. I love it all.

The Sailor
10-01-2008, 09:39
A quirk happened and the post doubled up. I have deleted it sorry.

herakles
10-01-2008, 09:47
Great post Digger. Such detail.

Was it one of these that Kennedy was injured on? As in JFK?

The Sailor
10-01-2008, 09:49
No Herk, that was Marilyne Monroe later.

herakles
10-01-2008, 09:54
Hahahaha!

that was quick!!

I wasn't talking about self inflicted wounds!

TheDigger
10-01-2008, 10:29
Australians are not known to do anything by half measures so yes the post reads like war and peace.

TheDigger
10-01-2008, 11:29
Hello Herk,

Yes PT 109 was the ship, JFK was Captain, a film called "PT 109" detailed the events when PT109 was run over by a Japanese Destroyer the movie starred Cliff Robertson

Also a film starring John Wayne "They were Expendable" details some of the exploits of these wonderful craft in this movie Gen Douglas MacArthur was rescued

Lieutenant John D. Bulkeley, rescued General Douglas MacArthur from certain capture by the Japanese in a daring escape from Corregidor Island, Philippines, and was awarded the Medal of Honor for his exploits

herakles
10-01-2008, 11:40
Thanks Digger. I had a feeling it was. Ignore Sailor's rude comments. He's an Orstraylian you know!

The other thing is that I can't help feeling it was a shame that MacArthur was rescued.

john peake
27-05-2010, 07:14
G'day The Digger,
very good summary indeed of the PT designs and history.
a couple of questions for you or any other re armaments on the PTs.
were the rockets seen on the Elcos ever actually used in combat? and if so what results. I have been curious as being a fixed attachment which was only swung outboard and remotely fired, they must have been very hard to aim in a seaway... unless at short range in flat water with a large warship as the target . I observe from news reels, the PTs or at least the Elcos bounced around a fair bit in a chop and would hardly be described as a stable gun platform. like wise the thunderbolt looks a lethal and economically crewed weapon but I have never read of its' results in action.
Without being too critical the 37mm cannon the later Elco installed on the fore deck appear very low slung and difficult to fire down onto low wooded craft such as Jap barges, or as the bow lifted with attack speed.. can anyone comment?
cheers
John Peake
Sydney

alanbenn
27-05-2010, 13:05
John, sadly all the previous posters on this thread are no longer participants in the forum so it is doubtful you will get replies from them.

However, as your post has brought this thread forward once again hopefully some of our current members may be able to give you some answers.

Regards
Alan

Don Boyer
28-05-2010, 02:45
Most of those 37 mm. guns were taken off aircraft such as the awful P-39 Airacobra which was useful in a ground attack role and mighty poor otherwise. If I remember correctly, the mounting for the gun on a PT was capable of some up and down motion, so it was probably locked "up" for combat so someone could stand behind it, and lowered when not in use. Not sure of that for a fact, but I seem to remember that being mentioned on a modeling forum. Later boats simply had a stripped down Bofors 40 mm, a much better piece of work, but also much heavier as well as at least one 20 mm Oerlikon. These came about when the lighter torpedo dropping gear replaced the heavy trainable "tube" of the earlier boats.

The most complete book on PTs in action is "At Close Quarters: PT Boats in the United States Navy," by Captain Robert J. Bulkley Jr., USNR (Ret.) (Not to be confused with the Bulkeley of Corregidor fame.) Published by the US Navy's Naval History Division, Washington DC, in 1962, with a forward by the late President John F. Kennedy and an Introduction by RADM Ernest M, Eller, former Director of Naval History. Printed by the US Government Printing Office, the book is getting hard to find, and has never been re-printed. The book has an outstanding collection of photos.

Another good source is Frank D. Johnson's "PT Boats of World War II In Action," another of the great "In Action" productions of Blanford Books, Ltd. Poole, Dorset, published in 1980. The book is another source of excellent detailed photos of PTs in action.

Most PTs were equipped with three Packard engines, licensed versions of the famed Rolls Royce Merlin engines used in the P-51 Mustang.

After WWII the US Air Force acquired a few, removed one engine and used them as crash rescue boats. One was here in Hawaii when I was a lad. Not sure what happened to it.

