HMAS NORMAN

[Dreadnought]

My Uncle Talbot (Taff) Elliott, now 89, joined the RAN in 1939 and was part of the pre-commissioning party for Australia’s N type Destroyer HMAS Norman in 1941. He is one of only four surviving members of the ship.

On March 23rd 2006 in Melbourne, for Operation Acolyte, the Australian Defence Force support to the Melbouirne 2006, the crew of the latest HMAS Norman, a coastal mine hunter, invited Taff and his Granddaughter as special guests of honour,

He was piped aboard, 65 years after he “swallowed the anchor” off the original Norman, greeted by the Commanding Officer LCDR Tim Watson, and presented with the Australian White Ensign in front of the Ship’s Company.

Taff served at Scapa Flow, in the White Sea in Russia, with Force H in the Mediterannean, in India, Ceylon, South Africa, and East Africa where Norman led the invasion force into Majunga, Madagascar.

__________oo00oo__________

HMAS Norman was laid dowm on the 27th Jult 1939 at Vosper Thorneycroft, Woolston, Southampton, and launched on the 30th October 1940. In November of the same year, it was announced that she would be manned by the RAN, on loan along with HNMS Napier, Nepal, Nizam and Nestor. She was commissioned into the RAN on the 15th September 1941, under the command of Henry M. Burrell RAN.

During the rest of 1941, Norman spent time at Scapa Flow with the Home Fleet and took part in taking a Trades Union Delegation to Iceland. She was then deployed to Russia to carry out submarine patrols in the White Sea, before returning to Woolston for repairs work.

In 1942 she was assigned to the Eastern Fleet to carry out escort duties in the Indian Ocean. On April 1st she took part in the search by Force B, for Japanese warships before being transferred for convoy duties with the Mediterranean Fleet. She then returned to the Eastern Fleet and continued escort duties through 1943.

In January 1944, Norman joined Force A, Eastern Fleet and spent the next two months on exercises before the Fleet joined forces with an American Task Force, and served as a screen for fleet units and US Navy ships on passage to Trincomalee. She then proceeded to to Sydney for a refit, resuming service with the Eastern Fleet in the August. In October she took part in the bombardment of shore targets in the Malacca area. In December she was assigned to support operations in Burma and convoy duties in the Bay of Bengal.

In 1945 Norman was transferred for escort service in the South Pacific, finally returning to Australia after VJ Day.

In October 1945 HMAS Norman reverted to RN control and arrived at Plymouth on 12th December where she was paid-off and placed in Reserve until August 1950 when she transferred to Chatham. Later that year she returned in tow to Devonport where she remained until January 1953 prior to transfer to lay-up at Penarth. She was eventually broken up at Newport, Monmouth on 1st April 1958.

During her service with the Royal Australian Navy, HMAS Norman steamed some 270,000 miles and was underway for over 17,000 hours.

PICTURES

HMAS Norman with Pennant D16 … so must be after March 1945
My Uncle Taff with the crew of the mine sweeper HMAS Norman in 2006
Taff being presented with the Australian White Ensign (signed by the crew) by Commanding Officer LTCDR Tim Watson.


Today, my Uncle lives in Mooroolbark, Victoria. Anybody in that neck of the woods?

Would be grateful if anybody has some high resolution pics of HMAS Norman.

[kookaburra]

Thanks for sharing the story of your uncle Talbot 'Taff' Elliot, Clive, and great to hear of him being acknowledged by the RAN in that way.

Below is a higher resolution copy of the photograph you have, at least.

It was taken on Nov 5, 1945, in Port Phillip Bay, Melbourne, and would be when Norman had just reverted to Royal Navy crewing and control in Sydney, and was on her way back to Britain.

The photograph is taken by the Melbourne ships photographer Allan C. Green [1878-1954] - but, unusually, this appears to be the only this one of Norman in his collection, which is held at the State Library of Victoria.

Clive, by cure coincidence, I have a couple of previously unseen photographs of HMAS Norman on order. They are from the estate of a well-known naval officer here, deceased last year, and have been passed to the Naval Historical Society of Australia [of which I'm a member]. I have ordered copies of them: it has been a while, last October, but from memory they were pretty good - HMAS Norman and a sister ship in Farm Cove Sydney, and some other close-up shot of her. I should have them at the next NHSA meeting, first Monday of the month, and I'll send you a PM when they arrive, if you'd watch for that.

