The strange case of Kinzhal aboard Frunze and Kalinin

[Luca]

I've always wondered whether the SA-N-9 short-range system were fitted or not aboard Frunze and Kalinin battlecruisers (and, yes, the third Kiev carrier, too). I've read quite a few books/articles on soviet navy (mostly pre-1991 stuff): all photos show plates covering launchers and no cross-sword radars, but the system itself is said to be operational. There's also a widely available picture of Frunze allegedly launching a Gauntlet missile from the bow. Does anyone have information?:) (I guess some soviet-style production bottlenecks: not enough radars for Udaloys and Kirovs)

[shura1971]

Nice photo, but it's not Kinzhal :) It's a decoy dispenser PK-2 (http://warfare.ru/?linkid=2407&catid=333)

[Luca]

Thanx:) Yep, I thought it was some kind of chaff, because the launching position is really too forward (just behind/aside the rbu rockets). Nevertheless, wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SA-N-9_(battlecruiser_Frunze).JPEG and some navy specialists say it's kinzhal (my source: Cosentino M., Stanglini R., La Marina Sovietica. Edizioni Aeronautiche Italiane, 1991).

[r.morrison]

The picture is over twenty years old, and yes it seems to be a bit too far forwards.

Enclosed foto of P.V. must confirm this :cool:

[Old Seaman]

Here you are guys with KINZHAL launching system on "P. the Great" CGN.

[Old Seaman]

Same AAW system on "Admiral Chebanenko" DDG.

Regards,
Serge

[r.morrison]

Great photos, but the SAN 9 system you show is one of the two batteries located towards the ship"s stern.

[r.morrison]

Apparently according to warfare ru. the missiles are launched via a gas catapult from their individual containers and the actual acceleration stage of the missile kicks in afterwards, hence protecting the platform from flash burning and lowering the thermal image of the ship.
This is obviously not the case in the original photo.
Looking at the detailled photo on wiki, it is evident too that the projectiles are very far forward of the two forward battery positions under the sliding armoured plates.

Is there someone (an ex Russian sailor for example) to confirm this?

Best wishes Jim:)

[r.morrison]

One photo shows the position of the PK2 decoy launcher on an early KIROV type.

The second diagram shows the position of the two forward SA N 9 batteries each of which has four launch wells (32 missiles)
;)

[r.morrison]

Finally a bit clearer a commented view of the forward deck area on Petr Velikly and a view of the control system for the SAN 9 Kinshal:)

[Rogov]

Is there someone....


random .... :D

[Luca]

Nice pics Morrison and Rogov, thanks:)
Apparently, and as far as the earlier Kirovs are concerned, Kinzhal was operational only in Tom Clancy's (wildest) wet dreams:p
Mh, I also don't think Frunze featured "sliding armoured covers": it's more likely that the Sa-N-9 was never installed. In your diagrams and in the photos posted by Old Seaman, the launchers are usually rotary vls with no plates. And no bow cross sword/gauntlets for poor Peter the Great: budget constraints?;)

Anyway, the "Kinzhal saga" is imho quite emblematic of cold war psychology: no radars? no missiles? Yes, I see, but it can't be true, 'cause I can't live without all that "Soviet Military Power" extravaganza... :cool:

Ps: any photo of Novorossiysk aircraft carrier with cross swords suite? Never seen!

[r.morrison]

Is there at least one member who has set foot on PV ?

The fact that there are only two four clusters towards the rear now, and that the two plates cover nothing may perhaps be explained by the use of 6 KASHTAN systems which were not on the earlier models.

What of the SA N 4 OSA system ? Some say it too is no longer operational on P.V. ? I'll have to look for 2 pop groups then........

The SA N 20 and its' TOMBSTONE radar are very visible in any case.

Best regards to all, Jim :)

[Luca]

Is there at least one member who has set foot on PV ?

The fact that there are only two four clusters towards the rear now, and that the two plates cover nothing may perhaps be explained by the use of 6 KASHTAN systems which were not on the earlier models.

Kalinin got Kashtan, too (the first ship ever), but again no Kinzhal.

What of the SA N 4 OSA system ? Some say it too is no longer operational on P.V. ? I'll have to look for 2 pop groups then........

No pop groups, no osa.

I found some info at astronautix.com:

"Klinok entered military service in the larger anti-ship version of the system aboard 1155 vessels in 1989. In 1992 it was planned that the system be included in the type 1144 nuclear cruisers Frunze (later Admiral Lazarov) and Klinok (later Admiral Nakhimov), each with two Klinok installations, a total of 128 missiles per ship."

http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/kinzhal.htm

In late 80s there were at least four Udaloys still waiting, after almost ten years, for their anti-aircraft weapon (never got it and were decomissioned). The Kirovs, who already had Grumble&Gecko, and Novorossiysk (Goblet) maybe could wait a little longer:)

[r.morrison]

Many thanks, that is one of the reasons we need a forum, it furthers the common knowledge of all, best wishes

[r.morrison]

Looking at a deck photo of KALININ the rear emplacements where the SA N 9 should have been are covered by the same style of steel plates, albiet a bit longer. A few tech problems to get the photo on line but hope to resolve this soon. :)

[r.morrison]

As promised, the deck photo of KALINNIN which shows the rear KASHTANS and the large steel plating where the SA N 9 "should have been".

Do we have anything on her latest status ?:cool:

[Luca]

This pic shakes hands with my bottlenecks theory;) At that point (1989-), Baku and Kuznetsov already had Kizhal. The iconographic fate of Kalinin is curious: many more pics during perestrojka than today.