The USS Indianapolis: Secret Mission

[The Sailor]

Remember the old movie Jaws when the three guys are out on that fishing boat trying to catch the great white?
Remember the old half mad fisherman telling a story about sharks getting all his mates when his ship was sunk during the war?
Well the ship he was talking about was the USS Indianapolis.

The Indianapolis sailed from San Francisco on July 16 1945 carrying the Little Boy atomic bomb that was ultimately to be dropped on Hiroshima.
Well as we all know, the ship made it to Tinian and arrived on July 26, incidentally setting a record of 5000 miles 8000kms in ten days.
The Indianapolis offloaded it's top secret cargo and departed for duty at Okinawa via Leyte and Guam.
Early in the morning, at 00:15 on July 30 , two heavy explosions occurred against her starboard side forward, and she capsized and sank in twelve minutes.
Indianapolis had been hit by two torpedos from the Japanese submarine I-58.
The subsequent delay of the rescue mission led to the loss of hundreds of sailors. About 300 of the 1,196 men on board died in the attack. The rest of the crew, 880 men, floated in the water without lifeboats until the rescue was completed four days later. 321 crew came out of the water alive, with 316 ultimately surviving.

This was a top secret mission, so there was no notice sent to the port of destination.

Thus it was not until 10:25 on August 2 that the survivors were accidentally sighted by an aircraft crew on routine patrol. The survivors were mostly held afloat by life jackets, although there were a few rafts which had been cut loose before the ship went down. Gwinn immediately dropped a life raft and a radio transmitter. All air and surface units capable of rescue operations were dispatched to the scene at once where all effort in the face of the continuing submarine menace was made to rescue all that could be found.

It seemed ironic the way it turned out. I bet I'm not the only one who thought that the Japanese luck was out to get the ship after the bomb was delivered and not before.

In regard to the sharks, it has been said that the Indianapolis sinking resulted in the most shark attacks on humans in history, and attributes the attacks to the Oceanic Whitetip shark.

Captain Charles Butler McVay III, commander of Indianapolis since November 1944, was wounded, but survived the sinking, and was among those rescued days later. In November 1945, he was court-martialed and convicted

Photos below.
1-58
USS Indianapolis
Survivors on Guam

[herakles]

Makes you think what would have resulted had the ship gone down before it made its delivery. There was only enough material for 2 bombs.

Why was McVay court-martialled? A later problem?

[The Sailor]

McVay was charged with hazarding his ship by not zig zagging through a known submarine hot spot.

[herakles]

Ah! Thanks

[ceylon220]

Saw the picture "In Harms Way" and just recently read the book, believe it or not I had tears in my eyes reading how they tried to survive in the water expecting to be rescued and trying to fight off the sharks,McVay was unjustly tried and found guilty over the sinking, more heads should have rolled for ignoring the arrival times of the ship, a sad ending to a fine captain, never got to know that he was aquitted of the charges against him----the Japanese captain said at the trial that the "Indy" would have been torpedoed even if she was zigzagging, and as for getting an SOS off, the radio shack was demolished when the torpedoes hit----McVay was still getting hate mail until the day he died, maybe that was one of the reasons that he took his own life------in my eyes the crew of the Indianapolis were hero`s to the end, a lot of good men died that day and if those Admirals,Commodores on those land bases had done their job properly instead of sitting on their "butts" many more of those lads would have been saved.

[spruso]

McVay was charged with hazarding his ship by not zig zagging through a known submarine hot spot.

There was a documentary on TV some time back on the loss of the Indianapolis. Capt.McVay later commited suicide. From the docu. it appeared many of the crew were not happy about him being court martialed.

Apparently it was quite some time before the ship's loss was discovered due to poor communication procedures.

Cheers
Bruce

[Big Gorilla]

From what I've read, most of the crew supported McVay and didn't think he deserved to be court-martialed. it was interesting that the japanese sub captain appeared in court, and said he would have sunk it anyhow. The copurt-martial was actually reversed years after McVay died.

Cpt McVay committed suicide a few towns north of me. I frequently ride my motorcycle past the house and throw him a salute when I pass by. The house "Winvian Farm" is now a $1,000 (or more) a night hotel/inn featuring "theme" cottages such as a tree-house and a cottage inside an old helicopter body.

