HMS Roberts (1941), HMS Abercrombie (1942) [Archive]

srcampb

09-02-2010, 05:10

Good evening, all-

Has anyone ever run across a set of hull lines for either of these RN monitors?

I have both editions of Ian Buxton's book "Big Gun Monitors", and the both volumes of the Profile Morskie set on these ships.

Problem: The Profile Morskie hull lines lines on the included plan sheets don't match the shipyard prelaunch pictures in Dr. Buxton's book.

I've bought many of the plans held by the NMM, but those only contain a few cross sections- not really enough to build as good a model as I would like to.

I have an inquiry in to the Plans and Photographs section of the NMM to see if anything additional has surfaced on these ships since I bought the plans many years ago, and thought I would query the forum as well. Any help out there?

Many Thanks!

crabbersnipe

09-02-2010, 19:48

Hi,

I seem to recall once seeing a model of a WWII gun monitor in Model Warships, could well be back in the 1980s or so....but definitely worht the research, absolutely great model it was...

E

Polycell

09-02-2010, 20:49

Hi try here
http://lambert-plans.com/
Fred

srcampb

10-02-2010, 03:59

Thanks for the link to the Lambert plan page, Fred. Didn't see anything on the monitor there, but I surely do wish I had visited there before I started some of my RN destroyer projects!

I'll take a look at the back issues of Model Warships I can find as well.

Again, Thanks to all for the research leads..

Polycell

10-02-2010, 16:00

Have a look here
http://my.att.net/p/s/community.dll?ep=16&groupid=231663&ck=
Half way down this page there is a click here for British warships.
Once in the page scroll down Roberts and Abercrombie are about half way down the page.
Bon chance Fred

srcampb

11-02-2010, 03:21

Found it!

Sent an email to the proprietor to see if they are available, as requested on his web site (holding breath!)

many Thanks!

lamboguy

07-03-2010, 14:23

Hello all,

Just joined, and was going to post pretty much the EXACT same question! :) (Since I run several websites I know that the admins hope that members will use the Search button before posting...)

For Xmas -- obviously because I was a good boy -- I received the Admiralty plans for the Roberts from the National Maritime Museum.

I have another set of plans for the Abercrombie -- and I'm pretty much stunned how different they are, particularly in the actual height/draught of the ship. Here is a link to my comparison.

http://www.400gt.com/misc/plan-comparisons.jpg

The reason I am so surprised is because on the Admiralty hull (body) plan it is clearly written "Roberts (+ for Abercrombie)" -- indicating the hulls should be the same. (at least that's how I read it)

Hopefully the point of this thread is to sort out this discrepancy. If not, I will be glad to start another thread!

Thanks so much,

Fred

srcampb

09-03-2010, 05:23

lamboguy,

I wasn't lucky enough to get them for Christmas, but I just received my copy of the Roberts class body plan from the NMM last week.

I've cut out the stations for a scratch built hull based on them, and it looks very close to the pictures of the launch of HMS Roberts and HMS Abercrombie on the stocks in Ian Buxton's book "Big Gun Monitors".

Is it possible your other set of plans was drawn for a smaller scale working model, where increased hull depth would yield a larger displacement for a given length (allowing for weight of batteries, motors, RC gear, etc)?

I'm going to try something new (to me) and attach a picture of my "hull" so you can see it in three dimesnsions. My apologies up front if I mess things up!

lamboguy

10-03-2010, 13:17

I'd say anything is possible...and I just love what you're doing! That certainly looks like the Roberts hull, definitely "squatter" than the Abercrombie hull I made a few years ago.

You may be right, in that my Abercrombie plans are designed for a working model, so the hull is deeper...but it's also strange that the hull is listed as being deeper (when I search online) as it's listed with a bigger draught -- roughly 14' vs robert's 13'. I'd love it if somebody knew what was really going one with these two ships.

Frankly, I'm going to go ahead with the NMM Roberts (which will end up like yours) -- but I'm still just so curious about whether the Abercrombie was in fact different or not.

That being said, tell me about how you are building this? Card? And what is the scale, that looks longer than the 4 feet or so of the 1/96 NMM plans (or maybe that is a short pool table?!? :confused: )

I'll post some photos later. A few years ago I built a brass "hull/frame thing" for Abercrombie, then built a rough waterline hull from card. I'm just fascinated by the hull -- and that huge gun. Those are the two things that keep drawing me back to these magnificent ships!

