HMS Royal Sovereign in Soviet Service.

[sandy1000]

Many years ago I saw a photograph of HMS Royal Sovereign being returned to the Royal Navy after service with the USSR navy. She was in absolutely pristine condition. Is there a story to this - was she initially handed over by the RN in deplorable condition and the Russians were making a point or was she also in pristine condition when the RN transferred her to the Russians? Was the superb appearance only skin deep and mechanically she was a mess?
If she was in really good shape overall could she perhaps have been retained as a museum ship?

[steve roberts]

Hi Sandy.I have heard that when she was returned to the Royal Navy,she was in a disgusting condition.Overrun with cockroach and rats.Mechanically dangerous and almost unseaworthy.I am she that even though she was an old ship,she would have been handed to the Soviets in a decent condition. Regards Steve.

[sandy1000]

I find that the topic has been discussed in Ships Nostalgia where it is pretty much accepted that she was handed over in a worn out state and returned in still a wornout condition but filthy as well. It was peculiar that all guns were fonded to be loaded on transfer back to the RN.

After having said all of that I can distnctly recall seeing a large photograph in The London Illustrated Times taken when she was handed back to the RN, and from a distance admittedly, but she looked superb.

[Alex Shenec]

On a "ARHANGELSK" even bears served. :D

Best regards

Alex

[steve roberts]

Hi Alex.Absolutely wonderful picture.Where on Earth did you find it? I notice though that the only Russian sailors in the picture are keeping a very respectable distance from their unusual "Shipmates" Regards Steve.:D

[r.morrison]

Evidently the ship was dirty, it's a well known fact bears aren't potty trained !:rolleyes:

[sandy1000]

That would be unbearable.

[tim lewin]

A while ago we organised an reception in the British Embassy for the Belfast appeal (see thread) and to add to the interest ran at the same time an exhibition of a wartime photographer called Robert Diament who was attached to the fleet at Murmansk; many of the pictures showed Royal Sov being handed over and at sea with the fleet, i have only two of his pics, attached, but his son has published them in a book, or two, which is in Russian although nearly all pics. If you are really interested i can ask if anyoine can find a copy. You might try to google him as i think he might also have a web site. I think the pics are of the day of handover by Adm Frazer.
tim

[steve roberts]

Hi Tim Thanks for those photos.I suspect many of our members will not have seen them before.I hope you can find a link with your friend,then we can view the rest of them.I know when the ship was returned to the Royal Navy,she swung round a bouy in reserve,never being reactivated.She was scrapped in 1949 I believe.I have a photo of that some where.Will look it out and post it later.Regards Steve.

[steve roberts]

As promised. HMS Royal Sovereign,arriving at Wards & Sons,Inverkeithing to be scrapped.After swinging round a bouy since her return,she is in a sorry state.The turrets were removed prior to her arrival for scrap,to reduce her depth and allow her to get alongside Wards yard. Regards Steve.

[Alex Shenec]

Hi.

I apologize, absolutely there is no time to write the answer. :(

The bear was photogenic and was popular. :p

Best regards

Alex

[steve roberts]

Hi Alex.Thank you for that.Bears seem to get a lot of sea time in the old Soviet Navy.Are they still photographed as ships mascots today?Regards Steve.

[Alex Shenec]

Hi steve.

Today is not present. But they were in old Soviet fleet of 1930-40. :)

Photo of well-known Russian photographer Evgen Haldej - light cruiser "Krasny Kavkas".

Best regards

Alex

[steve roberts]

Thank you again Alex.The bears in your last two photographs look very much younger and probably very much easier to handle.Regards Steve.:)

[John Brown]

Many years ago I saw a photograph of HMS Royal Sovereign being returned to the Royal Navy after service with the USSR navy. She was in absolutely pristine condition. Is there a story to this - was she initially handed over by the RN in deplorable condition and the Russians were making a point or was she also in pristine condition when the RN transferred her to the Russians? Was the superb appearance only skin deep and mechanically she was a mess?
If she was in really good shape overall could she perhaps have been retained as a museum ship?

I seem to remember this topic being discussed previously on the forum but my understanding is that the ship was in far from pristine condition when she was returned to the RN. Not only was every gun from 15" down to machine guns loaded but her mess decks were covered in human excrement.


Regards....John

[JackW1208]

Thank you again Alex.The bears in your last two photographs look very much younger and probably very much easier to handle.Regards Steve.:)

Can you imagine the thought of a bear onboard a Pussers Ship AND the tot!!!

Jack.

[steve roberts]

Hi Jack.That does not BEAR thinking about:D:D.I would not argue if it wanted to be rum bosun every day! With sippers and queens,with a bit of luck it would do the same as any true blue! Have a good lunch and sleep it off.YOU try shaking him for the dog watches!!!!:pRegards Steve.

[r.morrison]

At least wth a bear there are no problems with rubbish, those creatures eat anything !:cool:

[r.morrison]

Are there any traces of them being kept in submarines ?:rolleyes:

[David Verghese]

A while ago we organised an reception in the British Embassy for the Belfast appeal (see thread) and to add to the interest ran at the same time an exhibition of a wartime photographer called Robert Diament who was attached to the fleet at Murmansk; many of the pictures showed Royal Sov being handed over and at sea with the fleet, i have only two of his pics, attached, but his son has published them in a book, or two, which is in Russian although nearly all pics. If you are really interested i can ask if anyoine can find a copy. You might try to google him as i think he might also have a web site. I think the pics are of the day of handover by Adm Frazer.
tim

There is a website, in Russian language, dedicated to the wartime naval photography of Robert Diament. Here is the link to the page with photographs including Arkhangelsk, formerly the battleship HMS Royal Sovereign.

