WW2 Russian Arctic Convoys

[The Sailor]

WW2 Russian Arctic Convoys. Were they worth all the losses of both life and ships?

Russian convoys.

Between 1941-1945, 42 Eastbound convoys, loaded to their plimsol lines with all types of war supplies, fought both the enemy and the appaling weather to deliver their valuable cargoes. Returning Westward convoys numbered 36.

Russian convoys resulted in about 3,000 deaths of both merchant and navy sailors.

Total tonnage delivered to Russia.

East bound convoys delivered about 4 million tons of the necessities of war, including 5,000 tanks and 7,000 + aircraft. Having survived the hazardous voyage through Arctic waters, in many cases the weather was a bigger threat or at least equal to that posed by both the German Navy and its U-Boats, plus the Luftwaffe, these ships generally empty had to again flog through 3,000 miles of dreadful weather to return to home ports.

One must pose, was it all worth the loss of so many Merchant and Royal Navy sailors and could the equipment, a mere drop in the bucket compared to the vast quantity needed by Soviet forces, have been better used elsewhere by the Allies?

PQ-17 alone

Allied losses were horrendous, two thirds of the convoy lost, 24 ships sunk, 8 by U- Boats, 8 by Aircraft, and 8 damaged by Aircraft, then finally sunk by the U-Boats.

Lost Equipment from PQ-17 alone.

210 Bombers, 430 Tanks, 3350 Vehicles, and approximately 100,000 tons of Munitions.

German losses.
Only 6 Aircraft.

Deaths of Allied Seamen.
153 Allied Seamen died from P.Q.17, but not one Naval Officer or Rating were killed in their defence.

Therefore were the Arctic Convoys Worthwhile?
No doubt the 4 million tons delivered to Stalin's Russia via the Arctic Convoys played their small part in the defeat of the German invasion, but it is difficult to find any Soviet acknowledgement of this fact or any thanks for the sacrifices made by the men of the Merchant Marine, Royal Navy and US Navy to deliver the goods.

This gesture to the Soviet Union of running the gauntlet of German forces and dreadful weather conditions may well have shortened the war in Europe if this vast amount of war material had been applied elsewhere, and had not been delivered to a rather ungrateful country ruled by the Dictator Stalin.

Post war the former Allies and Russia would face up to a long period of the Cold War, whilst Russia occupied a great deal of central and the eastern part of Europe.

In the photo below, the ammunition ship Mary Luckenback explodes during an air attack on Arctic Convoy PQ18, September 14, 1942.

Allied Warship Losses:

Cruisers Edinburgh, Trinidad, destroyers Achates, Hardy, Mahratta, Matabele, Punjabi, Sokrushitelny, Somali, sloops Kite, Lark, Lapwing, frigate Goodall, corvettes Bluebell, Denbigh Castle, Tunsberg Castle, minesweepers Bramble, Gossamer, Leda and Niger, submarine P 551 (Jastrzab), armed whaler Shera.


For all details of losses see this site. Fantastic.
http://www.warsailors.com/convoys/arctic.html#alliedlosses

[herakles]

You pose a very difficult question Sailor. Could the supplies have been better used elsewhere. I don't really know.

But I am confident that there was political motive behind the decision to send the convoys. After all, originally the Soviets and Germany had a pact between them, broken only when the Germans attacked the Soviet Union. For the Allies to then align themselves with the Russians was a significant thing.

I would want to suggest that political motives were a major ingredient in this. Recall too, that Stalin, Roosevelt and Churchill met at least twice and at these meetings decisions of major importance were made. Not to have been supplying munitions to Russia would I'm sure have weakened Churchill's hand considerably.

Just how useful the supplies were to the Russians I am in no position to answer.

There's no doubt that the cost of the delivery was truly frightful.

The list you give of Allied losses is sobering. If one takes in the full scene, losses from other non Soviet convoys like from Halifax or the USA, the list must be formidable.

Lastly, a throw away comment: did you know that one of Australia's VC's was earned in Russia?

:(

[The Sailor]

In fact at the time of Stalingrad, Stalin was outraged that the Western allies wouldn't invade Europe in 1942 let alone '44.
There was a very good reason for this. The West just happened to value it's people a bit more that Russia did.
Machine gunning them from the rear if they faltered wasn't exactly one of our policies.
We waited until we were ready. We waited until we thought we could do the job with a minimum of casualties.
Gone were the days of massed frontal charges envisioned by moronic homocidal British generals from the First World War. By WW2, all lives were valuable and the best had to be done to preserve them.
As it turned out, Stalin's policies of life having no value meant that they held out. Twenty million Soviets later we invaded and the war in Europe ended at Berlin.

Herk I don't know about Australia's VC being earned in Russia? Tell the story mate. Many on here will appreciate it and comment like we do on everything else.

[herakles]

Yet to have opened a second front in '42 would have been most useful to Stalin and I'm sure foreshortened that dreadful Stalingrad campaign.

Of course we weren't ready a the time. Or able. And the Americans were still making up their minds whether to be on our side or the German.

Though I agree with you that the Russian value on life was not high.

I think you are being a bit harsh on the generals in WW1. Our side, the Germans, French and even the Russians performed as only they knew how to at the time. It took years to learn what we would understand as modern warfare. And it took Monash to develop it. The battle of Le Hamel was a watershed. It took the Australians 51 minutes to wipe the Hun out. Monash had predicted 50 minutes. From then on, there was no turning back.

I happen to regard Haig as an outstanding general - but a man of his times. He did all he could, given the circumstances.

[The Sailor]

I once read that Haig was given the job because of his masculine square jaw structure that suited a manly British general and his body being well suited to a tailored uniform.

At the time of the Somme offensive in 1916, the British generals had nearly two years to learn that the soldiers were no longer facing the spears of the fuzzy wussies or Zulus. Millions had already been mowen down by German machine guns and artillery, but they still instructed the army on the morning of July 1st 1916 to "walk slowly across no mans land with nothing up the spout".
I rest my case.

The Australian General Monash was able to finally drag Napolionic war Britain into the 20th century. Syncronizing aircraft, tanks, artillery, mines and above all accurate timing.

Haig below

[John Brown]

Like others, I cannot judge just how useful the equipment supplied to Russia was. It cannot be doubted however that keeping Russia in the war was crucial to winning it. Therefore, if the supply of equipment even at such a cost, helped only in a small way to keep millions of Germans tied up on the eastern front it was probably the right course of action.

Russia had lost something like 20 million people under Stalin before the war even started. They were to loose another 20 million during the war and many of those before the western allies opened a second front. It is not difficult to see therefore why the loss of 3000 foreigners (quoting sailors figure) lives in supplying the material that was meant to help them bear the brunt of the fighting for so long received so little appreciation from them.

Germanys attack on Russia threw Churchill and Stalin together as strange bedfellows. When asked about this unlikely alliance Churchill remarked that he would make a pact with the devil if it helped to defeat Hitler. (not an exact quote). Anybody see any parallels with how the west viewed Saddam Hussein when Iraq fought their 8 year war with Iran?

Finally this may be a further indication of Stalins feelings for Britain......

In 1944 the battleship HMS Royal Sovereign was loaned to Russia in lieu of reparations from the surrendered Italian fleet and renamed Arkhangelsk. When she was returned to the Royal Navy in 1949, every gun from machine gun to 15 inch main armament was loaded. In addition, the mess decks were covered in human excrement.

[tim lewin]

Whilst on the subject of statistics and the horrors of Arctic convoys let me quote you here the forword to Richard Woodman's book written a few years ago by dear old dad who also spent 2 years on the Kola run in Ashanti.

"In the history of the Second World War the term Arctic Convoy conjures up an image of endurance against great odds, of battles fought in the Arctic night in which ice, snow, and high winds added to the horrors of war. It was indeed conditions in the arctic which set the convoys to Russia apart from other theatres of war. In winter seamen fought a continual battle against gales and ice in almost perpetual darkness; in summer the sun rarely set and there was no respite from the threat or reality of attack. In fact the Arctic convoys were amazingly successful. Of a total of forty outward convoys comprising 811 ships only 68 were sunk. Those that got through delivered great quantities of tanks, aircraft, ammunition, and other essential war materials which made a significant contribution to Russia's role in the war."
A war we would probably have lost if the Russians had not been on "our" side! Its no good complaining about the politics of war, war is a political creation, it's is one of the great immutable facts of human nature that war is the last resort of politics....

[herakles]

Oh, I don't think "would probably have lost" Tim. We WOULD have lost!

One of Hitler's biggest mistakes to take them on. If not the biggest. Why is that the Man doesn't learn from his history?

With the warm water passage of the Dardanelles and Med denied the Allies, the Arctic was the only alternative I guess. Now if we had held Crete ... ... ...

[The Sailor]

I can't go along with the fact that we would have lost the war. By the time it would have got to a crucial stage the Allies had perfected nuclear weapons and like we did with Japan, we would have used them on Germany and Russia if it had been necessary.

[herakles]

Not true Sailor. Firstly, would we have used a nuclear weapon against either Germany or Russia? I really do doubt it.

Secondly, perfecting the bomb was one thing. Having enough nuclear material is another. The second bomb on Japan cleaned us out. There was none left. Making U235 or now Plutonium is a very long slow process as we are seeing with Iran's attempts now.

To not have had Russia "on our side" would have been disastrous. There is a body of opinion that says it was Russia that won WW2.

[Batstiger]

I thought it was the good old US of A that won the war for us and surely it was their nuclear weapons that were used on Japan?

[The Sailor]

No Bob, they were Allied nuclear weapons.
It was a them and us situation. We were part of "us". Some of us still are.

Anyone who thinks that after using nuclear weapons on Japan for no other reason than to save more allied lives, that they wouldn't have used them on Germany and Russia if it meant actually losing the war is dreaming.

And Herk, they actually had a third bomb ready. In Paul Tibbets interview in 2002, he said he was told to get ready to drop the third one within seven days if they still hadn't surrended.

[herakles]

Well Sailor, I must be dreaming. Because I seriously doubt we would have used the bomb in Europe. Then or even later in the Cold War. Of the Americans, I'm not so sure.Their reaction to Russia installing them in Cuba brought about an expected response. But even then, I do wonder if the Americans would have let one go.

I think the point of nuclear weapons was to generate the fear that we might.

Which is why most effort was put into detecting their imminent arrival rather than take the "me first" attitude.

I was quite unaware of the existence of a third bomb. All my reading on the matter says that we didn't. I do doubt that what Tibbets said is true.

But even if there was a 3rd bomb, there wasn't a fourth if you get my drift.

Bob, I take your point. But appreciate that the USA was fully stretched at the time, fighting so vigorously on two fronts. I happen to think the war wasn't so much won in Europe as lost. Germany was so weakened by their campaign against the Russians that their resistance didn't amount to all that much. Their push in the Ardennes was I believe a desperate last effort just as their push in late 1917 was. An "all or nothing" approach.

[The Sailor]

Herk, you have to get it into perspective.

It was you that bought up the scenerio of losing the war in Europe.
The reason that I believe that they would have nuked Germany rather than have the Germans strutting down Whitehall was because I myself would have pushed the button. If I would have done it, you can bet that there were people at that time that were capable of making that decision like they made it twice in Japan. I say again twice.
The governments then weren't the pansy ones of today. We were in a world war and it HAD to be won.

