HMS Indefatigable: 1909-1916

[dpratt123]

Well, Uncle Fred and the Indefatigable are both still out there haunting the sea since the Battle of Jutland in 1916. God Rest the souls of all who perished there ! I am looking for descendants any of those lost, and would be ecstatic to hear from anyone descended from or otherwise related to Frederick Pratt.

[HMS Bergamot]

This ship was lost at Jutland, the first of 3 British battle cruisers to be blown up by German artillery.

I have read that there were only two survivors, and that they initially held up the badly wounded Captain of the ship before he died in the water. The two survivors were picked up by the Germans and spent the next two years as POW's.

Has anybody out there ever seen the two survivors reports, and the last moments of this ship?

Regards,

R.

[tonclass]

As part of the 2nd Battlecruiser Squadron, under the command of Captain C. F. Sowerby at the Battle of Jutland on 31 May 1916, she was hit by 28 cm (11 inch) shells from Von der Tann. She was hit first by two shells in the "X" magazine area, blowing out her bottom and causing her to fall out of formation, sinking by the stern. Following more hits in the area of 'A' turret, the forward magazine exploded, and the ship sank quickly, killing all but two—Leading Seamen Falmer and Elliot—of her crew of 1,017. According to one of the survivors, Captain Sowerby also survived the sinking, but died of his wounds before he could be rescued.

Taken from Wikipedia

[astraltrader]

Richard - the only picture that I have ever seen of the Indefatigable blowing up was literally a plume of black smoke on the horizon.
I am sure I have it somewhere, but I cannot lay my hands on it for the moment...

[John Brown]

Hi Richard

You already have the names of the two survivors, they were....

Able Seaman Elliot and I have Falmer as a Leading Signalman.

I came across this picture which was captioned 'Indefatigable Sinking'


Regards...John

[HMS Bergamot]

Yes, I've seen that picture, probably the only one, which was taken from the rear turret of New Zealand.

There is a wealth of survivors reports from Queen Mary, several, incluing gunnery officer Danreuther, from Invincible, but I've never seen anything from the two off of Indefatigeable, except little hints, such as holding Sowerby up until he died.

I think I'm after their actual words, if that's at all possible.

Regards

[astraltrader]

Yes indeed -that was the picture that I was referring to...

[historydavid]

Richard, have a look at this thread http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=23251&st=0&start=0 about half way down page 1 there is a discussion on whether there were 2 or 3 survivors.

[HMS Bergamot]

Fantastic thread, David, many thanks.

Richard

[thomas]

Hi Richard

You already have the names of the two survivors, they were....

Able Seaman Elliot and I have Falmer as a Leading Signalman.

I came across this picture which was captioned 'Indefatigable Sinking'


Regards...John

Sir My uncle was on the indefatigable which sank in 1916 he was 17 yrs old his nane was John Alexader anderson c.c can you tell me what the c.c stands for,no one seems to know.
Kind regards Thomas.

[HMS Bergamot]

Written by Signaller C. Falmer, HMS Indefatigable.

"The message came up for someone to go aloft to clear the flags. I went up, took my sea boots off first, climbed out the foretop, went up the 'Jacob's' ladder' right to the very top. I unfurled the flag and I sat on the wireless yard looking around, naturally watching the firing."

"There was a terrific explosion aboard the ship - the magazines went. I saw the guns go up in the air just like matchsticks - 12" guns they were - bodies and everything. She was beginning to settle down. Within half a minute the ship turned right over and she was gone. I was 180 feet up and I was thrown well clear of the ship, otherwise I would have been sucked under. I was practically unconscious, turning over really. At last I came up on top of the water. When I came up there was another fellow named Jimmy Green and we got a piece of wood. He was on one end and I was on the other end. A couple of minutes afterwards some shells came over and Jim was minus his head - so I was left on my lonesome."