[ceylon220]

MacVay was a scape goat in my estimation after reading the book and seeing the film, no other ships captains were court martialed during the war for losing his ship, apparently the Admiral that called for it had a vendetta with McVays father when serving as a junior officer under him and was getting his own back through his son, it was only through the ships surviving crew members fight to clear his name that finally had the court ruling and the charges dropped, it`s a pity that he did not live to see it-----I reckon that it was all the hate mail that he was receiving from parents who had lost their sons when the ship went down that finally got to him.

[CGRET]

The sinking of this ship and the lack of Air Sea rescue as been determined that the ship was ordered to radio silence during the transit. Also a movement report was missing or not required during the ships voyage.

Regards
Charles

[Charles Neal]

My Grand Father Charles Anton Frost was one of the survivors on the USS Indianapolis.

[John Odom]

There was enough blame to go around, and none should have gone to McVay.

The super secret nature of the Indy's mission to Tinian created problems. Still one of the sadest stories in the history of the USN

[Don Boyer]

Ceylon220 covered it all well, as have our other members.

McVay was a scapegoat, pure and simple. It crushed him, finally. His son, Kimo McVay, an entertainment promoter and a wonderful man much like his dad, lived here in Hawaii for years, tried to clear his dad's name before and after his death. With the help of book author Peter Nelson, House and Senate resolutions were eventually passed clearing Cpt. McVay's name. It is well recognized now that no real blame could accrue to Captain McVay due to the circumstances.

However, as all of us that have served know, a court-martial is pretty much the kiss of death to an officer's career regardless of the outcome. And of course, survivor's families full of venom and hatred are unaviodable even if there had been no court martial -- they do not care much about circumstances, just the fact that Johnny isn't coming home ever, and you were in command.

Admiral Nimitz received hundreds of letters from bereaved mothers and families excoriating him for things like the heavy casualties at Iwo Jima, always blown out of proportion by idiot news media types. He read them all. It comes with wearing four (and later five) stars in command during wartime.

As for zig-zagging, it can be just as much a gamble as steaming in a straight line (ignoring maximum high speed steaming in a straight line when a sub has no time to draw a bead). A submarine could draw a bead on a target zig-zagging with only a bit more difficulty than steaming straight, given some observation time...it was possible to work out the pattern and anticipate it. Plus zig-zagging increases your time in the danger zone. Even a course clock wasn't much help. (for those interested, read Richard O'Kane's "Clear the Bridge" which contains several discussions of a submarine's options in ship attack procedures when the enemy is zig-zagging.)

The lack of zig-zagging was used to string Captain McVay up, and even the Japanese submarine captain intimated that was ridiculous. The court brought him all the way from Japan to testify, then only listened to selective things he said. How convenient. Of course, the desk-bound sand-baggers walked away, although I think there were some non-career ending letters of reprimand issued.

McVay is a great example of exactly the kind of unsavoury behaviour that occurs when people are trying to cover their butts...as true in the board rooms of business and the halls of Congress/Parliment as it is in the military. Only brutal exposure of the truth prevents it, and that's often not available to the victim or his supporters when most needed.

[CGRET]

Don,

Well said, i couldn't agree with you more!

Regards
Charles

[Andy3E]

"Japanese submarine slammed two torpedoes into her side, Chief. We was comin' back from the island of Tinian to Leyte. We'd just delivered the bomb. The Hiroshima bomb. Eleven hundred men went into the water. Vessel went down in 12 minutes.

Didn't see the first shark for about a half-hour. Tiger. 13-footer. You know how you know that in the water, Chief? You can tell by lookin' from the dorsal to the tail. What we didn't know, was that our bomb mission was so secret, no distress signal had been sent. They didn't even list us overdue for a week. Very first light, Chief, sharks come cruisin' by, so we formed ourselves into tight groups. It was sorta like you see in the calendars, you know the infantry squares in the old calendars like the Battle of Waterloo and the idea was the shark come to the nearest man, that man he starts poundin' and hollerin' and sometimes that shark he go away... but sometimes he wouldn't go away.

Sometimes that shark looks right at ya. Right into your eyes. And the thing about a shark is he's got lifeless eyes. Black eyes. Like a doll's eyes. When he comes at ya, he doesn't even seem to be livin'... 'til he bites ya, and those black eyes roll over white and then... ah then you hear that terrible high-pitched screamin'. The ocean turns red, and despite all your poundin' and your hollerin' those sharks come in and... they rip you to pieces.

