SMS Graf Spee and the Phoenix

[The Sailor]

We all remember the old movie, "Battle of the River Plate".
I first saw it as a boy at the old open air picture gardens.
I was the Pan novel fiend in those years. I read Pan war books all night and couldn't get up for school.
Ajax, Acillies and Exeter. Stiring names that went into history.
In the movie, the Graf Spee was depicted by the old USS Phoenix. You remember the Phoenix, she used to hang around with HMAS Australia shooting at the odd Jap kamakazi.
Well Old Phoenix got sold to the Argentine Navy after the war and was re named General Belgrano.
A twist of fate here found the General Belgrano meeting with the Royal Navy at the Falklands and being sent to the bottom by HMS Conqueror.

[Batstiger]

Hi again Sailor.
I hope you don't mind but I would like to put you right on one or two points as regards "The Battle Of The River Plate"
You are on my territory here as I played apart (albeit as an extra) in the Film.It was filmed in the Med in 1955 and I was on HMS Battleaxe at the time a Weapon class destroyer, she was one of the camera ships along with the cruiser HMS Birmingham. The USS Salem took the part of the Graf Spey, the cruiser Sheffield took the part of the Ajax. The Indian cruiser Delhi took the part of the Achilles. Actually she took her own part as the Achilles was sold to the Indian navy and renamed the Delhi. The cruiser Jamaica took the part of the Exeter and the three funnelled cruiser Cumberland played herself.
The pictures shown are as follows:-

USS Salem as the Graf Spey.
HMS Ajax.
HMS Achilles.
HMS Exeter.
HMS Cumberland.

Sheffield played Ajax.
Jamaica played Exeter.
Battleaxe Camera ship.
Birmingham Camera ship.
Film crew on the Battleaxe.
Regards Bob.

[The Sailor]

I say Bob, think you might have blown me out of the water what?
I just checked the site below and found it was the Salem.

I think I'm getting past it.


http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0048990/

By the way, you put some effort into your addition. Interesting pics.

[A red faced Sailor scurries away behind some bushes]

[Batstiger]

Don't worry about it. If you look closely through the threads you will see that I have been put right on more than one occasion!

Bob.

[stewart mcloughlin]

As you have brought up another of my casualty connections, which I shall come back to for assistance at some future date no doubt, can I just ask a question, actually two, please?

To finish off the tale above, was USS Salem sold off to the Argentinians or was it Phoenix or some other ship that was later named the Belgrano.

With regards to Ajax, my casualty was on board on 12 October, 1940, when she was engaged in the Med. on convoy escorts. He is listed in the casualty list as a Lieut. "Py/Instructor". What was a "Py/I." please? He had been a schoolteacher prior to enlisting if that is relevant.

Bob, was that you shouting, "Target!!! Bearing , Green 30!!!" Looks familiar.
Regards
Stewart McLoughlin

[Batstiger]

It wasn't me Stewart I was a "Ping Bosun" (far too refined for shouting!)
It was the USS Phoenix that was palmed off to the Argies, the USS Salem was donated as a museum ship in October 1994.

Bob.

[Batstiger]

A few pictures of the Graf Spey after the Battle and before her scuttling ending up with the funeral of Captain Hans Langsdorff.

[herakles]

So the USS Phoenix became the Belgrano then? How extraordinary.

Even more extraordinary than the knowledge that British ships in the Falklands war were attacked by French made Exocet missiles.

[AlZictorini]

Did you know USS Phoenix was one of the few ships to survive the attacks on Pearl Harbour?

AlZ

[cissystar650]

On the subject, here's a photo from Granddads collection...with caption "This was the Graf Spee"

[John Brown]

Alz

Not sure what to say other than....Yes :-)


regards...john

[Harley]

So the USS Phoenix became the Belgrano then? How extraordinary.

Even more extraordinary than the knowledge that British ships in the Falklands war were attacked by French made Exocet missiles.

And if we ever go to nuclear war Britain will be relying on U.S. built Trident missiles. At least the torpedoes which took out "Belgrano" were (presumably) British-built!

Speaking of which, I do hope the 6-inch shells which forced "Graf Spee" into port were British-made and not "Made in America" so early in the war!