Cheers,

Fred

srcampb

11-03-2010, 02:48

Hello again, Fred-

The hull will be 1/4"=1', 1/48 scale. 93+" long, by 22" beam. If I've done my maths right, it ought to displace about 195 pounds when it finally gets in the water.

My set of NMM plans came with a 1/24th scale (1/2"=1') set of stations (huge!!), and a 1/48 scale body plan showing sections, waterlines, and buttocks.

The frames I have cut out will be transferred to plywood, cut out, and attached to a keel piece also sourced from the NMM body plan.

Then we'll plank it up with basswood or balsa, fiberglass then entire thing, and start the superstructures (probably built of sheet styrene).

The barbette armor will be a piece of 7.5" diameter model rocket body, which is almost perfect for the 30'6" prototype diameter of the cylindrical barbette on Abercrombie. Roberts used a twelve sided barbette made up of 8" armor plates- that's one of the several major identification points between the two sister ships.

Abercrombie drew slightly more water (deeper draught) compared to Roberts due to increased deck armor, a larger superstructure that gave more accomodation space and sited the 4" twin AA mounts one deck higher, a slightly thicker armor roof for the 15" turret, and some other minor improvements. I haven't run across anything that describes major hull form changes between the two, though.

If you don't have the book "Big Gun Monitors" By Dr. Ian Buxton, it is a very complete source for information not only for these ships, but for all the classes of monitors the RN built. HIGHLY recommended. After being out of print for quite some years, a new edition was recently printed by Naval Institute Press. There are also two Profile Morskie paperbacks out on this class.

This got to be a long posting- my apologies. Always good to talk to another "monitor fan" though! I'll be happy to help with any questions you might have, if I can.

lamboguy

12-03-2010, 16:04

Excellent!

So are we agreed then, there is very little difference between the Roberts and Abercrombie when it comes to the physical dimensions of the overall hull? And that the Abercrombie hull/frame plan I compared the NMM plans to was most likely enlarged for modeling purposes?

If I can start with that assumption then I feel a better grasp of the situation! :)

Yes, I have the wonderful "Big Gun Monitor" book, but sadly it's packed away with the rest of my library in boxes and in storage, so I can't take a peek. (well, I could, but it would be a huge project). I got the book in England from one of the little book shops near the NMM -- they saw me coming, I think it was in the window, and they would NOT budge from the listed price (something like 50 pounds) -- and it's totally worth it! Wonderful book. And in fact it was there that I started to suspect my Abercrombie plans, as the book has some of the Admiralty frames as illustrations in the book.

You are going to have one cool model there! I'm looking forward to following your build, I hope you keep up with the photos.

Mine is going to be a strange beast, and I may never sort of "build it out." I'm mainly interested in the internal hull arrangement, so I may just leave off the superstructure, or make it detachable. Who knows...

Please tell me, in detail if possible, about your "keel piece also sourced from the NMM body plan" -- I sure don't have one, but then I also didn't buy the complete set of plans. Any information is appreciated as that is, of course, an important piece. :-D

What I'm doing is going by the wonderful "Anatomy of a ship: Dreadnought" book for internal details. And as far as I can see, the keel is simply a strip of plate the length of the ship -- inner and outer. But I'd love more details if you have it.

Nice to see that you're not playing miniature pool here -- a very exciting build!

Fred

mike d

13-03-2010, 02:51

H.M.S. Roberts in\on the pool!:D Good luck with your build and keep us posted!

srcampb

13-03-2010, 05:21

Greetings again, all.

Fred, the "keel piece" I referred to is taken from the profile of the hull. Keel at the bottom, Upper deck edge at the top. The NMM Body Plan I bought is a "Sheer drawing" which has this profile along with the cross sections I've already cut out.

You could also obtain this piece using the drawing on page 147 of the book (first edition, page 189 in the new edition), blown up to the size of the hull you wanted to build

Cut them all out of plywood, glue the cross sections to the keel at right angles, and start planking!

I do think we're on the same page, though. Roberts and Abercrombie had near identical hull forms, as far as I have researched it.

