HMNZS Achilles and HMNZS Leander Movements?

[BobW]

Hi everyone,
I am new to this forum, this being my first post. I am an amateur naval historian whose main interest is WWII in the Pacific from December, 1941 -February, 1943. I am trying to learn the movements of all major Allied warships in this time period. From various sources I have most of the day by day movements of HMNZS Achilles and HMNZS Leander in this time period but there are still some gaps that I need to fill. Does anyone have their movements from their Deck Logs or War Diaries or other sources that could help me fill these gaps?

Does anyone know where their Deck Logs and/or War Diaries are kept so I may try to obtain a copy?

Thank you very much.
BobW

[MelQuick]

Hi BobW

Welcome to the forum. I'm sure someone will be able to answer your questions. The guys and gals here are always willing to help and they hold a wealth of information.

Mel

[Old Salt]

Hi everyone,
I am new to this forum, this being my first post. I am an amateur naval historian whose main interest is WWII in the Pacific from December, 1941 -February, 1943. I am trying to learn the movements of all major Allied warships in this time period. From various sources I have most of the day by day movements of HMNZS Achilles and HMNZS Leander in this time period but there are still some gaps that I need to fill. Does anyone have their movements from their Deck Logs or War Diaries or other sources that could help me fill these gaps?

Does anyone know where their Deck Logs and/or War Diaries are kept so I may try to obtain a copy?

Thank you very much.
BobW


Welcome to the forum Bob ! I have no idea where you might find the Deck Logs other than perhaps NZ Archives in Wellington.

An account of the RNZN in WW2 is given in the online publication :

http://www.nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/tei-WH2Navy.html

Jack Harker has written a book 'HMNZS Achilles' and also "Well Done Leander'
It is a while since I have read those two but I remember they gave a very good account of the war in both ships.

I hope these will help you.
Brian

[steve roberts]

Hi Bob.Welcome to our happy band of brothers.Your average deck log will not contain much,just daily happenings,navigation notes,and occasionally some out of the ordinary happening.Very rarely do these contain detailed movements.If you are interested in a particular ship.It's Association will be of more use,or detailed naval histories of each ship.
Many Regards Steve.

[BobW]

Hi Gentlemen,
Thank you for your replies. I do have Jack Hawker's book "HMNZS Achilles" and will try to obtain his book "Well Done Leander". I have copied USN warship movements from their Deck Logs at the National Archives near Wash DC but I much prefer working with War Diaries as they have the info I'm seeking without all the personel info about their crews, etc. that I'm not interested in. Unfortunately, many USN warships' War Diaries began on April 1, 1942, missing a very important early war time period. I will contact the New Zealand National Archives in Wellington and see if I can learn just exactly what they have in regards to these 2 fine ships.
Thanks again for your help.
Regards,
Bob

[Dick]

Bob,

Due to post-war clearouts by unthinking civil servants many RN ships logs from WW2 do not survive. Those that do are at The National Archives (Kew, West London).

None survive for HMS Leander for the period you are interested in, nor indeed for HMS Achilles but they do exist for her from March 1943 - August 1943 (ref ADM 53 116801-116806) if those are of any use to you.

Best wishes.

[BobW]

Hi Dick,
On the New Zealand National Archives website I found that they do have the movements of the HMNZS ACHILLES from Dec. 1941 - July 1945 but just to have them copy and send me her movements from Dec 1941 thru Dec. 1942 was way beyond what I would want to pay, especially since I only have "gaps" in her day by day movements that I wanted to fill. You are right about HMNZS LEANDER, they have nothing on her movements.

At the U.S National Archives near Wash DC they told me that the U.S. Army destroyed all information on the U.S. Army transport ships from WWII in 1952 because they were taking up too much space where they were being stored. It really is a shame, that's for sure.
Regards,
BobW

[Old Salt]

I have just found the following website which lists the service records of RN ships. Both Achilles and Leander are included.

http://www.naval-history.net/xGM-aContents.htm


Brian

[Batstiger]

I cannot find a thread concerning just the Leander so I will post these pictures here.

HMS Leander and biplane supermarine Walrus 1939.

The Supermarine Walrus was a british single-engine amphibious biplane reconnaissance aircraft designed by R. J. Mitchell and operated by the Fleet Air Arm. It also served with the RAF, RAAF, RNZN, RCAF & RNZAF. Perhaps surprisingly it was the first British squadron-service aircraft to incorporate a fully-retractable main undercarriage, completely enclosed crew accommodation, and having an all-metal fuselage.



The Walrus first came into NZ service in 1936 when the cruisers Leander and Achilles were equipped in that year and the next. They were operated by No. 700 Sqn of the RN FAA - but many of the Sqn members were attached from the RNZAF.


Quote "The RNZAF Walrus, K8558 of the FAA was meant to be a stored spare at Hobby's FAA depot but was instead used by the RNZAF from August 1941 to train pilots so they could deliver Short Singapores from Singapore to Fiji. This Walrus was wrecked when it did a wheels down landing on Auckland Harbour".


Bob.