Now as far as how many bombs they had, one would have done it. Japan could have waited. They were beaten anyway.
Even I wouldn't have nuked Berlin or Frankfurt. I would have given a demonstration up on the Baltic coast followed by an ultimatum.
Game over.

[herakles]

Japan couldn't have waited. It was No.1 on the American hit list and the loss of life taking Japan any other way would have been awesome.

And appreciate that whilst the development of the bomb was a joint effort, it was the Americans that pulled all the strings.

And consider this: that prior to the bomb, there was a hellofa strong likelihood that England was going to be occupied. I believe it was only Hitler's fond hope that Britain would join him that caused the crucial delay.

And also consider this: we did nuke German cities. Razed them to the ground. It's just that we didn't use nuclear weapons to do it. They're still going on about it today.

And tell me this: if the British Govt was so committed to this approach, why is it that Bomber Command was the ONLY group not to have a medal struck for them after the war?

[tim lewin]

you havnt mentioned that Germany was also developing nuclear technology at full speed and might well have beaten us to it if not for the demands of the Eastern front.
tim

[The Sailor]

There was no need to mention it Tim. All their efforts had been frustrated by either partisans or the allied bombing campaign. Even their heavy water project in Norway was destroyed whilst America developed without interference.
We would have contained them them then nuked them into submission by either threat or action.

[herakles]

You have a god point Tim.

Despite the Russian Front, the Germans had perfected the rocket and created the V1 and V2. Years ahead of everyone else. And they had the jet engine perfected and planes in the air.

Yet they never got to the bomb. Why not? The Russian Front? Certainly a reason. But - Hann and Strassman had split the atom first and they did have the deuterium (heavy water) from Norway. At least for awhile.

I think it's at least partly because they didn't have the scientists. Large numbers of distinguished men had fled the country.

[The Sailor]

Give me a break Herk. There is only one thing important in world history and that is that 'them", didn't get it and "us" did.

[stontamar]

All very good but how about concentrating on Royal Navy Ships or ships crews in this section of the forum?

[The Sailor]

Bit rare on here to see such vigorous discussion on any subject Stontamar.
The conversation developed from whether we should have bothered supplying Russia at all and what the consequences would be. It interested several people.
Frankly I hope we have more of them.

[herakles]

I agree with you Sailor.

I find your post very off-putting Stonamar.

The thread started as an interesting one very related to British ships and progressed from there.

Surely that's the point of it being a forum. "Consequences". As Sailor said. Very true.

[John Brown]

Leaving aside the 'what ifs' of the nuclear debate there are, of course, many things that contributed to Germanys loss of the war. In my view, however, there were three main elements which, without any one of them would have meant a very different end result.

Firstly, without Britains decision to fight on, aided by her colonies, after the fall of France, the story might well have ended there.
However, it is doubtful that Britain could have defeated Germany or even maintained an indefinite 'stalement' under these circumstances. The British Government had even drawn up plans, despite Churchills emotional 'we will fight them on the beaches' type speeches, for attempting a negotiated peace if the situation got too bad.

The second vital element was therefore the Russian campaign which effectively put paid to the German plans for the invasion of Britain. We are all aware of the terrible cost in men and equipment that Germany suffered on the eastern front. However, by attacking Russia, Germany not only gave Britain an ally but she lost a powerful one of her own.

The third vital element for Germanys loss of the war was the involvement of the United States. Without her manpower and enormous industrial capacity I doubt even the Britain/Russia team would have prevailed. Let's not forget though that without Britains earlier decision to 'fight on' it would have been much more difficult for the USA to wage an effective war against Germany.

So who do we ultimately have to thank for Germany losing the war?

Britain, for holding out and, amongst other things, becoming a launching pad for the invasion of Europe.

Hitler, for invading Russia, causing Germany not only material and manpower losses but also a powerful ally.

Japan, for attacking the USA and, under the terms of the tripartite act, forcing Germany to declare war on the Americans.

[rusty]

Q -- Did the Russians ever use any of the 5.000 tanks front line,dont think so.thay just where not good anough , thay had there v good T34s ,thay built 1.000s of em ,as well of aircraft.

Artic Convoys ? ? NO. Far east convoys to the 14th army ect, YES.

just a old gits Thoughts

[herakles]

John, I believe your summation is quite correct.

I would add this: a series of events turned the American will toward Britain that was lacking before. These were "most convenient". Until then, there was considerable sympathy for the Nazi in the USA and as well, some opposition toward helping Britain. I regard Kennedy Senior, then Ambassador in London, to have been one of our strongest enemies.

USA isolation wishes were well developed and required changing. Roosevelt did much for this but I also question some of his motives.

I'm sure everyone breathed a sigh of relief when Pearl Harbour was attacked.

Another factor in Germany's downfall is that I believe Hitler was barking mad. His decisions, often taken on the advice of an astrologer, were usually illogical and sometimes dangerous.

There is a good analogy wrt Russia's importance in us gaining victory. When the Russian Front collapsed in the 14-18 War, Germany no longer had a second front and was able to concentrate all on the Western Front. It made a huge difference.

But being bedmates with the Russians came at a terrible price as events after the war demonstrated. Something that Churchill was only too well aware of and basically powerless to prevent, having been sidelined at Yalta by Roosevelt. The Americans were working on their own agenda, ably demonstrated by the many strange decisions taken by Eisenhower, leaving Monty jumping up and down in frustration. Such as not allowing him to push into Germany and race the Russians for Berlin.

Rusty, I think you ask a significant question. Just how the considerable amount of aid to Russia was used? You are right in saying that they had an extremely competent tank of their own.

As for the 14th Army in Burma! Ah! That is such a big story. It would be nice to learn something of the convoys to them. Can anyone here can add this?

[The Sailor]

Rusty I noted your point about the tanks. The American General Grants were no where near the standard that was needed for the Eastern front and the T-34 was vastly superior. I have read where a lot of these precious cargos were just wasted or used in training. Many of the thousands of Studebaker trucks were wrecked from poor or no roads and poor driving ability in seas of mud.
However, the Bell Aerocobras delivered were highly successful against the Luftwaffe.

But generally speaking, it must have been having an effect because of the determination of the Germans to halt the convoys.
The Bell Aerocobras were highly successful against the Luftwaffe in fact.

And John, who do we have to thank for winning the war in Europe?

You covered most of them.
Wrongful decisions by Hitler was the top reason.
Britain holding out which enabled America to join them with their armed might.
Russia's massive effort in the east.

If Russia had stayed out of it, the war would have lasted longer in the West and as I said earlier, the race for nuclear weapons would have decided it.

[tim lewin]

You need to analyse the content of the aid to Russia not just the numbers; the tanks were sent at the beginning when the T34 didnt exist, they needed them as much as we needed the "Towns" from the USA. There were vast numbers of trucks and less dramatic supplies such as boots, rations, spares, aircraft etc. I work quite a lot in Russia and several of my colleagues have fathers or grandfathers who drove imported tanks and get very mist-eyed about the human dimensions of the Arctic convoys. The bulk of support to the USSR went via the gulf and thence by train but there was little propaganda value in this rather routine supply operation. The Arctic convoys with all of their hardships and danger were an essential political necessity in reminding all Govts of the "effort" made to maitain a combined front. It also tied down resources of the Germans that would have been very damaging elsewhere. Coming back to content, the materiel sent in the convoys wasn't a sort of surprise parcel to Russia, they did provide shopping lists of what was wanted, and in the main, pay for it. (Just as we did to the USA).
tim

[The Sailor]

Very sensible and credible reply Tim. I'm sure you know more about it then we do, working there like you do in contact with the locals. Cheers.

[tim lewin]

I am trying to get some of their historians to put their own perspective of the times and events, more form the human perspective than political, to paper for me, or at least drag it from the archives, which i will post when available. At all levels life was pretty dreadful in the Murmansk region for everyone, mostly so for the Russians as they couldnt leave or even have a thought of leaving, merchant seamen also had a pretty rough time waiting for return escort.

Back to the convoys, did you see our earlier posts about the tanker Azerbaijan in the PQ17 debacle? she was mostly crewed by women, certainly the 4-inch gun, which actually downed a bomber. She was torpedoed but didnt sink. Most of the male crew baled out in a lifeboat as they thought she would go down, the girls kept banging away as they did this. When they saw the ship was still afloat they rowed back but were refused boarding as deserters by the captain. They were eventually picked up by a rescue ship (maybe Zamalek?) and the old ship plodded on to arrive in treiumph and a shower of medals. I have read the soviet reports of the time and note no mention of the lads rowing exploits is made.

Sadly the Russians have had a bad press (no doubt thru political reasons) over their enthusiasm for the allied convoys but I can assure you that they recognise it now, prob our press there at the time was just as churlish.
tim

[herakles]

Extraordinary story!

Gives one food for thought!

[The Sailor]

Funny to get another perspective after a lifetime of the Allied one only.
Growls from the Russian Bear and all that.

Maybe times have changed in Russia like they have in Germany?

[Kiwicruiser]

For anyone interested, we have a Russian Convoy Club in New Zealand which has a good website: www.russianconvoyclub.org.nz. Worth a look.

[The Sailor]

Well done 'our mate from the south', I am going to make time later to read it all when my wife releases me from the garden.

And Kiwi, can I help you find an avatar you would like to use?

[BB60]

US attitudes toward the war were changing with US ships being sunk and damaged well prior to the Pearl Harbor attack. The isolationists were already losing sway by early 1941. The US knew there was going to be North American involvement in the war, in addition to Canada, as evidenced by the mobilization of the National Guard in 1940. Roosevelt understood the ramifications of a German controlled Europe was doing his utmost to maneuver the US toward war on the British side.

Hitler did the Western Allies a huge favor by his Dec 11 Declaration of War, no doubt but the US was already leaning toward the British cause. It would not have taken much to bring in the US, if incidents even remotely similar to 1916-17 occured in the Atlantic again.

As far as the bomb not being dropped on European soil, don't doubt for one minute the US would not had the least bit of compunction about obliterating cities beligerant to the Allies in Central Europe.

[herakles]

There's no doubt in my mind that the sinking of US ships prior to Pearl Harbour was most significant.

US isolation was well entrenched however and it needed Pearl Harbour to change things.

As concerns dropping bombs on Central Europe, you and I will have to just disagree BB60.

[The Sailor]

Hi ya Jeff. Great to see you drop in. USS Alabama Avatar looks good mate.
Graeme

It would be of interest to know just how many US senators were of German, Italian or even Irish Catholic descent.
My memory on reading about it was that it was a large percentage of the Senate that weren't of British heritage.
I think that people outside America have never given full credibility to that point. Why would a German or Irish Senator want to fight for Britain.
Most Irish migrants left home to migrate to the US under dire circumstances.

[BB60]

I doubt it would have made much of difference what their descent was. Look at Ike's last name.