Harley

[kathryn]

Good evening. Now I now that in the film you mention my father's ship played itself. Well I will certainly have to watch the film now. Luckily my daughter loves black and white films. By the way this forum is rather complicated, I just hope I am sending the right message to the right peron. Kathy

[The Sailor]

In the film, the Cumberland joins the other three ships at the end of the battle. There is a marvelous little footage of her arriving from the Falklands and sailing on by the others with all onboard cheering.

[kathryn]

Pardon me for being daft. You mention the Cumberland in the last footage of a film - I thought that the Cumberland was scrapped in the late 50's. Is it that the name of the ship was used again? Kathy (Ronald May's daughter)

[The Sailor]

In the movie "Battle of the River Plate", made in the fifties, Cumberland played herself.

Ships used
HMS Achilles played by herself (INS Delhi)
HMS Exeter played by HMS Jamaica
HMS Ajax played by HMS Sheffield
Admiral Graf Spee played by USS Salem
HMS Cumberland (which joined after the main battle) played by herself
HMS Battleaxe and HMS Birmingham were used as camera ships.

[John Brown]

Pardon me for being daft. You mention the Cumberland in the last footage of a film - I thought that the Cumberland was scrapped in the late 50's. Is it that the name of the ship was used again? Kathy (Ronald May's daughter)

Kathy

The film featuring the actual Cumberland was made in 1956, 2 or 3 years before she was scapped. You may be interested to know that my uncle, Sydney Wilson, was onboard HMS Ajax during the battle,

Regards.....John

[The Andrew]

Good evening. Now I now that in the film you mention my father's ship played itself. Well I will certainly have to watch the film now. Luckily my daughter loves black and white films. By the way this forum is rather complicated, I just hope I am sending the right message to the right peron. Kathy

Interesting Freudian typo Kathryn, '...right peron...'. Juan Peron, as you know, was one-time President of Argentina...!

[mike d]

Great posts everyone on an interesting subject! Thank you very much to Batstiger for the pics of Graff Spee. I don't think I have seen any of them before.All of the photos of Spee I have ever seen showed her in peacetime light grey.The few pictures I have seen of her during the river Plate action seemed (to me) to be a shade of wartime medium or dark grey. In your pics she is clearly sporting a camouflage pattern.
An interesting side-bar to Pearl Harbour survivor USS Phoenix, the late actor Jason Robards was a member of her crew and was present on Dec. 7.

[Kevin Denlay]

Speaking of which, I do hope the 6-inch shells which forced "Graf Spee" into port were British-made and not "Made in America" so early in the war!Harley

It is interesting to note that the 8" 'Japanese' shell fired by a Japanese heavy cruiser that knocked HMS Exeter out of the battle line during the Battle of the Java Sea (on 27th Feb, 1942), and which subsequently contributed to her doom, had the following markings on the base plate; "Vickers Armstrong 1926".

Fragments of the shell were found in her boiler room the next day while under repair in Surabaya and the markings were again confirmed in recent discussions with survivors from HMS Exeter.

K

[astraltrader]

Surely if that were the case the Japanese must have used those shells in other ships as well. Although the close links between the RN and the IJN were well past their zenith by 1926 there were still some ties/links remaining so it has to be put down to using old stocks. For instance there were many cases of RN ships using WW1 shells during WW2...

[Old Strawberry]

Just for a bit of extra information.
RFA Olna (Old Olna) played the geman Oiler Altmark.
RFA Fort Duquesne played the Merchant vessel Tacoma.

[John Odom]

In Panama in 1941, we used to see shiploads of scrap from the east coast headed for Japan. Dad used to say, " Mark my word, we'll see that stuff comming back as bombs and bullets."
We did!

[astraltrader]

For my 2000th post I celebrate by posting this picture of Graf Spee...

[vivian]

Hey, Happy 2000th Terry, that must make you "First Sea Lord" by now. LOL.

[astraltrader]

Thanks Vivian! I think the admiral of the Fleet [Kc] has claim to that post!:D
I am happy to be a moderator and do my bit for the forum.

[alanbenn]

Terry, as a relative newcomer Congrats on your 2000th posting, the forum I'm sure is delighted with your contributions, in particular the huge amount of attachments you must have provided in the 2000 posts.

Keep up the excellent work.

Best wishes
Alan

[astraltrader]

Thanks a lot alan - To be fair as a moderator [as well as a greeter and a thanker!] I am bound to rack up a large number of posts but thank you for your kind words. Out of interest as of today in the six months since joining this great forum I have uploaded 4,364 images of which at least half have had to be scanned in. I can hear the groans now from certain directions, but that is a small amount compared to the ones I haven`t!

