Japanese Warships of WWII: AJ Watts

[scjon]

Just got this off Abe books for a song and I LOVE it. How does it compare to the Jentschura book (Warships of the Imperial Japanese Navy)?

[Vegaskip]

I bought that one at Portsmouth Railway station on my way home from demob, also have US WARSHIPS OF WW2, plus several Ian Allan original booklets, all well used. Enjoy reading it.
Last week I bought SEND A GUNBOAT by Antony Preston & john Major, another really good book.

Regards

[Don Boyer]

scjon:

Have heard the Watts book is excellent. I have the Jentschura book, which I find detailed and very useful, but in need of better organization and layout in a modern format. Considering the photographs that have crawled out of the woodwork over the past 40 years, they could have done better with the photographs, but then the book is "older" and probably didn't have access to them. I've never had anything to compare it to, and would be interested in your thoughts on the Watts book. Nice to know somebody besides me is keeping ABE in the black! :).

[scjon]

I am not sure what I would do without Abe. I am sure my mail lady wishes I did not have Abe though. My mailbox is a good two hundred yards from the house so he has to come up here with all those books, poor gal. The Watts book is very good, however, it is lacks in the photograph quantity department. It certainly has done well in the quality part though. including many I have never seen before. The information is thin sort of like the Navies of WWII series, but overall and excellent book. I got mine for $14 and it is WELL worth that. I have wanted that Jentschura book for years but until recently it hovered in the $80 range. I just saw one for about $40 though so I may have to finally do it. Abe is outstanding, I also learned some of my books are worth way more than I thought. Design series by Freidman I have the cruiser and small craft and both are over $180 each right now. I never knew! I am three short of finishing that set!

[Don Boyer]

You sound a lot like me in regard to books. Have to have "the" books that are highly rated for accuracy and detail, like Friedman. I have all but one or two of them.

Another book I use all the time for Japanese warships is the US Naval Institute compendium of Shizuo Fuku's "Japanese Warships at the end of WWII." USNI is way over pricey in my book, but copies are out there that are much cheaper.

I got lucky here when a friend who owned a bookstore decided to retire...in return for helping him clean out the store, I got my choice of his "military/history bookshelves! Acquired the 1912 and 1919 Jane's Fighting ships and a bunch of other good items like the 1900 Brassey's and a lot of books from foreign publishers.

Fun reading, fun collecting!

Best Regards,

[scjon]

A very lucky break. One of my favorite accomplishments in my library is the Morrison set. I managed to get all 15 volumes in the same reprint hardcovers with dust jackets. I went to Books a Million about every other day until I got them all. The Freidman series id the best I have ever seen of its type. I need both Submarine volumes and the amphibious one as well. We don't have any good used bookstores here amazingly enough. That is why I am thrilled I found Abe. I did manage to get to a "Charleston Library Society" sale one year and cleaned them out (last day they did $10 for a cardboard box full of as many books as you could get in it) of 1910-1045 military books. I even got some WWI first editions. But you know I don't have a single Jane's! Except the WWI/WWII ones... might have to work on that, but that might be a collection I should never start!

[Don Boyer]

scjon: Posted on this earlier, I think, but USNI is re-issuing "updated" versions of the Morrison set over the next three years, all volumes soft bound and around $30.00. I will buy one volume, or borrow one, just to see how good the "updating" actually is. If they are not a major improvement over the originals -- i.e., correct some oversights and biases of Morison's, they are probably not worth updating the set.

Interesting, however, that these volumes still wield such literary power among the naval history buffs for the USNI to even consider updating. They are very cautious regarding publication in general and reprints in particular because their funding sources are not huge nor steady.

Regards,

[scjon]

Even more oddly about the USNI is that I went to their office four times in the last three years and have yet to find them "open". They are at the USNA below (sort of) the USNA Museum. Plus that catalog they send me has to cost a pretty penny to print!
One of my favorite things about the Morrison set is that it remains unique in its concept and execution. A commissioned historian to specifically write a history? Wow! Foresight on FDR's part at least. And 15 volumes, the man didn't condense anything! Unique perspective of knowing you are going to be writing history as you are watching that history occur. Having to spend time with Rear Admiral So-and-so when you have learned to dislike him would be bound to show in your prose I guess. But I would love to see the updates. When is it supposed to come out? Just had bout of lightheadedness when I saw some of the Garzke/Dulin book prices. Are they THAT good?