Looking at a listing of the Senate from 1940, there were very, very few German or Italian sounding surnames, possibly 2 or 3 "maybes" out of 96. About the only Senators with "Irish" surnames who would have given more than a passing glance at "Britishness" were in the Northeast and since Senators were apportioned equally among the states, they would have not been able to exert undo pro-German pressure. German sentiment had fallen off sharply during and after WWI.

[BB60]

As concerns dropping bombs on Central Europe, you and I will have to just disagree BB60.
What! No flame war?:D

Agree to disagree sounds good to me, just don't come over here trying to teach my daughter's such heresies.:p

[The Sailor]

Thanks Jeff. It was good of you to look those names up.

Joseph Kennedy's name came up earlier and in fact the anti British feelings with the Kennedy family before the war were obvious.
He sent reports back to the states from London saying that Britain had already lost the war and recommended that American not get involved.

[BB60]

You're welcome Graeme. I see you are a busy man here.

[The Sailor]

Yes Jeff. I have enjoyed posting here in ships after aviation.
The forum runs well with very little moderation interference to members and an admin that lets us get on with it.
I have to shudder when I think of the over moderation of those other forums you and I know about. Mods tripping over themselves to find faults, hoping to use their powers.
I got banned from one for saying that David Stirling of the LRDG was my hero.

I realise that you are involved yourself elsewhere as a Mod, but if and when you get time, it'd be great to get the American perspective here.
Graeme

[BB60]

I read through most posts here every night, but as most concern the Royal Navy and ships of the Commonwealth, about all can do is be content to read, as I am not exceptionally knowledgeable about British ships, especially those found outside the mid-twentieth century.

Therefore, I post little because I subscribe to the thought that is better to be quiet and thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.:D

Now, let someone talk about the supposed inferiority of the Fletcher, Iowa or the Essex or classes, I'll jump in for a big swim.

I see now that I am a sub-Leftenant. Is that one wide and one narrow stripe?

[The Sailor]

In fact I have put eight posts in the US ships section myself. That can be your place if you want. We need a resident septic tank.
The US had one or two ships that you can use as fodder.

[tim lewin]

let me reccomend to you both two exceptional books.
"Yankee, RN" which was written by Cdr. Alex Cherry. It describes his experiences in the RN for which he risked much to join in the early days of the war while the USA was still neutral. It gives a fascinating account of his training at Greenwich RNC and life in the RN. He was one of 22 Americans who volunteered to join the RN and whose names are recorded in the stone floor of the Painted Hall at Greenwich, not many feet away from the spot where Nelson's body lay in state after Trafalgar. I think I posted some pics of this and the story of the volunteers before but if anyone wants more just ask.

The second book is "Tin-can Sailor" by Captain Cal Calhoun, a first hand account of life in a US Destroyer that escorted the Wasp and the spitfires that saved Malta right through their violent life in the Pacific to the end of hostilities.
All best
tim

[Kiwicruiser]

Many thanks for the avatar offer, Sailor. I'll have to think about that.

[The Sailor]

I was going to offer this Kiwi.

[BB60]

Thanks Tim.

Is this the book? http://www.amazon.com/Tin-Can-Sailor-1939-1945-Bluejacket/dp/1557502285

[BB60]

In fact I have put eight posts in the US ships section myself. That can be your place if you want. We need a resident septic tank.
The US had one or two ships that you can use as fodder.

I'll post some, but I am busy modding at another site.:eek:

[Harley]

This really has been an interesting thread.

I once read that Haig was given the job because of his masculine square jaw structure that suited a manly British general and his body being well suited to a tailored uniform.

At the time of the Somme offensive in 1916, the British generals had nearly two years to learn that the soldiers were no longer facing the spears of the fuzzy wussies or Zulus. Millions had already been mowen down by German machine guns and artillery, but they still instructed the army on the morning of July 1st 1916 to "walk slowly across no mans land with nothing up the spout".
I rest my case.

The Australian General Monash was able to finally drag Napolionic war Britain into the 20th century. Syncronizing aircraft, tanks, artillery, mines and above all accurate timing.

Haig below

I would be very interested to know where you read the criteria of Haig's selection for the position of Commander-in-Chief of the B.E.F. That fact that he was the best of French's TWO Corps Commanders would of course have nothing to do with it.

The British had already learnt the hard way about fighting war - many people forget that the Boer War was a giant kick in the arse for the British AND Imperial Armies - and that in less than 3 years they'd put the foot on the other boot and crushed the Boers to a point I'm assuming George W. Bush would be madly envious of. And the German casualty figures in the advance into Belgium and the race to the sea show the damage which the pre-war British Army, of which Haig was a shining example, were capable of inflicting.

Hate to say it but guess how many Germans had been mowed down by British and French and Russian machine guns and artillery? A damn sight more, whichever way you look at it. Britain and the rest of the Empire paid a damned heavy price for keeping the Germans, Austrians and Turks in their place (politically incorrect, I know, but it's the truth). A price which they were for the most part willing to pay. Note that the real period of criticism came after most of the Great War veterans started dying in the 1960s.

Australians idolise Monash. Canadians idolise Currie. To say that Monash brought the British army kicking and screaming into the twentieth century simply does not reflect the way armies work - or the evidence. British troops - while not idolising neccessarily Haig, didn't say a bad thing about him till the day they died. Or his Army Commanders, or their Corps Commanders, or their Divisional Commanders, or their Brigade Commanders.

For those who credit Alan Clarke's miserable "Lions led by donkeys" twaddle and the myth that Haig's Chief of Staff said "My God, we sent men to fight in this" with truth, I wholeheartedly recommend the book "Bloody Red Tabs" by Maddocks and Davies, which chronicles the 200+ British General officers killed during WWI. And the plethora of WWI books which have finally started to turn this silly anti-general movement on its head.

Harley

[Harley]

On the actual topic, the Russians were as has been noted in sever need of good American trucks. The Chevrolets and Fords were the vehicle of choice in the Western Desert, and the Russians certainly made use of theirs. Another commodity which was direly needed by the Soviets was WATERPROOF telephone cable. Not having such a great base for producing radios and less of one for telephone wire, Western produced telephone cable was a necessity.

One point on the T34. While cheap and tough, I have it on good authority from armoured experts that the T34 was an absolute impractical bitch of a tank. Superior to a Grant/Lee yes. But compared to a Sherman the only advantage it held was it could be produced in even greater numbers than the M4 in America and the red Army could man them.

The Russians were never very good at advertising the undoubted benefits they accrued from Lend-Lease, but when you're fighting a life-or-death battle for survival, and by March 1943 are winning that battle, there are more important things to think about than your somewhat distant allies' feelings. The valiant loss of life on the Arctic Convoys was more than matched by the price paid by Russians fending off the Germans who couldn't return west in the Summer of 1944.

Harley

Harley

[herakles]

I agree with what you say Harley. Haig was the best at the time and the term "lions led by donkeys" is just not true.

The revisionist historians of today take a very different view of Haig. He was a fine general.

The same thing has happened with discussion on the competence of Gen. Hamilton who led the Gallipoli expedition. Another fine general quite incorrectly blackened. We Australians don't want to admit that Australian senior staff at Gallipoli made many serious errors such as with the frightful carnage of the attack on The Nek.

Both the Allies and the Germans entered WW1 almost completely ignorant of the power of modern weaponry. For example at Gallipoli we had almost no machine guns, no artillery and no hand grenades. It took many years and a great number of lives before they understood.

As concerns Monash - his tactics were brand new and highly effective. So much so that they were adopted immediately by everyone else. For instance he was the first to understand the correct way to use tanks. And to use the air force. They actually were used by him to resupply the troops. The battle of Le Hamel in 1917 was a stunning success because of Monash's planning. And it also explains why soon after, the Australians were able to break the Hindenberg line.

The only reason that Monash didn't take overall command of the entire Army was that he was a Jew and not a professional soldier. The King wanted him to take command until warned that he was a Jew. Don't believe me perhaps?

[The Sailor]

And the plethora of WWI books which have finally started to turn this silly anti-general movement on its head.

Harley[/I]

I say, well written old chap.

However,I am a bit concerned about a point of view that you are projecting that British generals had learnt their lessons during the Boer War. They didn't.

After two years of war on the Western front in WW1, the general staff hadn't learnt it there either and did in fact instruct the attacking force to walk slowly over to the German trenches on the morning of 1st July 1916 with unloaded weapons.
Further, that the subsequent 58000 British casualties left hardly a family in Britain untouched by the tragety?

I'd call that moronic Harley.

[herakles]

You've made your point Sailor!

I don't think for a moment that any lessons were learned from the Boer war except for the effectiveness of having concentration camps.

I'm saying it again: the generals took a long time to understand modern warfare. Yes the battle of the Somme was ghastly. As was Pozieres where more Australian blood was shed than at any other time in our brief history. But they did eventually learn and we won!

And yes, our troops landed at Gallipoli with empty rifles too.

[The Sailor]

The trouble is, we didn't win. There was an an agreement to stop shooting for twenty years that allowed Germany to re arm for a second round.
Sporting of us what?

[herakles]

OK. Point made. But who could anticipate Hitler? And our terms of surrender were very harsh. Then there was that muddled headed wombat Wilson, full of crap and no action. Who did more harm than everyone else put together. Fancy creating the League of Nations then not join it!!!!!!!

My hero of the time is Billy Hughes, the Aussie PM. There was no crap with him. The only man who stood up to that idiot Wilson. And he could speak Welsh to Lloyd George Boyo!! My father knew Lloyd George by the way!!!!! Sorry, couldn't resist writing that.

[BB60]

Fancy creating the League of Nations then not join it!!!!!!!
1. I am no fan of Wilson.
2. Wilson had nothing to do with the US not being a part of the US. The Senate was responsible for that as it alone has to power to ratify treaties, which is what joining the League of Nations would have entailed.

[herakles]

So, it was the US Senate then? Interesting. Hasn't their President the power to over-ride the Senate?

[BB60]

I'm not sure what you mean by override. The President does not make laws, Congress does. He can veto passed legislation but cannot introduce or vote on a bill. He is not a Prime Minister.

[BB60]

The President can enter into treaties but if the Senate doesn't ratify it, it will not be enforced by our country. One of the SALT or START treaties is an example of this.

EDIT
The SALT II treaty was signed by Carter but never ratified by the Senate. Ronaldus Magnus withdrew from it later on.

[herakles]

Yes of course. I was sort of thinking that he could have overturned the decision. But I see now that would require him then to introduce legislation which, as you point out, he can't.

I wonder what he thought of the USA not joining the League?

[BB60]

He was crushed by it. His attempts to get it passed were hampered by his stroke. He was incapacitated for quite a while until the end of his term. It was during the the time that he was trying to get the treaty passed that the opposition party was in power in the Senate and they controlled what legislation could be introduced.

[herakles]

Thanks for that Jeff. I feel a touch more positive about the man now.

Well, isolationism was rampant in the USA at the time so the result was predictable I suppose.

I know it's dangerous commenting on things past, but for the USA not to have joined the League seems from this distance to be amazing.

[Harley]

So much to comment on!

Monash - yes he was a clever chap, however, not everything he had to offer was new or effective. Yes, he did good things with tanks, but it was the British at Cambrai and Amiens who did spectacular things with tanks.