You know by the end of that first dawn, lost a hundred men. I don't know how many sharks there were, maybe a thousand. I do know how many men, they averaged six an hour. Thursday mornin', Chief, I bumped into a friend of mine, Herbie Robinson from Cleveland. Baseball player. Boson's mate. I thought he was asleep. I reached over to wake him up. He bobbed up, down in the water, he was like a kinda top. Upended. Well, he'd been bitten in half below the waist.

At noon on the fifth day, a Lockheed Ventura swung in low and he spotted us, a young pilot, lot younger than Mr. Hooper here, anyway he spotted us and a few hours later a big ol' fat PBY come down and started to pick us up. You know that was the time I was most frightened. Waitin' for my turn. I'll never put on a lifejacket again. So, eleven hundred men went into the water. 316 men come out, the sharks took the rest, June the 29th, 1945.

Anyway, we delivered the bomb."

One of the all time great cinematic speech's iMO, apparently Spielberg was planning on scrapping Jaws 2 and making a film about the Indie instead but the studio's veto'd it (he wasn't as established as he is now) but maybe one day he'll go back and make it (His films can be overly kiddie friendly and every single film doesn't need to have a happy ending...AI, i'm looking at you, but his war films are fantastic)

I Read In Harms Way which is an excellent account of the sinking and really bring home the sense of being adrift in the ocean for all that time with the sharks

[Gypsyvannergirl]

I'm currently reading the book "In Harm's Way" and according to that book McVay's orders were to "zigzag during daylight hours and zigzag at night, at his discretion, during good periods of visibility." "Captain McVay gave the command to cease zigzagging between 7:30 p.m. and 8:00 p.m. because his orders explicity stated that he could do this at his discretion during times of poor visibility. Not to mention the fact that intelligence reports stated that there was no enemy traffic in his area."

"He was never told that the Uss Underhill, a destroyer escort had been sunk by a Japanese kaiten while sailing from Okinawa to Leyte in a convoy of fifteen ships. McVay's intelligence had failed to mention the fact that the Tamon submarines were operating in the same path the Indianapolis was about to sail." - pages 76-77

"There was also confusion regarding messages sent to Rear Admiral McCormick, whom McVay was supposed to meet at Leyte. Two messages were sent but McCormick did not receive the first one and so when the second message arrived he was confused as to why the Indianapolis was reporting to Leyte in the first place (she was actually going to give her crew some much needed battle drills before going into combat)."

"Admiral Oldendorf, aboard the USS Omaha apparently did not receive the second message, but did receive the first message concerning the Indy's itinerary but that did not include the date of her anticipated arrival." - pages 81-82

That set the scene for the disaster that followed.

I am astounded that she was sailing alone with no destroyer escort. Considering that she had, I believe, no sonar capabilities. But even if she did and if this book is true, there were many superior officers and lax message decoders who should have been brought up on charges also.

It seems to me that a brave and competent man, was a scapegoat for a tragedy that should never have happened. I can't put this book down and I only wish that someone could tell him what a hero he was and how valuable his life was.

My opinion only, but I don't believe he was responsible for any of the deaths that occurred on his ship and his name should be cleared if it hasn't already. "Haven't finished the book yet but I hope something positive comes out of a complete foul-up."

Gypsyvannergirl

[Don Boyer]

His name was cleared, and his conviction vacated as well. He did no wrong, but the deaths and accusations haunted him and he eventually committed suicide, the second cruiser commander to do so in the war.

His son, Kimo McVay, lived here in Hawaii almost all his life and was an entertainment promoter up until his death from liver cancer a few years back. He worked hard to see his father's name restored. He too, was a kind and gentle warrior in his own way.

As for modern shark kills, the Indianapolis may well have provided the largest number of kills in a single encounter, but shark attack was as common as could be around sinking ships all over the Pacific in the war. I'm sure in the Atlantic too, but it's funny that I don't remember any of those, whereas the Indianapolis incident stands out dramatically.

[Gypsyvannergirl]

I read somewhere in a wildlife dictionary that the Oceanic Whitetip shark is able to recognize the sound of a sinking ship from miles away. But I don't know how true that statement is.

