Naval Sayings & Nicknames

[Kiwicruiser]

Many nautical phrases have made their way into common vernacular. I wonder if anyone has some favourites, along with their nautical origins if possible. My father was always keen on the "worse things happen at sea" (and would always grasp the dining table at its edges, as if it was going to tip at any time). Freezing the balls off the brass monkey is another, though its origin is probably not well known. Correct me if I am wrong but the brass monkey was the receptacle for cannon balls, which in cold weather contracted, ejecting the balls. However, were brass monkeys used on early sailing ships?
Ian

[kc]

Good Thread!

I can't really add much but I will be watching with interest to see what comes up here. (please keep it as clean as possible! - I may edit some posts if needed).

Interestingly though, I believe the brass monkey - cannon balls origin is a myth. I remembered seeing it on a TV show here (QI for those who might recognise it) and I found this link:

http://www.qi.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=9439#9439

Makes interesting reading about that particular phrase.

[herakles]

I'm sure a wealth of sayings will follow, some of which will not fit comfortably into drawing room conversation!

The saying of: brass balls and monkeys. I always believed this was to do with the 2 balls on either side of the compass.

[Stan.J]

On about Monkeys now the Cat. When a flogging with a cat-a-nine-tails was ordered to take place the Ships company had to attend. The Bosuns mate often had to make room if there were many in attendance. So the saying "Not enough room to swing a cat"

[John Brown]

Just a quick one:

'Three square meals a day' comes from the three meals eaten by sailors off of square wooden plates in the 'olden days'


Stan just reminded me of 'The cat's out of the bag'. Comes from the cat o nine tails being removed from its bag prior to a flogging.


John

[The Sailor]

Down here in Oz, they say when it's cold that 'the monkeys are calling for welders'.
I never understood what they meant and I'd like to ask Kc if he can explain as he seems to know something about it?

[John Brown]

'Between the devil and the deep blue sea'

The 'devil' was the longest seam in the ship running from stem to stern. To seal it whilst at sea a sailor was hung over the side in a position that was literally between the 'devil' and the sea.


'Turn a blind eye'

At the battle of Copenhagen, Nelson put a telescope to his blind eye deliberately not to see an order signalled by the Admiral of the Fleet.

[astraltrader]

Of course there is always the classic "ship-shape and Bristol fashioned"

[astraltrader]

Just thought of the phrase for being drunk in navy parlance...
Three sheets to the wind.
I was curious as to where this phrase originated from. Anyway after a bit of digging I found this...
Sailor slang for “drunk,” it goes back to the term “in the wind” (or more inclusively, “all in the wind”). This term, dating to the 1600s, refers to having one or more sails set parallel to the wind (or “in the wind”). As a result, wind rushes by both sides of the sails, causing them to shake and shiver useless and dangerously. (A sailing ship is steered by setting the sails somewhat perpendicular to the wind.)

In an 1818 citation, we find “in the wind” also referring to drunkenness—presumably because a drunk also shakes and shivers uselessly and dangerously.

The elaboration “three sheets in the wind” dates to 1821. In nautical parlance, a sheet is a rope attached to the lower corner of a sail, used to alter and maintain the sail’s position relative to the wind. The phrase seems to be referring to pulling the sheets (or letting them go slack) so the sails are in the wind, resulting in the aforementioned problems.

There’s much confusion as to why three sheets are specified, as no single sail has more than two sheets and few (if any) ships had only three sails. Since we know the phrase is just an elaboration of “in the wind,” and there apparently was no specific three-sheet grouping on old ships, I think it’s safe to assume “three sheets” just sounded colorful and refers to nothing in particular.

Nonetheless, the “three” has led many sources to wild guessing and brought undue attention to the “sheet” part of the phrase—most dictionaries, in fact, list the phrase under “sheet,” though from what we know of its etymology it would be more appropriately listed under “wind.” Then again, most sources also don’t mention the original “in the wind” at all, it having become archaic.

It is possible to have “a sheet in the wind” or a “a sheet or two in the wind,” meaning “tipsy”—such puns on “three sheets to the wind” date to 1832 and come mostly from literary, rather than nautical, sources.

Inevitably, you can now go three sheets to the wind on a drink called Three Sheets to the Wind: a shot glass containing one-third Jagermeister, one-third Rumpleminze and one-third tequila.
Anyhow - "Down the hatch" and "Anchor`s away"

[astraltrader]

Seeing that KC has taken a personal interest in naval puns and expressions I can do no better than to post this definitive list!

Expressions with explanations
the cat is out of the bag
"Vowles drew the cat from its red baize bag, phlegmatically took up his stance, and as the ship reached the height of her roll he laid on the first stroke. 'Oh my God,' cried Weightman, enormously loud."
[Patrick O'Brian, The Truelove, p. 198]
As I understand it, the cat 'o nine tails was normally kept in a cloth bag, and was only pulled out immediately prior to flogging, hence the phrase signifying that one has crossed some bright line of misconduct, etc. I also have a vague recollection of reading somewhere that the bag was sometimes brandished in front of a potential miscreant to warn him, somewhat like brandishing the mace before an unruly member of a legislature.
[JRMcE@aol.com]

Brewer's has a different explanation. Scrubs would sell a suckling pig to someone, presenting them with a squirming sack, or "poke". The unfortunate would then have bought a pig in a poke. When the poke was opened, he would find not a nice edible pig, but a cat; thus, letting the cat out of the bag reveals the deception. This seems to jibe with usage a little better.
[Walt Mazur (w_mazur@primenet.com)]


no room to swing a cat
During punishment all hands were called on deck to bear witness. In the case of a ship with a full complement on board this could make for a very crowded deck. In fact the deck could be so crowded that a cat o' nine tails could not be used without hitting the observers so that there was no room to swing a cat.
[Bill Strauss (wstrauss@frbchi.org)]

three sheets to the wind
On a small boat there are three sheets that control the sails. The Main Sheet controls the mainsail, and two sheets that control the headsail the Windward Sheet and the Leeward Sheet. So a person that has three sheets to the wind means that the sheets are flying with the wind i.e. you do not have control of the boat. Much like someone who has three sheets to the wind does not have control over themselves.
[Ibid.]

splice the mainbrace
take a drink
[alfanso@roadrunner.com (Charles Keller)]

P.O.S.H.
Port Outward, Starboard Home - when traveling to India from Britain and back - keeps your cabin on the shady side of the ship. [This well-known explanation is refuted in the alt.usage.english FAQ.]
[Scott Bayes (bayes@fortnet.org); c.f. alt.usage.english FAQ ]

the devil to pay
"'Why, the devil, do you see,' said Jack, 'is the seam between the deck-planking and the timbers, and we call it the devil, because it is the devil for the caulkers to come at: in full we say the devil to pay and no pitch hot; and what we mean is, that there is something hell-fire difficult to be done - must be done - and nothing to do it with. It is a figure.'"
[Patrick O'Brian, The Mauritius Command, p. 280, per Michael Krugman (myriad@panix.com)]
Aboard wooden sailing ships. the devil was the neame given to the seam formed at the juncture where the covering board that capped the ships sides met the deck planking. The seam was particularly difficult to caulk because of its length, because there was so little space in which to perform the awkward task, and because there was so little standing room between the devil and the sea.
[From the latest International Marine catalog announcing the publication of When a Loose Cannon Flogs a Dead Horse There's the Devil to Pay: Seafaring Words in Everyday Speech by Olivia A. Isil]


between the devil and the deep blue sea
[c.f. the devil to pay, above] I vaguely recall that this has also been explained as an anglicism of the Homeric passage about Scylla (the rocks off Sicily) and the whirlpool Charybdis. I also think it impacts upon between a rock and a hard place.
[JRMcE@aol.com; Spencer K. Whetstone (spencer@dgandf.com) assist]


by and large
"Captain Harris was already explaining by and large. With a piece of fresh Gibraltar bread and arrows drawn with wine he showed the ship lying as close as possible to the breeze: '. . . and this is sailing by the wind, or as sailors say in their jargon, on a bowline; whereas large is when it blows not indeed quite from behind but say over the quarter, like this.'
"'Far enough abaft the beam that the studdingsails will set,' said Whiting."

"'So as you see,' continued Harris, 'it is quite impossible to sail both by and large at the same time. It is a contradiction in terms. . .'

"'We do say by and large,' said Jack. 'We say a ship sails well by and large when she will both lie close when the wind is scant and run fast when it is free.'"
[The Ionian Mission, pp. 84-5, per Judith Franke (jfrankemlstg@aol.com)]

the whole nine yards
If you look at a "typical square-rigger" (see the picture in the front pages of any of the O'Brian books you will see that there are three masts with three yards on each mast. So if you had all of the square sails a flying on board you would have the whole nine yards in operation. ie. everything.
[Bill Strauss (wstrauss@frbchi.org)]

Other suggestions have included: Volume in a concrete mixer, coal truck, or a wealthy person's grave; amount of cloth in a man's custom-made (i.e., "bespoke") suit, sports games, funeral shroud, kilt, in a bolt of cloth, square area in a ship's sails, and volume in a soldier's pack.
[Folklore FAQ and and English Usage FAQ per Denis McKeon (dmckeon@swcp.com)]

minding your Ps and Qs.
...amongst the several explanations I have seen (pints and quarts, etc. etc.) is the feeble suggestion that sailors used to be told to watch their "Pea" jackets and pig-tails [queues, laden with pre-mousse tar, so that their jackets would not become tarred.].
[Stephen Cole (76570.2534@compuserve.com); c.f. alt.usage.english FAQ]

slush fund
from the "slush" saved (and eventually sold) by the ship's cook.
[Ken Kapson (amscrap@mail.suba.com)]

son of a gun
"...both had been bred to the sea from their earliest years - Bonden, indeed, had been born between two of the Indefatigable's lower-deck guns..."
[Patrick O'Brian, Desolation Island, p. 7, per Alison Fitts (af@gorge.net)]
If paternity was uncertain the child was entered in the log as "son of a gun".
[ Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable, per Walt Mazur (w_mazur@primenet.com)]


to be pooped
"...even worse, she lost some of her way at the bottom, whereas she needed all her speed to outrun the following seas, for if they were to overtake her she would be pooped, smothered in a mass of breaking water. Then ten to one she would slew round and broach to, presenting her broadside to the wind, so that the next sea would overwhelm her."
[Patrick O'Brian, Desolation Island, p. 228, per Alison Fitts (af@gorge.net)]

to be taken aback
To be astounded, taken by surprise. From the sailing-ship term aback, when the sails press against the mast and progress is suddenly stayed.
[Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable, per Jill Dillon (J_Dillon@msn.com)]

to back and fill
A nautical phrase, denoting a mode of tacking when the tide is with the vessel and the wind is against it. Metaphorically, to be irresolute.
[Ibid.]

to go by the board
To go for good, to be completely destroyed or finished with, thrown overboard. When a ship's mast is carried away it is said "to go by the board", board here meaning the ship's side.
[Ibid.]

to make headway
To get on, to struggle effectively against something, as a ship makes headway against a tide or current...
[Ibid.]

in the offing
Said of a ship visible at sea off the land. Such a ship is often approaching port, hence the phrase is used figuratively to mean 'about to happen'...
[Ibid.]

to batten down the hatches
"'Tell me, Jack, just how would you explain the term battened down?'
"A piercing look showed Jack that although this was almost past believing he was not in fact being made game of, and he replied 'First I should say that we talk very loosely about hatches, often meaning hatchways and even ladderways - "he came up the fore hatch" - which of course ain't hatches at all. The real hatches are the things that cover the hatchways: gratings and close-hatches. Now as you know very well, when a great deal of water comes aboard either from the sea of the sky or both, we cover those real hatches with tarpaulins.'

"'I believe I have seen it done,' said Stephen.

"'Not above five thousand times,' said Jack inwardly, and aloud 'And if it also comes on to blow and rain uncommon hard, we take battens, stout laths of wood, that fit against the coaming, the raised rim of the hatchway, and so pin the tarpaulin down drum tight. Some people do it by nailing the batten to the deck, but it is a sad, sloppy, unseamanlike way of carrying on, and we have cleats.'"
[Patrick O'Brian, The Truelove, or, Clarissa Oakes, pp.124-5]


jury rig
"assembled in a makeshift manner", is attested since 1788. It comes from "jury mast", a nautical term attested since 1616 for a temporary mast made from any available spar when the mast has broken or been lost overboard. The OED dubiously recorded a suggestion that this was short for "injury mast", but recent dictionaries say that is probably from Old French ajurie="help or relief", from Latin adiutare="to aid" (the source of the English word "adjutant").
[alt.usage.english FAQ]

at loggerheads
"...They had been sparring, in a spirit of fun, with loggerheads, those massy iron balls with long handles to be carried red-hot from the fire and plunged into buckets of tar or pitch so that the substance might be melted with no risk of flame. 'They are sober now, sir; and penitent, the creatures.'"
[Patrick O'Brian, The Commodore, p.12; per James Gell (gellj@mary.iia.org)]

crew cut
Crew cut refers to the monthly (at least) haircuts that would be offered.
[USS Constitution docent, per Scott Rosenthal (scott79@ix.netcom.com)]
The hair, beard, and mustache must be worn neatly trimmed. The face must be kept clean shaved, except a mustache or beard and mustache may be worn at discretion. No eccentricities in the manner of wearing the hair, beard or mustache are allowed.
[The Bluejackets' Manual, The United States Naval Institute, 1943]


skyscraper
A triangular sail set above the skysail to maximize the advantage of a light favorable wind. A triangular moonsail.
[Dean King, et. al., A Sea of Words, p. 338]
On the clipper ships and perhaps in Jack's time, they had sails which would go above the royals. I cannot quite remember the order, but it went some thing like skyscrapers, moonrakers, angel's foot stools and finally star gazers which were only set in dead calms and as I read in one book, the crew were not even allowed to sneeze. ... the skyscrapers would come from this, being the highest 'used' sail on a ship. The others were mostly for show as they could not bear out a strong wind without being carried over the side.
[Anthony Vogl (abv@keene.edu)]


skylarking
Yet the Surprise, lying there in the road, had three midshipmen aboard, and what they lacked in intelligence they made up for in physical activity. R_____, having but one arm, could no longer go skylarking, hurling himself about the upper rigging regardless of gravity, but his messmates N_____ and W_____ would hoist him by an easy purchase to astonishing heights, and from these, having still one powerful hand and legs that could twist around any rope, he would plunge with infinite satisfaction. He was at the masthead, negligently holding the starboard main topgallant shrouds with the intention of sliding straight down the whole length of the topgallant backstay, well over a hundred feet, when his eye, wandering towards San Lorenzo, caught the odd spectacle of a very small boat trying to tow a much larger one...
[Patrick O'Brian, The Wine-Dark Sea, pp.190-1]

toe the line
"[Amos Dray] ...shaded his mouth with his hand and in a deep rumble whispered, 'Toe the line, my dears.'
"The two little pudding-faced twin girls in clean pinafores stepped forward to a particular mark on the carpet, and together, piping high and shrill, they cried, 'Good morning, sir.'"
[Patrick O'Brian, Desolation Island, p. 8, per Alison Fitts (af@gorge.net)]


freeze the balls of off a brass monkey
{This explanation has no basis in fact. Ed. } It is not what you think. On ships, cannon balls were sometimes stacked in what was called a monkey, usually made from brass. When it got really cold the monkey would contract forcing some of the cannon balls to fall off.
[Steve Rose (rose@rtl.ENET.dec.com)]

scuttlebutt
'What are you a-thinking of, sir?' cried his steward? 'Don't you see he is bleeding like a pig from under his bandage?' Killick whipped into the quarter-gallery for a towel and thrust it under Dutuord's head. 'Now I must take all them covers off and soak them this directly minute in fresh cold water and there ain't no cold fresh water, which the scuttle-butt is empty till Chips comes back and shifts the hand-pump.'
[Patrick O'Brian, The Wine-Dark Sea, p. 37]
Scuttle is a fairly old term for a small rectangular hole cut into the deck or side of a ship for light, ventilation, and sometimes communication between decks. A butt was simple a wooden cask for provisions. Traditionally, a butt of water was to last for two days. The problem was, how to keep the crew from drinking the whole cask in one day. Eventually, someone thought to scuttle a butt (put a hole in it halfway up), attach it to the upper deck, and have the water ration poured in each day up to the hole. Before long, the place to get a drink became known as the scuttled butt, and eventually, the scuttlebutt. The term came to be applied to rumors passed around while waiting to get a drink.
[Rich Benedict (dick@dragonsys.com)]