I'll post progress pictures as the build moves forward.

lamboguy

13-03-2010, 12:46

Ok, I get ya. I think I have that drawing, will try to attach it (cellphone shot). It's the sheet marked "Sheer Drawing" and in the middle "Body Plan" -- right?

http://www.400gt.com/misc/IMG01619-20091214-1116.jpg

srcampb

14-03-2010, 04:57

That's the one!

I thought it was intriguing that the plan has the sign off of Sir Stanley V. Goodall, the Director of Naval Construction at the time.

Between that and the John Brown & Company shipyard and Admiralty stamps- I can't wait for someone to question the research on my model :)

lamboguy

14-03-2010, 13:33

Great! So we're in sync, as it were.

I'm going to scan some images of what I think the physical keel might have looked like, from the Dreadnought book.

Now, as I recall, from the "Big Guns" book. Roberts and Abercrombie had riveted hulls? I seem to remember seeing some photos where the closer you look the more you can see lines of rivets on the frame members and plates...?

I haven't really read much in this area -- were all British warships still being riveted together in 1941-42? (I do remember reading at some point that American ships had a weird transition where they were riveted together, then the rivets removed and everything welded up from there! Hope I'm right on that one, and I think it was sort of "mid war" which means probably 1943-44, and not 1941-42)

dave.moscow1

14-03-2010, 21:35

Hi Iam building a model of HMS Roberts 3/16 inch to the foot. I have the full set of builder's drawings and have a selection of photographs from the original negatives, 100+ for HMS Roberts from the John Brown shipyard collection. John Brown's photographed every ship they built from the keel upwards, even under the hull, until the ship left the yard. There are over 40.000+negatives in the John Brown collection held here in Scotland. The hull for Roberts and Abercrombie are both exactly the same. I have listed below where you can access the builder's drawings, albums and negatives, they all have web sites once you are in search for shipbuilding.

NATIONAL ARCHIVES OF SCOTLAND
For John Brown shipyard Negatives-40.000+

University of Glasgow --Business record centre
For John Browns builders drawings and Scotts of Greenock /also other yards

Glasgow City Archives
For Fairfield shipyard/plans +photographs and other shipyards

The Polish books for Roberts/Abercrombie are totaly inacurate. I have no idea where they got the information for the ships plans/ hull. Whoever uses them will have a totally inaccurate model-use Mr Buxton's book this is a first class book. As for the Polish one put it straight in the trash can as it is no use whatsoever

Hope this will help

Dave.

lamboguy

15-03-2010, 01:42

lol -- DAVE I HAVE THE POLISH PLANS!

:-D

That's very funny. But I can see that it's also very true.

All I can say is WOW -- I want to see some of those photos! I'll start searching tomorrow.

Thank you for your most amazing post. This is one of those journeys where you never think you'll find what you're looking for -- then suddenly have more information than you dreamed you'd ever have. (I sure wish more things in life were like that!)

Best regards,

Fred

srcampb

16-03-2010, 05:17

Dave, Fred-

Models of the Roberts class monitors are multiplying faster than the flu virus- this is Great!

I second the thought on the Profile Morskie books; I was thrilled to death when I found them- and then thought as I read them, "hold on, this isn't right is it?" If you get both volumes, the hull lines for the two ships are different in subtle ways, which REALLY confused me until the NMM body and sheer plans came to light.

I, too am going to start diving into the sources you've quoted Dave- Thanks very much for bringing them to light.

I just started cutting the frames out for my 1/48 (1/4"= 1') scale RC model. What I thought would be relatively simple work is coming out harder than I thought. I can't seem to cut a straight line with my band say tonight. But, I'm being picky- I've waited a LONG to build this thing, I want to get it right.

Best of luck to your projects- I'll post some pictures of mine as soon as I get the rest of the frames cut out and dry fitted together.

Scott

whittinr

16-03-2010, 07:48

Hi - My dad who is still alive and well 86 yr old, was on the Abercrombie ship when it was mined in Salerno 1943. Do you know where I can obtain a good photo of the ship I would like to have one done for his birthday in May.

Rita

lamboguy

16-03-2010, 12:11

Hi Scott,

I've run into the same problems, being that I don't make ship models on a regular basis. I'm going to make a jig to hold my hand-saw straight and do it that way. All these powered saws are causing drift of some sort, and these cuts need to be spot on.