There is no doubting that Monash was a good officer. Montgomery stated that in his opinion Monash was the best infantry commander on the Western Front, and from someone as professional as Monty that's high praise indeed. I have seen the suggestion that Monash take over command of the BEF, except the version I saw had Currie becoming his second-in-command (which is a damning inditement of Currie if you ask me, suggesting that he wasn't suited to continued field command). If you would be so good to point me in the direction of the King's comments re: Monash I would be grateful. I know the King was politely anti-semitic but that attitude was endemic back in the early 20th Century. It took the Holocaust and the formation of the state of Israel to force people to finally re-evaluate their attitides properly.

And I'm sorry, that really is a slur to say that Concentration Camps were the only thing to come out the Boer War. Little known fact that the Spanish introduced them in Cuba a few years earlier, and that their death rates were many times more than the South African camps. And I can't helpit but "Breaker" Moran comes to mind.

And yes, after two years the Somme was something of an anti-climax, a Godawful blooding of the Kitchener Armies. There are a couple of things to note though; the Germans tried their stormtrooper tactics en masse at Verdun not long before the Somme battle opened. It certainly didn't help them make a breakthrough or lessen their casualties. The French tactics which succeeded in turning the tide at Verdun at the end of 1916 failed completely in 1917 on the Marne. And lest anyone forget, the bright eyed and Bushy-tailed American troops of the 1st American Army in 1918 engaged in exactly the same tactics the British, French and Germans had renounced through years of mounting casualties.

Let me make clear, in no way do I belittle and not feel grateful for the sacrifice made by Australia for Britain. We certainly couldn't have won without her help.

Harley

[Stan.J]

Harley, quote!(But it was the British at Cambrai and Amiens who did spectactular things with tanks) At Amien there were 400 tanks sent forward in the attack...After 4 days unfortunatly there were only six(6) left operational. Due not only to conditions but the majority due to mechanical failure. A lot had been learned by the time the second world war came about.

[herakles]

Rusty,

You raise several points.

Firstly, it was true that Australians were specifically denied field execution. They were returned to Australia and considering the euphoria about the war, their reception was always hostile. The shame tactic.

This decision resulted from the disgraceful incident involving Breaker Morant in the Boer War.

Australian troops did get into a lot of trouble. More than anyone else and removing the fear of execution no doubt played a part in that. But it has to be realised that the force was entirely a volunteer one. Very few were professional soldiers - just men doing their bit. So they resented the prevailing attitudes toward discipline, feeling that they should be exempt. And they regarded the British attitudes to their men as barbaric. To be chained to a wheel for instance was beyond their comprehension. (Mine too)

Whoever invented the concentration camp, the British certainly perfected it. Their treatment of Boer families in them was inexcusable. Huge numbers simply died of starvation.

I can't see any good that came out of the Boer war. It was shockingly badly managed and poorly led. The loss of British life at say Spion Kop should be regarded with shame. Certainly there were many examples of extraordinary heroism but overall, it was a disaster.

I agree with the previous post on Cambrai. It wasn't a success at all. The Germans ran away because of their fear of those great lumbering beasts. Half a mile an hour?!!!! The use of the tank afterwards was completely wrong and a huge opportunity was lost as High Command had no idea how to use them effectively. Eventually the Australians refused to fight alongside them.

The whole point about Monash was that he understood how to get the army moving forward. Instead of just more stagnant trench warfare. At Le Hamel the troops were able to keep progressing instead of the status quo of a charge followed by the inevitable retreat. Having the air force drop ammunition to forward troops etc. And he used tanks correctly - in the same manner that they are used today.

I recommend you study Le Hamel. It wasn't a pivitol battle but it re-wrote tactics for the whole battlefield. From that time, the army was able to break out of the trench system and advance. The German High command later said that Le Hamel and the following breakthrough of the Hindenberg Line was their blackest day.

Monty's assessment of Monash is quite correct. And he wasn't just supporting a fellow Australian. (Did you know that? He comes from Hobart Tasmania). Monty knew only too well of the fighting prowess of the Australian troops, learned from North Africa. Which is why he placed the 7th Div on the crucial right flank at Alemein. The men might have been reluctant to salute officers but they were very reliable fighters.

I don't want his thread to deteriorate into a you vs us. Take it as read that I have the highest regard for the British soldier. And that gained from first hand experience.

I'm glad you raised the matter of the Americans in WW1. Yes, they determinedly made all the mistakes learned by us because of their refusal to take advice. Their actual contribution to WW1 I regard as minimal but had the war dragged on, would have become indispensable. It was the fear of America's might that weighed so heavily on German High Command.

There were some American troops at Le Hamel. And when Pershing heard about it, he demanded they not take part as they were only allowed to be led by Americans. This a day before the attack. Fortunately Monash ignored this and they acquitted themselves admirably.

Lastly, you mention Verdun. This should be compulsory reading for any junior officer to learn how not to fight. The slaughter there is unimaginable. The rank stupidity on both sides beggars belief. It is the most chilling battle site I have ever visited.

[The Sailor]

Herk, I have to compliment you on your work here. You are putting more effort into this than everyone else put together.

What is this Stontamar business? What the hell is that about? Seems like he has taken unbrage that no one wanted to participate in his competition.
Hell up to a couple of days ago, no one wanted to participate in anything but we got on with it. Now we have our little scurvy racked group going.

[Harley]

Will post more later, but one thing immediately springs to mind. Montgomery was born in Kennington, London. His father was of Irish protestant stock (indeed the family kept a home there). Montgomery was raised there for 12 years from the age of 1, but for nearly all that time Tasmania was still a self-administrating colony. He certainly didn't regard himself as Australian!

And Cambrai...alas, you can not quite blame the High Command for that. The misuse of tanks by Harper of the 51st HD was criminal it has to be said. The only real sin of the High Command was for letting the attack happen in the first place, knowing that they had no reserves to exploit the favourable situation at the start of the attack, and then getting mired in the German counter-attacks, again, knowing they hadn't the reserves to stem the tide. They should have written Cambrai off as a lesson and abandoned the salient, which suffered so much in the offensives of 1918.

Harley

[herakles]

the Montgomery children grew up in Hobart. Their father was Bishop of Hobart. Monty was born in England (?) but the other siblings are all from Hobart.

I was doing what we Australians call :"stirring the possum"!

There was no Australian identity until about 1950. Until that time we were all issued with British passports. And took them with pride.

I'm not following the Cambrai issue any more as I feel we are diverging too far from the purpose of this forum.

[The Sailor]

Spoken like a true moderator. Now we have lost one we should elect a new one. I nominate Herk for Mod. Hero of the posting class.

[doug.birch]

Hi Sailor, Ithink you were a bit harsh on the RN about not losing any lives over the PQ17. The ships were under orders from London, by Admiral Pound who was later found to be unfit. Doug.Birch RA59 CONVOY, in which our Swordfish sank 3 U-Boats & downed a German plane.

[doug.birch]

Hi, John.Brown, H.M.S.Fencer RA59 gave passage to some of crew that were to man the Royal Sovereign together with their Admiral. my friend.who served on the Duke of York was loaned to the R S train the Russians how to operate the guns. Doug.Birch.

[doug.birch]

Hi Tim.Lewin, I agree with you I like to think that we made some contribution to the final outcome & that it was not all in vain. Doug.Birch ( RA59 )

[astraltrader]

Doug, the Sailor is no longer with the forum.

[John Brown]

Hi, John.Brown, H.M.S.Fencer RA59 gave passage to some of crew that were to man the Royal Sovereign together with their Admiral. my friend.who served on the Duke of York was loaned to the R S train the Russians how to operate the guns. Doug.Birch.

Very interesting Doug.

You and your friend must have some good stories to tell? let's see them on the forum.


Regards...John

[tim lewin]

good to see we have recovered from the trench warfare of the first war and returned to the Russian Arctic convoys; I was in Moscow in May to launch a project to raise support of Russias for the restoration of the masts of HMS Belfast, this ship served two years on Arctic convoy duty culminating in playing a key role in the finding and sinking of the Scharnhorst and is thus a part of their history too. The British Embassy very kindly let us use the atrium of the Embassy building for a reception. We also mounted an exhibition of photographs taken by Robert Diament. Diament was an official photographer attached to Royal Sovereign when she became Archangelsk. There were many pictures of later convoys, the hand-over, Soviet officials and wives, some of the destroyers handed over at the same time. All absolutely sharp as the day they were taken. The son of Robert Diament told me that the pictures come from his fathers private collection and that he plans to publish them in a new book if he can find a sponsor/publisher. We are planning to help him as much as we can but all our sponsorship must be directed to the Belfast project, working title project "Last Witness". I will try to get some of them and his web address and put it to the forum.
tim

[Wombat]

I have only recently joined the forum and have just found this topic on the Arctic Convoys. I really enjoyed reading through the posts, as there are obviously some very knowledgeable members. Some of the threads I agree with, and others I don’t, so it gives the opportunity to weigh up both sides and come up with an informed conclusion. It’s just like the old times when every one sat round a table and had their say, in the end everyone left knowing far more than when they arrived.

My father was a stoker onboard HMS Kent and served with the ship through out the war, and on the Arctic Convoys. He very rarely spoke about the war and when once asked why he never attended the Remembrance Day Services he answered, “I don’t need to attend a service to remember them; I see them every night when I go to sleep”. It was only as I got older I fully understood what he meant.

On a lighter note, I read the following TRUE story in the newsletter of the Queensland Arctic Convoy Veterans Association, which I am a member of. I have lost the copy in question, so I will have to tell it from memory.

It was a dark stormy night on the convoys, and the ships were being attacked by air and sea. The Destroyers attached to the convoy were hard pressed looking for German U-boats. One ship in particular was in great difficulty and under heavy attack when a British Submarine surfaced near by to give assistance in any way it could.

The Captain of the submarine sent a message to the ship saying “I will stay on the surface as long as I can”. To which the Captain of the ship then sent a reply back to the submarine saying, “So will I”!!

Wombat,
(James).

[herakles]

Nice story James!

We really must start a thread on the topic of quips made in times of great danger. British understatement at its best.

[battlestar]

G'Day All

A great and informative thread, keep it going!:)

I've had the honour to meet several Veterans of the Arctic Convoys, and I know that the White Berets they wore were hard fought. Even now, when I get to see them at the occassional ceremony they still have that 'Thousand yard stare.'

I am sad to say that here in Perth, their numbers are now but few, and their parade colours for the ANZAC Day march have been retired. Those few still take part, their White Berets are very noticable in the march. (Personal note, I knew the lady - and she was - that made the banner in the late 1970's. Her name was Anne Snook, and she was made an honourary member of the WA Chapter. It was in her honour that those few survivors made it to her funeral in 2006.)

Herk, British understatement is part of the Aussie ethos, we know it, and we appreciate it. Do the thread! Could be one of the funniest ones on the forum!