Smyth's Sailor's Word-Book (1867) gives: "SCUTTLE or SCUTTLED BUTT. A cask having a square piece sawn out of its bilge, and lashed in a convenient place to hold water for present use." However, I don't recall ever hearing the term during my wartime service in the Royal Navy ....and am fairly sure that the sense of 'office rumor picked up at the water-cooler' is American rather than British.
[John Harland (ylwm0161@cyberstore.ca)]

Scuttle. - To make holes in a ship's bottom to sink her. A round or square opening in the deck.
[The Bluejackets' Manual, The United States Naval Institute, 1943]


More from The Bluejackets' Manual:
dismantle
To unrig a vessel and discharge all stores.

field day
Day for cleaning up all parts of a ship.


forging ahead
Going ahead slowly.


overhaul
To take apart, thoroughly examine, and repar; to overtake.


pipe down
A boatswain's call denoting the completion of an all hands evolution, and that you can go below. This expression is also used to mean "Keep quiet."


water-logged
When a vessel is so full of water as to be heavy and unmanageable.

windfall
A rush of wind from the high land; a stroke of good luck.

up-take
The enclosed trunk connecting a boiler or a group of boilers to the smokestack.


the bitter end
"Meanwhile the bosun and his mates, together with the most experienced forecastle hands and tierers, roused out the best cable the Diane possessed, the most nearly new and unfrayed, a seventeen-inch cable that they turned end for end - no small undertaking in that confined space, since it weighed three and a half tons - and bent it to the best bower anchor by the wholly unworn end that had always been abaft the bitts: the bitter end. There was thought to be good luck attached to the bitter end, as well as greater strength."
[Patrick O'Brian, The Thirteen Gun Salute, p. 299, per David Peck (dpeck@world.std.com)]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Other everyday expressions with nautical origin
aloof
bail out
bear up (down, off)
catch my drift
chock-a-block (chock full)
clear the deck
close quarters
cross the line
cruiser
deadwood
dog's body
down the hatch
fend off
first rate
from stem to stern
give leeway
go overboard
great guns
groggy
halcyon days
haul up short
hit the deck
hulk
in the doldrums
junk (chunk)
learn the ropes
logging on (disputed nautical origin)
loose cannon
lower the boom
main stay (as in "he was the mainstay of our team")
make a clean sweep
on an even keel
on another tack
plain sailing
run afoul of
shake a leg (or) show a leg
show your true colors
snub
sound out
standoff
stranded
take someone down a peg
take the wind out of his sails
weather a storm

[Kiwicruiser]

Well done, Terry. This will keep the dinnertime conversation rocking for hours! I was, however, intrigued to see your mention of 'Anchor's away', when I believe it's more likely to be 'Anchor's aweigh'. It's similar to another erroneous phrase used by the media, in that a ship 'weighs' ... tons. Again, I believe the 'weight' is actually the 'displacement'.

[astraltrader]

I take your point on that Ian, although I feel that you are looking at the original spelling when the phrase first appeared in our everyday vernacular and the spelling I employed is now the form it has if you like mutated to!

[astraltrader]

Just thought of a couple more!

There is a popular phrase about finding oneself up a "certain "creek without a paddle!
Also I suppose "shiver me timbers" should qualify??

[kc]

Just to say great post of all those terms and origins astraltrader.

Haven't had a chance to read them all yet, but I know I'll now never forget where the term 'whole nine yards' comes from!

Oh, and thanks for not naming that creek! :)

[Kiwicruiser]

The creek sometimes gets mixed up with the earlier referred to phrase "four sheets to the wind". By the way, what is the origin of "shiver me timbers"? I can only guess, and I'd probably be wrong.

[AlZictorini]

Herakles posts on Ships Ratings inspired my interests in sailing ships and the Very Old Navy. It came to mind that we haven’t had a post on the origins of common phrases. There are hundreds of them which we use in our daily lives and don’t really know how they came about! Here’s a few to start you all going, please add to the list:

Three Sheets to the Wind – Very Drunk/legless

As can be expected over time and the transformation from sea to land, certain phrases change slightly as has this one. In its original form it would have been pronounced “Three Sheets in the Wind”. So, the origins, well a sheet is not a sail as most people expect but is in fact the rope which is attached to the bottom corner of a sail and used to keep them set in their place when sailing. As you can imagine, if these ropes are released the sail will flap around like a drunkard. Hence the phrase “Three Sheets in the Wind”. A similar phrase used by early sailors was “A Sheet in the Wind's Eye”.

Groggy – Drunk

In 1740, British Admiral Vernon (whose nickname was "Old Grogram" for the cloak of grogram which he wore) ordered that the sailors' daily ration of rum be diluted with four parts water, lemon juice and sugar (To help prevent Scurvy and Drunkenness). The men called the mixture "grog". A sailor who drank too much grog was considered "groggy".

Over a Barrel – Powerless/helpless

Punishment at sea could be quite harsh in Nelsons day. Floggings were common place and would be given at the Captains discretion in front of the whole crew by the Bosun’s Mate. The tool used was a “Cat O Nine Tails” (A whip consisting of nine eighteen inch long knotted cords, attached to a rope handle), the victim would be tied to a mast, grating or “Over a Barrel”.

No Room to Swing a Cat – Small or confined space

As mentioned above, the crew would gather round for the punishment to be given. The deck would at times become so crowded the Bosun’s Mate wouldn’t be able to swing his whip, hence, there would be no room to swing his cat.

Below is my favourite phrase and something I have myself (don’t tell the wife).

Slush Fund – Reserve of money

As you may well know, meat was stored in heavily salted barrels. On return home the cook would scrape and boil the barrel which produced a watery slush. This was sold ashore or to the purser, the money made became known as the “Slush Fund”.

AlZ

[The Sailor]

In all fairness to the Kiwi Al, he put that post up only a few days ago.

http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showthread.php?t=893

[AlZictorini]

Good call Sailor, it is Sunday and I was up late. I read the other link with joy - Brass Monkeys being a swiz, no way, a little further research points out that this may even be of American origins. Thread Merge..

AlZ

[The Sailor]

Nar, who cares. Leave it Al. I only pointed it out to be fair to the Kiwi. Good post.
"Don't want to rub salt into the wound."

[astraltrader]

Hi Kiwi - from what I have been able to make out the term "Shiver my timbers "(sometimes pronounced "shiver me timbers") is an exclamation in the form of a mock oath usually attributed to the speech of pirates in works of fiction. It is employed as a literary device by authors to express shock, surprise or annoyance. The phrase is based on real nautical slang and is a reference to the timbers, which are the wooden support frames of a sailing ship. In heavy seas, ships would be lifted up and pounded down so hard as to "shiver" the timbers, startling the sailors. Such an exclamation was meant to convey a feeling of fear and awe, similar to, "Well Blow Me Down!", or, "May God Strike Me Dead". Shiver is also reminiscent of the splintering of a ship's timbers in battle - splinter wounds were a common form of battle injury on wooden ships ('shiver' means splinter in some English dialects).

According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the expression "shiver my timbers" probably first appeared in a published work by Frederick Marryat called Jacob Faithful (1834).
There you go...

[herakles]

I found this interesting Terry.

Until I encountered O'Brian, the idea of splinter wounds was unknown to me. Clearly they must have been a major cause of injury. My experience of these wounds is that they can be very nasty.

This point is well made in the film: Master and Commander.

On that point, I would be interested to hear from the old salts here (as well as anyone else!!) what they thought of this film.

[Harley]

Hardly an "old salt" (just a grizzled C.P.O), but I'll weigh in. I found Master and Commander a most enjoyable film and it's a crying shame there haven't been anymore adaptations of O'Brien yet.

One thing which rankled though was the insinuation that Maturin was on the threshold of "discovering" evolution on the Galapagos Islands. Why????

Harley

[AlZictorini]

I loved the film Master & Commander especially since there hasn’t been a film like this since say the days of Errol Flynn. I particularly like the way the actor David Threlfall played the grumpy captains Killick, nicely done. I do hope there are more to come.

[herakles]

I agree re the film. Great film. I didn't expect anyone could portray Aubrey but I was wrong. Crowe did an excellent job. I regard Weir as the best director of all. I wasn't too happy with Maturin. But I feel he is such a character as to make an accurate portrayal all but impossible.

I regret they merged two books. As each book is worthy of a film on its own.

What blew me out of the water was viewing the extras on the DVD. That they actually made 2 perfect HMS Surprises, correct down to the halyards. And so well that one of them sailed perfectly. And trained the actors properly to be sailors of the day.

I regard O'Brian as one of the greatest authors of the 20th century and the best in this genre. Shame he was so far from perfect in real life.

[astraltrader]

Herk - or anybody else - have you read any of the Alexander Kent Books about richard bolitho??

[herakles]

Don't know him. Tell me me more please!

[Hookie]

The creek sometimes gets mixed up with the earlier referred to phrase "four sheets to the wind". By the way, what is the origin of "shiver me timbers"? I can only guess, and I'd probably be wrong.

Robert Louis Stevenson? Or maybe Robert Newton? :D

Regards
John

[herakles]

I was a bit suspicious of "shiver me timbers" as it sounded like a writers invention. I was wrong!

I threw it at Google and found many explanations. Even one in Wiki. (Can anyone help me? Every time I use Google, it defaults to the Thai version. Which means I get quite a lot of unreadable stuff. How can I tell my Google to use a different one? Without altering my country of residence in the confuser.)

Anyway, here's a good explanation: http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/16871

It is of course Robert Louis Stevenson but apparently it appears in 1834 and again in Frederick Marryat in 1881.

Wiki claims it's derived from an old sailor's curse: "timbers" and this is recorded from 1791. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiver_my_timbers

[astraltrader]

Herk - The Richard Bolitho Novels are a series of authentic, well characterised, exciting and moving tales of the career in the RN of a Richard Bolitho from his joining as a midshipman in 1772 to his attaining Admiral Rank in 1812 and beyond. There are about 25 books in all and are written by Alexander Kent - who also writes 20th century naval fiction under his real name - Douglas Reeman.
Anyway back to Kent and the Bolitho series - they are very much in the Hornblower and Patrick O`Brien mould. I have enjoyed all 3 authors. Possibly O`Brien has more literary skills than the other two - but Kent for me wins in terms of excitement and battle-action. I am sorry to hear that there is a dearth of English Language books in Thailand - it must be difficult. Out of idle curiosity how much does it cost in postage to send a book to Thailand from Aus or the UK - or is it unviable??
Finally you thinking that "shiver me timbers" was not a real phrase. Oh ye of little faith!

[herakles]

"Out of idle curiosity how much does it cost in postage to send a book to Thailand from Aus or the UK - or is it unviable??"

Terry, I've no idea! As I am here and the information is there. :)

And thanks very much for that book information. If I could obtain a couple of them, I would.

[berry]

G'day all'
navy nick-names have always interested me.We are all familiar with Taffy,Scouse,Jock,brummy,janner,geordies,paddy etc.chalky white,buster brown,nozmo-king,jimmy green,smudger smith also come to mind.I'm sure there are plenty of others;but can anyone tell me where 'pincher' Martin came from?
Best regards
Sid

[astraltrader]

Hi Sid - unfortunately there were many traditional nicknames attached to certain surnames that have some obscure origin from hundreds of years ago - some of more obscure origin than others. Amongst them were Dusty Miller, Knocker White, Pincher Martin, and Nobby Clark.

People have asked the same questions regarding their origins for almost as long - without any agreement over the answer!!!

[ivorthediver]

It would seem an appropriate time to run this thread as other members have suggested that we start a "melting pot" and summerise the myriad of phrases ,naval slang and "Titles" used to describe members of the ships company at all levels.

If ..as I suspect..like me... you have not enjoyed the pleasantries and the terms ....often used by the Ships crew to identify an individual ...who is the current topic of conversation in the mess [ and ridicule ] then this should prove an interesting stroll done memory lane for the "Salt Encrusted urchins" who like me find these threads very interesting , very informative and for the most part extremly amusing

So lets start the ball rolling with "Jimmy" .....Who or What is IT or HE/HER

[qprdave]

The Jimmy is the First Lt. also known as No.1 and many titles not fit for this forum.

He is accountable to the Captain for the running of the ship. Seaman Dept. in particular.

[ivorthediver]

The Jimmy is the First Lt. also known as No.1 and many titles not fit for this forum.

He is accountable to the Captain for the running of the ship. Seaman Dept. in particular.

Thanks Dave ...the only other "Jimmy" I know of is a crowbar...signs of a misspent youth perhaps....

[ivorthediver]

Can anyone explain to me what a Bunting Tosser is [ if its printable ] and his function please ?

Cue Dave.......

[qprdave]

Bunting, I think, is the term used for all the flags and pennants used in the navy, including the Semaphore signal flags. When I was in the RN, the Communications Dept. was split into 3. Buntings, Sparks and EW (Electronic Warfare) Sparks dealt with all the electrical comms. (Morse etc). EW was looking for enemy radar etc. The Bunting Tossers (Not derogatory) also were the ones who would use the semaphore lights.