http://www.diament.ru/archive/korabli.html

Photgraphs, labelled in alpha numerics, of interest include 2T023, 2T029, 2T098, 2K295 and 2T297.
There is also a nice shot of her dressed in flags in 1945, (click on bottom but one page on left - photo 2K145)

When Convoy JW 59 left Loch Ewe on 15 August 1944, in tandem was a Russian navy manned force of Royal Sovereign (now the Arkhangelsk and eight US Town Destroyers under the command of Vice admiral Admiral Levchenko. They were destined for the Northern Fleet under the command of Vice Admiral A.G. Golovko. The latter was not too impressed with both the British ship and the USS Cruiser Milwaukee (photo 2T273) which, in his memoirs (With the Red Fleet; publ.Putnam and Co.Ltd, 1955), he describes as ..steamers - the U.S. one being obsolete. But he did recognise the force as a doubling one in terms of numerical inventory added to his Fleet.

The USS Milwaukee had accompanied Convoy JW 58 in late March from Loch Ewe to Murmansk, my partner's father serving as an E.R.A. in the Escort Flagship HMS Diadem. Milwaukee was transferred to the Soviet Northern Fleet in lieu of surrendered Italian ships.

Here is a nice shot below of Arkhangelsk in 1944.

Tim - Could the Admiral in your left photo be Sir Henry Ruthven Moore, who became CinC Home Fleet in mid June 1944?

David

[Alex Shenec]

By submarines other guys served. :D

Are there any traces of them being kept in submarines ?:rolleyes:

Best regards

Alex

[steve roberts]

Hi Alex.Nice photo,and more fitting for a submarine!. I have a photo some ehere of seals sleeping on the bows of an American submarine.Many Regards Steve.:)

[r.morrison]

Still in the animal thread........

[tim lewin]

Dear David, thats the chap, verywell done in finding his site. It was his son who joined with us and asked to hold an exhibition while we were doing our fundraiser for HMS Belfast. He was a good chap, not much English as i recall; he has published his books of his father's archives. Unfortunately i had to rely on others to identify the people in the pics and only recall Frazer (??), it was a couple of years ago.
all best
tim

[doug.birch]

Hi, David my late friend Bert Ridge, a gunnery rating on the Duke of York was seconded to the Royal Sovereign, to help train the Russians how to handle the guns. I cant imagine the RN sending our sailors to a ship in a deplorable state. Another snippet about the Arkhangelsk, on the 28/4/1944 Escort Carrier Fencer escorted convoy RA59, departed from the Kola Inlet, onboard was Admiral Levchenko with his staff and some Russian sailors that were to crew the Arkhangelsk and to witness the sinking of 3 U-Boats by Swordfish of 842 Squadron from Fencer. Doug.Birch.75954

[INVINCIBLE]

Many years ago I saw a photograph of HMS Royal Sovereign being returned to the Royal Navy after service with the USSR navy. She was in absolutely pristine condition. Is there a story to this - was she initially handed over by the RN in deplorable condition and the Russians were making a point or was she also in pristine condition when the RN transferred her to the Russians? Was the superb appearance only skin deep and mechanically she was a mess?
If she was in really good shape overall could she perhaps have been retained as a museum ship?

In this picture of ROYAL SOVEREIGN returning to Rosyth, from loan to Russia she looks quite smart, with out the usual rust streaks.

[David Verghese]

Dear Doug,

Thank you for your input in post#25 . I try always to read your posts since it is a privilege for the Forum to hear from you because you were actually there on one of those perilous arctic convoys. First hand you experienced the danger of attack by U-boats, the hazards of treacherous weather conditions and no doubt, the pleasure of seeing the relative tranquillity of Scapa Flow on a successful return.

Looking at my notes for a biography of one of HMS Diadem’s crew, I note that you had a fairly uneventful, in terms of encounter with the enemy, passage out to the Kola Inlet with Rear Adm. R. McGrigor’s independent (ie no merchant convoy to be escorted) force led by HMS Diadem. On the return journey leaving as you stated on April 28, it was a very large convoy, RA59 of 45 ships, that you were tasked to protect. There were about 2,300 Soviet naval personnel in total spread across some of these ships. The Soviet sailors were taking passage to the UK in order to man allocated allied naval vessels and return to the Northern Fleet. These ships were in lieu of surrendered Italian warships. As you state, Vice Admiral Levchenko and his staff sailed aboard HMS Fencer.

Captain (U/B) Northern Waters had fared poorly against the previous convoys JW58 and RA58 and thus reinforced U-Boat Groups Donner and Keil for a determined offense against RA59 and her escorts. Enemy reconnaissance sighted you early on and subsequently U-711 sank the merchant freighter William S. Thayer late on 30 April. Over the next three days, Fairey Swordfish II of 842 Naval Air Squadron from HMS Fencer attacked the preying U-boats of the 11th and 13th Flotillas comprising the above U-Boat Groups, and successfully sank with depth charges U-277, U-959 and U-674. I know that one Martlet/Wildcat was shot down by U-278 on May 3 but am unsure if the aircraft was one of Fencer’s (822 Squadron) or from the other Escort Carrier HMS Activity.

Weather conditions were atrocious for much of your journey and I know you proceeded to the Clyde, arriving 5 May, after detachment from Convoy RA59 to undergo storm damage repairs. HMS Diadem proceeded to Tyneside where her crew were given leave after prolonged arctic convoy duty since March 27. Diadem’s next shot in anger was to be during 10th Cruiser Squadron’s naval bombardment support of Juno beach, 05:50 June 6.

David

[Harold Hicks]

We were in Scapa when the Tiddly Quid was handed over to the Russians and there when she was returned.
HMS Formidable 1944