The White Fleet and Australia

[herakles]

The so called "White Fleet" was a large flotilla of American warships that made a round the world voyage between 1907 and 1909. It consisted of:

BATTLESHIPS LENGTH DRAUGHT OFFICERS MEN

CONNECTICUT 450' 24' 6" 41 815

KANSAS 450' 24' 6" 41 815

LOUISIANA 450' 24' 6" 41 815

VERMONT 450' 24' 6" 41 815

GEORGIA 435' 23' 9" 40 772

VIRGINIA 435' 23' 9" 40 772

NEW JERSEY 435' 23' 9" 40 772

RHODE ISLAND 435' 23' 9" 40 772

MINNESOTA 450' 24' 6" 41 815

OHIO 388' 23' 7" 41 628

MAINE 388' 24' 3" 36 614

MISSOURI 388' 23' 8" 40 612

ALABAMA 368' 23' 8" 34 647

ILLINOIS 380' 24' 0" 34 647

KENTUCKY 368' 23' 10" 35 616

KEARSARGE 368' 23' 10" 39 618

FLEET AUXILIARIES CULGOA, GLACIER, RELIEF, PANTHER, YANKTON, AJAX

The trip was arranged by Theodore Roosevelt to demonstrate that the USA was now a significant world naval power. Especially at a time when the Japanese had demonstrated that they had a powerful navy. It was called the White Fleet as the ships were all painted white.

The Australian Prime Minister Alfed Deakin had specifically invited the fleet to Australia. An invitation that irritated the British Govt. considerably. Deakin used his column in the London Morning Post to mention that Australians had 'never seen a single British battleship in these waters'. Now sixteen such vessels were expected all at once--from America. The sight of them, Deakin wrote, 'may well awaken fresh emotions'.

And it most certainly did. There were huge welcomes in Sydney, Melbourne and Albany. And some inland towns like Bendigo.

At this site: http://www.greatwhitefleet.info/GWF_Visits_Sydney.html there are many fine examples of memorabilia of the event.

It wasn't all pleasant however. There was concern that some of the American boats had black men aboard. This at a time when the Australian "White Australia" policy was firmly in place.

At one dinner, Australia's Defence Minister, Mr Ewing said in part:

'When you go home and they ask you where you have been, don't tell them that you have been in Australia. Say it was a white man's country (prolonged cheers). Tell them that we look to Britons, Americans and Australians to people this white country (loud cheers). It will take all we can do and all you can do to accomplish this, and we will have to fight together in any fight that comes (tremendous cheering)'. Earlier in Sydney, the Mayor there had told the US visitors 'You will be helping us to keep an eye on the yellow man'.

Later, the Australian Govt. expressed intense anger that the British were allied with Japan. In fact Japanese warships helped escort the first Australian troop convoy to Egypt in 1914. How right this turned out to be as events in WW2 so ably demonstrated.

But it was only anger. At the outbreak of WW1, the then Prime Minister said that Australia would help defend the Mother Country "to the last shilling".

There is an important ramification of this visit. For the first time, Australians started to think of the USA as a major international force and so the first link with the USA was cemented. One of the conclusions after WW2 was the realisation in Australia that Britain could not help defend the country. And so Australia turned to the USA for support. The ANZAAS treaty was the first formal link made. Today Britain is irrelevant to Australia and the link with the USA very strong.

[The Sailor]

All you say is true Herk, but Australia didn't want Britain to be irrelevant, we wanted to keep our British heritage and still do.
Debate raged here from the Irish socialists, mainly about getting our own flag. They failed and the Jack on the corner stayed mainly because underneath all the multicultural veneer, Australians still remember who came out to cut this country out with an axe. They still remember with pride which navy it was that made sure the French didn't get here.

Then we had the republic debate and millions were spent once more to put down the non British "guests" that we asked here in their millions.
We kept the Queen as our head of state and the British system because republic models like Indonesia, France, and even America do not appeal to us.
What we have now, is no longer anything to do with Britain, it just happens to be the best system and we kept it including the Queen.

We grew up with Beano comics and I had a Hornsby train and a Meccano set.
But the more we tried to hang on to the old country, the more Britain tried to get rid of us.
Joining the European enemy in a community and acting like they were going to love them more than Australia and New Zealand did, went a long way towards throwing what was left of us into the arms of a glad America.

[herakles]

All true Sailor. But it's a view held by our generation. The young ones today couldn't give a fig about our British heritage. Sadly, I think the next Presidential referendum will succeed in removing the Queen. Only last week the Royal Woman's hospital in Melbourne dropped the "Royal".

The majority of Australians today are from a non-British background so why would they care of our historic links?

It's a little known fact that 35% of the Australians at Gallipoli were British born, including the famous Simpson of donkey fame. As everyone in South Shields knows only too well.

