HMS Tynedale

[AlZictorini]

I wonder if anyone can help me, I’m trying to find out what other warships were protecting the Convoy KMS.34 (UK/North Africa Convoy) when HMS Tynedale was sunk northeast of Bougie (Tunisia) in December 1943. I do have the full list of Merchantmen but nothing much on the escorts? I believe the convoy contained HMS Hyderabad, HMS Halcombe, HMS Calpe and USS Wainwright. Can anyone confirm this and fill in the gaps in the escorts?

Regards
AlZictorini

[kc]

According to this page :

http://www.naval-history.net/WW2RN18-194306-2.htm

other escorts included HMS Cuckmere, USS Benson and USS Niblack.

It does not give an exhaustive list, but it is three more that seem to have certainly been escorting the convoy.

[AlZictorini]

Thanks KC

Good find.

Regards AlZictorini

[culverin]

The loss on 12 Dec 1943 of HMS Tynedale was a most unfortunate affair which during the defence of convoy KMS34 would also lead to the loss of a second Hunt class destroyer, HMS Holcombe, both at the hands of U593.
The major significance is that U593, by sinking these 2 ships became the first U boat to sink more than 1 RN ship in a day since Otto Weddigen in U9 despatched the 3 armoured cruisers HMS Aboukir, Hogue and Cressy on 22 Sept 1914.
U593 would in turn be sunk the very next day herself. 13 Dec 1943.

[patroclus]

Presumably these escorts had not yet been issued with the Foxer.

[culverin]

Hello patroclus, re the foxer,
I do not have an answer to this.
Whether a foxer was embarked on these Hunt class is to the best of my knowledge, unknown. They certainly took up little space and were simple to operate.
Certainly, both Tynedale and Holcombe were both apparently struck amidships by 1 single G7, gnat, acoustic torpedo, sufficicient in the case of Tynedale to break her asunder and in the case of Holcombe to cause a massive fire.
Only if the number of torpedoes fired at each ship could the facts be established with certainty, and if we are talking a salvo per ship, then it may be conceivable.
Foxers took a number of forms and had been about for some years, however whilst an escort is conducting operations as part of a convoy screen their effectiveness would be considerably reduced. Additionally, as with all towed deterrent methods, it can seriously restrict the movements of that ship deploying them.

[patroclus]

Hello Culverin:

According to Hackmann’s “Seek and Strike”, the sea trials and mass production of the A/S Foxer commenced in October, 1943. I think the earlier noise makers you refer to were probably the M/S type.

Foxers were heartily disliked on board escorts, because of thir weight and difficulty in deploying them, particularly the early Admiralty pattern.

[culverin]

Anything that is towed astern of a ship , irrespective of the perceived benefit, can only be a hindrance to that vessel whilst attempting to conduct operations against an unseen foe, and whose whereabouts are unknown but only suspected.
This has to apply in all war scenarios, and no sane skipper will willingly jeopardise his own ship, and men, in the half hearted belief that rattling some old ironwork is going to prevent a somewhat more sophisticated torpedo from blowing his stern off.
Or worse. As happened to both Tynedale and Holcombe, in rather quick order.
Foxers have never been of any benefit to an escort in a hunt for a sub.
Please do not forget a foxer is an active method of deception, and also wreaks havock on ones own passive sensors, deafening you to the threats you seek to find.

[patroclus]

Anything that is towed astern of a ship , irrespective of the perceived benefit, can only be a hindrance to that vessel whilst attempting to conduct operations against an unseen foe, and whose whereabouts are unknown but only suspected.
This has to apply in all war scenarios, and no sane skipper will willingly jeopardise his own ship, and men, in the half hearted belief that rattling some old ironwork is going to prevent a somewhat more sophisticated torpedo from blowing his stern off.
Or worse. As happened to both Tynedale and Holcombe, in rather quick order.
Foxers have never been of any benefit to an escort in a hunt for a sub.
Please do not forget a foxer is an active method of deception, and also wreaks havock on ones own passive sensors, deafening you to the threats you seek to find.