Crazy to hear about the variations on the Roberts' theme! I would love to see the differences between Roberts and Abercrombie documented, but I'm sure not going to do it. :) And I think for my model, after seeing the detail of the Roberts' frames, I'm just going to build whatever is on the NNM sheets and not worry about it. If anybody asks I just say "Admiralty Plans -- YOU GOT A PROBLEM WITH THAT??" ;^D

Cheers,

Fred

PS: Rita, when I was a kid I'd just write the NNM and ask for photos of particular ships, they would send me a list back with prices, and I'd purchase the photo that way. Worth a shot! they have a full research department and are used to those requests. Good Luck!

dave.moscow1

16-03-2010, 20:50

Hi Scott & Fred

In the archives there are 42 builders drawings and about 128 or 138 negatives for Hms Roberts yard No 573 ( J.1573) you will find them at the addresses posted on thread 17 forgot to say the ships hull is riveted.

If you look in Mr Buxtons new book you will see some fine exampels of John Browns Photos especially for Roberts, I have about 30 prints taken from the negs.

Good luck

Dave

lamboguy

16-03-2010, 22:56

Hi Dave,

I've searched those sites (just tried National Archives of Scotland again) and just don't come up with anything. I get plenty of hits for Roberts and Abercrombie and J.1573 (for example) but it's all people and no ships. Am I doing something wrong?

Also, thanks for the "rivet" info -- excellent! I thought that was the case -- I think I saw that in the Big Gun Monitor book as well -- but wasn't sure.

Oh wait a minute...what is "Mr Buxtons new book?"

Thanks! (lots of questions today :)

Fred

dave.moscow1

18-03-2010, 17:05

Hi Fred

Go to -National Archives of Scotland -then to 'site search' put in 'shipbuilding' then scroll down to 'guide to shipbuilding records' this will tell you where things are then go to 'contact us' - ENQUIRIES. You can email them to find out what negatives and photographs are available. The new book is Big Gun Monitors you will find John Browns photos. Let me know how you get on.

Dave

lamboguy

20-03-2010, 11:55

There it is, very interesting:

http://www.nas.gov.uk/guides/shipbuilding.asp

Clearly a goldmine of information -- thank you!

Also, I see the new edition of Big Gun Monitors -- may have to get that for the expanded info, and to save wear on my old copy!

Fred

bolitho

14-06-2010, 18:08

Hi lamboguy
my name is Walter, I'm writing from Germany. I have built this hull over the last months, but I'm not sure to be on the right way. I have used the polish plans. The coloured parts of the superstructure are upscaled from a paper work model.
Best regards Walter

lamboguy

15-06-2010, 17:43

That looks great! Man, it looks like you're having fun :)

I'd like to get to that point, but I'm still messing around with drawings...maybe I always will be (takes up less room)

If you're using the polish plans my guess is that your hull is a tiny bit too tall. I'm going to go over to my 2 sets of plans and measure the difference...

ok, to give you an idea...from the bottom of the keel to the main deck at the bow of the ship (as far forward as you can go on the keel):

polish plans: 15cm
admiralty plans: 9.5cm

at the stern, where the flat part of the keel ends (#17 on polish, frame 84 on admiralty) up to the main deck:

polish plans: 10cm
admiralty plans: 8.5cm

ie: the admiralty hull is really quite flat in comparison. Now the scales are different, admiralty is 1/8" = 1 foot (isn't that 1:96 or something?) and the polish is 1:100. But what that means is that the hull is even flatter than the numbers above, because the admiralty hull is about 2" longer than the polish.

So your hull is probably a bit too tall, all things being equal.

Still, looks great to me :) -- I actually prefer the look of the taller hull, looks more proportional to the rest of the ship

Fred

PS: I'll upload a comparison of the frames later

dave.moscow1

15-06-2010, 20:11

Hello Walter
Had a look at your post. Unfortunately the Polish book you have used for your monitor are no use whatsoever, there is nothing correct in their drawings (see my post 17) if possible use Builder's drawings. I would suggest you purchase the new book "BIG GUN MONITORS" by Ian Buxton, it can be found at Amazon website or WH Smith. I think I have pictures somewhere for my hull, I will see if i can find them.

Regards
Dave

lamboguy

15-06-2010, 20:15

Ok, hopefully this will help those trying to understand the difference between the admiralty plans and the polish plans (hope this works). There is literally no comparison, the polish plans are maybe for a "stylized working model"??

