View Full Version : French Destroyers of 1900 or so....
Good Evening and....HELP!!!!!!
I'm planning the build of a Bombarde class destroyer of 1904 and trying to resolve a mystery.
All destroyers of the French Navy of the time had what appear to be very heavy bowsprits with, seemingly, boxing gloves at the end. None of the photos, drawings, plans etc. show any lines going to the point, no blocks, no fittings, no nothing so what were they for?
No other navy seems to have the equivalent.
Were they rams?
I'm a member of several other forums and no-one has come up with a logical answer.
Any advice would be much appreciated.
Regards
Tony
colombamike
08-01-2010, 20:09
bombarde = arquebuse Class ?......
some view (infortunatly in low resolution)
source: open view on the web...
Yup, thats the type.
I've got all the drawings, loads of photos of both the real things and the model in Paris Maritime Museum and there's no indication of why the 'sprit is how it is. All the various classes shown in Conway 1860-1905 show the same and many from Janes of the same periods. The original rigging plan shows that there are no fittings and there is no link, for example, with the anchor handling gear.
So, why is it so heavy and why does it have an end cap unless it was just, literally, a battering ram?
Tony
patroclus
08-01-2010, 23:53
The original rigging plan shows that there are no fittings and there is no link, for example, with the anchor handling gear.
Tony
A use in connection with anchor handling is the obvious answer, given the thin plating of these vessels. If a purchase was rigged on this sprit only when required, would this show on the rigging plan?
Agreed,
However....
There are, literally, hundreds of photos of destroyers of the period moored up, both in port and at buoys and there is no indication on any of either a line or a block, even a temporary one. The builders drawings include one of the anchor set-up on the f'castle but, again, there's nothing indicated.
I'm sure that the balance of probability is that it's as you suggest but it would be nice to have some evidence.
If you want to see the way the 'debate' has progressed, it's mainly on www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk under the thread 'Fat Pointy Thing!
Thanks
Tony
All destroyers of the French Navy of the time had what appear to be very heavy bowsprits with, seemingly, boxing gloves at the end. None of the photos, drawings, plans etc. show any lines going to the point, no blocks, no fittings, no nothing so what were they for?
Hi, Tony!
This bowsprit serves as a buffer.
No other navy seems to have the equivalent.
It's not so. Russian destroyers of the French-built FOREL class and the native built BUINY class had such constructions.
Hi Antoine,
Thanks for the 'buffer' answer but can you tell me what it was protecting against?
We believe that it was if or when the ship was being towed. Is this correct?
We only found out about the Russian designs a couple of days ago and also there are a few of the Normand designed boats for the Japanese that had the same.
Thanks again
Tony
patroclus
16-01-2010, 01:51
Well, I have some difficulties with the current explanation.
See:
http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5717
These ships would not easily be fended off!
Hello Patroclus,
That's exactly our problem!
We (on the Mayhem forum I noted) have been through as many options we could think of, especially one regarding anchor-handling, without a confirmed solution. There are about 180 replies to the query there for you to read if you wish!
The plans note that the end was ' un tampon ' - a pad and that is it. There are no other fittings at the end of the 'sprit.
It has become a bit of a mind bender!!!!!!!!!:confused:
Tony
patroclus
16-01-2010, 20:21
Helo Tony:
I am somewhat bemused by your reply as the photo in the link I sent in my last post clearly shows the sprit used as an aid to securing to a buoy. A block has been run out to the end of the sprit (this would not be a permanent feature of the sprit). There are some advantages in this system as it tends to minimize the rubbing of the mooring buoy against the ship's side.
John O'Callaghan
16-01-2010, 20:48
Hi All! Perhaps in the change over from sail to steam they put on a bowsprit because the always had. Navies being navies you know!
Cheers john O'C.
Hello again,
John, that was one of our original options BUT the thickness of the spar was too heavy to be just that, added to which, the pad on the end would be, well, just too untidy and certainly unusual!
Patroclus, while I agree that the usage with the anchor is an option, there is no evidence to confirm or deny it. Additionally, none of the original build drawings, including rigging drawings, show it as an option.
All photos we have seen of the ships being moored to buoys show the lines going through the normal channels. Perhaps we have been unlucky?
The only documentary evidence we have from contemporary sources show only 'le tampon' at the end of the spar and a towing eye approximately half way between the deck level and the sea level. That is why we still consider the 'bumper' to be a possibility.
I've attached a couple of drawings that may help.
Tony
Hello, Tony!
A couple of words about "mystery bowsprit". As I said earlier this construction served as a buffer. I read this on some drawings and have seen no words in several books about Russian destroyers. But let's think a little. To my opinion this sprit could serve a boat when mooring. Torpedo boats usually moored by a quay but not by a buoy (there are many photos illustrated this) and there were possibilities to "ram" the quay and "our" sprit could prevent collisions.
I tend to agree Antoine, but all the photos that I have seen show the ships moored with the stern towards the dock!
It is probable that the spars were used during mooring, especially since the rudders on these vessels were ahead of the screws so they would not be easy to manoeuvre.
Could they also be used as a buffer if the ship was being towed (through canals etc)?