That is how I saw it being a lowly dabtoe. I am sure the cleverer ones here will either shoot me down in flames of just expand on what I have said

[tonclass]

Wasn't 'tossing the bunting' the act of raising and lowering the signal flags - Hence the nickname ;)

[CanuckFan]

I understood the term Bunting tosser or Flag wagger, to have come from the use of Semaphore flags. No idea what their branch badge is these modern days, but it used to be crossed semaphore flags as opposed to the radio or W/T arm of the communicators known as Sparks, who had crossed lightning bolts as badge.
Bob

[ivorthediver]

I understood the term Bunting tosser or Flag wagger, to have come from the use of Semaphore flags. No idea what their branch badge is these modern days, but it used to be crossed semaphore flags as opposed to the radio or W/T arm of the communicators known as Sparks, who had crossed lightning bolts as badge.
Bob

Thank you Bob for adding another piece to the puzzle

[ivorthediver]

Bunting, I think, is the term used for all the flags and pennants used in the navy, including the Semaphore signal flags. When I was in the RN, the Communications Dept. was split into 3. Buntings, Sparks and EW (Electronic Warfare) Sparks dealt with all the electrical comms. (Morse etc). EW was looking for enemy radar etc. The Bunting Tossers (Not derogatory) also were the ones who would use the semaphore lights.

That is how I saw it being a lowly dabtoe. I am sure the cleverer ones here will either shoot me down in flames of just expand on what I have said

Ah Bless him

[Jan Steer]

Ivor, the Jimmy or Jimmy the one is also the Captain's deputy. If anything were to happen to the captain to put him out of action, the 1st Lieutenant would take over.
The Captain was referred to as "The Old Man" in both the RN and the Merchant service. However, our lords and masters (the Officers) often referred to him as "father". The Officers, in my time anyway, were usually referred to out of their earshot at least, as "The Pigs" or "The grunters". This was, of course, derogatory but good humoured and was probably thought up by some well-educated national serviceman. In Orwell's "Animal Farm" you may recall that the pigs were in charge!
I was a "Sparker", what the Americans would call a radioman. The signalman was indeed a "bunting tosser" for the reasons explained by others. The electronic warfare radio operators were called, "Gollies". This was because when the sub-branch started promotion was so quick that we joked that they could get their next rate by saving up the gollies on marmalade jars and sending them away. Their next rate would arrive in the post!
I believe that my beloved sparkers branch badge and the crossed flags of the signalman no longer exist. The jobs have gone the way of all flesh.
Are you still with me? Good man! We'll make an honourary matelot of you yet!

Keep smiling
Jan

[ivorthediver]

Ivor, the Jimmy or Jimmy the one is also the Captain's deputy. If anything were to happen to the captain to put him out of action, the 1st Lieutenant would take over.
The Captain was referred to as "The Old Man" in both the RN and the Merchant service. However, our lords and masters (the Officers) often referred to him as "father". The Officers, in my time anyway, were usually referred to out of their earshot at least, as "The Pigs" or "The grunters". This was, of course, derogatory but good humoured and was probably thought up by some well-educated national serviceman. In Orwell's "Animal Farm" you may recall that the pigs were in charge!
I was a "Sparker", what the Americans would call a radioman. The signalman was indeed a "bunting tosser" for the reasons explained by others. The electronic warfare radio operators were called, "Gollies". This was because when the sub-branch started promotion was so quick that we joked that they could get their next rate by saving up the gollies on marmalade jars and sending them away. Their next rate would arrive in the post!
I believe that my beloved sparkers branch badge and the crossed flags of the signalman no longer exist. The jobs have gone the way of all flesh.
Are you still with me? Good man! We'll make an honourary matelot of you yet!

Keep smiling
Jan

Thank You Jan.. for the information and your "Honorary"status bestowed on this unworthy wretch ......but flattered none the less....however I refuse to become a deck stroller or Gull's perch as I can think of at least .5 ...[ can't say 1/2 doz now] Deck strollers who would like to use ME as "bunting" but a kind thought ...I could thank you in your new native tongue..... but don't ask me to spell it, as I have enough problems with my native tongue ......
I would be flattered to be an honorary Matelot if it means a Sailor but I am by inclination .......and like my forebears..... a Stoker cum M.E. rating :o

[qprdave]

Jan

I don't think that any of us could convince Ivor of being anything but a "grease monkey"

Besides who would want someone with a propellor tattooed on his Butt. I mean, arm!!!!!! in the messedeck?

[mike mayer]

I was bosuns mate on the bridge of the Decoy and we were doing a landing or should I say the booties were they were going to attack some poor third world place called ? not allowed to say sworn to secrecy , but somewhere in darkest Lulworth cove. Darken ship routine was the order it went black as soot .On the bridge was the skipper , No.1 OOW , bunts + the looouts .we were creeping ever closer when suddenly out of the darkness was heard the clips coming off a door being opened and then shut the foot steps then the inevitable sickly thud of shin meeting the bridge ladder and followed by "Oh fu....g Bo....s my effing leg" to this the captain replied with quiet efficency Ah good moning soldier are you fit to lead your troops.The reply was muffled but to this day I remember the sharp intake of breath and stifled sniggers from most on the bridge as a certain Bootneck Officer grovelled an apology to the skipper for the intrusion and his reply.
Mike

[harry.gibbon]

Jan,

Lest you have your second ring put in doubt ... might I suggest that you revise your appraisal of the communications branch to include those of us who existed before the so called 'Golly' and who occupied the 3rd W/T office thereafter the EWO whilst the gollies got organised.

However an otherwise good expanation to those who may not know,

Little h

[ivorthediver]

Jan

I don't think that any of us could convince Ivor of being anything but a "grease monkey"

Besides who would want someone with a propellor tattooed on his Butt. I mean, arm!!!!!! in the messedeck?


I SEE.......as you are an authority on tattooed butts...can we assume that you reside in the" MESS DECK"....known as "the head" ? or have you just developed a fetish for hairy arsed stokers ?

[ivorthediver]

I was bosuns mate on the bridge of the Decoy and we were doing a landing or should I say the booties were they were going to attack some poor third world place called ? not allowed to say sworn to secrecy , but somewhere in darkest Lulworth cove. Darken ship routine was the order it went black as soot .On the bridge was the skipper , No.1 OOW , bunts + the looouts .we were creeping ever closer when suddenly out of the darkness was heard the clips coming off a door being opened and then shut the foot steps then the inevitable sickly thud of shin meeting the bridge ladder and followed by "Oh fu....g Bo....s my effing leg" to this the captain replied with quiet efficency Ah good moning soldier are you fit to lead your troops.The reply was muffled but to this day I remember the sharp intake of breath and stifled sniggers from most on the bridge as a certain Bootneck Officer grovelled an apology to the skipper for the intrusion and his reply.
Mike

Thanks Mike.....that made me chuckle ....you paint a good picture here...

[ivorthediver]

Mike Mayor posed a question about names on the thread "Make DO AND MEND" which is as follows....

What do the expressions ..STAND EASY....OUT PIPES,....CLEAR LOWER DECKS

refer to :-

I think I know....... but I am sure some of you can embellish the answer here

and assist the Innocent.

[dennis a feary]

`All & `Sundry', just a little added info ;

The `Jimmy' (as already mentioned No 1 of the ship / boat) of HMS/m OTTER being rather short in stature was not known as `Jimmy the one' but `Jimmy the quarter' - no names - `no pack to drill' !!

Sadsac

[dennis a feary]

IVOR & Co. this MAY get thro - RN sayings ;

Here's one `Risque' saying RN !! All is in `Duble-on-tont' (MY Fronglai) format.

`It is cold enough to freeze the balls off a Brass Monkey' - RUDE - not so !!!

Comes from the fact that in `olden days' cannon balls were stacked in a brass base, (pyramid fashion) so the balls being of cast iron would contract when cold whereas, the brass does not contract thereby allowing the balls to roll around or even fall off the brass base - hence - cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey.

Did the `Hierarchy' allow this to pass ???

In Great Fear & Trembling - Sadsac

[Commodore Armiger]

At the risk of offending those who consider it improper to recommend other sites, the Royal Navy site has a section on naval nicknames and sayings at:

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/training-and-people/rn-life/navy-slang/

[Jan Steer]

Little H, I'm not sure what you mean but if it helps:
Now pay attention you men! Gather round, gather round. Can you all hear me at the back? Right then, when I joined the Royal Navy I qualified as a communications rating. The branch was sub-divided into three separate arms: radio operators (general) the sparkers, radio operators (tactical) the buntings and radio operators (EW- electronic warfare). Until we specialised as ABs we were all RO(U) unclassified. Usually we were allowed to choose which of the specialisations we would like to take but sometimes men were detailed off (due to shortages) to join a particular sub-specialisation. The EW ratings were always called "Gollies" as far as I can remember. Much later they became part of the seaman branch instead of the communications branch but by then the name had stuck and they were forever to be known as "Gollies".
I hope that clarifies things for you all.
Right, fall them out please cox'n.

best wishes
Jan

PS There was another bunch of blokes who generally volunteered from the sparker and golly world to join the hush-hush boys. These were designated RO(S) for "Special". This branch later evolved into the CT or communications technician branch.

[harry.gibbon]

Little H, I'm not sure what you mean but if it helps:
Now pay attention you men! Gather round, gather round. Can you all hear me at the back? Right then, when I joined the Royal Navy I qualified as a communications rating. The branch was sub-divided into three separate arms: radio operators (general) the sparkers, radio operators (tactical) the buntings and radio operators (EW- electronic warfare). Until we specialised as ABs we were all RO(U) unclassified. Usually we were allowed to choose which of the specialisations we would like to take but sometimes men were detailed off (due to shortages) to join a particular sub-specialisation. The EW ratings were always called "Gollies" as far as I can remember. Much later they became part of the seaman branch instead of the communications branch but by then the name had stuck and they were forever to be known as "Gollies".
I hope that clarifies things for you all.
Right, fall them out please cox'n.

best wishes
Jan

PS There was another bunch of blokes who generally volunteered from the sparker and golly world to join the hush-hush boys. These were designated RO(S) for "Special". This branch later evolved into the CT or communications technician branch.
Jan my old communicator friend..

That is it... the info contained in your PS... twas us the (S) Branch geezers...

When I came in there were Buntings, Tel's and Tel(S)'s... then there were ... RO's G; T and (S) .... followed by another change to RO's G ; T; W and (S), as it was when I left.

Then came a change referred to in your main paragraph which I wasn't part of, but I am glad to say that I am still in touch with my old Ganges/Mercury and Tangmere pals some of whom made it to the final transition of CT and some who stayed as General Communicators.

C Ya Little h

Then

[Francis Stanley]

Mike Mayor posed a question about names on the thread "Make DO AND MEND" which is as follows....

What do the expressions ..STAND EASY....OUT PIPES,....CLEAR LOWER DECKS

refer to :-

I think I know....... but I am sure some of you can embellish the answer here

and assist the Innocent.

Ivor
Stand easy (Zambezi) is usually a 10 (ish) minute tea break Out pipes is when its time to leave the mess deck and start work, clear lower deck is when the whole ships company is to be addressed by the Skipper for some reason (Good or bad, usually the latter).

A really horrible officer worth avoiding was known as a pigs orphan

[harry.gibbon]

Re Communicators

and the bit about "hush-hush boys"

We just did what all communications branch folk did .... just never talked about 'work' in the messdeck:D:):p

Little h

[ivorthediver]

At the risk of offending those who consider it improper to recommend other sites, the Royal Navy site has a section on naval nicknames and sayings at:

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/training-and-people/rn-life/navy-slang/


Yes I had a look at this site but it did not cover any of the questions currently under this thread.....or give any answers to the ones being asked either ......

[ivorthediver]

Ivor
Stand easy (Zambezi) is usually a 10 (ish) minute tea break Out pipes is when its time to leave the mess deck and start work, clear lower deck is when the whole ships company is to be addressed by the Skipper for some reason (Good or bad, usually the latter).

A really horrible officer worth avoiding was known as a pigs orphan

My thanks for that Francis.....good to hear from another Diver....and I am sure you will understand the expression "Fizzing Off" and " Narked" and perhaps you would like to "Educate the Deck strollers" I have tried but it is sometimes a lost cause

[TACKLINE]

In my time(ww2) there were 3 parts of the communication branch. Signalmen,Telegraphists,and coders. I believe they are all called RO's nowadays,but thats about all I know about modern day communicators,apart from that semaphore has been given the elbow. Shame.

[harry.gibbon]

Good evening Tackline,

You have just identified a Branch structure which would have been in place prior to the one I inherited and joined.

The Coders were forerunners of the (S)'s so to speak, some remained but most were gone around the time I joined in 1958.

With your contribution one will see the Branch maturing then unfolding and... eventually ... well I wont go there.

Little h

[TCC]

What's a 'Buffer'? (have I got that right?)

[qprdave]

What's a 'Buffer'? (have I got that right?)
Buffer
He is Chief Bosun's Mate and the head seaman. He is accountable to the 1st Lt. for all seamanship tasks and cleanliness of the Seamans part of ship. In the days of sail all the Officers would go through him to get anything done on the ship therefore he was the Buffer between the Officers and crew

[TCC]

Buffer
He is Chief Bosun's Mate and the head seaman. He is accountable to the 1st Lt. for all seamanship tasks and cleanliness of the Seamans part of ship. In the days of sail all the Officers would go through him to get anything done on the ship therefore he was the Buffer between the Officers and crew

Dave,
Thanks for the full answer, .

[Francis Stanley]

My thanks for that Francis.....good to hear from another Diver....and I am sure you will understand the expression "Fizzing Off" and " Narked" and perhaps you would like to "Educate the Deck strollers" I have tried but it is sometimes a lost cause

"Narked" or suffering from Nitrogen Narcosis is the the effect Pressure has on the nitrogen in the divers breathing air - the deeper you go the more pronounced the effect can be, rather like an evening with Ivor in the stokers mess.

"Fizzing off" is a term for decompression when the absorbed gases from a dive come back out of solution in the body due to reduction in pressure - rather like opening a fizzy drink bottle - only as Micro bubbles ie much smaller amounts / size. If a diver does not reduce the pressure slowly (decompression stops) the bubbles can get to a size and amount that can cause problems Decompression ilness or the "bends"
that require tratment in a recompression chamber (a pot)

Phew Physics of diving lecture over, how did I do Ivor? :cool:

[ivorthediver]

"Narked" or suffering from Nitrogen Narcosis is the the effect Pressure has on the nitrogen in the divers breathing air - the deeper you go the more pronounced the effect can be, rather like an evening with Ivor in the stokers mess.