Regards,

John O'Callaghan
28-05-2010, 10:56
Hi John P. The use of the armament on PT Boats and their RN equivelants the MTBs was usually to approach the enemy at night and unobserved at low speed.When in an attack position launch torpedoes or engage with gunfire.This would normally be done whilst stopped or at low speed.After the torpedo has struck or on being engaged by the enemy the PT/MTB/MGBs uses high speed to disengage or move to a more advantagous position to continue the engagement.Aiming light weapons on fast moving and bouncing boats does not allow for accuracy.It was largely war by stealth.The sight of boats travelling at 40 knots launching torpedoes and firing guns in all directions may look good in Hollywood but was not really effective during the WW2 period.Modern radar and fire control systems would probably make things more effective but these type of boats would still be very vulnerable though they still have their uses.
Cheers John O'C.

john peake
01-06-2010, 07:36
Most of those 37 mm. guns were taken off aircraft such as the awful P-39 Airacobra which was useful in a ground attack role and mighty poor otherwise. If I remember correctly, the mounting for the gun on a PT was capable of some up and down motion, so it was probably locked "up" for combat so someone could stand behind it, and lowered when not in use. Not sure of that for a fact, but I seem to remember that being mentioned on a modeling forum. Later boats simply had a stripped down Bofors 40 mm, a much better piece of work, but also much heavier as well as at least one 20 mm Oerlikon. These came about when the lighter torpedo dropping gear replaced the heavy trainable "tube" of the earlier boats.

The most complete book on PTs in action is "At Close Quarters: PT Boats in the United States Navy," by Captain Robert J. Bulkley Jr., USNR (Ret.) (Not to be confused with the Bulkeley of Corregidor fame.) Published by the US Navy's Naval History Division, Washington DC, in 1962, with a forward by the late President John F. Kennedy and an Introduction by RADM Ernest M, Eller, former Director of Naval History. Printed by the US Government Printing Office, the book is getting hard to find, and has never been re-printed. The book has an outstanding collection of photos.

Another good source is Frank D. Johnson's "PT Boats of World War II In Action," another of the great "In Action" productions of Blanford Books, Ltd. Poole, Dorset, published in 1980. The book is another source of excellent detailed photos of PTs in action.

Most PTs were equipped with three Packard engines, licensed versions of the famed Rolls Royce Merlin engines used in the P-51 Mustang.

After WWII the US Air Force acquired a few, removed one engine and used them as crash rescue boats. One was here in Hawaii when I was a lad. Not sure what happened to it.

Regards,
thanks for the advice on books Don, I have a huge collection but not those ones. Maybe the answer on the rockets and the Thunderbolt lies therein.
I would be very interested in evidence that the 37 mm mount could be raised.On this subject i have often wondered whether the forward gun on the S-Boote could be raised from it's well as most photos indicate that it was really an anti aircraft gun and could not be depressed sufficiently for anti coastal craft.
I know like our MLs( Fairmile B) many original guns were replaced with more suitable weapons, as requirements and availability changed. Our MLs in PNG, in addition to the 40 mm Bofors, 2 x 20mm Oerlikons, added mounted Browning 0.5 MGs either side of the bridge and often a twin Browning right aft plus 0.30 ex aircraft MGs forward and even captured Jap 'woodpeckers' anywhere they could fit them...giving them quite formidable fire power for their size.(and also twin .303s on the bridge wings)

On the matter of engines, you comment on the Packard being a development of the Merlin. However, The Digger's post has made specific comments on the contrary in his detailed history...as I have read similar differences in various publication it might be a good subject for further exploration, or confirmation.
cheers
John Peake

john peake
01-06-2010, 08:23
Hi John P. The use of the armament on PT Boats and their RN equivelants the MTBs was usually to approach the enemy at night and unobserved at low speed.When in an attack position launch torpedoes or engage with gunfire.This would normally be done whilst stopped or at low speed.After the torpedo has struck or on being engaged by the enemy the PT/MTB/MGBs uses high speed to disengage or move to a more advantagous position to continue the engagement.Aiming light weapons on fast moving and bouncing boats does not allow for accuracy.It was largely war by stealth.The sight of boats travelling at 40 knots launching torpedoes and firing guns in all directions may look good in Hollywood but was not really effective during the WW2 period.Modern radar and fire control systems would probably make things more effective but these type of boats would still be very vulnerable though they still have their uses.
Cheers John O'C.