Anyway heres to the next six months!!

[bd popeye]

"Battle of the River Plate". Loved that movie. It was one of the first naval films I enjoyed as a child. I was about 10 or 11 when I saw it on Tv. I was fascinated by the Germans scuttling their own ship. But many years later I learned they did the same in WWI..For some reason I felt sorry for the captian of the Graf Spee.

Great story ...great film..

[herakles]

"Battle of the River Plate". Loved that movie. It was one of the first naval films I enjoyed as a child. I was about 10 or 11 when I saw it on Tv. I was fascinated by the Germans scuttling their own ship. But many years later I learned they did the same in WWI..For some reason I felt sorry for the captian of the Graf Spee.

Great story ...great film..

My thoughts exactly. I always felt the German captain was portrayed as acting decently. I presume in real life he actually did.

[astraltrader]

He did.
It had been made clear that Hitler expected him to fight to the bitter end.
He was not prepared to lead his men on a suicide mission.

[designeraccd]

The movie was very good, saw it with my dad when it made it to this side of the Atlantic. The movie really helped kick my budding interest in warships into overdrive. A few years later I started scratch building my little fleet, like the 3 "pocket battleship" models shown!

Of course an interesting sidelight was the appearance of "M" as the Captain, IIRC, of the Africa Shell. An excellent and accurate portrait of naval history. DFO :)

[billbuntintosser]

Just inherited my wifes Uncles photos and other bits and bobs. Here is a collection of photos of the Graf Spee going down. Only small prints so sorry in advance for poor quality.

Bill

[Dave Hutson]

Great photos nevertheless Bill.

I know they were the enemy but what magnificent ships they were, Graf Spee, Bismarck, Scharnhorst etc. They should have run circles round us but our hundreds of years experience came through and their fate was inevitable under that madman Hitler and his Nazi regime.

Dave H

[kc]

I've probably posted this before, but for those who missed it, the link below takes you to a page we made displaying the entire personal photo album of one of the men of the Graf Spee. It taks you through what presumably is his training (ok, admittedly not all that interesting for ship fans) but then has some cracking photos of the ships her served on, plus latterly the Graf Spee. I suspect none of them have been seen in public until we put them online.

http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/admiral_graf_spee_photos.htm

[tonclass]

Here's a still from the movie, of HMS CUMBERLAND. You can see the prototype gun on her stern.

[Dave Hutson]

Thanks for that Rik ---- for years everyone who saw the picture knew her as the gunless wonder ---- which was a pity in such an epic movie ---- a bit like the rolex in the chariot chase of Ben Hur

Dave H

[chris westwood]

So the USS Phoenix became the Belgrano then? How extraordinary.

Even more extraordinary than the knowledge that British ships in the Falklands war were attacked by French made Exocet missiles.
and british aircraft were attacked by british made tigercat missiles. Parts of the exocet were uk made also.

[Don Boyer]

It wasn't me Stewart I was a "Ping Bosun" (far too refined for shouting!)
It was the USS Phoenix that was palmed off to the Argies, the USS Salem was donated as a museum ship in October 1994.

Bob.
Not only was the USS Phoenix a survivor of the Pearl Harbor attack (undamaged -- she was anchored in the very north end of the harbor) at the time she was sunk she was the last active survivor of Pearl Harbor. Only one ship remains from that day -- the yard tug Hoga, in San Francisco under the care of the National Park Service. People keep working to try and return the Hoga to Pearl Harbor, and may yet succeed.

[Guz rating]

Great photos nevertheless Bill.

I know they were the enemy but what magnificent ships they were, Graf Spee, Bismarck, Scharnhorst etc. They should have run circles round us but our hundreds of years experience came through and their fate was inevitable under that madman Hitler and his Nazi regime.

Dave H

I agree with you Dave magnificent ships faster then anything we had, but an unbalanced fleet that is why the German battle plan was to concentrate on attacking the merchant fleet. And not engage the war ships if possible, as we out numbered them nearly three to one. Our fleet was older but very well balanced, Hitler knew very little about naval warfare and had been convinced be Hermann Goring that the German Air Force would win the war.

Regards

Alan

[ludsie]

The Phoenix was definitely became the belgrano and the Salem was decommissioned and became a museum ship