And that they were mostly CofE as the Irish Roman Catholics in Australia at the time weren't going to lift a hand to fight for England.

Britain did turn its back on the Commonwealth when it joined the EU, causing much hardship especially to New Zealand. Personally I think England was right to join the EU as mostly only good has come out of that. But they had to drop the Commonwealth of course in order to join.

[astraltrader]

Just a postcard that goes with this thread.

It was known as the Great White Fleet....

[herakles]

When researching this matter, I was blown away by the amount of information generated at the time. There are thousands of postcards for instance. Even dozens of shipboard ones.

Here are just a few more pics from the time:

[Maritime Michael Ian]

Sailor, Herakles,

I'm one of those who is proud to be English first and Australian second!
I have very fond memories of Australia, and I still have former colleagues of 50 years with whom Iam in regular contact. I regard Australia as my second home, even if I am precluded from returning there permamently should I so desire, and even if I was granted residency there in 1953 and 1967, plus I fulfilled my National Service requirement there... and have a NS Commemorative Medal from the OzGovt.

I have always been against a United States of Europe, which is what I fear will be the case. I was always against Britain forsaking the Commonwealth in favour of Europe, especially as it was Australians, New Zealanders, and Canadians who flocked to UK in BOTH wars to help us out, not the French. I, for one, always especially remember the sacrifices made by all former Empire Service personnel on 24th January and 11th November! I know that many many Brits have never been happy over the events of the last 40 odd years.

I was heavily involved in passenger shipping in Melbourne and remember the time when we ( P&O, Orient Line,latterly Sitmar and Chandris Lines) used to carry Aussies and Kiwis home to 'the old country', or ' the old dart', for their almost compulsory two years working holiday, without the need for entry/re-entry visa either into UK or Australia! It is also noticeable that 'the young men and women' from those countries still regularly come here to continue the 'tradition'

It is my firm conviction that Aussies and NZ's should be special cases and have the right to travel and stay here, if they so wish, 'without let or hindrance' .I am happy to be a former colonialist... so an definitely NOT PC!

Ian

[herakles]

Your comments are echoed by many Brits Ian.

I am sort of like you, Australian born citizen and proud to be British. It seems that the Brits are less demanding welcoming people than the Australians are. I am sorry you seem to have been treated so churlishly. Anyone who survived Pucka deserves better!

You know as well as I do that what was essentially a 100% British country is today heavily populated by non British stock. Who care nothing for its British heritage or Britain. Small wonder that Republicanism is in vogue.

The sacrifices made by Australia and New Zealand in two world wars are massive. NZ lost more men per head of population that any other country.

This isn't the place to develop this but I do add that it irritates me greatly that great Australian victories are called British successes. e.g. the stopping of the huge German break-through in 1917.

And it saddens me that today Australians have to enter England through the Aliens gate.

The Commonwealth, the replacement of the Empire, could have been a huge thing with a powerful effect on world affairs. Yet today, there are some calls to have Britain excluded from it. I feel that the Commonwealth has become as useful as the UN. There just weren't any politicians of vision at the time.

Personally, I feel that Britain had to join the EU in order to survive. Calls to scrap their involvement and have some sort of union with the USA are to me pie in the sky. If the EU does nothing more than curb the factional fighting that has dogged Europe for generations, then it will have served its purpose.

However, the Brits have to put up with some remarkable legislation. Like the one announced yesterday that bus passengers have to get out of their bus every 30 miles. And hence buy multiple bus tickets for one journey.

When our generation dies off, the matter will be closed as no-one remaining will even know let alone care.

[astraltrader]

Ian - I could not agree more with your third paragraph if I tried. From an historical perspective, Heath`s Government most certainly has a lot to answer for. I too have always been appalled at the concept of a federalised United States of Europe planned and constructed by French and German politicians and always under-pinned by unconcealed Anti-Americanism.

Herk - I am sorry but I cannot agree with you in any shape or form that Britain had to join in order to survive.

I am all in favour of close trading links with the rest of Europe - full stop.

I have always appreciated our special ties with America...

I most certainly did not agree with selling our traditional trading links with Australia and New Zealand down the river.

Finally you also make the observation that "if the EU does nothing more than curb the factional fighting that has dogged Europe for generations, then it will have served its purpose."
Firstly I dont agree there has ever been factional fighting - just different views and different interests from different nations speaking different languages!
These differences will not go away because of a Union built on the ashes of one of the largest cases of financial fraud in history and scripted from a treaty weasled in via the back-door!!

Anyway - I feel that I am dangerously veering off-topic!

[herakles]

Terry, I know your comments are the thoughts of many British. For example, Britain's link with the USA is of vital concern to both countries and should be fostered in any way possible.