[Batstiger]

Perhaps I have posted these photographs on the wrong thread as there has been no response to them whatsoever.
Am I wasting my time?

Bob.

[Old Salt]

Perhaps I have posted these photographs on the wrong thread as there has been no response to them whatsoever.
Am I wasting my time?

Bob.

Hi Bob

Not at all, a thoroughly interesting post with great photos.

I never knew much about the ship's aircraft before

Thanks very much

Brian

[mstary1]

fantastic sharp photos of a great class of ship Bob.
Thanks very much.

[Hugh Williams]

Perhaps I have posted these photographs on the wrong thread as there has been no response to them whatsoever.
Am I wasting my time?

Bob.
Hi Bob,

Hell no, but I have just found them. It takes time to get through the site, together with all the other stuff that's going on, y'know, being retired, having a young black labrador dog, model research, model railway...these pics are great. Consider them downloaded........

Kindest regards,

Hugh Williams

[chris westwood]

cracking pictures

she was a different animal then to when my father joined her after her 1944 refit

[Ragtimer]

I have been away from the site for a while but the link to the war history of Shropshire,Achilles,Leander and Ceylon were so interesting.I have my father's service record as a Royal Marine 1936-1946 and he served in those ships at various times during the war.Combining the two and Jack harker's book about Achilles is just wonderful to see what my father went through and survived including the bomb on X turret of Achilles at Gaudalcanal and torpedoing of Leander.

[INVINCIBLE]

I cannot find a thread concerning just the Leander so I will post these pictures here.

HMS Leander and biplane supermarine Walrus 1939.

The Submarine Walrus was a british single-engine amphibious biplane reconnaissance aircraft designed by R. J. Mitchell and operated by the Fleet Air Arm. It also served with the RAF, RAAF, RNZN, RCAF & RNZAF. Perhaps surprisingly it was the first British squadron-service aircraft to incorporate a fully-retractable main undercarriage, completely enclosed crew accommodation, and having an all-metal fuselage.



The Walrus first came into NZ service in 1936 when the cruisers Leander and Achilles were equipped in that year and the next. They were operated by No. 700 Sqn of the RN FAA - but many of the Sqn members were attached from the RNZAF.


Quote "The RNZAF Walrus, K8558 of the FAA was meant to be a stored spare at Hobby's FAA depot but was instead used by the RNZAF from August 1941 to train pilots so they could deliver Short Singapores from Singapore to Fiji. This Walrus was wrecked when it did a wheels down landing on Auckland Harbour".


Bob.

Bob,

You are most certainly not wasting your time posting quality photograhs such as those. I see quite a few of them have been looked at and I am sure appreciated. Keep up the good work!

[Dave Homewood]

Hi Bob (batstiger)

This is my first post here, I have just joined the forum after finding it earlier this week.

May I say that these photos of Leander's Walrus are just outstanding. Many thanks for posting them here. They are of great interest to me as I am an RNZAF historian, and I'm also a film maker. I have interviewed many WWII veterans lately to get their memories onto video. Among them I've filmed one chap who was the Telegraphist Air Gunner aboard the Walrus aboard HMNZS Leander, who served on her in the Med and the Pacific. I have also filmed another sailor who was on Leander in the Pacific including when shehad the hole blown in her side. And I have filmed an interview with a chap who was an RNZAF Flight Mechanic who served aboard Achilles maintaining the Walrus.

I have not been able to find many photos of the Walrus on either ship and these are by far the best I have seen. I would love to get your permission to please use these when I come to editing the interviews if possible, please. One film project in particular I'm working on is about and called New Zealanders in the Fleet Air Arm which will feature the Telegraphist Air Gunner and the RNZAF Mechanic in it. And the other interview and probably these first two will also be used to create an exhibition touch screen display.

Is there any chance I might be able to get permission to use these wonderful photos, please?

One thing of note, I see in your text you refer to it as a Submarine Walrus. That's a neat trick if the pilot could pull it off, but in reality it was a Supermarine Walrus. :)

Again, many thanks for sharing these photos. Are there any more?

[Dave Homewood]

Out of interest, were the Achilles and the Leander identical in design? Or did they differ in some aspects despite being in the same class? (I'm a novice when I comes to ships, sorry if it's a dumb question)

[Old Salt]

Out of interest, were the Achilles and the Leander identical in design? Or did they differ in some aspects despite being in the same class? (I'm a novice when I comes to ships, sorry if it's a dumb question)

Dave
It is good question, one I have never considered.
But I have not heard of any differences.

Now you have got me comparing photographs !

Brian

[astraltrader]

They were both essentially the same.

Both Achillies and Leander differed from the other class members in that the two New Zealand vessels had X turret removed in order to carry heavier 20 mm and 40 mm anti-aircraft guns in its place....