"Fizzing off" is a term for decompression when the absorbed gases from a dive come back out of solution in the body due to reduction in pressure - rather like opening a fizzy drink bottle - only as Micro bubbles ie much smaller amounts / size. If a diver does not reduce the pressure slowly (decompression stops) the bubbles can get to a size and amount that can cause problems Decompression ilness or the "bends"
that require tratment in a recompression chamber (a pot)

Phew Physics of diving lecture over, how did I do Ivor? :cool:

Excellent and correct on every point my friend ......you can award yourself an extra bacon roll with brown source , and a couple of pints to negate the risk of Dehydration ........Thats an Order.......[mines a couple of tots] ;)

[Fairlead]

The RO(U) referred to previously was an idea we adopted from the Canadians - which had failed for them a few years earlier! Not much changes then. Surprise surprise it did not work in the RN either - one reason being that the poor blighters who were victim of this scheme were known as RO Usless! Other small sections of the branch which have not been mentioned yet was the ROSM (RO Submarines). the Tel(Flying) until about 1958 and the Para trained Tels of 148 Battery. All of whom received extra training and pay!
As for Bunting Tossers - I am afraid they have gone for good - V/S is now conducted by the Seaman Specialist Branch.

Fairlead

[gunnersmate]

Greeting's Ivor,
I think we should make you an honorary Sailor, we'll make you a three badge stoker with a couple of gongs. C. D. M. V. D. and scar, that should do for a start. See what the lads on the messdeck think?

Oh before I forget, congratulations on your promotion? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Baz.

[harry.gibbon]

Greeting's Ivor,
I think we should make you an honorary Sailor, we'll make you a three badge stoker with a couple of gongs. C. D. M. V. D. and scar, that should do for a start. See what the lads on the messdeck think?

Oh before I forget, congratulations on your promotion? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Baz.
Baz and Ivor,

Might I suggest from the messdeck ... CDFVD and Scar plus Bar, backdated and with accelerated advancement confirmed in his comic cuts.


Little h

[qprdave]

And a Chrome plated wheel spanner

I think that he should be put in the T.A.S. Mess so that he can be raised properly.

Never had a Commodore victualled in the mess before.!!!!!!!!!!!!

[harry.gibbon]

I think a mess member might just have 'pinged' your suggestion and that will then be 'echoed' around the messdeck.:D;)

However in a T.A.S. mess a spanner might get wrenched from its owner so better to keep a close watch on ones' range and bearing

Little h

[ivorthediver]

Well...............


Thank you Harry ,Dave, Baz.............I am humbled by your kindness.

and grateful of your friendship ............:o

[harry.gibbon]

and another...'Church Key' ie can opener (of the 2 per day variety)

Little h

[alanbenn]

Well Ivor being an ex-greenie I think the suggestion is a 'bright' idea and I for one would be all for it, but then others may take a 'Dim' view of the suggestion.

The only solution I'm afraid is to get so far up the ranks you can then tell everyone what they should do!!!

Best of luck.

Alan

[ivorthediver]

Well Ivor being an ex-greenie I think the suggestion is a 'bright' idea and I for one would be all for it, but then others may take a 'Dim' view of the suggestion.

The only solution I'm afraid is to get so far up the ranks you can then tell everyone what they should do!!!

Best of luck.

Alan

Thanks for the advice Alan......which seems to be sound advice......

Sorry if I am wheezing a bit I have been presented with a set of Medal Ribbon's with a bl..dy great chrome pair of crossed Spanners which I have been informed is the highest possible award an Officer can be awarded short of being Knighted .
Seems to be a hell of an encumbrance to have to be pinned to my No1s
and the Admiral Spewforth Spitstraight said he had not seen the like before,
and asked me who had presented it to me...I explained that in was left in my cabin with an explanatory note.
I thought it was the lads winding me up , but when I went out without them on the Stokers said it may be taken the wrong way by the higher archy and show disrespect for the award, which may effect my next promotion ...what do you think..? :confused:

[alanbenn]

Well Ivor a word of warning my friend.......these 'stokers' start off by offering gifts such as 'crossed spanners' then before you know it they'll be trying to give you a 'Golden rivet'........obviously I was warned of this by my Dad and ex GI, so was always alert to their devious tricks, just thought I should pass on the advice.

It usually starts with a drink or two, then proposing a toast 'bottoms up'

If it gets to that stage mate....you're in trouble, although your spanners might come in quite handy!!

Regards
Alan

[ivorthediver]

Well Ivor a word of warning my friend.......these 'stokers' start off by offering gifts such as 'crossed spanners' then before you know it they'll be trying to give you a 'Golden rivet'........obviously I was warned of this by my Dad and ex GI, so was always alert to their devious tricks, just thought I should pass on the advice.

It usually starts with a drink or two, then proposing a toast 'bottoms up'

If it gets to that stage mate....you're in trouble, although your spanners might come in quite handy!!

Regards
Alan

Thank you Alan,

I remember when I was an apprentice being told all about the "Golden Rivet"
by the foreman on nights.. and was horrified to think that this went on, but when he burst out laughing I new it was a wind up

He was an orderly in the Army and used to come out with all the gory details of FFI inspections and how they treated the poor "patient" with a stainless steel umbrella ...made my young blood run cold.....:eek:

[Hixy]

NAVAL NICKNAMES

Possibly the most charming tradition of the British Navy is its unchanging spirit of fraternity. It is a sacred fact that once naval men have been "old ships" (old shipmates) there exists-with few exceptions—forever after a spirit of camaraderie amongst them.

What helps to preserve this affinity is the-fact that ninety-five per cent, of the men of the British Navy hail one another by a nickname, a nickname that sticks to each mortal for the term of his nautical career, aye, and for many years after.

A doting mother may have had her first-born baptized Clarence Ivor Agustus White but, should he join the Navy he will only be accepted as " Knocker." The " tiffy " recruit may feel justifiably proud of being called Alexander Graham Bell, but his shipmates will only know him as " Daisy "; the Navy List may regally be headed by Admiral of the Fleet Sir Felix Montague St. Finbar de Sales Murphy, but the Lower Deck will acknowledge him only as " Spud "— simply that and nothing more.

Naval officers usually address one another by their sur¬names; lower deck ratings scarcely ever do. Jack clings loyally to the fraternal and spurns the conventional. He addresses his neighbour either by his Christian name or a nickname and, even if he cannot recall either of these, he will convert the surname into a Christian name by flavouring it with the vesture of intimacy. For instance, if he notes that Brown, Jones, Robinson or Harper is not conspicuously tall enough to be dubbed Lofty, diminutive enough to be styled Shorty, slim enough to be called Snakey, auburn-aired enough to be termed Ginger, dark-skinned enough to be named Nigger, he would just hail them fraternally Browny, Joney, Robbie, Harps, or Harpy. In such circumstances names like Thompson, Johnson, Lawrence, Ferguson, Clements and West are more intimately interpreted as Tomo., Johno., Lawrie., Fergy., Clemo. and Westo., while again, cognomens like Connor, Nichols, Davies, Donovan and Cooper are not infrequently appreviated to Conn., Nick., Dave., Dun. and Coops.—unless, be it noted, nationality asserts its stronger claims, in which Mick Connor, Taff Nichols, Tim Donovanand Scowse. Davies may find themselves hailed simply as Mick, Taff and Scowse. Scowse.

Quite a large number of nicknames in the Service are of the double-barreled kidney such as Nobby Clarke, Wiggie Bennett. Shiner Wright. etc. but, in the main, however, nick¬names are derived from celebrities and this brazenly, irres¬pective of gender. Murphy does not mind the "Spud," nor Brookes the " Rajah," nor Burns the honourable appellative of " Bobbie." but I am sure that when they join the Navy, Messrs. Bell. Ford and Gray must have found it not a little embarrassing on very soon being hailed as Daisy, Florrie and Dolly respectively. If a Derek Tilly entered the Navy he would promptly be assigned the more ornamental tally of Vesta : while a man called Garbo (or even Garber) must be stoically prepared to be accepted as Greta ; again, the most bcwhiskered he-man afloat whose name happens to be Temple must prepare to recognise himself in future as nothing more virile than Shirley.

In his care-free partiality to nicknames, Jack docs not blush to discriminate between celebrities and notorieties. Bruce Landsbury, a hardened drinker answers to " George" without a twinge of conscience, while Stanley Booth, a notorious delinquent, accepts the caption of " General" without the vestige of a blush. Conversely, an ardent Salvationist called Todd, be he ever so saintly, must meekly accept the shady correlative of " Sweeney," Sylvester Turpin may be the mirror of all truth and honesty, but his shipmates will warmly acclaim him as "Dick" (just the same as they greet every Sheppard as " Jack " and every King as " Tom "), and that charitable and deeply-devout young coder, so popular with all his shipmates, Damien Wesley Peace, is doomed to be hailed as " Charlie " as long as he ploughs the briny.

As I have pointed out, nicknames are adapted from characters who have caught the public eye in all branches of life—actors, cinema stars, bookies, evangelists, rogues, boxers, murderers and millionaires. They are, however, subject to change, as in the case of a character whose popularity or notoriety eclipses that of a namesake of a former generation. In 1910 (I remember) all Lees were called John in acknowledgment of " the man they could not hang." Today every Lee is a Tancy - a welcome change. I also .recall about that stereotyped nicknames, the etymology of which it may be interesting to trace. I have gone to much trouble, and had to listen to many heated arguments in order to get this infor¬mation and, while I have every reason to believe it to be authentic, clearly there can be no finality on matters of this kind. So now let us review some of the interesting personnel. Spike Sullivan, Jerry Driscoll, Pedlar Palmer, Jimmy Wilde arid Tancy Lee were boxers, of rare merit, the first two being naval champions. (Mr. Sullivan, by the way, got his " Spike " from an efficient wire-splicer of a generation before); Jumper Collins was a champion jumper; Sweeney Todd, the demon barber who bumped off customers while . Shaving them and Rattler Morgan emerges from a song hail¬ing him as a champion down our way “playing his tanner mouth-organ."

BOGIE KNIGHT is derived from a pantomimic character; Bogie (bogie man) being associated with the night.

DUSTY MILLER has two significations: (I) The trade of a miller being associated with flour-dust. (2) -When soft bread as a ration made its welcome debut to the Royal Navy the first naval contractor to supply it was the firm of Andrew Miller. The dust caused by the bread being stowed in the bread-room gave rise to the " Dusty."

NOBBY CLARKE, the most immutable of all nicknames, hails from the Army. Clarke was confounded with " clerk " and the clerks of the early part of last century were indigent, shabby-genteel lads who did great work and were expected to dress well on a starvation wage. They however tried to raise their social prestige by putting on airs and " doing the grand," and to such an extent were they Successful that they were regarded as " nobs " (i.e. toffs), and were often referred to as nobby clerks. Nob, by the way, as a synonym for an " upper ten" guy comes from university reference books where graduates of high social standing have "nob" (short for nobility),after their names to indicate that they are of noble blood—God bless the mark.

BUCK TAYLOR originated in much the same way. The smart tailors were patronised by " bucks," those sublime ornaments of fashion like Beau Brummel, whose stupendous contribution to the social upkeep was a display of finery in apparel.

SPUD MURPHY is essentially Irish. The potato was a-staple food of the Irish poor during a century of want and distress, and so devoted were they to the,"spud" (which was slang) that it grew, to be the appellative of many Irish names— Murphy, Maloney, Muldowney, Gilligan, Hannigan, Callaghan and Brannigan. Of these names Murphy is the commonest, so " Spud" became associated more with Murphy than any of the others. Indeed, potatoes were often called " Murphies " and " Spud," which was once the con¬comitant of Mick, Tim or Pat, was duly assigned as the monopoly of Mr. Murphy himself.

HOOKY WALKER is believed by many to be a seafaring celebrity with a hook for an arm. This is not so ; " Hooky Walker " does not spring from a name but from a phrase which was current round about 1810. The term was identified with something suspiciously untrue or cryptically superstitious. " That's all Hooky Walker," was the sceptic's retort, or the modern equivalent for " You're kidding."

KNOCKER WHITE has also a dual claim. The one declares him to have been a rough and tough pugilist whom his associates acclaimed as the " knocker " ; the other recounts of a Chinese washerman who, when soliciting. patronage for his crude laundry qualifications, was famed for his frank avowal that he could " knock 'em white," i.e. wash the clothes white.

DODGER LONG is yet another dual claim. A detective called Long, because of his great penchant for shadowing, was famed among ex-gaol-birds as " The Dodger." Another version declares that Dodger Long is but a corruption of some rollicking old ditty, " Dodge along."

PONY MORE (or Moore) was a famous racing celebrity who had a great habit of saying, " I'll bet you a pony! " A " pony " at that period was the slang expression for £25, so dubbed because the sum was usually assessed as the price of a pony.

SPIKE SULLIVAN was a gigantic Irishman of the seventies. He was a skilful seaman and had no equal in the art of handling a marline-spike.

PINCHER MARTIN—Somewhere between the forties and the fifties of last century, Captain Martin (afterwards Admiral Sir W. Martin) came into prominence. Renowned for his remarkable forensic skill in cornering or tripping-up a witness or delinquent at defaulters or Courts of Inquiry, he was promptly dubbed the Pincher both by officers and men.

TUG WILSON—Not satisfied with the manner in which a ship came to anchor, an admiral named Wilson sent a signal, ordering the ship to unmoor, proceed outside the breakwater and return to anchorage in a more creditable manner. The repetition failed to satisf/'him so he sent a further signal to the captain of the offending ship, this time an ultimatum—to proceed outside and return once more, and if the evolution was not this time performed satisfactorily, he (the Admiral) would have his flagship take the erring ship in tow—a derisive spectacle for every ship in the fleet. Ever since that incident every Wilson has been " Tug."

WIGGIE BENNETT'S origin is said to be anecdotal. It is believed to refer to the exploits of a devil-may-care named Bennett, which always resulted in his being up before his superiors for a " wigging." The name was thus handed down to all Bennetts.

The following' are the best-known double-barreled nick¬names and may be accepted as the stereotyped category:

Darby Allen, Nobby Clarke, Wiggie Bennett, Pony More, Dusty Miller, Dodger Long, Jerry Driscoll, Slinger Woods, Daisy Bell, Jerry Lake, Hookey Walker, Billy Williams, Jack Doyle, Sexton Blake, Charlie Mitchell, Pincher Martin, Steve Donoghue, Cutts Kennedy Brigham Young, Darby Kelly, Nobby Hall, Spike Sullivan, Sweeney Todd, Shiner Wright, Spud Murphy, Bogie Knight, Knocker White, Florrie Ford, Jimmy Greene, Polly Hopkins, Jim Crowe, Tim Daly, Olive Hoyle, Donkey Bray, Bobby Burns, Charlie Chaplin, Sky Turner, Stienie Morrison, Major Bates, Nobby Grant, Dixie Dean, Whacker Payne, Rattler Morgan, Jumper Collins, Buck Taylor, Bagsey Baker, Dolly Gray, Jackie Fisher, Tancy Lee, Jack Frost, Paddy Malone, Nat Gould, Windy Gale, Bungy Edwards, Teddy Weeks, Pusser Bond, Tom King.