"There was nothing to be seen, only the 5th battle squadron coming along. They started to open fire and the German shells were dropping short. I could feel them myself in the water - my feet, my legs. They went and about half an hour later four German cruisers came along so I ducked my head down, because, probably, if they had seen me they would have put a shot in at me - they would have done, to put you out of your misery, you see. Then they cleared off and it turned dark. There wasn't a sound, nobody near me. It was pitch dark, I'd given up all hope practically - I let go once but I struggled back again quick. Between half past two and three all of a sudden I could hear something coming towards me. I gazed up and it was a destroyer. They stopped, two German sailors got down on a fender, grabbed me by the shoulders and pulled me aboard. I didn't remember nothing until the next morning. When I came to I was in the engine room, they were mopping me down with waste - I was smothered in fuel oil."

[designeraccd]

The "glories" of war...NONE! Suggested reading for jihadists everywhere...guess it wouldn't help tho......

Funny, but most people who have been in war/shot at, tend to recognize it for what it really is. Very graphic description, to see a 100 or so lives snuffed out in seconds; most certainly not a nice expierence. DFO :eek:

[John Brown]

Sir My uncle was on the indefatigable which sank in 1916 he was 17 yrs old his nane was John Alexader anderson c.c can you tell me what the c.c stands for,no one seems to know.
Kind regards Thomas.

Thomas

Welcome to the forum.

It would appear from your Uncle's entry in the Commonwealth War Graves Commission records, the letters cc stand for 'Carpenters Crew'.

You can view the record yourself here.....

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=3050519

I hope this helps and good luck with your research.


Regards......John

[thomas]

Hi John,
Thank you for your prompt reply,I have looked at the web site you suggested
it has given me information I didnt know about,thank you once again.
Kind regards Thomas.

[John Brown]

Hi John,
Thank you for your prompt reply,I have looked at the web site you suggested
it has given me information I didnt know about,thank you once again.
Kind regards Thomas.

Thomas

You are most welcome.

If you haven't already seen it, you will find a casualty list for the ship here...

http://www.northeastmedals.co.uk/britishguide/jutland/hms_indefatigable_casualty_list_1916.htm

Your uncle is listed but there is no more information given about him than you now already have.


Regards...John

[thomas]

Hi John,
Yes I have seen that site,as you say not much infomation there.
I got more from your email which I am grateful.
Regards Thomas.

[Benbow]

Wreck Photos from Jutland, Indefatigable and others.

http://www.periscopepublishing.com/images/Jutland%20gallery%20pages/Jutland%20exhibition.htm


After viewing the wrecks of Jutland click on "Galleries for some interesting photographs of Uboats, Komet,Deadlight wrecks and also the Britannic .

[Theletterwriter]

I am looking for information on my great grandfather Dugald Wood 7684S RNR who was a stoker when HMS Indefatigable was sunk at the Battle of Jutland in May 1916. He was born in October 1880 and would appear to have enlisted in July 1915. I recently found out through the Glasgow Evening Times archives that he worked in the Tradeston (Glasgow) Gas Works so that will possibly explain why he became a stoker on the ship.

I know some of the details of the Indefatigable's service with the Royal Navy prior to Jutland. I would like to obtain a copy of my grandfather's service record if possible and to find out if he had some other connection with the Navy prior to the 1915 entlistment.

Any other information would be very helpful and most welcome. If I go quiet over the next few days, it is only because of a business trip and not because I am ignoring any replies from the forum. Finally, thank you for the messages of welcome posted on the forum today.

DRW

[Theletterwriter]

Not sure if I can reply to my thread but I am trying to post a photograph of Dugald Wood and his family.

DRW67986

[John Brown]

Thanks for sharing the photo with us DRW. I expect one of the other members will 'clean it up' for you shortly and get it looking good as new.

I assume you have seen your great grandfather's entry in the CWGC records but just in case, here it is......

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=3039258

As you have his service number there should be little problem obtaining his records. If you need information on how to go about this, there is plenty of advice already posted on this forum.


Good luck


Regards...John

[Theletterwriter]

Hi John

Thanks for the reply. I have had a trawl through the NRA but seem to be hitting a brick wall. A telephone call to them is in order to see if they hold any records about Dugald Wood.

As I have never been connected with the Royal Navy personally, could you give me some guidance? My great grandfather was RNR. Would this mean he would serve in the Navy for a certain time in any one year but then return to his occupation on completion of the service period? If so, this is something that would be of great interest as we know nothing about why he joined the Navy.

