HMS Trinidad

[Kiwicruiser]

Great site! I'd be delighted to receive any information about HMS Trinidad, my father's Arctic convoy (PQ13) cruiser. She had a short, but memorable, duty. She torpedoed herself, got patched up in Murmansk, got hit by a JU88 bomber and was then scuttled.

[The Sailor]

I noted you joining this morning Kiwi. It's good to get someone from New Zealand. Welcome to this forum.
I hope that you will join in general discussion with us.
Someone will help you with the information on Trinidad soon.
Let us have your first name when you post mate.
Graeme

[Kiwicruiser]

Thanks, Graeme. There's some interesting stuff in the forums and no doubt I'll feel inclined to contribute from time to time, even if the time zones are not always conducive!
Ian

[Kiwicruiser]

Sad, but true, Sailor. Herk: No one talks about rugby much at the moment – we're all waiting for the next opportunity to thrash the Springboks (World Cup winners) and the Aussies (again)! I have no doubt the friendly rivalry between the Kiwis and Aussies was just as evident on some the Royal Navy ships during the war, as I understand many of both nationalities served on them. Which is part of why I've joined up here – I'd love to find out how many of them were on board ships such as my dad's Trinidad. I know he used to look up old mates from the Trinidad. By the way, there's a local site here in New Zealand for Russian convoy veterans – www.russianconvoyclub.org.nz. Worth a look and maybe a link from your UK site.

[The Sailor]

I know that Herk and I are two guys that are glad to have you here Ian.
That is a great site that you enclosed. Would you like to move that over to the Arctic convoy thread yourself with a small note about it mate?

[herakles]

I agree Sailor. That's a very good site that Ian has alerted us to. Especially interesting was the page on the purpose of the convoys and the resulting idea that Hitler thought we were going to invade Norway. Clearly, as I see it, the material value of the convoys was not hugely important but its political usefulness was as well as tying up a lot of the German navy up there that otherwise would have been prowling in the Atlantic.

Life on board ship must have been most unpleasant because of the weather. And to end up in the water almost certain death from freezing.

We've been talking a bit about the weather up there in the thread on the Archangel Expedition.

I understand your comments re the rugby too. Both NZ and Oz went very quiet after the World Cup.

[Kiwicruiser]

Thanks to you both (Sailor and Herk). Will post the NZ convoy website for others to see. I note it even has a member who was a veteran of the Stalingrad siege. Which ties in with many of your discussions – would Stalingrad have held if not for the convoys? Much of it is hypothetical, because we could only guess what Hitler might have done in different circumstances (and let's face it, his generals and admirals had no idea what he was going to do). And more interesting perhaps, is what Stalin might have done without the convoy support. Perhaps what he ended up doing anyway, to simply put more and more humans into the conflict where hand-to-hand combat (certainly in Stalingrad) became the norm and wore the Germans down.

[herakles]

A question to ponder on indeed: what would Stalin have done without getting the convoys?

He'd have answered with more than just putting more and more men into the line.

[The Sailor]

Yes Kiwi and don't forget the machine guns manned by political commissars, behind Stalin's own troops to shoot them down if they retreated.

Stalin had millions more ready to send through the mincer Herk.
Imperative that such a great man stay in power at any cost.

But the pressure Stalin put on Churchill at the conferences to do something tangable was the underlying reason for the convoys. Stalin demanded a second front as early as 1942. This was an appeasment until Normandy.

[Kiwicruiser]

Was Stalin really in any position to demand anything of Churchill? Of course the Russians needed to keep Hitler distracted, but Stalin was hardly going to throw his toys out of the cot if he didn't get what he demanded.

[herakles]

I think Stalin was in a very good position as the later conferences demonstrated.

For example, Stalin grudgingly allowed the West to have Greece after the war because Churchill expressly requested it. And got it because of the special link the two had. Mind you, Stalin demanded - and got - all the countries to the north of Greece.

So when the Greek Civil War broke out, Stalin didn't lift a finger to help the Communists there.

[herakles]

Ah! A great Kiwi has died. Edmund Hilary. It's our loss. What a fine man and a great New Zealander.

[The Sailor]

Yes Herk, I see it on the news items here. I actually met him as a child at Perth airport.
RIP Sir Edmund.

[romft1945]

Poor New Zealand chap only wanted to know about his dads ship Hms Trinidad was a light cruiser it was lost on 15th may 1942 herwith a photo if it comes out Rom

[tim lewin]

You should get hold of Alan Pearce's book "The ship that torpedoed herself", he served aboard and thus this is an eye-witness account. Well written and a first class read. Try bookfinder on the internet..
tim

[Batstiger]

A couple more pictures.