Lastly there is the idiosyncratic type of nickname. In the navy any in any other branch of life, the potterer, the faddist, the enthusiast or fanatic does not escape notice. He very quickly is assigned a label indicative of his bent, and one that may by no means be very ornamental.

I once wondered why a certain chief boatswain's mate was known to the troops as " Old Matchsticks," and I learned that every time the commander gave the order to clear up decks the C.B.M. supplemented with " and pick up all your match-sticks! " A very efficient commander (whom I will call Coombes—fictitious) had a regrettable habit of scratching his head violently when, perplexed. This earned him the unmerited sobriquets of Crabby Coombes and Lousy Luke for years ; indeed I doubt if the nicknames ever left him. Blinker Hall was quite young when the Navy christened him Blinker—but he was still Blinker when he finished as an admiral. A chief gunner's mate, whose mouth after much oratory became very liquefied, was duly nominated " Squegee " ; a P.O. whose lips protrude rather prominently is, to this day, called Donald Duck ; another P.O.. who could not get reconciled to the stiff collar (on abandoning the blue one) developed the habit of moving his head backwards and forwards for his greater ease: this oddity earned him the title of " Tom Nod " ; a stoker who supplemented his income by washing blankets became duly esteemed as Tom Blanket, and a lieutenant-commander, on whose nose there frequently gathered a bead of perspiration, became irreverently famed as " Dewdrop."

Not infrequently one hears the quaint misnomer type of nickname which bears testimony to Jack's ironic sense of humour. Here one is assigned the appellative which typifies the very opposite to that which characterizes him. A notably reserved and silent individual is labelled " Noisy," a very ignorant person may be dubbed " Tom Culture," a very ugly man, " Queenie," and an exceedingly slow and dilatory mortal, " Speedy," "Swift," "Gate-crasher" or "Lightning". The sobriquet of the captain of the heads (the rating in charge of the lavatories) was, not long ago, anything but ornamental, and the fundamental danger of all nicknames (however unintended to hurt) is their marked liability to stick.

However, not four out of every hundred ratings in the King's Royal Navy are ever known or hailed by their formal baptismal surnames. No one is ever addressed as plain Brown, Jones or Robinson - unless he is extremely unpopular.

[berry]

G'day Frank,-marvellously comprehensive info.regarding sobriquets,had I known from whence Pincher came from back in the sixties I would have given that buggar Martin a bit of stick!
First rate stuff indeed,
Sid

[ltotenby]

That was great reading Frank, enjoyed it a lot... George

[Jan Steer]

Absolutely fascinating stuff! Thankyou for an excellent post. In my time I don't recall a Daisy Bell but we had plenty of Dingers. When I worked as a naval sparker(radio operator) in a crabfat (RAF) communication centre nicknames were in evidence there too. Oddly they seemed not to follow the pattern that we observed in the RN. For instance on the watch we had blokes called for example, Ginger white etc. I never could get my head around their way of thinking! In the fleet I also remember that Bogie Knights were often called Darky Knight and not just because they were dark skinned!
Sadly as my naval service drew to a close the traditional nicknames were beginning to drop out of fashion and I remember one youngster emphatically stating that we were not to call him Blood Reid as he hated it and much preferred to be called Brian. This of course was the wrong thing to say and forever afterwards he was called Blood!

Happy days
Jan

[qprdave]

Stoker on the Hermes whose name was Atack. Everyone knew him as Heart!!!!

[Jan Steer]

There were many other 'one offs'. I remember a Scrumpy Bulmer!

For you non-Brits: Scrumpy is a UK westcountry coloquilism for cider and Bulmer's was/is(?) a commercial cider company.

regards
Jan

[astraltrader]

Brilliant post Frank - only just caught up with it!

[oldsalt]

I was known as Dusty but my son in the RAF was called Windy after the Miller in Candlewick Green.

[willhastie]

wasent until i was drafted from barnstone to lochinvar that i found out my handle had been sweetpee,(i was skin now prune skin)

[John Odom]

Hixy, the research to produce that was worth a doctoral degree!

[Vegaskip]

I know it is not quite the same, but what about ...General Payment came on board with his secretary Miss Musters, accompanied by his Dutch chaufer,Naffi Van Driver and his German assistant Hands To Tea.

any one know any more?.

[harry.gibbon]

The gardeners:- Kurt D. Grasse and his french counterpart Lawen M'ower

Little h

[Jan Steer]

Don't forget RO Tate and POME Granite.

Jan

[Jan Steer]

Apart from all the personal nicknames there were names given to the jobs within branches too. Let's see what I remember:
Artificers of any persuasion were always "Tiffies".
Radio Operators were called "Sparks" and known collectively as "Sparkers".
Signalmen were "Buntings" named of course for the flag material.
"Stokers" were/are mechanical engineers. Originally they would have been stoking the ship's boilers.
Electricians were "Greenies" This after the green ring between the gold ones worn by merchant navy electrical officers.
Radio electricians were "Pinkies" but I've no idea why. Maybe someone can enlighten us all on that one.
Seaman were always "Dabtoes" or "Dabbers".
Stewards as "plate layers" and writers were "scribes".
The sick berth attendants were either "poultice wallopers" or "scab lifters".
The much disliked regulators or patrolmen were "boneheads" or "crushers"
Their boss, the Master At Arms, was the "Jossman" or "Joss". From the days of the China station I believe.
Naval cooks were always cooks but in my latter days they all seemed to be known as "Chef".
Officers too had a set of names, some of them even printable here!! Ha Ha.
The Captain was known by the crew as "The old man" but the wardroom often referred to him as "Father".
The First Lieutenant was "The Jimmy" or "Jimmy the one".
Others were named after their jobs. For instance the gunnery officer would be "Guns", the medical officer "Doc" and so on.
Have I forgotten anyone?

Best wishes
Jan

[Wombat]

Thanks Jan,

I remember my father referring to the Captain of HMS Kent as "The Old Man"

Interesting thread.

Wombat,
(James).

[qprdave]

That is a common name that the Skipper was called. Most others can't be printed on this forum

[qprdave]

The sick berth attendants were either "poultice wallopers" or "scab lifters".
The much disliked regulators or patrolmen were "boneheads" or "crushers"
Their boss, the Master At Arms, was the "Jossman" or "Joss". From the days of the China station I believe.

Sick Bay Tiffy

The next two I was going to tell you. But, worried about being banned from posting on this forum decided to keep quiet!!!!!

[harry.gibbon]

The sick berth attendants were either "poultice wallopers" or "scab lifters".
The much disliked regulators or patrolmen were "boneheads" or "crushers"
Their boss, the Master At Arms, was the "Jossman" or "Joss". From the days of the China station I believe.

Sick Bay Tiffy

The next two I was going to tell you. But, worried about being banned from posting on this forum decided to keep quiet!!!!!
Dave best keep the brolly under wraps mate!!!!! little h

[Hixy]

Apart from all the personal nicknames there were names given to the jobs within branches too. Let's see what I remember:
Artificers of any persuasion were always "Tiffies".
Radio Operators were called "Sparks" and known collectively as "Sparkers".
Signalmen were "Buntings" named of course for the flag material.
"Stokers" were/are mechanical engineers. Originally they would have been stoking the ship's boilers.
Electricians were "Greenies" This after the green ring between the gold ones worn by merchant navy electrical officers.
Radio electricians were "Pinkies" but I've no idea why. Maybe someone can enlighten us all on that one.
Seaman were always "Dabtoes" or "Dabbers".
Stewards as "plate layers" and writers were "scribes".
The sick berth attendants were either "poultice wallopers" or "scab lifters".
The much disliked regulators or patrolmen were "boneheads" or "crushers"
Their boss, the Master At Arms, was the "Jossman" or "Joss". From the days of the China station I believe.
Naval cooks were always cooks but in my latter days they all seemed to be known as "Chef".
Officers too had a set of names, some of them even printable here!! Ha Ha.
The Captain was known by the crew as "The old man" but the wardroom often referred to him as "Father".
The First Lieutenant was "The Jimmy" or "Jimmy the one".
Others were named after their jobs. For instance the gunnery officer would be "Guns", the medical officer "Doc" and so on.
Have I forgotten anyone?

Best wishes
Jan

Jan this does bring back some memories... The RAN was much the same as the RN and copied most of the things they had up until the 80's. Some of the names the RAN had, and differed slightly from the RN, were:

Stewards = Beagles
Writers = Scribes or White Mafia
Mechanical Engineers = Stokers or Dusties (also sometimes referred to as the Purple Empire)
Shipwrights = Wood butchers
Cooks = tucker f...ers
Seamen = Dibdabs or Deckapes
Tas rates = Fish heads
Victuallers = Starvos
Artificers = 90 day wonders

The rest went pretty much the way of the RN.

Your mention of the Electrical Branch and Greenies also brings to light the silk colouring between the rings of a Grunters rank. These were:

Engineering = Purple
Surgeons = Red
Pursers = White
Dentists = Orange
Instructors = Light Blue
Shipwrights = Silver Grey
Wardmaster = (Medical assistants) Maroon
Electrical = Dark Green
Ordnance = Dark Blue

Executive Branch officers (Seaman & Communications) were the only branch not to have an identifying colour between the rings. The whole lot can be seen here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Navy_officer_rank_insignia

When I joined the RAN in 1968 the only Officers wearing colours were Doctors and Dentists, the rest had been phased out some time before.

[harry.gibbon]

Hello again Frank..

Good posting that! now it must be recognised why the Exec Branch folk are so well co-ordinated;) in that we/they never needed distinquishing features for their heirarchy we just get/got on with the job at hand and as necessary helped out or as they would say nowadays facilitated situations for the other branches! I shall now take cover as you may have to also being an ex communicator.:D:D c ya mate

Little h

[Jan Steer]

Good stuff Frank. I did forget one lot after all. The stores rates were known as "Jack Dusties". Remember them? They were the lot that after selling a lanyard would close slops for a month to stock take!!
As you say in our day the only "Grunters" to have silk between their rings were the surgeon and dentist but I do recall the marine architects we had onboard one time wore grey between theirs.
Signal officers wore a white handkerchief in their breast pocket traditionally so that on the bridge they could be easily recognised. As my career drew to a close I used to point this out to the young piglets but I'm afraid it all fell on deaf ears.

Happy days
Jan

[Buffer]

My nickname was Pony, & still is with many. I was told 2 versions of this.

1. All RN personnel with the surname Moore are called Pony after the Dartmoor Ponies.

2. All Pony Moores have the Speed of a Race Horse, The strength of a Cart Horse and the Brains of a Rocking Horse.

There used to be an offical RN list of nicknames published in BR1 (if i remember correctly) and it was also listed in the Old Seamanship Manuals I was issued with when I joined up.

[gfed]

Greetings, here are a few of the ones that were used in the Canadian Navy, although some are rarely heard these days. The origins of most stem from the RN, but others are obscure:

Medical Assistant - Tiffy, Chancre Bos'n or Doc
Signalman - Bunting Tosser
Weapons Officers - Toads
Gunnery Officer - Brick Chucker
Boatswain - Deck Ape
Chaplain - Sin Bos'n
P&RT Instructor - Muscle Bos'n
Sonarman - Ping Bos'n
Radiomen - Radio Ladies
IROQUOIS Class Sailors - 280 (hull number of first of class) Ladies
PROTECTEUR Class Sailors - Tanker Wankers
Coxswain - Swain
Any Sailor - Matelot or Hairy Bag

[Tim Cotey]

Most of the phrase are covered here but this is always a fun book to leave around the ship/office/home

http://www.amazon.ca/Loose-Cannon-Flogs-Horse-Theres/dp/0070328773

This is a fun book that I used as Coswain for Routine Orders entires. Gave the crew the opportunity to discuss the phrae and it's origins...right up until someone found it in my office. Then the challenge was to sneak in to find the correct answer, thus winning the 'prize'

Tim

[TCC]

.. as I still use 'lets clear the decks' a lot in work. One day, I realised I was using a nautical saying and brought up several others in daily use. I can't remeber them now, sorry.... getting old. ;-)

And how about 'Shaping like a half-paid officer' and 'slack asre trimmer'?

But there's also old army sayings in use (I think some of them are pre-WW2 from the sub-continent) such as:

Dekko: as in 'give us a dekko at that' = 'can I have a look at that'.

'Cushy' as in 'that's a cushy job' = 'that's an easy job'

'Lie doggo' = stay still,

'graft' = work,

'goulie' or 'goulies' = testicle(s),

'scoff' = food (I didn't know about that one)

'brew'... I di't know that was one of those that travelled over.

http://www.geocities.com/faskew/Colonial/Glossary/British.htm

[tim lewin]

book- postage....depends on size and weight of book, would not expect more than £5 surface mail, £10 airmail and £30 by special courier.
tim

[qprdave]

What about
"Green Rub" Unfairly treated
"Chocker" Fed up
"Pier Head Jump" Drafted with very short notice

[John O'Callaghan]

Hi All.Many of these words and phrases came from sailors and soldiers importing them from foreign languages (often corrupted).People stationed inthe Middle East, India, China or even in France in WW1 took up a smattering of the local idiom.I suppose even today troops in Iraq and Afghanistan have their own vocabulary.
Cheers John O'C.

[Anson6423]

I used to work with a guy named Arthur Day. Of course, he was known as "12 Hours".

[Ednamay]

My father had several names, some of which followed him out of the service.

Of course, he was always Guns, but in the 20s (after WW1) when they had a bit of time he became Biff, because he boxed for his ship (? bantam weight? smallest and lightest?). When he switched to football he became Boots, but that did not stick.

When he was recalled for WW2, his old acquaintances still used Biff, but he soon became Pop, for two reasons - old sailor = Popeye, but he went grey / white early = Pop.

After the war, on a trip to London, we went to visit an ex-navy friend who had a pub in Covent Garden, where the barman recognised my father as Biff from the 1920s !!!!!!!!