For sure they would have been attracked to the scent of blood from any extremely wounded man or men. They are extremely dangerous and on one documentary they were listed in the top ten most dangerous sharks in the world. (The number one shark on that list, surprisingly was not the Great White Shark, but rather the Bull Shark)

Either way, I still would like to know why she was sailing with no destroyer escort - that was asking for trouble in my honest opinion. There were two of them near Leyte that could have been asked to help - unless they were undergoing repairs of some kind.

Peace to al
Gypsyvannergirl

[steve roberts]

Hi Corrine. Dont forget she was on a Top Secret mission so the fewer that knew what she was up to the better.It is still a mystery as to why she was not carrying out evasive Zig-Zag manouvers ,having carried out her mission and was on her way back to base.Surely radio silence was not required at that stage of the mission? Regards Steve.:confused:

[Gypsyvannergirl]

I realize that her mission was top secret, but the mission was finished and the package removed before she left for Leyte.

There were two destroyers between her and Leyte: USS Ralph Talbut and USS Madison that could have gone to meet her surely; without jeopardizing her finished mission - in fact I would have thought two destroyers escorting the USS Indinapolis would have looked more natural than a lone heavy cruiser.

Also, Captain's McVay's orders were to zigzag at night only if visibility permitted it and that night the man in the crow's nest said he couldn't even see his hand in front of his face (slight exaggeration I'm sure) but obviously it was dark enough that McVay made a judgment call to stop zigzagging as per his instructions. It is simply bad luck that his decision put her right in the line of fire.

Unwittingly he sailed straight into the path of the Japanese sub which took full advantage of the situation and the rest is terrible history. I'm sure Captain McVay wished hundreds of times afterwards that he had continued on a zigzag pattern - but if he was told officially that it was his judgement call at night then he shouldn't have been crucified for it. Someone higher up should have taken some of the blame for him.

By the way I was a little off on my prior post - the Oceanic Whitetip shark is the fifth most dangerous shark in the world. The Bull Shark is number one, The Great White Shark is number two, I don't know the other two but they could be either the Mako Shark; the Tiger Shark or the Hammerhead - it doesn't matter which.

I'm sorry if I sound like a know-it-all - but this book and story behind the book has filled me with a lot of feelings because a good man lost his career and his life for no good reason.

Peace
Gypsyvannergirl

[steve roberts]

I realize that her mission was top secret, but the mission was finished and the package removed before she left for Leyte.

There were two destroyers between her and Leyte: USS Ralph Talbut and USS Madison that could have gone to meet her surely; without jeopardizing her finished mission - in fact I would have thought two destroyers escorting the USS Indinapolis would have looked more natural than a lone heavy cruiser.

Also, Captain's McVay's orders were to zigzag at night only if visibility permitted it and that night the man in the crow's nest said he couldn't even see his hand in front of his face (slight exaggeration I'm sure) but obviously it was dark enough that McVay made a judgment call to stop zigzagging as per his instructions. It is simply bad luck that his decision put her right in the line of fire.

Unwittingly he sailed straight into the path of the Japanese sub which took full advantage of the situation and the rest is terrible history. I'm sure Captain McVay wished hundreds of times afterwards that he had continued on a zigzag pattern - but if he was told officially that it was his judgement call at night then he shouldn't have been crucified for it. Someone higher up should have taken some of the blame for him.

By the way I was a little off on my prior post - the Oceanic Whitetip shark is the fifth most dangerous shark in the world. The Bull Shark is number one, The Great White Shark is number two, I don't know the other two but they could be either the Mako Shark; the Tiger Shark or the Hammerhead - it doesn't matter which.

I'm sorry if I sound like a know-it-all - but this book and story behind the book has filled me with a lot of feelings because a good man lost his career and his life for no good reason.

Peace
Gypsyvannergirl

Hi Corrine.I think its Tiger,Hammerhea then Mako.Anyway back on thread.Surely at that stage of the War she would have had Radar,so lack of vis should not be a factor,also why the strict order for radio silence,even after being Attacked? I agree a Good man was thrown to the wolves over this.Your Friend Steve.:confused:

[steve roberts]

I realize that her mission was top secret, but the mission was finished and the package removed before she left for Leyte.

There were two destroyers between her and Leyte: USS Ralph Talbut and USS Madison that could have gone to meet her surely; without jeopardizing her finished mission - in fact I would have thought two destroyers escorting the USS Indinapolis would have looked more natural than a lone heavy cruiser.