[Kiwicruiser]

Thanks for the help, folks. In fact, the book "The Ship that Torpedoed Herself" was by FRANK Pearce (small point, but might help if anyone is looking for a copy). I tracked mine down on the net at an antiquarian bookshop in Connecticut. Any yes, a damned good read. Another interesting read was from a crewman who contributed to the BBC's War Stories, also on the web. There's some good stuff there.

[astraltrader]

Ian - I have recently read a superb book about tha Arctic Convoys that includes a lot of information about HMS Trinidad including a wealth of information about her convoy support duties, her engagement with enemy destroyers, how she was struck by her own torpedo, a lot about her eventful repair at Rosta and finally her subsequent sailing when she was sadly bombed and sank.
If you haven`t read this book then all I can say is it the best book I have yet read on the Arctic Convoys...
It is entitled : ARCTIC CONVOYS 1941-1945. Written by Richard Woodman.
532 pages. First published in 1994 - by John Murray Publications [Division of Hodder Books]. Subsequently published in paperback [same publishers] in 2004. Hope this proves to be of interest.

[The Sailor]

Rom, that "poor New Zealand chap" was being introduced to the forum and it's format by two of it's mods who were taking the time to do so like we did with you when you joined.
This forum isn't like the angry back biting forums filled with regulations and rigid formal protocol like you might have witnessed elsewhere. It is for the enjoyment of everyone.
Graeme ;)

[Kiwicruiser]

If you haven`t read this book then all I can say is it the best book I have yet read on the Arctic Convoys...
It is entitled : ARCTIC CONVOYS 1941-1945. Written by Richard Woodman.
532 pages. First published in 1994 - by John Murray Publications [Division of Hodder Books]. Subsequently published in paperback [same publishers] in 2004. Hope this proves to be of interest.[/QUOTE]

Many thanks astral. I do indeed have this book, on loan from an avid fan of all things nautical. You've just prompted me to get around to reading it!

[Stan.J]

I have just been checking my copy of Geoffrey Regans book of Naval Blunders.
Especially the tale of the Trinidad torpeding herself.
Another article also in the book was, I thought, Quite unusual..It refers to the Chilean Ironclad "Huascar", when it tried to torpedo the corvette "Abtao" in 1879.. The "Huascar"`s, Commander. Admiral Grau, closed to within 200 yards of the unsuspecting "Abtao" and fired the torpedo. It travelled straight for about 100 yards before suddenly turning to port, making a wide semi-circle and returning straight back toward the "Huascar". Lieutenant Diaz Canseco, alive to the danger, leapt overboard, swam toward the torpedo and forced it to change direction with his hands. Admiral Grau was so disgusted with the new weapon- for it was the first time he had ever fired a torpedo- that he took his remaining supply and buried them in a cemetery.

The mind boggles ???????

[herakles]

Stan,

That story is so incredible that it's hard to believe!

Still, fact is stranger than fiction as they say!

[Stan.J]

Herakles, I promise you, I havent had my tot today. I thought that it was improbable, but there you go! "Its in the Book"

[Stan.J]

Checking up on the Huascar. It was not Chilian .It was a Peruvian Ironclad, and it was the war against Chile. It had become the Peruvian main fighting force after the Ironclad Independance was lost in action. The Huascar was:- 2030 tons...dimension 190ftx35ftx18ft.
single screw,single expansion. four boilers 1650hp.
Armament. two 10in.two 40pdr..one 20pdr.
Armour..Belt 4.5-2". turret 8-5.5" deck 2". conning tower 3".
Speed 12.3 knots.
Complement..170.

It had Coles turrets and unique tripod masts which cut down on the amount of rigging.

[herakles]

The Peruvians had a navy?

[The Sailor]

Hahahahah! You're a crack up Stan. Go and pour that tot.

[Kiwicruiser]

That's a great story, especially the bit about redirecting the torpedo with his hands! The Trinidad's torpedo mishap (where it veered around and struck the Trinidad itself) was finally believed to be the result of a faulty gyro. Previously it was thought it could have been the freezing water somehow causing a fault (though it doesn't seem to have affected the hundreds of other torpedoes no doubt fired in the Arctic convoys), or the torpedo hitting the wake of one of the two German destroyers which were the ultimate target. Some of our mechanically minded colleagues might have a valid explanation.

[astraltrader]

Apparently a senior officer who was on duty high in the ship`s forebridge at the air defence control position afterwards stated that it was down to HMS Trinidad`s own shells landing just ahead of the torpedo`s track - which must have toppled the gyro and reversed its course...

[markrogers04]

hi my name is mark rogers my father served on hms trinadad the ship that topedoed itsself during ww2 my fathers name was gerard or gerry rogers he was a stoker on board her till she was scuttled if anybody has any photos of the crew or the ship i would be most grateful as my dad did not talk about the war im interested in any info that anybody could give me many thanks

[historydavid]

Hello Mark and welcome aboard.