[mik43]

20/20 hindsight and the Discovery Channel is a wonderful thing.........
Mik

[nigelweysom]

i wonder if i could raise a problem that i have regarding the Arctic convoys ,
although my father did not realy talk about the war he did tell a few stories usually when he was drunk , one of these stories was that he was on an Arctic convoy , the comment he made was that they went all the way to Russia and they were not allowed to leave their ship , my problem is i cannot verify this story , According to my research his only ship HMS Whirlwind never went on an Artic convoy , also i saw a history program that lead me to believe that the crews of HMS ships did go ashore in Russia , as far as i am aware he was never in the merchant navy, , one thought that i did have was would it have been possible that he went during his training period and it was not listed on his navy record which i have , any ideas
Nigel

[tim lewin]

it varied from ship to ship and if they had sustained any damage. Some chaps spent far too long ashore, others were turned round just as fast as they could refuel and re-ammunition and back again with the empties!
tim

[nigelweysom]

thanks for that Tim
Nigel

[jonti]

An old mate of mine was Gunnery Officer in HMS Javelin and completed 4 convoys to Murmansk. No one was allowed ashore after their first arrival but things thawed out when Javelin docked 3 more times and very limited shore movement was allowed, but always accompanied by the local constabulary. Rob T

[Benbow]

i wonder if i could raise a problem that i have regarding the Arctic convoys ,
although my father did not realy talk about the war he did tell a few stories usually when he was drunk , one of these stories was that he was on an Arctic convoy , the comment he made was that they went all the way to Russia and they were not allowed to leave their ship , my problem is i cannot verify this story , According to my research his only ship HMS Whirlwind never went on an Artic convoy , also i saw a history program that lead me to believe that the crews of HMS ships did go ashore in Russia , as far as i am aware he was never in the merchant navy, , one thought that i did have was would it have been possible that he went during his training period and it was not listed on his navy record which i have , any ideas
Nigel

Just phoned my dad in the UK from here in the USA . Dad served on HMS Jamaica (1st commission) on the Russian convoys. He is 86 now but conveyed that they use to anchor at place called Polanyi. Murmansk and he cannot remember ever being allowed ashore .

Also he remembered escorting the REVENGE up to Russia. I am trying to save as much info from his navy days on the Artic Convoys. I hope to get over to visit him before Christmas. Dad was onboard the JAMAICA at the Battle of the Barent Sea and also North Cape.

Hope this will assist.

[Chris Howat]

"The ship that torpedoed itself" is the story of HMS Trinidad and her Russian convoy trip which eventually led to her loss. An interesting read and recommended. I remember talking to a survivor and reading his copy.

[nigelweysom]

thanks for that Jonti and Benbow that would seem to confirm the story , i just have to find out how he got there, which is still a big problem
Nigel

[Wombat]

I’d like to share this story about something that happened to my family in 1991.

My wife told me of an article that she had seen in our local Queensland newspaper, about Arctic Convoy Medals that were due to be presented. I knew my father had spent three years as a stoker on HMS Kent during WW2, and that he had been on the Artic Convoys to Russia. HMS Kent was the only ship he served on, and I believe it went to both Murmansk and Archangel.

I telephoned my father and asked him if he had applied for his medal. He told me that he hadn’t, so I asked if he would mind if I applied for it on his behalf, to which he consented.

I contacted our local RSL and they put me in touch with Mr Peter Crowshaw, who was a member of the Arctic Convoy Veterans Association of Australia. He gave me step by step instructions about what I needed to do to claim the medal, and I then wrote to the Russian Embassy in Canberra on behalf of my father, sending all the relevant documents and information.

As you can imagine this was a slow process, and while we were waiting for a reply, I had convinced my father to come to Australia and have his medal presented here, but by the time everything was sorted out, my father had been taken ill, and was advised not to make the trip from the UK to Australia as it would be too much for him.

My father sent a letter, (which we forwarded to the embassy), requesting that his medal be presented to his Grandson, (who he had never seen), on his behalf, as he was unable to make the trip due to illness.

The embassy agreed to the request, and special permission was given for my father’s medal to be presented to our seven year old son by Captain Harold Chesterman, at an official medal presentation ceremony. Mr Harry Simpson, President of the Arctic Veterans Association, presented our son with a White Beret, and Cap Badge, and Mr. Peter Crowshaw presented him with a Blazer Badge and an Arctic Veterans Convoy Plaque bearing the name of my father’s ship, HMS Kent.

There were quite a few medals being presented, and speeches being given, which I am sure you will appreciate was taking most of the day. The sun was shining outside, and like any normal seven year old, there were better things to be doing than sitting still and getting bored. He had already been presented with his Grandfathers medal, so it wasn’t long before we noticed our son had disappeared, he was off looking for mischief. I found him and brought him back to the table. As I sat him down I threatened to put him over my knee if he moved from the chair again. One of the Veterans who had also received his medal, which he was proudly wearing, over heard what I had said. He turned to me with a big smile on his face and said that there couldn’t be many wearing an Arctic Convoy Medal that could be put over their fathers knee for misbehaving!

I have attached the following pictures:

The confirmation letter received from the Russian Embassy. With a photograph of my father and two crew members, on the deck of HMS Kent. (My father is in the centre).

Our son being presented with his Grandfathers medal, by Captain Harold Chesterman, (Centre). Mr. Harry Simpson, (Right). Mr Peter Crowshaw, (Left).

The Newspaper Article following the presentation.

A photograph of my father and three other stokers from the Kent. (My father is bottom left).

White Beret, Badges, & Plaque. (Displayed on our Bulldog).

Wombat,
(James).

[vivian]

Hello James, what a great experience for your family. How nice that you were able to arrange things that way. Does your son remember that day?

best regards
Vivian

[Wombat]

Does your son remember that day?

Hello Vivian,

My son is now a Leftenant in the Australian Defence Force, and "Yes" he remembers it well.

Wombat,
(James).

[jbryce1437]

I’d like to share this story about something that happened to my family in 1991.

My wife told me of an article that she had seen in our local Queensland newspaper, about Arctic Convoy Medals that were due to be presented. I knew my father had spent three years as a stoker on HMS Kent during WW2, and that he had been on the Artic Convoys to Russia. HMS Kent was the only ship he served on, and I believe it went to both Murmansk and Archangel.

I telephoned my father and asked him if he had applied for his medal. He told me that he hadn’t, so I asked if he would mind if I applied for it on his behalf, to which he consented.

I contacted our local RSL and they put me in touch with Mr Peter Crowshaw, who was a member of the Arctic Convoy Veterans Association of Australia. He gave me step by step instructions about what I needed to do to claim the medal, and I then wrote to the Russian Embassy in Canberra on behalf of my father, sending all the relevant documents and information.

As you can imagine this was a slow process, and while we were waiting for a reply, I had convinced my father to come to Australia and have his medal presented here, but by the time everything was sorted out, my father had been taken ill, and was advised not to make the trip from the UK to Australia as it would be too much for him.

My father sent a letter, (which we forwarded to the embassy), requesting that his medal be presented to his Grandson, (who he had never seen), on his behalf, as he was unable to make the trip due to illness.

The embassy agreed to the request, and special permission was given for my father’s medal to be presented to our seven year old son by Captain Harold Chesterman, at an official medal presentation ceremony. Mr Harry Simpson, President of the Arctic Veterans Association, presented our son with a White Beret, and Cap Badge, and Mr. Peter Crowshaw presented him with a Blazer Badge and an Arctic Veterans Convoy Plaque bearing the name of my father’s ship, HMS Kent.

There were quite a few medals being presented, and speeches being given, which I am sure you will appreciate was taking most of the day. The sun was shining outside, and like any normal seven year old, there were better things to be doing than sitting still and getting bored. He had already been presented with his Grandfathers medal, so it wasn’t long before we noticed our son had disappeared, he was off looking for mischief. I found him and brought him back to the table. As I sat him down I threatened to put him over my knee if he moved from the chair again. One of the Veterans who had also received his medal, which he was proudly wearing, over heard what I had said. He turned to me with a big smile on his face and said that there couldn’t be many wearing an Arctic Convoy Medal that could be put over their fathers knee for misbehaving!

I have attached the following pictures:

The confirmation letter received from the Russian Embassy. With a photograph of my father and two crew members, on the deck of HMS Kent. (My father is in the centre).

Our son being presented with his Grandfathers medal, by Captain Harold Chesterman, (Centre). Mr. Harry Simpson, (Right). Mr Peter Crowshaw, (Left).

The Newspaper Article following the presentation.

A photograph of my father and three other stokers from the Kent. (My father is bottom left).

White Beret, Badges, & Plaque. (Displayed on our Bulldog).

Wombat,
(James).

What a great story Wombat. Did your father ever meet his grandson?

[Wombat]

What a great story Wombat. Did your father ever meet his grandson?

Sadly, "No". Photographs were as close as they got before he passed away.
But he was very pleased that our son got this honour on his behalf.

Wombat,
(James).

[jbryce1437]

Thanks for the reply, your father must have been very proud that his grandson accepted the award on his behalf.

[Bee]

Hello all,
I must admit I haven't browsed this thread before...although my late father, Douglas Barrow,had a great deal of respect for the men who braved the elements in these Artic Convoys, as do we.
Anyway, I just thought that you might like to have this included here....I came across it yesterday in our local paper: The Western Australian Saturday, July 25, 2009.....
52271
May we never forget these hardy souls.

Regards,
Bee

[qprdave]

Bee

A very good piece. Thanks for posting

[Wombat]

Thanks Bee,
I hadn't seen this article so I have taken a copy of it.
I noticed in the picture that the two Russian Awards are being worn separate from the other campaign medals. I believe the Queen has sanctioned the 50th Anniversary Medal as a foreign award, allowing it to be worn with other British & commonwealth medals.

Wombat,
James.

[ivorthediver]

Hello all,
I must admit I haven't browsed this thread before...although my late father, Douglas Barrow,had a great deal of respect for the men who braved the elements in these Artic Convoys, as do we.
Anyway, I just thought that you might like to have this included here....I came across it yesterday in our local paper: The Western Australian Saturday, July 25, 2009.....
52271
May we never forget these hardy souls.

Regards,
Bee

Hi Bee very interesting article, thanks for posting it.

My Uncle David was one of these souls as a !st class Stoker on HMS PUFFIN and sadly although I never had the chance to speak to him about it his sons have told me the odd snippits of information about the Artic Runs and the severe conditions endured
His wife told me that he would come home on leave as and when and was a nervous wreck when they finished always jumping up and never sat still for long .

[Bee]

Hello men,
Glad you liked the article, these people deserve to be remembered. Did you see the ice on that ship ?...I think that alone (the extreme cold) would have been torture enough in itself ( it's no wonder they suffered side effects when home.)
Wombat, I'm glad that you managed to get the medals for your father (you and your family, esp. your son, must be very proud to have them), and Ivor, I hope that your Uncle got the same recognition. It's only a relatively small thing...but it means/meant so much to them and their families.
Regards,
Bee

[ivorthediver]

Hello men,
Glad you liked the article, these people deserve to be remembered. Did you see the ice on that ship ?...I think that alone (the extreme cold) would have been torture enough in itself ( it's no wonder they suffered side effects when home.)
Wombat, I'm glad that you managed to get the medals for your father (you and your family, esp. your son, must be very proud to have them), and Ivor, I hope that your Uncle got the same recognition. It's only a relatively small thing...but it means/meant so much to them and their families.
Regards,
Bee

Sadly he crossed the Bar about ten years ago now and I am not sure that his surviving relatives could handle that or how to go about claiming it .