As I say, I can't quite recall just HOW good they were in terms of absoluite clarity, but should be okay, large and scan up well. They were good enouigh nto be framed on this man's wall, anyway.

I hope someone else comes up with some others for you - there should be some good pics of Norman in the IWM, although a first search didn't find them. Cheers, K.

[Dreadnought]

Very much appreciated K .... my sincere thanks.

[kookaburra]

Very much appreciated K .... my sincere thanks.

Not necessary Clive. Elderly uncles who served us all must be attended to.

Anyway, I was slightly mistaken ... here's one more from the Green Collection, so-so midships view.

[Jackaroo]

Clive I thought you might like to these..unless of course you already have them...HMAS Norman (11) and crest


http://usera.ImageCave.com/Jackaroo1/2/HMAS_Norman%202.jpg


http://usera.ImageCave.com/Jackaroo1/2/Crest_Norman.gif.jpg

[kookaburra]

Couple more I've recently come across: ah, and I'm still waiting on the promised couple of unusual photos through the Naval Historical Society here - I missed their last meeting by mischance, but hopefully now at the end of this month.

Incidentally, as you originally asked, I do live in Melbourne, at St Kilda, which can't be too far from Moorooolbark, although I have a blank on exactly where that is just at this moment .

Anyway, a couple more wartime HMAS Norman. Pass cursor over photo for captioning. They're a bit of a mixed bag I'm afraid. The last pic is immediately after Norman's commisioning at Southampton on Sept 15, 1941, when she took the prominent British trade unionist Sir Walter Citrine [later Baron Citrine, 1887-1983] and a Trade Union delegation to Russia, via Archangel, and back.

I think the centre pic, cleaning ship, is off Capetown, which would have been before Norman's Indian Ocean period and the landings on Madagascar, 1942.

[Dreadnought]

Clive I thought you might like to these..unless of course you already have them...HMAS Norman (11) and crest



Thanks Jackaroo, whilst Norman I is the main interest, I am sure my Uncle will be pleased to have a photo of the latest ship after his visit and welcome on board in 2006.

Cheers

[Dreadnought]

Couple more I've recently come across ................


Fantastic K, thanks ever so much. My Uncle will be over the moon with these. He most probably would have been on board when all of these were taken. Very much appreciated.

Cheers

[Snowy's son]

G'day Dreadnaught.

I live in Northern Melbourne and my father was on the Norman during WWII.

I wonder whether your uncle would remember him. Alan (Snowy) Hanger.

Sadly my father passed away a while ago. I've been tring to locate some pictures of the Norman. There's a few available at the Australian National Archive. I'd love to find one of my dad and the Norman. Sadly most of dad's papers are gone for one reason and another.

I know it is a bit late in the piece but would your uncle be attending the ANZAC march in Melbourne on Sunday the 25th?

Anyway would like to make some contact again with one of his shipmates.

Regards.

Andrew.

[Dreadnought]

Hi Andrew,

Have emailed my uncle and will certainly let you know. Thanks ever so much for the info ... much much appreciated.

[Snowy's son]

Hi Clive,

Just got back from the Dawn Service. The National Library has a few photos as well but in reality I think that Kookaburra has got most of the pictures that are easily obtainable from the web of the Norman.

There's a meeting of the N Class Destroyers association on 31 May in the grounds of the Shrine which I'll try to go to.

Cheers,

Andrew

[mick.stoeckel]

My father George Stoeckel served on the Norman as a signalman He past away in 77 but left an album full of photos and post cards of that period.I have since handed the album over to my daughter Unfortunately she resides near Perth and I,m in Cairns. There are photos of Capetown,Durban, Madagascar, Ceylon, Southwest Africa also photos of sailors ashore in Hafia, timber yards in Russia as well as piping aboard the Prince of Norway. (That,s what the caption reads.) Anyway I will try and organise some photos for this site. Regards Mick

[Snowy's son]

Hi Mick, that sounds fantastic.

If you like if they're scanned at a high resolution and e-mailed to me I will change them to a format to fit this site and save them so they can be accessed. Feel free to send mea private message for an e-mail address.

Anything I can do to help.

Cheers,

Andrew

[Dreadnought]

I too, would love to see them Mick ...