I don't have any pics, but I am sure someone here will be able to help.

I can tell you that 31 men were lost when TRINIDAD was torpedoed on 29/03/1942 and a further 70 when she was lost on 14/05/1942.

[astraltrader]

Welcome to the forum Mark.
A couple of pictures of Trinidad...

[astraltrader]

Might have been better if I had included the pictures!

[markrogers04]

hi there my name is mark and my father was cheif stoker on trinidad his name was gerry rogers and he served on her till she was scuttled he survived the war but was badly affected by it he was one of the lucky ones or was he thanks for welcoming me to the forum and some picturs of the ship many thanks to everyone

[CYLLA]

On reading the history of H.M.S TRINIDAD,i am trying to find more of the time she was hit ,by one of her torpedoes,i have searched the Internet,for any extra information.
In the book i am reading ,there is only a little sentence about the incident.

On looking up on the net ,i found this as there best excuse,....which i find difficult to take in.


{The TRINIDAD was hit by one of her own torpedoes which ran full circle owing to a defect in the gyro mechanism probably caused by the extreme cold but she reached Kola Inlet under her own steam accompanied by tugs and the two destroyers ECLIPSE and FURY. Both the TRINIDAD and the ECLIPSE were damaged during this encounter.}

There must have been other ships during that time ,which had there torpedoes "at stand by",for long time in that severe weather, failing to hit there target.
So i am asking ,would it have been a normal problem.
Evan a aircraft dropping a torpedo,i would say many of them can't have done there job,after being up in the freezing cold air for a long time .


I wonder if at any time ,a ship was doing a shore bombardment ,and hit the cliffs ,and the "bricks"bounced back towards the ship,... a bit hard for the shore spotter to explain i bet.

[Tiornu]

It is understood that several subs were lost to circling torpedoes, though the frequency with which subs went down with all hands makes it impossible to pin down the specifics. Perhaps the best-known incident of this sort was the loss of USS Tang; some of her crew did survive. (Of course, the Germans also lost a sub to a malfunctioning toilet, but that's another story.) During the Battle of Santa Cruz, the destroyer Porter was sunk by a torpedo initially attributed to a Japanese sub attack, but it is now generally viewed to have resulted when an American torpedo plane crashed and released its torpedo which proceeded on a circling course until it found something to hit.
No ship involved in shore bombardment was hit by debris from its own shellfire. At least, I haven't heard about it. Stuff just doesn't usually fly that far.

[CYLLA]

The only story i have with torpedoes,was when a sub [unable to name it] 1974... many years ago, we were doing trials in the med ,just off GIB .
And for a couple of days every thing was going great,we were all getting the hang of recovering them ,first the gemmie went and put a rope around it ,and brought it along side [ARLINGHAM]then it was pulled up the stern ,through the recovery tunnel.

Then next-ed to the last day ..whoops we lost one , it went straight to the bottom,as all the rest floated after it had gone the distance.
So we had to stay out longer that day ,there was a torpedo recovery vessel with us as well, who had better gear on board to find um...but he could not find it that day .
That some special gear was flown out from UK .

And we did find it after a while ,when they were in the water ,they faced nose up.so it must have got water logged.


cylla

[tim lewin]

There is a very good book called the Ship the torpedoed herself which details the entire story of the Trinidad, how she was docked at Murmansk, the struggle to get new steel plates out to her and the life of the ships company ashore during that extremely difficult period of history. I think it is by Frank Pearce who was there, I will try to find it and post the actual details. It is well wrtiien and well worth a read, too often these historical accounts are written second-hand but this really takes you there. Frank also wrote "Last Call for HMS Edinburgh" as well which of course was there at the same time.
tim

[Kiwicruiser]

There were many reasons originally attributed to the Trinidad's mishap – cold conditions, faulty gyro, and even shells falling that diverted the torpedo path. It was officially found to be a faulty gyro. I've just recently chatted to one of her crew, who says everyone thought it was a torpedo from one of the German destroyers it was engaging at the time – Z24, Z25 and Z26. However, after the Trinidad limped into Murmansk, someone found a piece of the torpedo that was clearly 'one of our own'. The man I saw – a New Zealander – was also on the Broke when it smashed through into Algiers to land American troops. Her fellow destroyer, the Malcolm, was badly damaged and did not make it into the harbour.

[ap1]

The Peruvians had a navy?

Reference to the vessel Huascar has been made in posts #21 to #26.

I've just posted a paper on her entitled "The Ironclad Huascar" in 'All other Naval Ships' forum.

This was indeed a very interesting ship; and still is, as she is preserved in Chile to this day.

She had salt water boilers, normal at the time. They had to be blown down very frequently to keep the salinity (and thus priming) under control.