[qprdave]

Sadly he crossed the Bar about ten years ago now and I am not sure that his surviving relatives could handle that or how to go about claiming it .
Ivor just in case they are interested

http://www.britishlegion-derbyshire.org.uk/Veterans_The_Arctic_Emblem.htm

[ivorthediver]

Ivor just in case they are interested

http://www.britishlegion-derbyshire.org.uk/Veterans_The_Arctic_Emblem.htm


Thank you for your kindness Dave ,...I will forward it to his daughter

Regards Ivor

[qprdave]

Anytime Ivor

I would do anything in my power to help get what the brave men and women who took part in the War deserve

[ivorthediver]

Thank you very much Dave .....and sentiments I share myself I might add

..God knows they gave enough ....and got little in return from the Government but the admiration of the friends and relatives ....that survived the Air Raids

[ivorthediver]

Dave I sent details of the information you gave me to My Uncle Davids Daughter who seems keen to follow it up .....so thank you again for your help there
Regards Ivor

[Bee]

Hi Ivor,
I do hope that your Uncle David's family are able to recieve the Arctic Emblem that he earned. I just had a look at the link qprDave sent and noticed that it said that although next of kin can apply for the Arctic Emblem, (as in the case of other campaign medals), they are not permitted to wear it/them.
Could someone please enlighten me as to the proper, respectful way to display such...as I was under the impression that only the veterans could wear their medals on the left side of their chest, or their representative kin (Wife, son etc) could wear the medals on the right side???
My Husband reckons that no one should wear another person's earned medals (regardless of what side they're worn on.) So, does anyone know the right etiquette here please?
Thankyou,
Bee

[alanbenn]

Bee, we have touched on the subject of medal wearing before on the forum and the answers caused quite a debate.

Some agree and some don't, but with so many of our war heroes 'crossing the bar' it is becoming more commonplace to see relatives wearing the medals on the right side as a mark of respect.

Personally I'm all in favour of it as it keeps the memory of these gallant men and women alive......and there doesn't seem to be objections from any high ranking staff from any of the armed forces so we can only assume they are in favour of it too.

A couple of years back 12 members of our family went to Arnhem where my wifes father fought during the war, he revisted every year before he died, one of his sons wore his medals at the cemetery service.

Luckily we had a long chat with the then Chief of staff General Sir Michael Jackson, he was very moved at so many of us being there and wearing the medals, he also wrote an acknowledement letter for the memorial album I was producing for my late father-in-law.

So if the head of the Army liked the idea then why not?

Regards
Alan

[Bee]

Thankyou for that answer Alan,
As I said, I've always thought that family members could wear their ancestors war medals at memorial services (as a mark of respect, providing they are worn on the right side.)

It was just the quote below (from the link qprDave provided) that got us, thinking about, and debating, it. (I know my father would have been quite happy for one of his family to wear his medals, after he "crossed the bar")..which they have done on a couple of occasions since his passing. However, I'm sure Dad would come back and haunt us if anyone wore them over their heart...that indeed was only for the earner of said medals - as far as he (and his mates) were concerned.
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ............................................

"In common with the issue of campaign medals, the surviving next of kin may claim the Emblem on behalf of Arctic veterans who have died, but they will not be entitled to wear it." :confused:

Regards,
Bee

[Francis Stanley]

As posted in the medals discussion, I applied for the emblem on my fathers behalf I received it very soon afterwards (the process is very straight forward) and have displayed it with his medals.

[Bee]

That's great Francis,
Your Dad would be very happy with you :) Let's hope Ivor's Uncle David's medal comes through too...they really earned those!
Regards,
Bee

[ivorthediver]

That's great Francis,
Your Dad would be very happy with you :) Let's hope Ivor's Uncle David's medal comes through too...they really earned those!
Regards,
Bee


Thanks to you and Dave the information has been printed and forwarded to my cousin... who has told me that she will be requesting his medal for her Mum.

[Bee]

That's good news Ivor, just goes to show...all it needs is a pebble plopped into a pond to set up the ripples...
It's good to know that sometimes things posted help others...really makes it worth the effort :) What do they say...what goes around comes around :) That's what's so great about this forum.

Regards,
Bee

[ivorthediver]

That's good news Ivor, just goes to show...all it needs is a pebble plopped into a pond to set up the ripples...
It's good to know that sometimes things posted help others...really makes it worth the effort :) What do they say...what goes around comes around :) That's what's so great about this forum.

Regards,
Bee


Every now and then in life one utters a profound comment that most are oblivious to ......and ...to others speaks volumes .....this is one such situation Dearest Bee and I can think of no one better to utter it

[steve roberts]

I had posted on "Battle of Atlantic" thread about an old Gentleman who had spent the was on the Rescue Ship ZAMALEK.He was an ex POSBA,anyway he stated that his worst convoy was PQ17.Before the order to "Scatter" He thought it would be a waste of time to go after survivors in the water who were not in boats,as they would be dead before they got there.His biggest regret was tht because Rescue Ships flew the Blue ensign,they had to follow the escort commanders orders and leave the merchant ships to their fate as the escorts turned back to join the larger shadowing escort group. Steve.

[JarrowDave]

My cousin's husband was a stoker in the MN before and during WWII, he sailed on Atlantic and Arctic convoys. I remember him telling me that no ship he sailed on was ever damaged. He also told me that once this little item of news began to circulate among the men on the South Shields Pool, his arrival at the pool, when his leaves were up, would be greeted by a queue of men forming behind him to sign on to a "Lucky" ship.

There is a book entitled "Voyage Not Complete" by another local seaman of the day. This is an autobiography written by one of the MN's self confessed "bad boys". It includes an account of his stay in Northern Russia, when he jumped ship. Well worth a read!

Major reasons to run convoys north to Murmansk than round the Cape to Persia may well have been:-
1) The distances involved.
2) The Indian Ocean was not secure, once Singapore had fallen.

JD

[Ednamay]

it varied from ship to ship and if they had sustained any damage. Some chaps spent far too long ashore, others were turned round just as fast as they could refuel and re-ammunition and back again with the empties!
tim

My brother, Fleet Air Arm, was reluctant to talk about his hair-raising experiences during the war but he did mention the fact that on one trip his carrier was transporting aircraft to Russia, so they went ashore, presumably with the aircraft, to give instruction. I think it was Murmansk (might have been Archangel) but the Russkies were having trouble with their ice-breakers and departure was delayed, so he and his fellow FAAs had a chance to have a look over the Russians own aircraft.

Does this ring any bells? Has it been recorded anywhere?

Edna

[doug.birch]

Some of us are alive and kicking, and to prove it here is a photo taken on the Anzac Day marchin Adelaide 25/4/10. Doug. Birch.77339

[tim lewin]

Dear Steve, the wartime journalist Godfrey Wynn was aboard the Zamalek during PQ17 and wrote a book soon after the war of his experiences. I have a copy but i am sure it might be available from re-sellers; he was a good writer and this is one of the few first-hand accounts from a not Naval perspective.
tim

[steve roberts]

Hi Tim.Thank you very much for that information about Zamaleck.If you can let me know the title,I'm sure it will be available through Amazon books or ABE books.They are very good at finding out of print books (Used) for sale.I would like to buy the old lad down the club a copy as his 95Th birthday is in July.
Many Regards Steve.

[tim lewin]

Kind thought; its called
PQ17
A story of a ship

Godfrey Winn

first published May 1947, reprinted Nov 1947, Feb 1948, August 1948 and again in 1953
originally published by Hutchinson & Co

Good luck
tim

[steve roberts]

Hi Tim.Thank you for getting back so quickly with all that detailed information.I will be off shortly to see if it is available on the companies I mentioned.If not I am in contact with one or two people who are very good old book finders.Thanks once again.
Many Regards Steve.

[doug.birch]

Hi to all on Arctic covoys post, there is another Russian medal being presented, it is the 65Th.annv. one some were issued in Scotland and some on the BELFAST. It will be some time before they reach us in Australia. this must shame the British Goverment for the way they treated the Arctic Veterans.Doug.BIRCH.

[Benbow]

My father served in/on the Jamaica on the Russian Convoys; Battle of the Barrents Sea and Battle of North Cape ; still alive and kicking at 87 .:)

[tim lewin]

Dear Doug,
If you look elsewhere on the forum (HMS Belfast thread) you will find pictures of the chaps who recieved the comemorative medal (65th anniversary of Victory in Europe) presented by the Russians to a representative selection of veterans with associationto Belfast; at the same time they presented the ship with a special citation from President Medvedev as comander in chief of Russian forces in recognition of her being "the Last Witness" to the ships that took part in the convoys. The name project "Last Witness" refers to the project devised to raise the funbding to reconstruct the masts of the ship, the current ones being beyond restoration due to rust and corrosion. The Russians have extremely kindly agreed to construct and errect both masts which was covered in the ceremony of the 24th. They will be fabricated in the naval yard at St. Petersburg and errected in September. On Friday this week there will be a ceremony in the yard to comemorate the commencement of the work but unfortunately i will not be able to go due to the clash with the election.
Hope this helps
tim

[doug.birch]

Hi Tim, thanks for that information about the presentation ofthe 65Th. medal, but what about the presentation in Scotland. I did read about the generous gesture of the Russian of the restorations to the Belfast. Good luck with the elections. Regards Doug.Birch

[tim lewin]

Dear Doug, the Scotland presentations were a different initiative unrelated to my own small efforts I am afraid but I am in contact with the Russian side on a fairly regular basis so if you like I can ask directly what the situation is in a global sense and try to get you a definitive reply (thru me).
Were you one of the members of the club that had "the Arctic Lookout" as its magasine? this was the one which my late father and Ludo Kennedy were joint patrons of. I have rather lost touch with the members since those days althougfh at one time there was some discussion about mounting a lump of Kola Granite on a plinth alongside HMS Belfast (on the riverside walkway) with a suitable plaque comemorating all of the Arctic Veterans. There are lots of worthy ideas like this that come up from time to time but only a few come off as the very long hard slog to get something completed tends to put off most people.
Good luck
tim

[steve roberts]

Hi Tim.Thanks to your information,I have got a copy of PQ17 A story of a ship from Amazon books.You will not believe the price ,10p plus postage.My old gentleman down the club will be obviously delighted with it.It's used but in excellent condition.I will certainly have a read before I give it to him.I can not thank you enough.You are like your Father.A true Gentleman.
Many Regards Steve.

[derekw]

Hi to all on Arctic covoys post, there is another Russian medal being presented, it is the 65Th.annv. one some were issued in Scotland and some on the BELFAST. It will be some time before they reach us in Australia. this must shame the British Goverment for the way they treated the Arctic Veterans.Doug.BIRCH.