[Don Boyer]

Garzke and Dulin are up at the top of the list on accuracy and detail from what I've seen..I only have one of their books. Technical data and photos must cost a penny to acquire.

I believe the first in the Morison series is coming out within the month. You can see their catalog online I believe. And of course, the question is, how good, how extensive and how historically significant are any modern additions to the books? The original are to a high standard of quality, but also open to some criticism, but that is mostly due to having been written to close after the events and without benefit of being able to use Ultra and other code-breaking intelligence openly. (Roger Pineau, it has been said, was on Morison's staff specifically too keep an eye on that issue!.)

Interesting that the set is NOT recognized as the "official" navy history of the war by the navy itself, who, not surprisingly, have offered nothing better. By comparison, the American Army and Air Force have buried historians under hundreds of volumes of "official" World War II history, much of it by highly accomplished professionals in the historical field.

Regards,

[scjon]

I wonder if some of that stems from the fact that the top Navy commanders (Nimitz, Spruance, Mitscher, even King to a lesser extent) deflected any and all publicity? While guys like MacArthur were hogging all the glory. I guess due the unassuming nature of its commanders the Navy was boring print? A shame since that is what made most of them so good. History owes a debt to Morrison and I guess everyone knows it but the Navy! It was too close to events, although he (Morrison) was so involved with all participants he probably would have been the same thirty years later. Ultra would have been huge to include though. I have read some of Pineau's stuff as well. I wonder if Morrison even knew about Ultra? Have to check that out when they come out though.

[Don Boyer]

I've always had the feeling that Morison, and a lot of other senior officers either knew for sure we were breaking codes, or made a good guess based on events, even if they weren't officially "cleared" for Ultra/Magic. With his broad traveling experiences at sea (more than any other officer in the navy) he probably had a good idea. The Battle of Midway alone would make one suspicious, if nothing else.

The navy was a bit less PR conscious, but not to the extent they would let the Army submerge their efforts and accomplishments in either war front. MacArthur had a huge PR staff, and everything was "MacArthur's forces" blah blah blah, one of the truly nasty pieces of self-promotion in history. So much so it cost him in the end. Imagine the general he could have been had he put the energy he expended promoting himself (at the expense of Commonwealth forces, mostly) into generalship in the field. He'd be a military god. Some think he was anyway.

My father, a Pacific war vet once told me "the tons of bombs dropped on Japan were only exceeded by the tons of MacArthur dumped on the American public," which I find highly believable. Like all of those who have walked with mighty strides across the pages of history, he had his good points, but he managed to submerge them almost all the time by being a pompous ass worried about his status and glory to excess.

To me, men like Nimitz represent the best of those who wore the top stars in the war.

[scjon]

Chester Nimitz seems to be one of the best commanders to ever don a US Navy uniform. Cool, calm, confident, and the ability to let the commanders he chose function as they should. Ray Spruance stated that he himself shunned publicity because he never wanted to have to live up to his own hype. Very true. one needs only to look at Bill Halsey to see that. MacArthur was in a league of his own. How in the heck did the guy not get sacked for losing his entir air force AFTER Pearl Harbor? And then still have the gets to be so dramatic about his "return". He was the classic defination of an egomaniac! Have to feel sorry for Thomas Kinkaid. Having to work under him must have been like purgatory.
I do wonder how much they wil alter the set. I hope they go all out, and make worth the interest. I will be on the lookout though.

[JarrowDave]

I have a copy of:-

NIMITZ

E. B. Potter

Naval Institute Press.

Printed 2008

Cost 15 quid in the UK, it's an American import, so it should be about 15 dollars in the US. I thoroughly enjoyed it.

I also have:-

The Fall of the Philippines.

Louis Morton

University Press of the Pacific, Honolulu.

ISBN : 1-4102-1696-9

Bit more expensive at 30 quid.

The subject matter demands that this is an uncomfortable read, but still worthwhile.

Does anybody know if the term "Dug out Doug" refers to DMcA being a retiree. Many retired officers called back to the British Army in 1914 were referred to, as "dug outs"?

Finally:-

War Plan ORANGE

Naval Institute Press

Edward S. Miller

ISBN: 0-87021-759-3

Very arcane, but still worth the effort.