Andrew, haven't heard back from my Uncle yet, as soon as I do, I will let you know.

[Snowy's son]

Hi Mick, looking at their respective service cards I think that your dad left the Norman shortly before my dad embarked (early 1943)! Although I thought my hand writing was bad; some of the service card notations are abominable!!!

I’d still love to see the photos though.

[Snowy's son]

Hi there, I'm wondering whether ship's company records would be stored anywhere in Australia?

Or would those records have stayed with ship when it returned to the UK?

[Bear]

G'day Snow, you will find a short history of the ship's time with the RAN here:
http://www.navy.gov.au/HMAS_Norman_%28I%29

If you want more detailed stuff either the Australian War Memorial or the Australian Defense College may have something.

The contact for the N-Class Destroyers Association is:
E Morris 4/57 Lisle St Mt Clarmont 6010 Phone 9384 7253
I'm assuming that is current, it may not be.

[kookaburra]

Clive,

I'm very sorry not to have come through, as promised, with a couple of new photos of HMAS Norman in Sydney Harbour.

I didn't forget it at all.

They were photos from the estate of a well-known senior naval officers here in Melbourne, which had passed to an historical society of which I'm a member, and when offered I was one of a number of members who requested copies, which in due course we would pay for.

Six monthly meetings have since gone by, and nothing has appeared, although the requests have been discussed. I was a new member, and I am now told that this is rather typical of the person charged with the responsibility of getting this done - getting the copies made, that is.

So - I'm now in the lap of the Gods on it, and after so long I've have lost a bit of confidence. I thought it was a firm order and understanding.

However, don't lose faith completely. A couple of other things are happening around the Centenary photostream that look like bringing a whole new range of historical pics on line, and - as Norman is one of the rarer ships for photos, I have this possibility very much in mind.

Meantime, here's pic scanned from a small image in a book that has come up a good deal better than I expected. Sort of consolation prize, really.

Caption says HMAS Norman off Ceylon, 1942. Sorry about the other business. K.

[MelQuick]

Hi Kookaburra

I've got G25 recorded as HMS Nepal.

Mel

[Dreadnought]

Hi Kooks,

No problems at all mate. Thanks for being concerned. I am sure that as when anything pops up you will let me know.

Cheers

[astraltrader]

Hi Kookaburra

I've got G25 recorded as HMS Nepal.

Mel


Jeff like Mel I have that picture listed as HMS Nepal. :confused::confused:

[PHOENIX09]

As listed in Flotilla Organisation 1939-1945 (The Kellys) in Aug 42 the 13 div of the 7th Destroyer Flotilla, Norman- pennant no G49, Nepal- pennant no G25.
The numbers were still the same in Oct 43.

[kookaburra]

Hi Kookaburra

I've got G25 recorded as HMS Nepal.

Mel

Dammit, thanks very much Mel - Terry and Brett too. I did this late at night. The photo is in fact mis-captioned 'HMAS Norman' in the first of Lew Lind's books 'Historic Naval Events of Australia Day by Day' [p63] where this was taken from, but it's corrected in his second book 'Historic Naval Events year by Year.'

I just didn't pick up on the hullnumber. Sorry Clive. Sorry everyone.

[astraltrader]

Easily done Jeff.

I have lost track of the number of pictures I have found to be mis-captioned!

[Tubs]

Hello Clive

I've seen your request re HMAS Norman. I've recently posted a photo of her on the HMS Frobisher thread, post #69. She is alongside a carrier, HMS Formidable I think, so is fairly small in the picture. It is possibly taken at Mombasa, and probably (I think) in 1942.

The picture has turned up in a collection from my late father, who was in the Indian Ocean for two years on the Frobisher.

Tubs

[kookaburra]

Clive,

Not High-res, but did I offer you this pic of HMAS Norman? I meant to. Turned up in a recent book. Oh, and one from the HMAS Cerberus Museum archives.


That other offering, the Historical Society pic from a deceased estate, didn't work out. What can I say - someone there seemed to get a little resentful about the photostream on Flickr. Ah well ...cheers, K.

[Dreadnought]

Fabulous Kooks, I am extremely grateful for your efforts ... really.