Edna

[steve roberts]

While going through my Mothers letters from my Father during WW2 I was amazed how many slang terms and titles used in them.He was RAF but some of the terms aresuprisingly Naval in origin.Most refer to deaths and the slang for it rather than mention the actual word.Most I know the origins of but some I dont.I will do a list and see if anyone else knows the origins.(No printing in full the Naughty ones).
Bought it.
Buy thr farm.
Kicked the bucket.
Now some more obscure ones,comments welcome!!!
Bite the bullet.
Scuttle butt.
Fubar.
Snafu.
Square shoulders.
Blow your own trumpet.
Gone Banana's
Swining the lead.
Square meal.
Hitting the nail on the head.
Dodging the Flak.
Riviting.
As I said some are obvious but some rather obscure. Steve.:D:D:D

[qprdave]

I have heard of a some of them of them, Steve

SNAFU:- Situation normal. all F***ked up

Square Meal:- In the days of sail. Sailors "plates" were made of wood and square. Hence the name square meals

FUBAR:- "f**ked up beyond all repair," OT "f**ked up beyond all recognition,"

Swing the lead:- Sailors used to use lines weighted with lead in order to check how deep the water was beneath their ships. The lazier mariners skimped on the task and just swung the lead in the air, calling out a fictitious depth.

Bite the bullet:- In the days before effective anesthetics soldiers were given bullets to bite on to help them endure pain

Scuttle Butt:- The term corresponds to the iconic colloquial concept of a water cooler in an office setting, which at times becomes the locus of congregation and casual discussion. Water for immediate consumption on a sailing ship was conventionally stored in a scuttled butt: A butt (cask) which had been scuttled by making a hole in it so the water could be withdrawn. Since sailors exchanged gossip when they gathered at the scuttlebutt for a drink of water, scuttlebutt became Navy slang for gossip or rumours.

[INVINCIBLE]

Ivor, the Jimmy or Jimmy the one is also the Captain's deputy. If anything were to happen to the captain to put him out of action, the 1st Lieutenant would take over.
The Captain was referred to as "The Old Man" in both the RN and the Merchant service. However, our lords and masters (the Officers) often referred to him as "father". The Officers, in my time anyway, were usually referred to out of their earshot at least, as "The Pigs" or "The grunters". This was, of course, derogatory but good humoured and was probably thought up by some well-educated national serviceman. In Orwell's "Animal Farm" you may recall that the pigs were in charge!
I was a "Sparker", what the Americans would call a radioman. The signalman was indeed a "bunting tosser" for the reasons explained by others. The electronic warfare radio operators were called, "Gollies". This was because when the sub-branch started promotion was so quick that we joked that they could get their next rate by saving up the gollies on marmalade jars and sending them away. Their next rate would arrive in the post!
I believe that my beloved sparkers branch badge and the crossed flags of the signalman no longer exist. The jobs have gone the way of all flesh.
Are you still with me? Good man! We'll make an honourary matelot of you yet!

Keep smiling
Jan

Mention of "Gollies" reminds me of when we were in Aden with the booties during the troubles. The booties were in trouble for calling the locals "Wogs" and an order was published instructing them not to refer to "Wogs" anymore. From that moment on the RMs referred to the locals as "Gollies".

[steve roberts]

Hi Invincible. I believe the same problem came about down the Falklands.The Locals were refered to as "Bennies" after the character in the TV Programme "Crossroads" This was ok until some one lent a local a Vidio of said show.They were not amused!! Order went out to stop calling them by that nickname.Name was changed to "Still" You canwork that one out I hope? Steve.:D:D

[Polycell]

Wasn't 'tossing the bunting' the act of raising and lowering the signal flags - Hence the nickname ;)Yes it was

[ltotenby]

Great explenations Dave - but, going back to 'Jimmy' - No.1 - 1st Lt, etc.... where did the 'name' Jimmy come from in the first place to desribe this gentleman.... George:)

[astraltrader]

Not sure how true this is George, but I seem to remember it has something to do with King James the First.

James the First
James 1
Jim the First
Jim 1
Jimmy the 1 [one]. ??


Perhaps he was looked upon as the First Lt to the Almighty??? :confused::confused:


Err - yes, I know - by the time I got it down in type it does look pretty damn weak but treat it as a [barely] working theory!!! :D

[ltotenby]

That sounds just as good as anything else Terry (Exeter) - so until such times as, that for me will be 'my jimmy'................. Cheers George:)

[Ednamay]

My reading is a bit catholic and recently I came across a quote:-

'...the old soldiers' philosophy of always eating sleeping and making love whenever the opportunity presented, in case it might be their last chance'

I thought I remembered something similar:-

' eat, sleep and kiss the girls whenever you can, the next port may be a long way away' - or something similar.

Any comments? and what does it say about time away?!

Edna

[oldsalt]

Don't know that one Ednamay, but two sayings come to mind giving an insight to a matelots mind. "First turn of the screw, all debts paid" & "All cats are black in the dark" Make what you will of those.

[edwin astill]

Reminds me - don't know why - of the ditty my father (a soldier) used to sing:

Soldiers half a crown
Sailors half a guinea
Big fat men, two pound ten
Dirty kids a penny.

Mum, a sailor's daughter used to object to the fact that matelots had to pay more.

Edwin

[Ednamay]

I also remember "out at sea, out of sight, out of mind" - I wonder about that one!
Edna

[steve roberts]

Hi Edna.There is always the old saying,"Never trust a sailor,he has a wife in every port!"
Regards Steve.

[Ednamay]

Reminds me of 'He's gone ashore to see his home party and get his feet under the table' !!!

Edna

[Ednamay]

When my mother, tidying up, had disposed of something 'which might come in useful', my father's regular quote was "well, I suppose it's now over the side and deep in the oggin"

Any comments?? Edna

[steve roberts]

Hi Edna.Things were often said to "Be Given the Deep Six" when thrown overboard.I take it to mean a fathom or more down!:D
Regards Steve.

[Scurs]

Steve...............another well known term for it was to "Give it a float test" :D

[Ednamay]

Another one that comes to mind is 'Onto the yardarm, heave it aloft' - this was in relation to the washing line in the backgarden.

When I was younger and travelling(!) I noticed that around Portsmouth and Plymouth there were VERY tall posts and lines for the washing, and the top one was operated with ?? eyes and cleats?? (please correct as necessary). I was encouraged to raise it with 'Two, Six, haul!' and someone else once told me this was from the jobs, and number, of the gun crew.

Now let's have some comments!

Edna

[tjstoneman]

"By the deep, six" (post #8) is actually six fathoms, not one. The leadline (a rope used for measuring the depth of water) was marked off at certain intervals (2, 3, 5, 7, 10 fathoms etc) with bits of leather, calico, serge and other materials. When the lead on the end of the line touched the seabed, the leadsman would call out the depth, based on the type of cloth which had last passed through his hands as he paid out the line. If the cloth was at sea level, the cry would be "By the mark three!" (or whatever). If the cloth was well below the surface, he'd call out his estimate of the depth with the cry "By the deep, eight!" or whatever. Thus "By the deep, six!" means six fathoms of water below the surface. (Incidentally, this is said to be the origin of the pen-name "Mark Twain" - Samuel Langhorne Clemens used to work on the Mississippi riverboats, and two fathoms of water would have been enough for such a vessel to navigate in safety.)
Tim

[Dreadnought]

You are right there Tim, in fact the hand Lead Line was 25 fathoms in length, and the Leadsman would throw it forward and with the weight on the bottom, would take his measurement when the line became vertical.

Giving something the "deep six" today is to effectiovely give it a "float test" as Scurs mentions in post #9. Six was apparently chosen for the expression becasue it was greater than the draught of most arships.

[Scurs]

..........Edna, tell you what, can't speak for everyone, but old sayings and terms die hard! I left the RN in 1968, but even now, unintentional discarding of something, provokes the cynical:-

"...tinkle, tinkle, little spoon.......", often uttered when an unnoticed eating utensil splashed down the gash shute together with the washing up water!

As we have ladies present, I will not comment on other terms I still use! :D:D
Many moons ago, in a public cinema, my wife disowned me for shouting in a loud voice, "GOOD OLD FRED", when the name "Fred Quimby" appeared on screen!! Those of us who served, will doubtless recall why! :rolleyes:

[harry.gibbon]

Good old fred reminded me of the good old ... 'Mickey Duck' cartoons that is of course Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck

Little h

[steve roberts]

Hi Edna. Re post #10 and "Two-six-heave.
It probably does refer to guns crews in Nelsons times,when a 32 pounder on the lower gun deck could have a crew of up to fifteen men(Not counting the powder monkey) and crews were numbered and would respond to an order containing their number.Where just Two-six came from though I don't know,if it only took two persons to heave a gun up to a port,it must have been really light!.The term was certainly still in use in my day(No I DID NOT serve under Nelson:D) and was used in general for all jobs involved with rope pulling.
Regards Steve.

[Dreadnought]

There appear to be two explanations for this saying. Firstly, as Steve says, it is thought to be the instruction to the numbered gun crew members for hauling the gun back into position after re-loading.

Again, as Steve says, this appears a bit odd. According to a student notebook of 1835 (HMS Excellent), for a thirteen man crew on a 32 pounder, number two was positioned behind the breech, on the right hand side (looking from behind); number two being on the left hand side. Number six was also on the right hand side, and was positioned about level with the trunnion. Bit difficult to see how they alone could move a three and a half ton gun. Earlier and smaller guns which only had a six man crew might be more realistic. In this case number two was responsible for turning the gun and raising the gun barrel, and, number six was the powder monkey who re-charged the gun. So here it makes more sense as an instruction for re-loading after firing ... I am happy with that ..!

The second, which doesn't hold as much water for me, is that it was a WW1 order to push an aircraft into a new position tail first. Two men to lift the tail, and six men to push against the wings, three men per wing.

[Scurs]

Clive..............probably reference to 2 AB's to do the work and 6 Killicks to supervise! :D

Manhandling un-inflated 20 man inflatable liferaft along Burma Way of Type 15 Frigate................"It's got stuck". Killick in charge, "Two- Six Lift"..........Hiiiiissssssssssssssssssssss!! Everybody down! No longer un-inflated! True story! :D:D

Little h............correct my friend, "Micky Duck's" it was! :D

[Ednamay]

Thanks for all these replies, both serious and giggle-worthy! I am trying to remember any more of Dad's funnies, such as "Give way, there below!" but the words don't always run.

What about those that you all use, if printable! Home and away.

Edna

[steve roberts]

Another one more in American use is "Down Ladder" usualy shouted by an officer needing room to move in a hurry.We just used to shout "Make a Hole" in a loud authoritative voice,that usually did the trick!:D
Regards Steve.

[spruso]

One of my father's favourites from his WW2 Navy days that has passed down at least two generations was,

"Sailors farewell - Goodbye and bugger ya!" (Another word was often substituted for "bugger"!):D:D:D

Cheers
Bruce

[Scurs]

Steve..............like................"GANGWAY............before I carve a Basta£$d"...........none of this "excuse me" business!:D

You wanted to throw something down a hatch............"BELOW" you yelled, a split second before casting object!

Yep..........you learnt to move fast!

Edna..........."Scrub it" (scrub round it)..........never mind, forget it!
"belay that"...........disregard my last words
"Sitrep"................situation report...what's going on?
"laughing gear".......lips

and my wife has been taught to use the 24 hour clock and Phonetic Alphabet.

[oldsalt]

Sailor at gash shute, "tinkle, tinkle little spoon, knife & fork will follow soon".

[whalerman]

..........Edna, tell you what, can't speak for everyone, but old sayings and terms die hard! I left the RN in 1968, but even now, unintentional discarding of something, provokes the cynical:-

"...tinkle, tinkle, little spoon.......", often uttered when an unnoticed eating utensil splashed down the gash shute together with the washing up water!

As we have ladies present, I will not comment on other terms I still use! :D:D
Many moons ago, in a public cinema, my wife disowned me for shouting in a loud voice, "GOOD OLD FRED", when the name "Fred Quimby" appeared on screen!! Those of us who served, will doubtless recall why! :rolleyes:

In Drake Barracks Cinema when freds name came up the shout was.
AHOY FRED, F*** FRED, AFTER YOU WITH FRED.

[Ednamay]

Lots to laugh at, thanks, a few to scratch my head and ponder!!!

Thanks again!!

Edna

[Scurs]

Whalerman...........in "my days"...........for "Ahoy Fred", read "Good Old Fred"...........otherwise the same! :D

[Ednamay]

My mum didn't approve of the cinema, so I have only just realised that Fred Quimby = Tom and Jerry!! Something lacking in my education1

Edna

[steve roberts]

Hi Edna.Here is another one to ponder over.The term "Burma Road" or "Burma way" has already been mentioned.It is the main passage below deck from forward to aft,in which (In most cases) it is possible to walk the length of the ship without climbing up and down ladders.I take it the term is a slightly miss-placed reference to the infamous Burma Railway that so many POW's worked on.How it got it's name on board ship,I would be interested to know.
As an interesting after thought to this.On a large Passenger ship,the crew passage way,which would be below the decks used by passengers was refered to as "Scotland Road" God alone knows why!!
Regards Steve.

[harry.gibbon]

Steve,
Re Scotland Road... this in geographical terms is a large longish main thoroughfare in the City of Liverpool, affectionately known locally as Scottie Road....

Re your ref to it being used on large passenger ships here is a link which bears witness to same:-

http://titanic-theshipmagnificent.com/synopsis/chapter34-10/

Little h

[steve roberts]

Hi Little h.I had read of it in Walter Lord's book "A Night To Remember" re-Titanic,but was suprised to find it still in use on modern liners.
Many Regards Steve.

[harry.gibbon]

Now then folks this one comes with a terminology warning for Ednamay!

During my time at Ganges one of the instructors had the habit of using the saying ... "I couldn't give a fish's t.t" ... in response and with complete disregard to, any excuse whatsoever in any situation.

Although I have over the years used it myself, I have never heard anybody else use it, except members of our mess of sparkers and buntins who I happened upon thereafter.

Anybody heard of it in use elsewhere?

Little h

[Ednamay]

Little h - Can't say I had ever heard it but I can quite believe it came from a Ganges instructor!!!

Edna

[Mac Hendry]

Now then folks this one comes with a terminology warning for Ednamay!

During my time at Ganges one of the instructors had the habit of using the saying ... "I couldn't give a fish's t.t" ... in response and with complete disregard to, any excuse whatsoever in any situation.

Although I have over the years used it myself, I have never heard anybody else use it, except members of our mess of sparkers and buntins who I happened upon thereafter.

Anybody heard of it in use elsewhere?

Little h

Seamen in the Blake often said "as much use as nipples on a fish", and I must admit I still use the saying in times of despair.

[alanandbren]

Now then folks this one comes with a terminology warning for Ednamay!

During my time at Ganges one of the instructors had the habit of using the saying ... "I couldn't give a fish's t.t" ... in response and with complete disregard to, any excuse whatsoever in any situation.

Although I have over the years used it myself, I have never heard anybody else use it, except members of our mess of sparkers and buntins who I happened upon thereafter.

Anybody heard of it in use elsewhere?