Also, Captain's McVay's orders were to zigzag at night only if visibility permitted it and that night the man in the crow's nest said he couldn't even see his hand in front of his face (slight exaggeration I'm sure) but obviously it was dark enough that McVay made a judgment call to stop zigzagging as per his instructions. It is simply bad luck that his decision put her right in the line of fire.

Unwittingly he sailed straight into the path of the Japanese sub which took full advantage of the situation and the rest is terrible history. I'm sure Captain McVay wished hundreds of times afterwards that he had continued on a zigzag pattern - but if he was told officially that it was his judgement call at night then he shouldn't have been crucified for it. Someone higher up should have taken some of the blame for him.

By the way I was a little off on my prior post - the Oceanic Whitetip shark is the fifth most dangerous shark in the world. The Bull Shark is number one, The Great White Shark is number two, I don't know the other two but they could be either the Mako Shark; the Tiger Shark or the Hammerhead - it doesn't matter which.

I'm sorry if I sound like a know-it-all - but this book and story behind the book has filled me with a lot of feelings because a good man lost his career and his life for no good reason.

Peace
Gypsyvannergirl

Hi Corrine.I think its Tiger,Hammerhea then Mako.Anyway back on thread.Surely at that stage of the War she would have had Radar,so lack of vis should not be a factor,also why the strict order for radio silence,even after being Attacked? I agree a Good man was thrown to the wolves over this.Your Friend Steve.:confused:

[John Odom]

Tjhe USS Indianapolis story is one that arouses the emotions. There were many failures. That lead to the terrible loss of life. The Navy's behavior toward McVay was a coverup. to protect the higher ups. SAD.

[Gypsyvannergirl]

Please tell me that the very least the Navy could do was to bury him with full Naval Honors.:mad:

Gypsyvannergirl

[John Odom]

From the USS Indianapolis website:



"...the Navy knew there were submarines in the area but never told McVay and sent the ship to sea unescorted ... Worse, the Navy failed to notice that the cruiser had never arrived at port, while hundreds died at sea."

Excerpt from May 3, 1998, article entitled "A Boy's School Project Aims to Revise History" in The New York Times




The Worst Naval Disaster in US History
At 12:14 a.m. on July 30, 1945, the USS Indianapolis was torpedoed by a Japanese submarine in the Philippine Sea and sank in 12 minutes. Of 1,196 men on board, approximately 300 went down with the ship. The remainder, about 900 men, were left floating in shark-infested waters with no lifeboats and most with no food or water. The ship was never missed, and by the time the survivors were spotted by accident four days later only 316 men were still alive.

The ship's captain, the late Charles Butler McVay III, survived and was court-martialed and convicted of "hazarding his ship by failing to zigzag" despite overwhelming evidence that the Navy itself had placed the ship in harm's way, despite testimony from the Japanese submarine commander that zigzagging would have made no difference, and despite that fact that, although over 350 navy ships were lost in combat in WWII, McVay was the only captain to be court-martialed. Materials declassified years later add to the evidence that McVay was a scapegoat for the mistakes of others.

In October of 2000, following years of effort by the survivors and their supporters, legislation was passed in Washington and signed by President Clinton expressing the sense of Congress, among other things, that Captain McVay's record should now reflect that he is exonerated for the loss of the Indianapolis and for the death of her crew who were lost.

In July of 2001 the Navy Department announced that Captain McVay's record has been amended to exonerate him for the loss of the Indianapolis and the lives of those who perished as a result of her sinking. The action was taken by Secretary of the Navy Gordon R. England who was persuaded to do so by New Hampshire Senator Bob Smith, a strong advocate of McVay's innocence. The survivors are deeply grateful to Secretary England and Senator Smith and also to young Hunter Scott of Pensacola, Florida, without whom the injustice to Captain McVay would never have been brought to the attention of the media and the Congress.

Unfortunately, the conviction for hazarding his ship by failing to zigzag remains on Captain McVay's record. Never in the history of the U.S. military has the verdict of a court-martial been overturned, and there is no known process for doing so.

It can be stated unequivocally, however, that, if the Indianapolis had arrived safely at Leyte without incident, Captain McVay would never have been court-martialed. Thus, by exonerating him for the loss of the ship and the death of 880 of her crew members, the Navy Department has at last conceded that he was innocent of any wrong-doing. His exoneration is tantamount to an admission that he should never have been court-martialed in the first place.

The survivors are thankful that after 56 years the good name of their captain has been cleared. Please browse our site for more in-depth information.