G'day John,
i agree that most gunboat actions commenced as you described but once the battle joined speeds increased and violent manoeuvres took place, so that even on a calm night seas soon became confused and a stable gun platform plus accurate shooting(of course) made the difference ..particularly as the combatants were at close range.But in conducting raids against the coastal convoys the Dogboat MGBs usually used their speed to move from one target to another and firing at moderate to high speed in and endeavour to take out the whole convoy..which frequently they did.
The other action was in the chase situation where S-bootes used to disengage at high speed(being under instructions to preserve their craft for their primary function of offensive torpedo boats) but firing their 37mm stern mounted flack gun. The MGBs would be chasing hard firing every thing they could train.The soft chine S-Bootes tended to roll in a seaway or long swell (even in calmish water} and ride rather high in the forward section; so the Ds and BPBs had an advantage in size of weapon and stability..but certainly not speed, at least in the case of the Ds.
And of course the seas were not always slight!
I'm interested in how the PTs managed in these situations but from what i have read the usually fired their torpedoes from long range and then with drew which indicated that their function and design was also as an anti ship MTB...and not close action MGB role. Thus my interest in the rockets and Thunderbird. which seems to be a clever idea.I am aware that in the Pacific their role changed somewhat in that the were used as anti personnel gunboats close in shore where the Japs camped...but there they used their AA guns which seemed more than adequate.
Glad to have further comments.
cheers
John

Abbeywood.
07-10-2010, 14:43
The PT Boats were fitted to carry four torpedoes, I believe.
Were they carried in launching-tubes, or were they of the 'roll-off' type of launching. ?
Also I seem to remember seeing a coloured film of a considerable number of PT's being destroyed by fire on, i think, Samar Island, in the Philippines, at the end of WW2, as the USN could'nt be bothered to ship them all home to be discarded.
If my memory serves, they were piled up, three-high and about six to eight wide, Dont suppose they needed much encouragement to burn as the timbers were probably well soaked with their own natural turpentine, as well as the liberal applications of flammables during construction.
Again, an interesting thread, 10 out of 10, Keep up the good work.
Abbeywood

John Odom
07-10-2010, 20:58
Early PTs were fitted with torpedo tubes. they later went to Roll-off launching.

I was offered a PT for $1, at Cavite, 1n 1948. I was 10 yrs old! I had the $1, but not enough money for fuel to bring her across the bay or to pay for the cheapest moorings! Some were sold and converted to yachts. The Ayalla family bought one and converted it to a beautiful diesel yacht. The Ayalla's are Very Rich, and own the biggest shopping malls in today's Philippines.

Many PTs were burned.

John O'Callaghan
07-10-2010, 23:23
Hi John P! Sorry I've just caught up with this thread again. Yes M/T/GBs&PT Boats often engaged in high speed actions and some of their results were spectacular. But their key purpose was to destroy enemy shipping. This was more effectively done if the enemy didn't know you were there until it was too late to take avoiding/retaliatory action.Early in the war the war MTBs were only armed with a couple of machine guns and depended on torpedoes for their main offensive actions and MGBs provided protection for them.Later more guns were added and roles became flexible.This often led to a significant loss in speed for the boats which was a problem in their employment. More weight less speed,more powerful motors, more fuel,more weight etc. Also the targets for Allied vessels often became smaller as the Germans and Japanese turned to coastal shipping and barges. Regarding the use of rockets I believe they were primarily used for 'area' targets ashore. To engage a ship it would probably need to be a big one and close by as the rocket launcher would be limited in its trainability and the backblast would not be very pleasant either.
Cheers John O'C.

Don Boyer
07-10-2010, 23:50
Early PTs were fitted with torpedo tubes. they later went to Roll-off launching.

I was offered a PT for $1, at Cavite, 1n 1948. I was 10 yrs old! I had the $1, but not enough money for fuel to bring her across the bay or to pay for the cheapest moorings! Some were sold and converted to yachts. The Ayalla family bought one and converted it to a beautiful diesel yacht. The Ayalla's are Very Rich, and own the biggest shopping malls in today's Philippines.

Many PTs were burned.

Iv'e always thought it was a sad thing indeed that so many PTs were gathered at Samar at the end of the war and burned. Wooden hulls were not amenable to long-term preservation, and the PT role was over as far as the US Navy was concerned. But it is those wonderful marine engines that I find a total waste. Those were great high-power engines and could have served military and civilian uses for years. What a waste, like all warfare.

John O'Callaghan
08-10-2010, 07:48
Hi Don! The waste of war.As I'm sure you are aware for many years much of the Pacific,The Philipines and the rest of Asia ran on the cast offs and equipment abandoned or dumped during WW2. It was considered not cost effective and economically sound to take it back to the US. Much of the Philipines public transport system ran on old jeeps which were tarted up to create a whole new art form. Trucks, boats, generators, Quanset huts, pierced steel matting,etc everything was gold to the natives.
Cheers John O'C.

Vegaskip
08-10-2010, 14:26
While in the MN in 1957 we 'coasted' around the Philipines picking up a cargo of Copra, mostly brought out to the ship (Benmacdhui) in LCP's, wonder if there are any left.
Jim