All true but it doesn't get me any closer as to whether the Hunts were equipped with Foxers!

[culverin]

To help possibly alleviate the question over foxers, i will then ask are you aware of other escorts in this theatre at this time deploying them, in whatever capacity, or are you simply attempting to disprove their effectiveness in a situation where neither of us has the answer.

An acoustic torpedo will still strike a target if all the circumstances are such that the 2 adversaries, at that time, are positioned for said target to receive that weapon from the tormentor.
It does not even need to be acoustic.
Ideally, any acoustic torpedo is a single shot weapon, and in those circumstances would only be released with a high degree of success.

Crucially, being fitted with a foxer does not in any way imply it was deployed at that time, or any other time. And as you imply, they have always been treated with the highest suspicion.

[patroclus]

According to this page :

http://www.naval-history.net/WW2RN18-194306-2.htm

other escorts included HMS Cuckmere, USS Benson and USS Niblack.

It does not give an exhaustive list, but it is three more that seem to have certainly been escorting the convoy.

Another section of that site has the escort for military convoy KMS34 as H M Frigate CUCKMERE, HM Escort Destroyers CALPE and TYNEDALE, US Destroyers USS NIBLACK, USS BENSON and USS WAINWRIGHT.

[patroclus]

To help possibly alleviate the question over foxers, i will then ask are you aware of other escorts in this theatre at this time deploying them, in whatever capacity, or are you simply attempting to disprove their effectiveness in a situation where neither of us has the answer.


My original question was a simple query as to whether TYNEDALE and HOLCOMBE had been equipped with Foxers. The other complexities have been introduced by you. As HOLCOMBE seems to have been hit aft (I note your statement in Post #6 about her being hit amidships) it occurred to me that she might have been trailing a couple of Foxers.

[QUOTE=culverin;154004]An acoustic torpedo will still strike a target if all the circumstances are such that the 2 adversaries, at that time, are positioned for said target to receive that weapon from the tormentor.
It does not even need to be acoustic.
Ideally, any acoustic torpedo is a single shot weapon, and in those circumstances would only be released with a high degree of success.[QUOTE]

The T5 was a complex weapon with a choice of programs - I suggest you look at the specs.

[jowoodward]

I wonder if anyone can help me, I’m trying to find out what other warships were protecting the Convoy KMS.34 (UK/North Africa Convoy) when HMS Tynedale was sunk northeast of Bougie (Tunisia) in December 1943. I do have the full list of Merchantmen but nothing much on the escorts? I believe the convoy contained HMS Hyderabad, HMS Halcombe, HMS Calpe and USS Wainwright. Can anyone confirm this and fill in the gaps in the escorts?

Regards
AlZictorini
The ship my Dad served on was HMS Holcombe and was part of the military convoy KMS34. This vessel was involved in searching for U593 after Tynedale was torpedoed along with 3 Wellington aircraft from 36 and 458 Squadrons RAF without success. Holcombe was hit by T5 Homing Torpedo and U593 and sank. According to www.naval-history.net website HM Frigate Cuckmere, US destroyers USS Niblack and USS Benson were also involved as part of this convoy. Calpe, Tyndale and Wainwright were also part of this convoy as you are aware, but no mention is made of Hyderabad in this account. It was Niblack I believe who picked up the survivors, including my dad, when Holcombe sank.

You may find the above mentioned website helpful. Hope this helps.
Regards, Jo

[culverin]

For the close escort of the Gibraltar - Alexandria convoy KMS.34 only the following 6 RN ships were to act as the close escort for the trip 9 - 19 Dec 1943.
Colombo as anti aircraft escort
Anemone
Coltsfoot
Convolvulus
Hyderabad
Cuckmere
with these 5 principally as anti submarine to the 97 merchant ships.
Colombo left on the 14th.
Cuckmere was torpedoed on 11th , hit by 1 gnat from U223, towed into Algiers where she was duly declared as a CTL and stricken. 17 of her crew died.
All other warships attached at times to this convoy did so for varying and limited times and in differing parts of the route, and were predominantly destroyers of assorted types.