[steve roberts]

Well posted John.I don't think our lot ever officially reversed a Courts Martial descion either! Regards. Steve.:(

[Gypsyvannergirl]

But that's the part I don't understand.

His orders were to zigzag during daylight, but at night it was up to his discretion whether to zigzag or not depending on visibility. According to the survivors it was so dark that meeting someone on deck you literally had to say who you were because people couldn't around you couldn't see each others faces.

Let's just say for arguments sake that he had continued to zigzag. The submarine was too close to allow her kaiten suicide dudes to do their thing, so he chose to launch torpedoes. So USS Indianapolis does her zigzag pattern and runs over the sub instead, the sub sinks, the Indianapolis does too and the same thing happens with the sailors going four days without food or water, being attacked by sharks, etc., only this time the sub is a casualty too.

The navy still isn't going to realize she's late because she has no destroyer escort to help her and no one knows where she is or when she is supposed to be arriving. If they based their whole court martial process on his failure to zigzag then someone above him in rank needs a good a** kicking.

Just sign me: I believe in Captain McVay's innocence

Gypsyvannergirl

[John Odom]

You are right, Corinne. It was a monumental failure of both administration and Justice.

[Gypsyvannergirl]

I just finished reading the book "In Harm's Way" about the sinking of the USS Indianapolis and for the first time in my life I don't know what to say.

Considering the subject the author was dealing with, his book was certainly honest and in no way sensationalistic. I feel terrible for the crew and especially for Captain McVay and I'm outraged by how he was treated by the Navy he had served faithfully for so many years. How easy it was for them to make him a scapegoat, never even considering the SOS messages that were blatantly ignored. I just don't understand how the Navy can treat people like that; suppress evidence that doesn't fit their theory and condemn a decent man to years of torment not only in his own mind but also in the letters from the families of the men who died. Until he couldn't take it anymore and took his own life.

I stick by my belief that there should have been a destroyer escort. More men could have been saved - the message could have gotten to where it was supposed to go much, much quicker, saving four days of torture for those sailors. I know her mission was secret, but she had finished her mission and was heading back. In my honest opinion, she looked more suspicious alone in the middle of the Pacific Ocean than if she had had a couple of destroyer escorts.

Of course it's too late now. I hope Captain McVay has finally found the peace that eluded him in life. And I pray for peace for the families and survivors of that terrible tragedy.

Also, they weren't only attacked by Oceanic Whitetip sharks - there were large tiger sharks there too, and others that the author mentioned but I can't remember off hand. That, and four days exposed to the sun and salt water and I'm amazed they didn't all become unhinged. Brave men all - especially the survivors. And kudo's to Hunter Scott for fighting for them.

Gypsyvannergirl

[Gypsyvannergirl]

Okay so following the logic of the Navy Top Brass, the Captain of the USS Cole should have been court-martialed too for putting his ship in danger and failing to take necessary action to protect his ship and crew in a dangerous harbor.

Gypsyvannergirl

[Don Boyer]

[Warning! Warning! Danger, Will Robinson!!]

You have stated: "following the logic of the Navy Top Brass..."

Associating "logic" and "top brass" closely can be an error...! :)

They only display the logic of how close to the fire is their precious promotable ass first, followed by scapegoating to make the navy look good wherever possible second, in the manner of corporations and bureaucracies everywhere.

I love my navy, but those at the top are most human, and, depending on the situation, are concerned with the navy's reputation first. I do believe, and someone will have to look this up, the Cole Captain did get a slap following the Court of Inquiry, but was not court-martialed.

What usually happens, even if the top brass hand down only minimal censure, is that you can bet that Captain's name will not appear on any promotion list ever. That essentially is the career kiss of death, and seldom is more than that needed or warranted if the officer was indeed in the wrong.

In my mind, the Cole should have had crew on deck, armed with the .50 cal machine guns normally carried for rendering honors to terrorists coming aboard, and orders to shoot to kill, "friendly" port or not. "Friendly" doesn't apply in any port where access by Moslem extremists is "possible" much less probable.

If the Captain didn't have those procedures in place, he was in error.

HOWEVER it is quite possible that the idiots that run the state department influenced navy policy from on high and made it impossible for him to do that and be within the current naval "rules of engagement."

Doing anything else -- such as being prepared -- would then be in violation of orders, and grounds for relief from command. (I would have done it anyway, because my crew would be far more important in my mind than my promotability.)