Little h

I use the saying very regular,only I say fishes left tit. Bad habits die hard.

[Scurs]

I use the saying very regular,only I say fishes left tit. Bad habits die hard.

............or bad habits don't die! :D:D

You will recall (I expect) certain well thumbed literary masterpieces that went under the collective term of "Egyptian AFO's", and how in said masterpieces the translation into English often left a bit to be desired?
Onboard CEYLON, an oft uses term to register surprise was " 'uck me she crid as he threwed her on the soda", shortened to "Uck me she Crid"................sigh.........I confess to still use the phrase 52 years hence! :D:D

[harry.gibbon]

alanandbren & Mac Hendry;

Aaaah good - that's all right then!!!! good to know the saying is still in circulation... now though lads from whom or whence did you learn it??

Scurs;

It was never intended that one memorised passages from the AFO's to which you refer:( :eek:
(PM on its way to you by the way)
Little h

[whomesir]

Now then folks this one comes with a terminology warning for Ednamay!

During my time at Ganges one of the instructors had the habit of using the saying ... "I couldn't give a fish's t.t" ... in response and with complete disregard to, any excuse whatsoever in any situation.

Although I have over the years used it myself, I have never heard anybody else use it, except members of our mess of sparkers and buntins who I happened upon thereafter.

Anybody heard of it in use elsewhere?

Little h

Little h.......I think this particular expression is peculiar to sparkers and buntins......my other half took me to taska few times for using it - plus a few others that do not bear repeating.

[astraltrader]

I am sorry one and all but this thread has now fallen way short of the standards we both require and expect for inclusion into the main part of the forum.

In view of this I have no choice but to move the whole thread to shore leave.

Personally speaking I think this is a great shame because naval sayings could and should have provided the basis for a really good thread without having to descend into unacceptable levels of both language and undefined slang.

I do appreciate that some naval sayings did cross the line in terms of language but there are more than enough other examples that could and should have been used instead.

Should there be more suitable examples posted here in the future then I or one of the other moderators would be happy to remove a few of the earlier posts and move it back to "Everything Else."

Finally in case anybody wrongly thinks that I am just trying to impose my own agenda here my attention was drawn to the thread as a result of complaints I have received.

[RonHowell]

Do you remember this one, and I still use often when I dont like a particular dish, "Just like Mother used to Ditch".

Ron

[Ednamay]

Another saying my father used was 'Down the hatch', but it was used in several types of situation so - anyone know the origin?

Edna

[Scurs]

Edna............far as I can make out from Google.........."Down the hatch" is a drinking toast, first used by seamen around turn of the century, referring to cargo lowered into the hold (presumably thus being profits to look forward to?).

[peterf09]

..........Edna, tell you what, can't speak for everyone, but old sayings and terms die hard! I left the RN in 1968, but even now, unintentional discarding of something, provokes the cynical:-

"...tinkle, tinkle, little spoon.......", often uttered when an unnoticed eating utensil splashed down the gash shute together with the washing up water!

As we have ladies present, I will not comment on other terms I still use! :D:D
Many moons ago, in a public cinema, my wife disowned me for shouting in a loud voice, "GOOD OLD FRED", when the name "Fred Quimby" appeared on screen!! Those of us who served, will doubtless recall why! :rolleyes:peterf09 I remember those words GOOD OLD FRED on the Tom and Jerry films ,my grandaughter bought me some TOM AND JERRY Video's for Christmas and when I play them I shout GOOD OLD FRED even when I am on my own

[Dave Hutson]

you forgot to finish it Scurs ..... tinkle, tinkle little spoon, knife and fork will follow soon. Remember well whenever we went ashore for "big eats" always acquired the eating irons cos they was free and jack dusty charged for replacements. Funny thing was a lot of the eating irons in Gib and Malta eating houses had little arrows on them :confused::confused: what.

Dave H

[steve roberts]

Hi Scurs.Fancy referring to it as a "Drinking Toast" Wardroom sir! and get them in.
My recollection of the term was of a purely practical nature.When ordering articles from civilian suppliers.The term was used literally.It had to fit "Down the Hatch".Meaning not so big as to have to be broken down,or to be supplied in kit form to be assembled below decks.
Regards Steve.

[oldsalt]

" I careth not for thy predicament, Jack , for I am inboard" answer to a dripping matelot.

[Dave Hutson]

Knew another version of that one Keith .... but not for a lady's [Edna] ears.

How about ""Dhoby, dhoby, dhoby, never go ashore - ever have to muster at the Sickbay door"" [Surprised our resident Doc never came up with that one]

Dave H

[steve roberts]

Hi Dave H. Would not dare affront poor Edna's ears with what the sickbay version of that was!!!:D Would be banished to the naughty boys room for ever!
Regards Steve.

[TACKLINE]

Act green,keep clean,and roll on tot time. Good advice for joining barracks.

[Ednamay]

Thanks all, and what about dhobi day, banyan day, and make and mend? !!

Edna

[steve roberts]

Hi Edna.Easy peasy to answer.
1.) Dhobi a Hindi word,literally meaning wash.There fore Washing Day.
2.) Banyan a Malay word for feast,usually used to mean a trip ashore in a boat to some nice beach,stacks of beer and a barbi!(ties in with #3)
3.) Make and mend. Means literally what it says.Time given over to make and mend clothes.Now used to mean an afternoon off!
Many Regards Steve.

[emason]

My recollection of the term was of a purely practical nature.When ordering articles from civilian suppliers.The term was used literally.It had to fit "Down the Hatch".Meaning not so big as to have to be broken down,or to be supplied in kit form to be assembled below decks.


This sounds about right Steve, because I understood "down the hatch" to mean to drink your tot "down in one" i.e one gulp.

Too many "down the hatches" and you become "three sheets to the wind". Anyone know the original meaning of this?

[qprdave]

sheets are ropes (or occasionally, chains). These are fixed to the lower corners of sails, to hold them in place. If three sheets are loose and blowing about in the wind then the sails will flap and the boat will lurch about like a drunken sailor.

qprdave

[emason]

sheets are ropes (or occasionally, chains). These are fixed to the lower corners of sails, to hold them in place. If three sheets are loose and blowing about in the wind then the sails will flap and the boat will lurch about like a drunken sailor.

qprdave

Thank you Dave

[Ednamay]

I can remember 'down the hatch' for a 'short' - down in one, but also as a check - will it go down our long and narrow stairs?

We used to walk a lot, a short walk was described as 'a quick row towards the horizon' and a longer walk as 'a good sail over the horizon' - any comments??

Edna

[TACKLINE]

Onward Christian soldiers - Not too fast in front.

[steve roberts]

UP SPIRITS Stand Fast the Holy Ghost
Regards Steve.

[steve roberts]

We had a Master at arms on the Forth,who's favorite saying was to any defaulter."Not on my War Canoe Lad".
RegardS Steve.

[Ednamay]

Remembering visits to my mother's relatives, (my father didn't enjoy either travelling - after the navy!) or family get-togethers, 'Must show the flag, I suppose!'

Also, not 'looks like the back end of a bus' but 'just like the stern of an aircraft carrier!' - mainly to annoy my brother!!

Edna

[slingerspark]

I often use the expression "CALIANTI " or some such spelling, when asked what it meant,my reply was something that has gone up sticks , has anybody else heard of this yrs slinger

[barracuda]

There is a Spanish word "caliente" which can mean "hot" but can also mean "urgent."

Peter

[Ednamay]

When a household job needed more than one pair of hands - or when my father needed someone to hold / keep steady something for one of his gadgets, the cry would go up "All hands on deck" and my brother and I used to go and hold whatever it was - when he had finished, it was "All hands to dance and skylark". which meant a game of garden cricket!

Edna

[Ednamay]

And what about 'darken ship' for 'put up the blackout curtain'! Edna

[deejay]

Shot away presumably meaning staggering as a ship with mast shot away would lose steering

I haven't found these on the site so here goes;

"Traditional Royal Navy Toasts - In the early days, up until about 1900, the officers also received rum. In the Ward Room of the Officers Quarters, the daily dinner ritual (at noon) was to toast the reigning monarch, which was then followed by the toast of the day. This ritual is still in effect. The toasts are:

Monday: Our ships at sea.
Tuesday: Our men.
Wednesday: Ourselves.
Thursday: A bloody war and quick promotion.
Friday: A willing soul and sea room.
Saturday: Sweethearts and wives, may they never meet.
Sunday: Absent friends and those at sea."

I believe the Sunday toast is used frequently

http://www.pussers.com/rum/folklore

[Ednamay]

Thanks, deejay, very welcome contribution.

I also believe the Sunday toast is used frequently; however, probably the best known is Saturday, Sweethearts and wives, may they never meet.!!!!

Edna

[Ednamay]

Thinking of jobs around the house, one of my father's regulars was 'time to coal ship', when he took the coal scuttle to fill it from the coal bunker.

Also, my brother used to lie in on Saturdays, but was supposed to be helping in the garden - the cry used to go up 'wakey, wakey, lash up your hammock lad, wakey, wakey lash up and stow'

We used to take a long walk on Sunday evenings and I was not a good walker,
I used to trip and bump into things and was told 'steady as you go!' or, if I was falling behind, 'Come on, gal, keep up steam!'

Great memories of my father and his quirks, I hope we can get a few more naval family quotes.

Edna

[Mitch Hinde]

How about "The definition of a volunteer is a person who did'nt understand the question".

Mitch

[Choppy Sea]

When I shout S**t, jump on the shovel.

[Ednamay]

Well, I suppose they add to the collection................

Edna

[Dave Hutson]

"Up thru the hawsepipe" has just come to mind for a Lower Decker [Junior Rating] who aspired to and made Officer.

Dave H

[slingerspark]

Not noticed this one.... cant sleep here jack (mate) town hall steps:):(

[Ednamay]

They pop up from nowhere - catch you when you're not thinking!

Edna

[whomesir]

The mists lifted - memory cogs whirred into life - one came to mind...........

"What do yer think yer on lad ? - yer Daddies yacht ?"

Usually bellowed down the ear of some daydreaming young sailor.

[Francis Stanley]

"Jesus wants me for a sunbeam, Chiefy sez he can't spare the hands."

"When I tell you to jump you jump.... JUMP!"

"who told you to come down lad?"

[clevewyn]

Not noticed this one.... cant sleep here jack (mate) town hall steps:):(

Ditto, Helensburgh station platform. Sorry Officer:o

[Ednamay]

Oh, yes, thank you! Keep them all coming!

Edna

[Fuzzbox]

Another one that springs to mind is when someone tells a story accompanied by hand mimes a listener would say at the end "hows it go again"
The story and mime would be repeated and the listener would say "Once more for Chiefs and PO's" on the grounds that the senior rates were too thick to understand the first time.
Alan

[Fuzzbox]

Another one that springs to mind is when someone tells a story accompanied by hand mimes a listener would say at the end "hows it go again"
The story and mime would be repeated and the listener would say "Once more for Chiefs and PO's" on the grounds that the senior rates were too thick to understand the first time.
Alan

The alternative reply would play on the words "Once more for Chiefs and PO's" to say "Once more for the Thieves and Crows"
Alan

[Fuzzbox]

Another one springs to mind (Iwish I hadn't switched on tonight)

THREE BADGES GOLD,FAR TOO OLD. THREE BADGES RED,MAY AS WELL BE DEAD.
Alan

[barracuda]

During the Falkland's war, the Royal Marines used the term "yomp" to mean marching over rough terrain. This was picked up by the media and the term found its way into the Oxford English Dictionary. However, I distinctly remember my sailor brother using this word to mean eating ones food. He'd say to me, "don't yomp your food so fast." Or he might say, "he's always yomping chocolate." This was long before the Falkland's war. Does anyone remember "yomp" being generally used in the RN to mean eating?

Peter

[harry.gibbon]

During the Falkland's war, the Royal Marines used the term "yomp" to mean marching over rough terrain. This was picked up by the media and the term found its way into the Oxford English Dictionary. However, I distinctly remember my sailor brother using this word to mean eating ones food. He'd say to me, "don't yomp your food so fast." Or he might say, "he's always yomping chocolate." This was long before the Falkland's war. Does anyone remember "yomp" being generally used in the RN to mean eating?

Peter


an emphatic YES to your last sentence/question Peter.

Comments like - " he yomped his way through....." meaning he scoffed the whole lot, usually a big'ish meal lets say;)

Yomp(ed), guzzle(ed), squaff(ed) all referred to eating... even the reference to getting/obtaining the nosh in the first place could promote the question "where did you RAS that from" ie where did you 'obtain' that food from!

Little h

[barracuda]

Thanks Harry. I didn't think I'd imagined his use of the word "yomp". So the Oxford English Dictionary is wrong about the word's origin. Perhaps we ought to tell them. The Marines must have twisted the word's meaning to mean marching quickly over rough terrain in the sense of "eating up the ground", if you see what I mean. The academics couldn't have checked their facts very well. Tut, tut.

Peter

[Ednamay]

It gets better and better! Keep it going, please!

Edna

[Fuzzbox]

I fully agree with the comments on the word "yomp" meaning to eat ones food and any spare that you could get your hands on. In 1960 on the ULSTER there was an AB nicknamed "YOMPY MARSHALL" because he was always hungry and it was alleged that he could eat one more tatie than a pig!Mind the PO Jack Dusty V was named Father Famine, I wonder why.
Another word used was "YAFFLE" as in "He yaffled half a pig between two slices of bread"
Alan

[wulfrun]

I was a "PONGO"? Or so the navy said.

Besides Naval sayings there are also Naval traditions, (which I suppose merits a whole new thread?) As a "PONGO" I could never get used to saluting the quaterdeck, which, on HMS Camarata was a hallway of Italian marble with a Royal Marine in full dress uniform esconsed in a small room off.

I am so glad I can still recall my Navy days with tickler and a tot of rum every day.

[Francis Stanley]

I fully agree with the comments on the word "yomp" meaning to eat ones food and any spare that you could get your hands on. In 1960 on the ULSTER there was an AB nicknamed "YOMPY MARSHALL" because he was always hungry and it was alleged that he could eat one more tatie than a pig!Mind the PO Jack Dusty V was named Father Famine, I wonder why.
Another word used was "YAFFLE" as in "He yaffled half a pig between two slices of bread"
Alan

Father Famine was usually a title reserved for the Caterer as they were so tight with the victuals, I also agree that yomp was usually a reference to eating

[Francis Stanley]

Following on from the sayings each branch actually were not called by their correct title here is a list of some I can remember I amsure there are many others:

Dabtoe - seamen
Stoker - Mechanical Engineer
Greenie - Electrician - heavy electrics
Lamp Tramp - Usually a greenie employed in domestic style tasks such as replacing lights
Pinkie - Electrician - electronics
Jack dusty - Stores
Father Famine - Caterer
Sparker or sparky - Radio comms rating
Flag waver - Comms - Flags
Bubblehead - Diver
Sickbay Tiff, Scablifter, - Medic
Food spoiler - Chef
Bonehead, crusher, Joss - all members of the ...ahem... highly esteemed Regulating branch
Flunky - Steward

[Ednamay]

Wow! I know my father was called 'Guns', fairly obvious, but 'Biff' was from his early years, boxing for his ship, and 'Pop', during the war, not only because he was the oldest of his crew but because his hair was already white!!