[tjstoneman]

HMS ACHILLES and HMS LEANDER were nearly identical in design - ACHILLES was 1 foot wider in the beam. However, like most warships, their configuration changed at various refits and repairs during their service. By the start of the Second World War, both had received the heavier catapult to launch Walrus aircraft, and HMS LEANDER had been fitted with four twin 4" mountings as secondary armament; HMS ACHILLES retained the original four single 4" guns. LEANDER's catapult was removed in mid-1941 for a few months; it was finally landed in 1943; ACHILLES' catapult was removed at about this time. In October 1941, the Royal New Zealand Navy was formed, and so the two cruisers became HMNZS LEANDER and HMNZS ACHILLES. Both ships had "X" turret removed in 1943/44, to be replaced by light AA weapons - indeed the light AA armament was altered several times in each ship, as was the RDF (radar) fit and fire control for the secondary armament.
Tim

[Dave Homewood]

Thanks for the replies, very interesting stuff.

[Old Salt]

HMS ACHILLES and HMS LEANDER were nearly identical in design - ACHILLES was 1 foot wider in the beam. However, like most warships, their configuration changed at various refits and repairs during their service. By the start of the Second World War, both had received the heavier catapult to launch Walrus aircraft, and HMS LEANDER had been fitted with four twin 4" mountings as secondary armament; HMS ACHILLES retained the original four single 4" guns. LEANDER's catapult was removed in mid-1941 for a few months; it was finally landed in 1943; ACHILLES' catapult was removed at about this time. In October 1941, the Royal New Zealand Navy was formed, and so the two cruisers became HMNZS LEANDER and HMNZS ACHILLES. Both ships had "X" turret removed in 1943/44, to be replaced by light AA weapons - indeed the light AA armament was altered several times in each ship, as was the RDF (radar) fit and fire control for the secondary armament.
Tim

Thanks Tim for that info.
Brian

[maxs75]

HMS ACHILLES and HMS LEANDER were nearly identical in design - ACHILLES was 1 foot wider in the beam. However, like most warships, their configuration changed at various refits and repairs during their service. By the start of the Second World War, both had received the heavier catapult to launch Walrus aircraft, and HMS LEANDER had been fitted with four twin 4" mountings as secondary armament; HMS ACHILLES retained the original four single 4" guns. LEANDER's catapult was removed in mid-1941 for a few months; it was finally landed in 1943; ACHILLES' catapult was removed at about this time. In October 1941, the Royal New Zealand Navy was formed, and so the two cruisers became HMNZS LEANDER and HMNZS ACHILLES. Both ships had "X" turret removed in 1943/44, to be replaced by light AA weapons - indeed the light AA armament was altered several times in each ship, as was the RDF (radar) fit and fire control for the secondary armament.
Tim


Hello,
I'd like to know the weapons carried by the HMNZS Leander and Achilles in 1941-43 before the war damage.

Now, the best I could find was:
Both had 4xII 6" as main armament

HMNZS Leander late 1941 (in Mediterranean a 2 pdr was fitted in lieu of seaplane, but it was again landed and seaplane refitted):
4xII 4", 5-6x20mm, 1(?) quad 0,5" MG, 2 quad TT, 1catapult with Walrus seaplane
Mid 1942 refit (where?) Canadian gunnery RDF set fitted to DCT, USN type HF/DF set fitted between bridge & funnel, Type 291 RDF set fitted to foremast.
After nov 1942-march 1943 refit:
4xII 4", 9x20mm, (?) quad 0,5" MG, 2 quad TT. Radars: Type 273 fitted.




HMNZS Achilles late 1941:
4xI 4", 3 quad 0,5" MG, 2 quad TT, 1catapult with Walrus seaplane
Later (1942) (possibly after september-december 1942 refit in Aukland):
7x20mm, 3(?) quad 0,5" MG, 2 quad TT, 1catapult with Walrus seaplane
Why the 4" were removed?

http://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Chrono-06CL-Achilles.htm
says:
1942

April
3rd Escorted rma QUEEN ELIZABETH, ss MARIPOSA and ss PRESIDENT COOLIDGE from Kermadoc Islands during passage to Sydney.

6th Mountings for seven single 20mm Oerlikon mountings fitted in Sydney to supplement defence against close range air attacks.


May

5th Joined US Task Force 17 with HMAS AUSTRALIA and HMAS HOBART for the support of US amphibious operations in SW Pacific.

20mm Oerlikon guns fitted (Ex HMS LEANDER).



None of them had 2 pdr guns fitted when in the Pacific before the great 1943-44 refit. Is it correct?

Thank you in advance
Max

[vividvanuatu]

warm good morning from Vanuatu.

I wonder if any body out there could help me please.

I am trying to find out any information on the following member of the crew from HMNZS Achilles.

HUTCHINS, Terence A T, Petty Officer, 1207 (RNZN), Achilles (RNZN), 22 May 1942, illness, died

Mr Hutchins is buried in the Port Vila cemetery here in Vanuatu and with ANZAC day approaching we would like to find out a bit more info on him.

Many thanks from here.

Andrew

[Old Salt]

Hi Andrew

Thanks so much for thinking of this Kiwi as we near Anzac Day.

I have asked the RNZN Museum and expect a reply in a couple of days. Hopefully they will have some more information.


Brian