This of course, is my personal perspective. We may have serving naval officers on board this forum who would disagree.

If you want another example of shameful, tawdry attempts at management sellout of the lower echelon, check the story of the turret explosion on the Iowa back in the 80s.

[Gypsyvannergirl]

Okay we are now into the oxymorons. Sort of like "military" "intelligence".

Thanks for your post Don, I will definitely look up the Iowa, I seem to remember that one vaguely and if it is the one I recall, again a scapegoat was found to take the blame.

Gypsyvannergirl

[steve roberts]

Hi Corrine & Don. I think the message is slowly filtering down.I know our ships visiting foriegn ports have manned machine guns on deck when entering a port "Friendly" or not.I think the "Towel Heads" in the Gulf tought every one that.Plus armed upperdeck sentries are now the norm. Kind Regards. Steve;)

[mike d]

Don's comments remind me af a line from a U.K. film I saw many years ago about a R.N. Officer. It was a comedy filmed in the 50's I believe.
In the movie a junior officer is told by a more senior one "You'll never get anywhere in the Navy by showing your intelligence....you'll make everyone else look bad"!!!!

[Abbeywood.]

What a story of naval incompetence and, in Capt McVay's case, a travesty.
One could argue that these things happen in war but it doesn't alter the fact that too many people who were ultimately responsible for the despatching of 'Indianapolis' on her fateful voyage, conveniently dodged the flak that came after her demise.
Incidentally am I correct in thinking that the ship was only delivering the triggering mechanisms for the A-bombs, the main bodies of the bombs having been delivered to Tinian some time earlier.

[Don Boyer]

Abbeywood:

According to what I've read, they were delivering the "cores" for the weapons -- the actual nuclear material. This based on what has been said about what came aboard and what they did with the containers. I believe it's covered in Rhodes "The Building of the Atomic Bomb"

[NASAAN101]

Guys,
I have two Books on this big girl, and Yes i mean big! the first is In Harms way, and the other is, All the Drowned Sailors! but there both good books on her! Now, weather McVay, should have been count- martialed, i dont know! but what i do know is, if she had to Destroyers, this sinking might not have happened!! That's the way I see it!
Nikki

[Ramm]

Hello.
Please help me and answer the question. What was the painting of the USS Indianapolis at the moment of sinking?
Yours sincerely

[Don Boyer]

Ramm:

Indianapolis' paint scheme is shown in the attached photo, taken 10 July 1945. Identified as the Measure 22 paint scheme.

Regards,

[ludsie]

I think the captain was the scapegoat, twas just an attempt to distract the public from the real incompetence that occurred in high command

[Don Boyer]

CPT McVay's son Kimo McVay, now deceased, worked tirelessly to clear his father's name, which was finally done -- years too late, as usual, with the obdurate military. Kimo was a well-known entertainment industry personality here in Hawaii for many years.

[Abbeywood.]

As clarifying points, the initiator of this thread, 'The Sailor', suggests that the 'Indianapolis' crossed from San Francisco to Tinian, an assumed distance of 5000 miles, in ten days, which would give an average speed of just 21 knots, plus or minus a knot.
According to my references the Indianapolis, and her sister-ship, Portland were capable of approx' 32 knots and I Believe this is the speed at which 'Indy' was ordered to proceed at. Someone will correct me if I am wrong
Assuming that she would have been fully fuelled-up before her departure, it would have been almost impossible for a destroyer to maintain anything like that speed as an escort, for very long, due to the limited bunker capacity of the destroyer. Indeed by the time the Indianapolis reached Tinian, her own fuel tanks would have been much depleted, considering they were fuelling eight boilers.
Admittedly, a destroyer escort could, and should, have been organised to rendezvous and escort the ship as she approached her destination, but as Don has already pointed out, logic and intelligence' seem to have been strange bed-fellows in the US Navy, at that period of time.
Can anyone give a maximum bunker capacity for the ship, and where was it proposed that she was to be re-fuelled again.?
Was she under orders to zig-zag after her departure from Tinian.?, and was she instructed to proceed PDQ to Leyte, or at economical speed.
At what speed was travelling when torpedoed. ?

regards to all, Pete'

p.s. From Janes 'Warships of World War 2':
Bunker capacity of Indianapolis/Portland = 1600 tons. This seems a bit under-estimated, but I've been wrong before, so why spoil the habits of lifetime.