Fred

bolitho

16-06-2010, 18:45

Hi Dave and Lamboguy thanks for your replys, I have Ian Buxtons book at home it's really a wonderful book. The problem is that there is not a set of the frames and the lines in the book. I am very interested to see the pictures of your hull, Dave.
I have seen the picture "plan-comparisons" in an earlier thread in this forum. The frames witch are marked as Hobby plan are not the same as the frames in the polish plans. The big difference are the hull's lines. In the meantime I have bought some plans at the NMM in London and probably I will start to build a new hull.
Best regards from Germany, Walter

lamboguy

16-06-2010, 19:36

Very good, that's the best way to get it right, the NMM plans (which are the admiralty plans). Maybe there are several different sets of Polish plans -- I have no idea.

But the internal "Plan of Hold and Sections -- as fitted" from the NMM (admiralty plans) are just superb. I think that's the real plan to get the project right -- and they should fit with the General Arrangement Profile, etc.

The NMM plans are the ones to get. (Plus they look great up on the wall!)

Cheers,

Fred

dave.moscow1

06-07-2010, 21:37

Found photos for Roberts hull, they were taken a while ago. I had put them on a disc and misplaced the disc. The hull is plank on frame (plywood frames and yellow pine planks) then reinforced with fibreglass for strength then rubbed down then the hull plated. By the way, Walter, what monitor are you building? Hope the photos came thru ok

Regards

Dave

lamboguy

06-07-2010, 21:57

Wow, that looks great Dave! That's it, a very, very "flat" lower hull. So that's off the Admiralty plans? It sure looks like it.

Fred

bolitho

16-07-2010, 15:54

Dave,
many thanks for the picutures, great work! In the meantime I've got the bodyplan from the NMM and will start a new hull soon. I'm building the Roberts. By the way, how do you make the guns especially the 4- and 8- barrel 2-pdrs? Are there any kits available? I have bought a lot of drawings from John Lamberts, really detailed, but if you have a real one in hands it would be easier.
Best regards, Walter

srcampb

12-08-2010, 05:20

Hello again, all.

It's been a while since I've posted- very inconvenient how work interferes with boat building at times!

Dave-

excellent looking hull! I can only hope mine turns out as well as that.

Walter-

My model is literally being built around 1/48th scale gun kits made by Sirmar in the UK. The 4" mounts are available, as are quad 2-pounders. I plan on combining two quad kits to make up my octuple mount. I'll attach a couple of pictures of the 4 inch mounts and the quad 2 pounder on my "Work In Progress" 1/48 scale L class destroyer HMS Lance.

The frames for my hull are about 60% complete- after I replace the broken blade on my band saw i'll get them done and then post a couple of pictures.

More soon!

medway508

12-08-2010, 22:31

Hope you already have the fittings as Sirmar is now out of business.

srcampb

13-08-2010, 03:58

Well, that's depressing- have some, but not everything I need yet.

It figures that when I found the correct hull plans form NMM, the fittings supply would dry up.

dave.moscow1

19-08-2010, 18:33

Hello Walter

Good to see you got the correct body plan. I hope you're not using the Polish plan for rest of your build. I purchased all my Admiralty/builder's plans from my local archives a lot cheaper than the NMM and if you have a student card you would get them half price. I would suggest you start collecting photos this will help with your build.

I wont be making my guns till after the new year - they will be made from brass /plastic. Have a look at this web site (www.dockmuseum.org.uk) this is where the VICKERS photo archives are held, the photos are suberb and reasonably priced for prints and cheaper if put on a disc - they show you how complicated the guns are.

I was told last week that SIRMAR is up for sale, there is another maker of warship fittings JOHN R HAYNES he might be able to help.

Regards Dave

AlainFr

11-09-2010, 09:19

Hello everybody:)

I'm interesting to build a model of the HMS Roberts but i need of your help for the research of the plan

So, i have the polish plans of Profile Morskie, but if i have good understand, these plans are not so accurate?!:rolleyes: specially for the hull but too for the supertructure?.

I have the last book of Ian Buxton ''Big Guns Monitors'', it's a good reference apparently. I have too many plans of weapons from John Lambert.

I want to know if it's necessary to have the NMM plans for build a good model?:confused:
But can you help me for the reference of this plans and how to buy them???:D

Thanks in advance

Alain