Hi . The New Zealand presentations of the 65th medal are to take place this month . The first ones in Wellington tomorrow , May 7th ., in fact , prior to a commemoration service at the plaque on the waterfront . Derekw

[tim lewin]

Thanks Steve, you will enjoy it; he takes no sides or apportions any blame, it is therefore a true account of "being there" and being incredibly lucky to reach the destination. My father was sort of there as was Belfast, they were part of the remote covering force (He was in Ashanti having joined in Jan that year). They were supposed to rush forward as the escorts were supposed to consolidate with them.
Another good book wel owrth a read is that from Capt. Jack Broome who was comanding the escorts and took much of the blame for the chaos, it blighted his life thereafter, of course he was not to blame at all. I don't have the book but read it at home as a teenager so it was years ago.
all best
tim

[derekw]

Hi . The New Zealand presentations of the 65th medal are to take place this month . The first ones in Wellington tomorrow , May 7th ., in fact , prior to a commemoration service at the plaque on the waterfront . Derekw

Belay the last pipe . The first presentations took place in Christchurch last Wednesday ( 5th ) when the Ambassador and the President of the Russian Convoy Club attended . Auckland and other areas will follow shortly . Derek

[doug.birch]

Thanks Tim for the extra information concerning the 65Th. medal, no I was not connected with that club you mentioned, I only joined the Arctic Convoy Veterans when I came to Australia. I would very much like you to make inquiries about the presentation of the medal to those of us in Australia.
Regards Doug.

[steve roberts]

Hi Tim.Have received the book for my old gentleman.What a lovely surprise it will be for him.I take it the Captain Jack Broome book you refer to is "Make a signal"? If so I have also ordered it,as I believe it makes extended reference to PQ17.
Many Regards Steve.

[tim lewin]

I cannot remember the title but he did more than one book, i remember that he was an accomplished cartoonist and often used to reinforce his points with these. Well done with the Godfrey Winn book, it worth a read yourself first, or even another copy!

Doug, i will check this out for you later this week, today is a national holiday in Russia; they had a major ceremony for Victory Day in HMS Belfast yesterday. My late father was the first patron of the Russian Convoy Club, together with Ludo Kennedy, they both served in Tribal destroyers and had a long friendship as a result. The club dissolved some time ago when the old chaps began to find the organisation too arduous.
all best
tim

[barnsey]

[QUOTE=tim lewin;1951]Whilst on the subject of statistics and the horrors of Arctic convoys let me quote you here the forword to Richard Woodman's book written a few years ago by dear old dad who also spent 2 years on the Kola run in Ashanti.

"In the history of the Second World War the term Arctic Convoy conjures up an image of endurance against great odds, of battles fought in the Arctic night in which ice, snow, and high winds added to the horrors of war. It was indeed conditions in the arctic which set the convoys to Russia apart from other theatres of war. In winter seamen fought a continual battle against gales and ice in almost perpetual darkness; in summer the sun rarely set and there was no respite from the threat or reality of attack. In fact the Arctic convoys were amazingly successful. Of a total of forty outward convoys comprising 811 ships only 68 were sunk. Those that got through delivered great quantities of tanks, aircraft, ammunition, and other essential war materials which made a significant contribution to Russia's role in the war."

Just come across this thread .... its 2010 now !!! never mind Convoys are of great interest to me ....

The statement and statistics in the quote Tim has put up are very good. At the start of the thread though the figures are not so good.

Arnold Hague's book The Allied Convoy System 1939-1945 gives accurate figures .... these are the infamous PQ17 figures but you have to be carefull in quoting them. There were 39 vessels set out of which 16 ships* ( *Hague does say 24 were lost but does not specify where the other 8 were sunk) were lost with 56 killed. Of the 16 ships lost 5 ships had no loss of life. The total tons of cargo lost was 75,000 tons. Technically the Convoy was a success as there were only 3 ships lost when 'In Convoy", the rest were lost once the convoy was dispersed and could really be classed as 'Independants" easy pickings.

Of all the Russian convoys there were 848 ships sailing Eastwards of which 65 were lost there were 735 ships sailed Westwards of which 40 were lost. So in all the Russian convoys there were 1583 ships of which 105 were lost thats ...6.6% from all causes.

Generally, in round figures it is quoted that the U-boats sank 5% of the Atlantic Convoys.......

Its a very interesting subject now we know all the details ....:rolleyes:

[barb43]

I don't think you have all the information to form that opinion. My dad served on HMS Glasgow and HMS Wivern both of which played their part in the Russion Convoys, and the supplies were not only for the Russians, plenty of it came down for home use. These ships were also used to provide cover for home fleets, to search and destroy German Blockade runners (see WW2 Peoples War - sinking of Regensberg) which was on passage from Japan in Denmark Strait. They also intercepted blockade runners and protected shipping in SW approaches. Provided Ocean Escort for ships of 1st minelaying Squadron during minelay in Northern Barrage (see Operation SN22A Naval Staff History (Mining).
My dad has been presented with and proudly wears serveral medals awarded from the Russians. some of the presentations have been made here in Adelaide South Australia. I will be posting my Dad's Naval history as I complete the search of the ships he was on.:o

[barnsey]

Sorry Barb 43 ... don't follow the essence of your post ... that is if you were referring to my post?

I was talking purely about the Merchant ships.

[Mike J Kirlew]

Could any one tell me the name of the Australian destroyer that was loaned to the RN for escort duties with the Russian Convoys please?

On the same line are there any members of the Arctic Convoy Verteran's Association in this group?

regards Mike Kirlew

[tim lewin]

I think you will find Doug Birch is a member; personally I am in contact with a few of them...
tim

[tjstoneman]

Mike,
Not sure about an Australian destroyer as a convoy escort (post #135): HMAS Norman took a trades union delegation to Archangel and then did an anti-submarine patrol before returning - see http://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Chrono-10DD-45N-Norman.htm.
tim

[Hugh Williams]

Hi Y'all,

An interesting thread, to which I would draw everybody's attention to a book titled 'Last Call For HMS Edinburgh (A Story of The Russian Convoys)' by Frank Pearce, pub Collins, 1982. ISBN 0 00 216677 1. This describes the sheer horror of working the convoys and being ashore with the Russians (not necessarily much different from working the convoys) whilst HMS Edinburgh was awaiting repair.

Regards,

Hugh Williams

[tim lewin]

indeed an excellent eye witness account almost but so are his other books about HMS Trinidad, THE SHIP THAT TORPEDOED HERSELF, and RUNNING THE GAUNTLET,
all well worth finding
tim

[Teuchter]

My Dad was an AB in the Merchant Navy before, during and after ww2 and did one trip on the Russian Convoys - he did not think much of the reception they recieved from the Russians in Murmansk

After that trip he was "drafted" to the RFA Robert Dundas where he spent the rest of the war and a few years after


Robert Dundas

[CE REYC]

A neighbour of mine George Murray was a young crewman on the liberty ship Samcebu on the Russian convoy run. He received a commemorative medal just last year from the Russian Government. Although frail he walks his little dog daily from his cottage which is named for his ship.

[Ken W]

Just noticed Post; would be interested in more info on Russian 65th Medal.

Members of this Forum know how well served we in Australia are by those far away pollies and factotums.

Anzac Day some years ago chap came up, said, "Oh, Atlantic Star. Did you do any Ruski runs?" I replied, " I did one."
Pointing to his odd extras, he said, "Listen mate, your entitled to the Artcic Emblem. Just got mine, also you get a Russian medal like this."
"Well, mine was in '45, the last real convoy. Dont know if entitled."
"Course you are, have a go."

So thats how, after a lot of dribble, this character on Anzac Day now sports the Emblem plus 45th Anni Medal - and gets asked, 'Whats that garbage mate?"

[CE REYC]

I am almost sure there was more info on our local newsletter. I will have a dig and post whatever I find.

[jainso31]

I applied for,and got the Arctic Star emblem and the Russian 65th Anniversary medal for my father, as his NOK last year. After finding outwhat
his war was like -he should have had a barrowful!


jainso31

[AndrewRH]

Hello everyone,

I'm a volunteer with my town's official website; and we have in our town of Whitchurch, Hampshire a former mayor, Roy Dykes, now 92, who was a veteran of the Arctic convoys, and is one of the lead campaigners to have an 'Arctic Star' medal awarded to veterans of these convoy missions to Russia.

My son had a school project to do research on a local newspaper story - and right at that time, the Basingstoke Gazette ran a feature on Roy. Since he lives just up the street from us, I made arrangements through our current mayor to pay him a visit. I videoed my son interviewing Roy about his missions; and the campaign to get an Arctic Star.

And, this afternoon, Roy popped to our place to give me his feedback on last Tuesday's debate in Westminster (http://tinyurl.com/ArcticStarDebate) - suffice to say he wasn't impressed with the minister's attitude and answers. He also met my mother-in-law who is visiting us from St.Petersburg. She was a young child back in World War II and was blockaded there by the Germans. We all shared a lovely Russian tea together!

Roy also mentioned that a major national newspaper is getting 50 Arctic convoy veterans together in London this week. I presume they'll be picking up his campaign at a national level.

Video interviews of Roy...

Whitchurch.org.uk: Campaign for Arctic Star convoy medal (http://whitchurch.org.uk/2011/12/campaign-for-arctic-starconvoy-medal/)


On that page are some links to other articles, to a facebook group (https://www.facebook.com/groups/143022925800468/#!/groups/143022925800468/), and an ePetition (http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/5211).

~Andrew~
A volunteer helping with http://Whitchurch.org.uk

[Hugh Williams]

e-Petition duly signed.

[tim lewin]

Dear All,
Just back from moscow where i showed our film of HMS Belfast in her Arctic convoy role and the Russian replacement of the masts in recognition thereof; the reception was exceptional and warmer than words can describe. I will post the report on the show on the HMS Belfast thread in the morning with several pics of Russian veterans including some of those who participated in the convoys in Russian escorts, their own and lend-lease. Here is one to keep thinks going, this report belongs with the Belfast thread, if you have not seen the film you will find the link there.
tim

[katie]

Hi - this is my first post here. I just signed the e-petition also. My Dad is in a nursing home now, was 90 on Christmas Day and served as A/B on the minesweeper HMS Halcyon up on the arctic convoys from him joining the RN in July 1941. His first convoy......PQ17. What a nightmare for a young man of 20 years old!!
I would like to see the Arctic medal awarded to the surviving Arctic veterans - surely there cannot be that many of them left that it would break the economy.

Katie

[tim lewin]

Dear All, I have mentioned this before but with the passage of time and the lengthening of the number of messages in this thread there is no harm in mentioning again.

The Russians celebrate Victory Day with much more enthusiasm than we do, for the past several years a splendid chap called Eugene Kasevin has worked with the IWM to hold a major event each May 9th, to comemorate Victory Day, onboard HMS BELFAST, this includes as many veterans as can make the trip, a Royal presence, and a group of Russian veterans, this year he plans to include at least two military bands to march/play on the shore-side, i think he is trying to organise that one of them will be American but more on tis later. I make a small contribution to the organisation but the full credit is his, and of course the first-rate team in the ship. Last year my bit icluded persuading the RN from HMS Collingwood to participate with their saluting cannon and a 9-gun salute to the memory of those grim days.

If any of you have a veteran relative who would like to join with a carer, please let me know through the Forum and i will pass the detaile to Eugene. There are pics somewhere on the forum of last year's bash..