[kjeda12]

Hi Clive,
I am the Secretary/Treasurer of the "N" Class Destroyers Association in Western Australia.
We have a memorial wall dedicated to "N" Class sailors here in Augusta. Four surviving sailors are members of our Association and would possibly have photos in their possession. If you would like me to follow up on this or have any further enquiries please contact me. Regards, Kathryn

[Dreadnought]

Hi Kathryn,

Thanks for that. Does your Association just cover Western Australia? My Uncle lives in Victoria (see post #1) ... would he be a member?

I am sure he belongs to an HMAS Norman Association somewhere.

Any information you have would be most welcome.

Kind regards

[kookaburra]

A couple more of HMAS Norman at modest scan quality but useful enough:

The first shows Norman in May 1942 during 'Operation Stream Line Jane,' which was the escorting of troop convoys for the invasion of Vichy French Madagascar [Operation Ironsides].

The second shows HMAS Norman earlier in 1941 at Addu Atoll in the Maldive Islands, still wearing her original camuflage pattern, but its faded and sea worn here.

Both these photos [which I'm just up,loading on Flickr also] appear in the autobiography of Vice Admiral Sir Henry Burrell, who was HMAS Norman's commissioning captain at Southampton on Sept 15, 1941, when the ship immediately made a winter dash to Archangel carrying the British Trade Union Congress leader Sir Walter Citrine. Burrell's autobiography is called 'Mermaids Do Exist' [Macmillan South Melbourne, 1986].

Clive, I have a feeling this second photo was taken by a photographer named Norman Brown, who certainly took many photos on HMAS Norman at some stage, and I was wondering if your uncle might recall him. I'm pretty sure he was the same Norman Brown who became quite a well-known newspaper photographer for the Melbourne Herald later, covered the big race meetings among other things.

I was just a little copyboy then, but he was a very big man, tall, heavy built with a very florid complexion and, well - as I recall - a bit of a drinker's nose. Cheers, K.

[Dreadnought]

Thanks Kooks for your continued interest and posts regarding Norman and my Uncle, and, for the latest photos. I will ask my Uncle about Norman Brown.

Cheers

[kookaburra]

Another one to add to the collection Clive. Its a bit of a guess, but I think this is taken on Norman's first visit to Australia in April 1944, when she underwent a two months refit in Sydney. She is carrying her original G49 hull number and seems to have a couple of patches on her bow plates - that is, in need of a refit. She was next in Australia in March 1945, a month before she joined the British Pacific Fleet, when her hull number changed to D16.

It reverted to G49 again some time after the war. This photo is from the Collection of Graeme Andrews, RAN 1955-1968, RANR 1980. Graeme is a well-known maritime writer in Australia, who has kindly sent me many images [I've down-sized this a little from the very large version appearing my on Flickr Photostream. It's not a hi-res pic at the very large size anyway, and this is probably optimal] . Cheers K.

[Dreadnought]

Thanks again Kooks.

I am pleased to announce that Taff's son David has now joined the Forum (username davidelliot). Welcome aboard cousin. I know he will be delighted with the great response to this thread. Thanks everybody.

I will encourage him to make his first post in the introductions section.

[Snowy's son]

Sad news:

http://www.ballinaadvocate.com.au/story/2011/07/05/n-class-ships-to-be-remembered/

Not sad about the banner, just the rest... :-(

[battlestar]

G'Day All

Here is HMAS Noman's commissioning booklet, as well as a pic of her at ADI in 2001.

Enjoy.

Battlestar

[kookaburra]

I had been meaning to follow through and offer this couple of versions of the same photo: Clive, this is the image that - long, long ago - I had ordered up and promised through the Naval Historical Society - as donated from the Dacre Smythe estate. Well, that initiative fell between the cracks, but the same image has since turned up, as given here, in the RAN Archives.

This would be late 1945, as Norman is carrying her British Pacific Fleet hull number D16: Cheers, K.



hmmmm, just realized that it's way too big, and over-testing the server. Clive, you can get it at full size off my flickr photostream, here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/41311545@N05/5515112835/in/photostream/


and the slightly buckled close-up version of the same image, next to it, here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/41311545@N05/5515805436/in/photostream/

[Dreadnought]

Thanks again Kooks ... I am so very grateful for all the trouble you take to add to my portfolio of my Uncle's ship.

I would really like to buy you a few beers sometime .... who knows ...

Thanks again

[ludsie]

Hi Guys
Great pictures and great resolution

Trent