Best wishes

Douglas

[GilligansIsland]

I had a bit of a look around too Douglas & not found anything either, maybe some clerical error, I went bonkers trying to find any info on my grandfather at first but found it was a spelling mistake, all the best

James

[Theletterwriter]

Hi James

Thank you for trying. It is a lesson for all new forum members searching for records to check the spelling of names. Regarding the name Dugald, there are at least four variations of how to spell his name. The name Wood can also erroneously be recorded as Woods. When I was initially searching, I also used his middle name which I subsequently found was not recorded on the CWGC records and did not find anything.

Best wishes

Douglas

[John Brown]

Hi John


As I have never been connected with the Royal Navy personally, could you give me some guidance? My great grandfather was RNR. Would this mean he would serve in the Navy for a certain time in any one year but then return to his occupation on completion of the service period? If so, this is something that would be of great interest as we know nothing about why he joined the Navy.



Douglas


Sorry Douglas

I can't offer any more info on this but I'm sure other members will be able to.


Regards...John

[Theletterwriter]

A quick update on my search for my great grandfather's records. I telephoned the NRA and it would appear that the records are not available on line. For anyone else in a similar position, I have been told my great grandfather's records may be in BT377/26 or ADM 170 and it will require a visit to Kew to confirm. Alternatively, I could have a researcher to do the leg work. The latter file is reported to record any pension given to the spouse and family members.

Douglas

[GilligansIsland]

Hi Douglas, did they have an explanation why it wasnt available for viewing?, just curious

James

[Theletterwriter]

Hi James

The NRA could not offer an explanation why the records were not available on line. I know some Army records from the First World War were destroyed during a bombing raid in the Second World War but I do not know if this also applied to Naval records. The fact that my great grandfather was RNR is also still a puzzle to me. The NRA said that if he was RNR, he would possibly have been a merchant seaman at some point.

We have copies of his marriage lines and some of his childrens' birth certificates and his jobs ranged from telephone linesman (which seemed to me to be quite a "modern" job for 1899), an iron nut maker to working in the Tradeston Gas Works. It may be possible he had been in the Merchant Navy at some point although I am not sure how I can confirm that.

Best wishes

Douglas

[GilligansIsland]

hmm, interesting Douglas, keep on searching, it's taken me years to get some info on family, great relief when you find it though!

I found 2 records of seamen with the name of Wood in 1902 & 1912, the one from 1902 was aged 21 on a large ship called the "Canadian", the downside is both of the seamen have the Christian name of David, or that's what the record shows anyway, but I've found errors & name changes in my research of family, but these fellows are probably not a hit, though you just never know

James

ps, found some more seamen with the name of Wood, did your grandfather have a preferred middle name or other that you might be aware of, even an initial?

[Theletterwriter]

James

My great grandfather's name was Dugald Gillies Wood and as far as I know he used his first name. I assume naval records did not record his middle name as he is recorded on the CWGC site as Dugald Wood and on the Portsmouth memorial as D. Wood. He was born in October 1880 in Glasgow.

Best wishes

Douglas

[Theletterwriter]

This is a long shot but about 40 years ago, I remember being shown a book by a friend of mine in which there was a picture of the crew of the battlecruiser HMS Indefatigable. From memory, the picture showed crew members on the deck of the ship and there was some sort of presentation or event. This may have been in a series of books about the Great War although I am not sure about this. To be honest, at this stage in my life, I am not sure about anything!!

I would like to obtain a copy of this photograph if possible so any help on this would be appreciated.

Douglas

[jbryce1437]

Thats a tall order, but nothing is impossible. Hope someone can turn up trumps.

Jim

[Theletterwriter]

Hi Jim

It is a tall order but I am interested in this, and any crew photograph of the Indefatigable. Reading the threads in the forum has made me happy to see there are a number of people who had family on the Indefatigable but who have been drawn to the forum to express their interest in finding more information. I am no different.