Bet you've both got all three

JD

[scjon]

Actually only have one of the three! I have the Potter book but the other two I don't. Yet.... War Plan Orange is on my list just haven't bought it yet. I have a list that is entirely too long and continues to grow daily.
Why did the call them "dug outs"?

[JarrowDave]

I think that it was dug out of retirement, but I'm not sure.


JD

[astraltrader]

The dug-out Doug expression came from when McArthur was ordered to leave Bataan, leaving behind his by then rather embittered troops who accused him of baling out on them....

I thought this was common knowledge?? :confused:

[Don Boyer]

And Mac put out tons of Public Relations making sure everyone knew the President had ordered him out of the Philippines, he didn't just leave, which is a point I can understand. Dugout Doug indeed!

As a four star general, he remained in the bunker on Corregidor when his troops were fighting and losing outside Manila and down the Bataan peninsula. He then was ordered out. Thus the bad rep.

Strangely, his future conduct of "MacArthur wins WWII in the Pacific" I find more distasteful than his original conduct in the Philippines where he probably did the best he could with what was available. He was not the military genius some have thought in my estimation -- witness his air force getting caught on the ground.

[astraltrader]

All agreed Don.

As I have said on another thread I believe that his greatest achievement was as acting shogun of Japan 1945-1950.

[scjon]

I guess none of the books I have read dared to call him out. I had a few guesses going as to why, but since he had been ordered out I was confused. That was his finest moment. It certainly wasn't during WWII!

[steve roberts]

He nearly caused WW3 during his tenure in Korea,by advocating the use of Nuclear Weapons.Funny how Eisenhower replaced him soon after he mooted this idea! Regards Steve.

[astraltrader]

Steve - you will find that MacArthur was replaced by President Truman not by Ike.

Paradoxically enough Ike and MacArthur had much more in common over the possible useage of nuclear weapons in Korea.

After Eisenhower achieved his landslide 1952 Presedential election victory he consulted with MacArthur and even adopted his suggestion of threatening the use of nuclear weapons to end the war.

[Don Boyer]

At one time prior to WWII Eisenhower was Mac's Chief of Staff.

He once quipped that he learned dramatics from Mac. But of course he recognized that Mac had some good points as well as the huge ego.

Regards,

[Hugh Williams]

I've always had the feeling that Morison, and a lot of other senior officers either knew for sure we were breaking codes, or made a good guess based on events, even if they weren't officially "cleared" for Ultra/Magic. With his broad traveling experiences at sea (more than any other officer in the navy) he probably had a good idea. The Battle of Midway alone would make one suspicious, if nothing else.

The navy was a bit less PR conscious, but not to the extent they would let the Army submerge their efforts and accomplishments in either war front. MacArthur had a huge PR staff, and everything was "MacArthur's forces" blah blah blah, one of the truly nasty pieces of self-promotion in history. So much so it cost him in the end. Imagine the general he could have been had he put the energy he expended promoting himself (at the expense of Commonwealth forces, mostly) into generalship in the field. He'd be a military god. Some think he was anyway.

My father, a Pacific war vet once told me "the tons of bombs dropped on Japan were only exceeded by the tons of MacArthur dumped on the American public," which I find highly believable. Like all of those who have walked with mighty strides across the pages of history, he had his good points, but he managed to submerge them almost all the time by being a pompous ass worried about his status and glory to excess.

To me, men like Nimitz represent the best of those who wore the top stars in the war.

Hi,

I have just had my first read through of 'The Emperor's Codes - Bletchley Park and the Breaking of Japan's Secret Ciphers' by Michael Smith, ISBN 0-593-04641-2, Pub Bantam Press. This is a useful book which clarifies the relationship between USN and RN and the dissemination of High Grade Intelligence. It is well written to my mind - makes quite different reading from such books as British Intelligence in the Second World War, F.H. Hinsley.

On reading this book, it certainly seems that despite Allied preponderance of war supplies, the Japanese would never had a chance as their codes at many levels were read and acted upon with success. One such incident is the sinking of the Haguro, the destroyers were informed of her position accurately and were able to attack from 4 directions simultaneously (Radar contact had been obtained during the night on the approach to the target).

Regards,

Hugh Williams

[Jack Greene]

Watts is O.K./good, but the team book by Jentschura is more reliable. Neither are perfect in all details. :rolleyes:

I used them a lot in my game design days.