Edna

[Ednamay]

I have just dredged up a few more from the sandbank:

if my brother and I were arguing (not unusual), my father would say "Are you two at loggerheads again? If you're at a loose end, come and give me a hand with ............)

When my mother was 'chatting up' the neighbour, they were 'chewing the fat' - only my father was allowed to use that one!

One I can't fit is 'going a blinder' - is it navy, or is it from elsewhere?

Edna

[Francis Stanley]

Just come from the Scranbag thread remembering food being called Scran and when in refit on a cold ship food for duty watch being delivered instead of meals on wheels being refered to as Scran in a Van, or Muck on a truck!

[Ednamay]

Hey, that reminds me; on a busy day with no time to cook, if the larder was full - lots of choice - it would be a banyan day; on the other hand, end of the week, larder rather low - that was a scran day!

Edna

[harry.gibbon]

The ubiquitious 'Tea Boat' with it's custodians and practitioners being of equal importance.:)

Little h

Note; I took the term and the practice of having one into my place(s) of work in civvy street and it ran almost continuously for 22years.

[harry.gibbon]

The 'oggie run' in Guzz, a 'duty' done by a member of the duty watch on board, (or indeed any messdeck member who hadn't gone ashore) where permission was given to leave the ship for the 'express purpose' of purchasing/obtaining all oggies ordered on the prepared/shopping list.

To complete the mission one would get permission to go outside the dockyard gates, across the road to order/buy the oggies, nip into the pub for a pint, return through the gates, stop at the vending machines buy copius cartons of milk, then wend one's way back to the ship - obviously with the intention of delivering the oggies 'still piping hot;))

... and all without having cleaned into No1's

Little h

[Ednamay]

Sounds like a good wheeze!

Edna

I'm glad this is a 'fun run' and no-one is 'making heavy weather' of it!!

[Dave Hutson]

It was Edna,

However Harry , it was good that it was Ron Dewdney's at Albert Gate, cos Ivor Dewdney's pasties were cr*p. Have never been able to understand why they could not sing from the same hymnsheet.

And yes - Ron Dewdney's is still there as is the Avondale.

Dave H

[Big Al]

Tot Time,
Up Spirits, " Stand Fast the Holy Ghost"

[Scurs]

Dinner Time (midday meal)......."Hands to Dinner, RP's to Lunch"

Dinner (evening meal for Officers)....."Pigs to the trough".

RP = Radar Plot ratings

[chris westwood]

in the 1950s when cigarettes were advertised on tv. Senior ssrvice ran a series of commercials about naval sayings. The only one I can remember was 'there'll be the devil to pay".

[Francis Stanley]

[QUOTE=Scurs;124460]Dinner Time (midday meal)......."Hands to Dinner, RP's to Lunch"


"Hands to dinner"
"Starboard 30"

[Ednamay]

in the 1950s when cigarettes were advertised on tv. Senior ssrvice ran a series of commercials about naval sayings. The only one I can remember was 'there'll be the devil to pay".

Am I right in thinking that 'the devil' was the longest / lowest seam in a wooden-wall, thus the most difficult to caulk?

Edna

[Francis Stanley]

Edna
I think you are correct, although I was led to believe it was the outer seam between the deck and out board side and was difficult to caulk, also being between the devil and the deep blue sea, arising from the reasoning that there was nothing but oggin after the Devil. If that is wrong I am sure we will be corrected shortly :)

regards
Stan

[Ednamay]

Even my son has caught it - catching up with lots of jobs over the hot period, said he was exhausted and went to 'flake out'. Originally something to do with the anchor/chain? Come on, lads, thinking caps on!!

Edna

[Ednamay]

These odd thoughts pop up from time to time; I can remember my father saying of one mate who popped in to see us on his way to the bus stop (and called in to use our loo), 'he's already three sheets in the wind, he'll be really under the weather in the morning' ....... speak for themselves, those two, don't they?

Edna

[astraltrader]

These odd thoughts pop up from time to time; I can remember my father saying of one mate who popped in to see us on his way to the bus stop (and called in to use our loo), 'he's already three sheets in the wind, he'll be really under the weather in the morning' ....... speak for themselves, those two, don't they?

Edna

Definitely Edna along with feeling pooped!!

[although I think it might have been three sheets to the wind??] :confused:

[marjack126]

Edna
I think you are correct, although I was led to believe it was the outer seam between the deck and out board side and was difficult to caulk, also being between the devil and the deep blue sea, arising from the reasoning that there was nothing but oggin after the Devil. If that is wrong I am sure we will be corrected shortly :)

regards
Stan

Stan et al

Just found this at Salty Sayings (http://www.julianstockwin.com/Salty%20Sayings.htm#Devil_and_Deep_Blue_Sea)

In the eighteenth century, the “devil” was the longest seam of the ship, running from the bow to the stern. When at sea, the “devil” had to be caulked as part of routine maintenance – and the sailor who had the task of doing so was swung out precariously in a bosun’s chair over the sea.

So you appear to be right with your assumption Stan ;)

[Francis Stanley]

Mart
Thanks for the V interesting link, I had not seen that before :)

[John O'Callaghan]

Edna re your post 100. 'flake out' I believe the term comes from the laying out of a line on deck in a series of long lays so as to ensure it does not tangle as it is fed out over the side such as in laying an anchor or rigging a towing hawser.The line is flat on a clear section of deck or working area and normally is allowed to run out under its own tension so it is important that tangles do not occur as sailors cannnot intervene owing to the load and the danger involved.If memory serves the proper term is 'Fake Out' but it is often corrupted to 'Flake'. Jack has taken the rope lying on the deck as a description for lying down or resting or in extreme cases unconscious.
Cheers John O'C.

[Ednamay]

Thanks very much lads, always good to get contributions and explanations.

I wasn't aware of how many quotes my father had, I will try to bring them up as they come along.

Edna

[Dave Hutson]

Hi Edna,

Watching a programme on the Indian Railways last night I was reminded of another one "BRAHMA" - haven't heard it for years but it was in common use in the 50's/60's for something big, or misused for something good.

i.e. Good night out - That run ashore last night as a brahma.
Big storm - That wave was a brahma.

Not sure whether the origin was Naval or Army because the word came from the Indian River "Brahmaputra" being the biggest river in Indian which also carries the most water during the Monsoons.

Going slightly off thread [Sorry Moderators] Watching that programme last night showed a section of track washed away by the floods. Did they take six months talking about it and another two years replacing it - no - out came the line gangs carrying big rocks - filled the breach, laid the track, ran an Engine over it and pronounced it fit for purpose. Time taken - just four days. Perhaps we could learn from them.

Dave H

[Ednamay]

Thanks Dave
I can remember one of our neighbours who was always claiming (about politicians!) "they haven't got a clue"; I believe this one has something to do with clews? Sails? Any takers?

Edna

[alanandbren]

A few I remember from the 50s and 60s, Egyptian PT, have a nap. or Inspect behind the eyelids, which was the same. Egyptian AFO = adult reading. Scratcher was your bunk,but in boats 2nd coxn. S**t in it was to keep quiet.
many more will come to mind soon
Alan.

[Ednamay]

Thanks, Alan, keep 'em coming!!!
Edna

[astraltrader]

Blimey! I just came across this old thread again which contains some really fascinating words and phrases. :)

[Sailor return]

Hi, all.
I'm a newcomer to the site and I'm surprised no one has mentioned the book 'Jackspeak', by Surgeon Commander Rick Jolly. A veritable compendium of, well, jackspeak! Available on amazon!
Keith M :confused:

[Sailor return]

Hi Edna,
i.e. Good night out - That run ashore last night as a brahma.
Big storm - That wave was a brahma.
Not sure whether the origin was Naval or Army because the word came from the Indian River "Brahmaputra" being the biggest river in Indian which also carries the most water during the Monsoons.
Dave H
The spelling is Bramah. After an engineer, Joseph Bramah of the late 18c who manufactured virtually unpickable locks. The word is used to denote summat brilliant, enjoyable , of the best, or stupendous
Keith M

[harry.gibbon]

The spelling is Bramah. After an engineer, Joseph Bramah of the late 18c who manufactured virtually unpickable locks. The word is used to denote summat brilliant, enjoyable , of the best, or stupendous
Keith M

Let the jury be out on this one..
Firstly it isn't a Naval Saying.
Secondly (and most importantly:)) it is used frequently throughout Scotland with a spelling of 'brammer', still with the meaning that something is good or exceptional. It was certainly used in NE Scotland when I was growing up and is still in use today.

(It is possibly not always/often used in connection with some of the sporting prowess of some of our teams:D:D:D although Curling would be an exception.)

But is thought to be derived from the Hindu God Brahma

Little h

[astraltrader]

I agree with the probable Hindu origination of the name Harry, although I am not sure that the useage of the word is Scottish as most people I have known in my life who have used this expression have been Londoners!!

Anyway when this thread first appeared in the forum I was sure that we already had a thread of naval sayings but was unable to find it.
Lo and behold what should I stumble across by pure accident earlier - the thread I was looking for. Probably the reason why I could not find it was its rather strange title - "Worse things happen at sea!"

I enclose a link to it below. After another day or so I will merge them both. If you havent yet seen it then give it a good look as there are many interesting sayings and threads included!

http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showthread.php?t=893

.

[harry.gibbon]

I agree with the probable Hindu origination of the name Harry, although I am not sure that the useage of the word is Scottish as most people I have known in my life who have used this expression have been Londoners!!

Anyway when this thread first appeared in the forum I was sure that we already had a thread of naval sayings but was unable to find it.
Lo and behold what should I stumble across by pure accident earlier - the thread I was looking for. Probably the reason why I could not find it was its rather strange title - "Worse things happen at sea!"

I enclose a link to it below. After another day or so I will merge them both. If you havent yet seen it then give it a good look as there are many interesting sayings and threads included!

http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showthread.php?t=893

.

Yes indeed Terry, I had a peruse/perusal of some posts on that thread included in your link around the time I posted on this one.

Q. Are they ripe for merging do you think?

Little h

[Trafalgartwin]

Blimey! I just came across this old thread again which contains some really fascinating words and phrases. :)

And than you for your huge contribution to it...all those P O'B quotes! :)

Apologies if these have been mentioned and I missed them:

'Hit the Deck' has to be Naval...

And surely (Time to) 'turn in' is, too?

[Ednamay]

I also have just today discovered 'Worse things happen at sea' - yes, words and sayings that have crept into everyday life, sometimes with an 'adaptation' of meaning but still fun to follow up! Thanks a Bunch (or, sometimes, thanks a Bundle!!)

Edna

[Gone Asiatic]

An old salt to a new sailor aboard ship: "I`ve flushed more sea water than you`ve steamed over!" to which the more feisty new sailor would reply "Are you that full of shhite?"

[Dreadnought]

.... I enclose a link to it below. After another day or so I will merge them both. If you havent yet seen it then give it a good look as there are many interesting sayings and threads included!

http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showthread.php?t=893

.

Terry, when you do the merge, you may also want to include this thread as well:

http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showthread.php?t=943

[astraltrader]

Thanks Clive for the extra one!! ;)

Have now merged them all into one super thread for Naval sayings which I have decided to "award" an Everything Else status along with post-count, rather than keep it in shore leave.

After all it is of great interest from a naval history and etymological point of view!!

[John O'Callaghan]

ETYMOLOGICAL????? I can't even think it!!!!
Cheers John O'C.:confused::confused::confused::confused:

[Francis Stanley]

A phrase that I was not familiar with, came from a US Navy buddy I had.
" A ship with a bone in her teeth"

Meaning full speed ahead, because of the bow wave and resulting foam.

[Ednamay]

Etymo watsit? yes. I s'pose so!

But I love the ship with a bone ........... lovely picture!!!

Edna

[alanandbren]

Another great naval saying " the buzz" this was the word every matelot was interested in, in other words, the rumour. In my time I think most of them started in the wardroom pantry,

[Vegaskip]

Hows about........ The following V.I.P.'s will arrive on board this afternoon;
General Payment
his Secretary, Miss Musters'
The German Ambassador Hans TooTea,
and their chauffeur Naffi Van Drive.

"Up spirits, stand fast the holy ghost"

[Scurs]

Alanandbren...........or by dockyard maties in this country, or Jenny's Side Party in Hong Kong............surprisingly such buzzes were usually accurate.

Jim..............like it, must be true it is in Daily Orders! :D

Always liked the term "Chuck up".........could mean to cheer (Chucking up Party), or to "Call for Bill and Bert" (Be sick...Chuck up), or to describe someone who's personal hygiene left a bit to be desired "Chucks up".
During Small Ship Cup soccer matches, played under floodlights at TERROR, if the Ref gave a decision we disagreed with,
someone would call, "Give the Ref a Chuck Up"............and we would all chant in unison, "The Ref Chucks Up"! Great days.

[Derek Dicker]

How about.

"Jesus wants me for a sunbeam" but the buffer cant spare the hands..


Derek (Bunts)

[Ednamay]

We had new neighbours move in and the comings and goings with bits and pieces were just a little suspicious; ?? Doubtful - criminal??

Father said "I think he's sailing a bit close to the wind". Agreed??

Edna

[Francis Stanley]

When you wanted to get rid of some thing you could "Deep six" it or use a Spur lash on it.

[Scurs]

...........or give it a "Float Test", Francis! :)

[Francis Stanley]

Scurs yep forgot that one.

Sewing machine Sir! - Make it sew! :D

[Scurs]

"Absentee"? "Thank you RPO, 2 sugars"

"You adrift"? "No RPO, a Seaman"


Keep 'em coming!:D

[berry]

g'day all - does anyone remember one of my favourites "so-and -so has more time off than Rip Van Winkle's night-light".
regards
Sid

[Ednamay]

Although my brother eventually became an electrical artificer, as a young teenager his fingers were all thumbs; he was making a knot display board for a scout badge test and my father's comment was, "You're making heavy weather of that, lad" and sketched a layout for him.

Edna

[Ednamay]

I've accidentally uncovered a different one:-
Bamboozle meant to deceive a passing vessel as to your ship's origin or nationality by flying an ensign other than your own - a common practice by pirates.
Is it ever in use nowadays? ..... the word or the practice?
Edna