All best, Tim

[D01Caprice]

I thought it was the good old US of A that won the war for us and surely it was their nuclear weapons that were used on Japan?
Only Americans think that - and they get their history lessons from Hollywood.

Atomic weapons dropped on Japan were the result of close cooperation between the US, UK and Canada. Were Niels Bohr or Enrico Fermi American? Von Neuman? Einstein? The answer is an emphatic NO. The US has always bought in foreign expertise including such inhuman characters as von Braun. He was smuggled out of Germany unknown to their allies to mastermind their rocketry programme. I think the UK would have hung him on account of his complicity in war crimes if we had got our hands on him.

Rather than their broadcasting of how they won the war I'd be more at peace with them if they were open and honest about some the total cockups they were guilty of. In all my experiences of working with American civilians after leaving the Service the phrase from a song every in the Andrew knew, 'bloody good kids in harbour' came to mind.

[ap1]

Hi - this is my first post here. I just signed the e-petition also. My Dad is in a nursing home now, was 90 on Christmas Day and served as A/B on the minesweeper HMS Halcyon up on the arctic convoys from him joining the RN in July 1941. His first convoy......PQ17. What a nightmare for a young man of 20 years old!!
I would like to see the Arctic medal awarded to the surviving Arctic veterans - surely there cannot be that many of them left that it would break the economy.

Katie

Welcome to the forum, Katie.

I'm sure the good fellows on this forum will hear your request, and steer you in the right direction. Your Dad deserves it.

I, like all the people here, wish you all the very best.

[jainso31]

Your father will be entitled to the Arctic Star Emblem-just type the A S E(in full) into Google and you will find the site dealing with claims.You will need name of ship(s) and dates-as he was on PQ17 that date will be sufficient.
The authurities know all the qualifying ships.Full name, rank and service number.
PS Any difficulty PM me.I have located the site for you and the link is below my user name
jainso31
http://www.royalnavalmuseum.org/new_news_ArcticStarhtm.htm

[Robert Onslow]

At the Arctic Convoy exhibition at Greenwich I was showing my children the pictures and the badge of 'Ashanti', of which my grandfather, Dicky Onslow, was captain from May 1941 to December 1942.

We noticed another father with his boy, also looking keenly at the 'Ashanti' display. We introduced ourselves each other. He was Ian Pinnegar, whose father was stoker on the Ashanti at the time.

We swapped email addresses, and I said that I would type in an extract about Dicky and the Ashanti from the (unpublished) book "The Onslows and the Navy" by Captain Robert Franks R.N., and send it to him.

I thought the forum might be interested as well, so I attach the extract.

I am hoping that Ian (who mentioned the forum to me) will join the forum too and perhaps share some of his father's recollections of his time on the 'Ashanti'.

What with you, Tim, already on the forum I see, we have got the start of a pretty good crew list, haven't we?

Robert

[johnny07]

WW2 Russian Arctic Convoys. Were they worth all the losses of both life and ships?

Russian convoys.

Between 1941-1945, 42 Eastbound convoys, loaded to their plimsol lines with all types of war supplies, fought both the enemy and the appaling weather to deliver their valuable cargoes. Returning Westward convoys numbered 36.

Russian convoys resulted in about 3,000 deaths of both merchant and navy sailors.

Total tonnage delivered to Russia.

East bound convoys delivered about 4 million tons of the necessities of war, including 5,000 tanks and 7,000 + aircraft. Having survived the hazardous voyage through Arctic waters, in many cases the weather was a bigger threat or at least equal to that posed by both the German Navy and its U-Boats, plus the Luftwaffe, these ships generally empty had to again flog through 3,000 miles of dreadful weather to return to home ports.

One must pose, was it all worth the loss of so many Merchant and Royal Navy sailors and could the equipment, a mere drop in the bucket compared to the vast quantity needed by Soviet forces, have been better used elsewhere by the Allies?

PQ-17 alone

Allied losses were horrendous, two thirds of the convoy lost, 24 ships sunk, 8 by U- Boats, 8 by Aircraft, and 8 damaged by Aircraft, then finally sunk by the U-Boats.

Lost Equipment from PQ-17 alone.

210 Bombers, 430 Tanks, 3350 Vehicles, and approximately 100,000 tons of Munitions.

German losses.
Only 6 Aircraft.

Deaths of Allied Seamen.
153 Allied Seamen died from P.Q.17, but not one Naval Officer or Rating were killed in their defence.

Therefore were the Arctic Convoys Worthwhile?
No doubt the 4 million tons delivered to Stalin's Russia via the Arctic Convoys played their small part in the defeat of the German invasion, but it is difficult to find any Soviet acknowledgement of this fact or any thanks for the sacrifices made by the men of the Merchant Marine, Royal Navy and US Navy to deliver the goods.

This gesture to the Soviet Union of running the gauntlet of German forces and dreadful weather conditions may well have shortened the war in Europe if this vast amount of war material had been applied elsewhere, and had not been delivered to a rather ungrateful country ruled by the Dictator Stalin.

Post war the former Allies and Russia would face up to a long period of the Cold War, whilst Russia occupied a great deal of central and the eastern part of Europe.

In the photo below, the ammunition ship Mary Luckenback explodes during an air attack on Arctic Convoy PQ18, September 14, 1942.

Allied Warship Losses:

Cruisers Edinburgh, Trinidad, destroyers Achates, Hardy, Mahratta, Matabele, Punjabi, Sokrushitelny, Somali, sloops Kite, Lark, Lapwing, frigate Goodall, corvettes Bluebell, Denbigh Castle, Tunsberg Castle, minesweepers Bramble, Gossamer, Leda and Niger, submarine P 551 (Jastrzab), armed whaler Shera.


For all details of losses see this site. Fantastic.
http://www.warsailors.com/convoys/arctic.html#alliedlosses


My thoughts on this have always been despite the tragic losses, if we had not supplied the Russians, they would not have defeated the Germans and ultimately the allies would not have won the war.

[The War Writer]

Hi, this is my first post. I am a writer interested in any stories from surviving seamen and/or their relatives about everyday life and their duties during the Artic Convoys. I am hoping that publishing new material and any photos will help the cause in getting the heroes the recognition and medals they deserve.
I apologise for interrupting this post but if anyone has any stories/photos/blogs/website links or articles that will help paint a real picture of life at sea and at home including family life and contacting home (if it was possible in anyway) to reply or email me at michael.borrelli@hotmail.com. I want to do the heroes justice by painting a fair and real picture. Many thanks in advance.

[johnny07]

Michael,
Have you seen a DVD from the Royal navy time capsules series part 7
By Roland R Smith. It's called Hazards of Russian Convoys. If you do'nt have it I'll get one burnt. John.

[The War Writer]

Hi Johnny. Sorry for the delay. I have not seen that DVD. To be honest I'm at the very beginning of what seems like a lot of research to get through and people to find. I have been given some links but would love to see that Dvd. If it's for sale on Amazon I can always buy it. If you are willing to burn a copy for me that would be fantastic! I'm waiting for a repeat of the artic convoy program on Yesterday chanel on 30th March at 11am I believe.

[tim lewin]

if you wait a few weeks my DVD plus bonus material about the project to replace the masts of HMS Belfast, done by the Russians in memory of the Arctic Convoys, will be ready for release, has archive footage and interviews. Send me a private message with your contect details and i will donate you a copy; if you look at the Belfast thread you will find loads of pics and details.
good luck
tim

[derek s.langsdon]

So glad to see our Russian-Arctic convoys thread continuing so busilly alive again---
Jim always ends his postings with "Always on the Lookout"--so am I--for anything connected to my father's HMS "Northern Wave" (Armed trawler) on which he served( RDF/RADAR) from June 1942 through March 1943.
I was grateful for much info from members when I first joined WNSF a year ago and am still guilty of not posting my photo of some of the "Wave's" crew,including my father, around a survivor's bedside in Murmansk hospital-(I have still not yet mastered the working of my scanner) !

derek-L/dsl

[The War Writer]

Hi Derek,

You should definately post the images I would like to see them as I am sure many would. Also, does anybody know if communication of any kind was possible from the arctic convoys to back home? For example those that dropped off supplies in Russia, were they able to post letters (air mail), telegram etc or was there no way of contacting home?

If any body has any stories relating to the arcitc convoys I would love to hear them.

[Janet Lowe]

My step father Lawrence Scotchbrook died last Friday 6th April aged 89 I believe he was the last Arctic Convoy survivor in Western Australia. His funeral is 1.30 pm WA time at the Bowra and O'dea chapel in Mandurah. After the war he joined the Fire Brigade and rose through the ranks to become a senior officer inthe LFB.

Regards

[DocDave]

I believe I have seen photographs of knocked out American light tanks on the eastern front, so the Russians did use them - hell, in 1941 they were that desperate to stop the Germans they put convicts armed with 1860's rifles in the way. And we weren't in a position to give the Russians our best stuff anyway. In the long run it was probably the trucks and the half tracks that were more significant - and the political gesture that we were seen to be supporting an ally was crucial. The bravery of the guys who fought to get the stuff to Russia is truely humbling.

[Jamespat]

Hi, I have just recently joined. My father was also on arctic convoys on HMS
Cumberland. I very was interested in your experience with the medals. My father died in 1979, and before that most of his war photographs were lost in the Brisbane flood. I am a little confused I have heard about the Arctic Emblem but not about the Russian medals. I notice you live in Queensland as do I, can you tell me who to contact to find out if these medals can be claimed by the family postumously as I would love to give it my Brother for his son. Thanks Wombat.

[jainso31]

Jamespat -below is a link to- "How to apply for the Arctic Star Emblem"-Good Luck. Russian Convoy Medals were issued some time ago and I doubt whether they would be replaced by the Russian authorities-no harm in trying though via writing to the Russian Consulate.The second link will give you information about the Russian Convoy Medal-40th Anniversary issue

jainso31
http://www.royalnavalmuseum.org/new_news_ArcticStarhtm.htm
http://www.awardmedals.com/russian-convoy-medal-p-543.html

[Wombat]

Jamespat -below is a link to- "How to apply for the Arctic Star Emblem"-Good Luck. Russian Convoy Medals were issued some time ago and I doubt whether they would be replaced by the Russian authorities-no harm in trying though via writing to the Russian Consulate.The second link will give you information about the Russian Convoy Medal-40th Anniversary issue

jainso31
http://www.royalnavalmuseum.org/new_news_ArcticStarhtm.htm
http://www.awardmedals.com/russian-convoy-medal-p-543.html

Hello,

Sorry for the delay, I have only just found your message.

Initially I wrote to the Russian Embassy in Canberra, and they got approval from the Kremlin for the medal to be presented to my son on behalf of his Grandfather.
However there is an Arctic Convoy Veterans Association that is very helpful, and I had a lot of dealings with my local branch in Queensland (Peter Shawcross at Redcliffe). I will find their address for you from their newsletter; maybe they can help or at least advise a shorter rout.
I'll get back to you soon.

Wombat,
James.

[jainso31]

Hi James glad to hear from you-thought you had "drooped off the radar"-pleased to hear that you are making some progress and do please let me know either through the thread or by PM how you ultimately fare.
Regards

jainso31