"I am all in favour of close trading links with the rest of Europe - full stop." This tends to run counter to the huge number of Brits who have voted with their feet and migrated to various parts of Europe. I regard Britain as an integral part of Europe. The visit of the French PM is underscoring this.

In the latter part of my post, I was referring to the many wars fought in Europe. That's what I meant by factional fighting. The hard thing is to agree on what's Europe and what's not. And I feel that the EU is a good counter to the USA.


Clearly Britain is undergoing a fundamental change now. Re-defining who they are. I don't know where this will end up. But I am sure that the older views are being seriously questioned.

[Maritime Michael Ian]

Thanks Chaps,

I fully understand where, in fact, we are all coming from.

Of course the entry of Australian Visitors through the 'alien and non-EU' entrance is all wrong; naturally enough Australia followed suit .... when I go there I have to go through the equivalent exit as a non-Australian, which having lived in the country for 20 years doesn't really please me either!

I'm also 'right with you' when it comes to to the number of non-Europeans that have been allowed to enter Oz! No names, no pack drill but when I was visiting Melbourne two years ago to doresearch for my MA, I wore a navy blazer with the RAN roundal and Anchor on it. Got talking to an Immigration official and during the conversation, when I said that I met "two out of the three criteria" laid down for former British residents in Australia.... he said to me " You haven't heard me say this.... but your eyes are the wrong shape"..!!!!

I also understand that Sth Australia has broken ranks with the Commonwealth, in that it has said that it wants British immigrants to come to SA. The trouble is that, these days - as in almost everything - it's 'blasted politics' again!

Ian

[herakles]

Ian,

What you have said is truly shocking.

On behalf of my country, I apologise for those comments made to you.

You may now have some idea why I no longer live there.

[Maritime Michael Ian]

Thanks Herakles!

There are. at present anyway and fortunately, still parts of the 'old Australia', out in the bush, and inner country towns where some of the old decencies and customs are still around. When I drove through the Barossa Valley and saw that, for example,Angaston is still very much a bush town largely untouched and still retaining those 1800s and early 1900s architecture... in short the Oz that I migrated to in 1953 and knew up in Central West NSW....Trangie, Narromine, Nevertire.

I know that progress is inevitable, and of course it's essential, however I hope that the 'inland' can retain its character for some years yet. It is historic and perhaps keeps up the spirit of 'The Man from Snowy River'... or am I too much of a romantic!

Ian

[herakles]

You are right Ian. Our old Australia is still alive in the Bush. I was not a town man so I guess my views are also still in the 50's.

Even so, a few years ago I went into Angus And Robertson and asked for a copy of Banjo's verse. "Who?", the girl said. "You know, The Man From Snowy River, the man on our $10 banknote ... ..."
"Never heard of him." (Sigh)

-There was movement at the station
For the word had passed around ... ...

Would this be of any interest to you:

http://www.abc.net.au/corp/pubs/media/s2107534.htm

[Maritime Michael Ian]

Remarkable Herakles, and thanks for the link.

The trouble is that, it would appear to me anyway, Australian history is not being taught there, and let's face it, much of the 'Bush' poetry has its background in, and is part of, the the backbone of Australia's earlier years. That someone in, of all places, a bookshop there should not know about probably the most famous poet in Oz, suggests to me a lack of pride in Oz's past... and hence history.

We have a similar problem here because "it isn't done" to mention the fact that the English 'belted hell' out of the French at Agincourt! or that the greatest of all Admirals... Nelson, should have thrashed the French fleet in the Med as well as in 1805 at Trafalgar. On the outskirts of our village we have a newly planted area of trees called "Trafalgar Wood", it was set up ( along with a lot of similar woods throughout the UK) to commemmorate 21st October 1805. The government had tried to play it down but to no avail.

We can live in hope that "the wheel always turns full circle", it might take time but it does.

Ian

[herakles]

Some years ago I stood beside Napoleon's tomb with a big smile on my face.

"We beat you, you b*****d!" I said.

I have to confess that, as a child in Australia, I knew everything about British history an absolutely nothing of Australian. I think that's changed a bit.

But there again, poetry is just not important is it?!!!!!???

[Maritime Michael Ian]

Hm... well I only picked up Oz history when I came out ot Oz as a 13 year old! My parents and I went on a stud sheep station in Central West NSW when we first arrived, where I had my 14th birthday and I was able to meet some real characters.... swaggies, bushmen, ex Australian Light Horsemen.... oh yes and there were, besides the poetry..... the songs! Road to Gundagai, Pub with no beer!, Red Back on the Toilet Seat just to mention a few...

Memories!!!!

Ian

[herakles]

I'll bet you met some characters! Would have made an impression on a 14 y/o!

The real Oz. Still there somewhere.