Best wishes

Douglas

[Theletterwriter]

I have been able to track down my great grandfather’s naval records. As I had no luck with the NRA, I contacted the Fleet Air Arm Museum via their website www.fleetairarm.com and they confirmed that they hold the original RNR Record Cards for stokers (S) of the RNR. There is a search fee of £ 16 and a 30 pence charge per A3 sheet including postage.

His records give his date of birth, parents names, his height, complexion, chest size, colour of eyes, his address and his wife’s name. The date of enrolment was 3 July 1915 and he left from Glasgow on 12 July 1915 and arrived at D (is this Devenport??) on 14 July 1915. He arrived on board the Indefatigable on 7 August 1915. At this record there are the letters D (D.L). Does anyone know what this means??

His records also indicate that the Director of Greenwich Hospital Admiralty was told in 1924 that no service in the Mercantile Marine could be traced. This still poses the question why he was RNR??

The only other information is the recording of some payments to my great grandmother in the early 1920’s from the Naval Prize Money. Does anyone have any idea what this was??

So if you are having problems finding your Naval ancestor at the NRA, the Fleet Air Arm Museum is worth a try.

Douglas

[qprdave]

Launching of HMS Indefatigable

Reported in The Times on 28th October 1909

[Don Boyer]

Dave:

This is a particularly important historical article in this "The Launching Of" series because of the insight given into the thinking of the time regarding what became the "battlecruiser." Truly an important article concerning the development of the armored ship in the Dreadnought era with some revealing commentary.

"The Indefatigable belongs to the cruising class of warship, that is to say, the class in which speed and "enduring mobility' are regarded as the more important among the various attributes of war worthiness."

This is referring to the fact that the Indefatigable was more an upgrade to the armored cruiser concept (Powerful, Minotaur, etc.) than it was a close relative of the Dreadnought. But the perception here is that she was made so powerful that her attributes made her "fit...to fight in the line of battle," meaning since she possessed Dreadnought class armament she could serve in the battleship role. "The Indefatigable and her sisters may be more appropriately described as cruising battleships."

Herein lies the seeds of the destruction of the battlecruisers at Jutland. Their armor could not withstand the impact of the major caliber shells tossed their way, so they were really NOT fit to fight in the battleline, despite their armament, but the public's and the navy's perception was that they could fit that role because of their big battleship sized guns.

They were more like the Powerful and Minotaur than they were the Dreadnought, but the flash of the big guns blinded people to their limitations until it was too late to correct the misperception. The "battlecruiser" was just not one of Fisher's better ideas. Yet no nation of the time could have afforded the solution to having a fast wide-ranging ship with the capabilities they thought the battlecruisers had. That took the "fast battleship" concept of the 1930s, where you were talking of ships weighing a standard minimum of 35,000 tons, not 20,000.

These are such great articles, revealing as they do the thinking of the shipbuilder's and naval architects of the day as well as the general public's views that you should maybe gather them under a single "The Launching Of...." thread! Especially as I know you have dozens more in line to keep us ship aficionados busy. :)

Regards,

[patroclus]

Herein lies the seeds of the destruction of the battlecruisers at Jutland. Their armor could not withstand the impact of the major caliber shells tossed their way, so they were really NOT fit to fight in the battleline, despite their armament, but the public's and the navy's perception was that they could fit that role because of their big battleship sized guns.
,


It should be borne in mind that the reason for the destruction of the British BCs at Jutland was not their inadequate armour but failure to use the precautions against flash that were available to them and having too many cordite charges lying around in aid of increasing the rate of fire of their guns.

[astraltrader]

Two of my favourite photographs I have of this fine battleship.

[Don Boyer]

patroclus: You are spot on...I had forgotten that bit. I am sure that was THE major contributor. Skimping on the armor purely for a gain in speed was no thrill from a design standpoint either, however. Hood, for example, was using all her shell handling protective gear and had improved armor protection: it bought her nought against a much more powerful opponent than was faced at Jutland.

Regardelss of whether it was armor or handling issues, the battlecruiser idea was much less than what it appeared to be in the mind of Fisher or on paper. The newspaper article illuminates the mis-conception from the start.

Thanks for the reminder to go back and read my books first!!! :)
Regards