[warbooklover]

In the Warship Pictorial 01 - USS Indianapolis CA-35, they state that the Indy sailed from Hunters Point Navy Yard, San Francisco on July 15 and arrived at Pearl Harbor in 74.5 hours at an average speed of 29 knots. After replenishing, she sailed for Tinian arriving on July 26th. The tables don't giver her bunker capacity but state that her endurance was 8,700nm at 15kts or 6,400nm at 20kts.

[jainso31]

Hi Pete-I checked several internet sites; and the all quoted what Capt.McVay
said at his courtsmartial hearing- that the ship was steaming through a calm sea at 17kts when she was torpedoed.

jainso31

[Don Boyer]

According to my reading on the story, Indianapolis was supposed to proceed at best sustained speed, which would have been dependent on the sea state in the area transiting. There is no doubt she maintained high speed all the way to Tinian, and no destroyer would have been able to keep up without refueling at least once.

As to Indianoplis' speed and maneuvering just before being torpedoed, if I remember correctly, the Japanese submarine commander said it would not have made any difference whether the cruiser was zig-zagging or not, it just so happened his ship was about as perfectly placed for an attack as could be imagined at the time. the "not zig-zagging" was absolutely nothing but naval butt-covering.

There has been much written about the benefits of zig-zagging to complicate the possibility of submarine attack, and in the case of warships capable of maintaining moderately high or high speeds in comparsion to attacking submarines the technique was certainly effective. Commander O'Kane of the Tang pointed out that zig-zagging on the part of (admittedly much slower) merchantmen usually just served to keep them from getting through an area faster and didn't really over-complicate the fire control solution, although it could definitely mess up an attack, usually redeemable by another end-around and set up.

With warships, proceeding at high speeds with no zig zagging almost precluded any submarine attack unles pure luck intervened. For example, all the maneuvering Shinano did prior to the attack by Archerfish kept the submarine at bay but not out of attack range and one single turn sealed Shinano's fate. Destroying a career over the issue of zig-zagging during daylight smacks simply of scapegoating, not any violation of tried and true naval tactics.

[John Odom]

Well stated, Don.

[brian james]

I agree John....You don't have to delve too far back in history to find cases of 'monumental cover ups and scapegoating'...Look what happened to the Captain of HMAS Melbourne when she collided with HMAS Voyager and later with USS Evans........Brian.....

[WGVSr]

RE: Bunkerage capacity, my references indicate a full fuel oil load for the Indy Maru in November, 1944 of 3,036 T and a full load displacement of 15,002 T. I believe these are in 'long' tons of 2,240#.
Bill

[Abbeywood.]

RE: Bunkerage capacity, my references indicate a full fuel oil load for the Indy Maru in November, 1944 of 3,036 T and a full load displacement of 15,002 T. I believe these are in 'long' tons of 2,240#.
Bill

Thank you, Bill,
Your bunker figures are more in line with my thinking, while the figures in my 'Janes', (1,600 tons) seem to be more applicable to a destroyer than a heavy-cruiser.
regards, Pete'

p.s. Que este de nombre 'Indy Maru'.
I've not come across it before, though I am aware of what it refers to.

[WGVSr]

Thank you, Bill,
Your bunker figures are more in line with my thinking, while the figures in my 'Janes', (1,600 tons) seem to be more applicable to a destroyer than a heavy-cruiser.
regards, Pete'

p.s. Que este de nombre 'Indy Maru'.
I've not come across it before, though I am aware of what it refers to.

Pete:
The normal bunkerage when built was 1416 T and the full load bunker was something around 2100 T. I've seen several places [and talked to one old Indianapolis vet in years gone by] who referred to her affectionately by her nickname, the 'Indy Maru'.
Bill

[cadillac811]

Admiral Don, back in Jan of 2010 you posted a reply about the USS Indianapolis sinking and that captian Charles B. McVay was the second crusier captian of WW2 to commit suicide. Who was the other? Please don't tell me it was Captian Gib Hoover of the crusier Helena who was relieved of duty (unjustly) by Admiral Halsey. cadillac811

[Don Boyer]

It was "Ping" Bode of the Chicago, whose actions at the battle of Savo were apparently thought by some to be cowardly, although I personally don't think his actions could be construed that way in the heat of a battle where just about everything that could go wrong did.