Tony
Tony!
I suppose that the mentioned spars could play their buffer role when manoeuvring by the quay when moored.
As for towing I don't think so.
Antoine,
The reason I mentioned canals is that there are a number of photos in places such as Agde, Ouistreham or Tancarville which I believe are at the end of canals? Also, there seem to be a few torpedo boat builders actually on the canals? If they were towed on canals, they would need a short tow because they would be hard to steer and stop!
Possible also in Suez?
Tony
John O'Callaghan
17-01-2010, 21:56
Hi All! As a possible serious suggestion.During the late 1800s, and even earlier I suppose, the spar torpedo was in vogue as a weapon for smaller ships when attacking larger vessels.A boom or sprit with an explosive warhead was positioned ahead of the bow. This could be detonated on contact with the enemy vessel by ramming.Could it be that the French persisted with the tactic after eveyone else quit?The sprit on the destroyers would probably make a pivot point for such a device.
Cheers John O'C.
Tony!
As for using in channels I think that the construction would be temporary. And I also think French destroyers used Suez Channel not often (such as Russian ones).
John!
ALL navies of that time denied spar torpedoes. Some destroyers had bow torpedo tube but this idea was not good and also was denied.
patroclus
17-01-2010, 22:22
Hi All! As a possible serious suggestion.During the late 1800s, and even earlier I suppose, the spar torpedo was in vogue as a weapon for smaller ships when attacking larger vessels.A boom or sprit with an explosive warhead was positioned ahead of the bow. This could be detonated on contact with the enemy vessel by ramming.Could it be that the French persisted with the tactic after eveyone else quit?The sprit on the destroyers would probably make a pivot point for such a device.
Cheers John O'C.
I think this is doubtful. The spar torpedo had to be exploded below water and normally a frame was positioned on the foredeck on which the shaft of the torpedo was pivoted so that sufficient down angle could be obtained to get the explosive charge to an adequate depth. The shaft rested also on a roller at the stem. The heel of the shaft consequently was raised and it would be very difficult to handle this if the pivot was outboard at the end of the sprit, nor is there any sign of rollers in the sprit.
Spar torpedos still existed in the 1900 era but only as fittings for steam pinnaces (at least in the RN).
66552
John O'Callaghan
18-01-2010, 09:27
Hi All! I have looked again at post 12 by Tonyh. I'm afraid my French is not good. Could someone please interpret what any meanings of 'du tampon de choque' might be.The word tampon (or tampion) in English has a number of possible meanings.Those most relevant to this subject could include a cushioning device and a device for packing explosives prior to firing.
Cheers John O'C.
John, the translation we've been using on Modeboatmayhem is, roughly, shock (choque) absorbtion pad. I must admit that it looks like a rammer as would be used in muzzle loaders but that would also have the same basic meaning.
One of the reasons for the post is that I'm building a 1:36 model, so about 6ft long, so we can try the handling of the vessel at a reasonable size.
These destroyers had 2 other discrepancies from the normal.
1. The propellors overlapped each other when looked at from the front, because the ships were too narrow for the screws to sit side by side. This meant that the aft screw would always be cutting into 'dirty' water.
2. The rudder was forward of the props! This was to reduce the strain on the steering gear but it also meant that the handling was, to say the least, suspect.
You may find the US gunboat Alarm interesting in regard to spar torpedos. She had 3, two of which were hydraulically projected outwards when needed.
Tony
John O'Callaghan
19-01-2010, 04:45
Hi Tonih! It sounds like an interesting design.I was hoping your translation would confirm my suggested meanings and I guess it partially does. Words over time are changed across languages and even within a language. I suppose I've given it my guess and in spite of the answers to the contrary I suspect the sprit is connected to some form of spar torpedo mount . However it will probably be for the captains game fishing chair.
Cheers John O'C.
Hi, the original guess that this element (placed at the bow of various destroyers and other ship of the time) was a shock absorber is born out in the set of drawings originating from the offices of Augustin Normand, Le Havre. They are signed by the designer on the 29 November, 1909. The spar is referred to as a shock absorber. "...absorption de choc.." is the term used. I guess you can only imagine how the designer expected it to work in practice. It was mounted in a short sleeve so it seems that it might have moved rearward when it struck. Pretty well like any shock absorber. I suppose it was preferable to having the fragile bow buckled in everytime there was a small quayside incident.
Kevin
Hi Kevin,
Many thanks for the information and confirmation from Augustin Normand. The documentary evidence will make a number of people sleep easier tonight!
Is there any possibility that you have a copy of that section of the drawing that I could submit on the other forum?
Kind Regards
Tony
Dear All,
Many apologies for the delay.
Arquebuse was completed and sailed last year. She steered incredibly badly, even with independent control of the motors, mainly because original design called for the rudder to be placed ahead of the props. This lack of control would, I'm sure, have occurred with the real vessels and so the 'tampon' became a necessity. I followed the build plans from 'Service Historique' which appeared to use friction clamps and so there was an element of damping as well.
Thanks again for your input.
Tony
Yevgeniy
08-09-2012, 20:53
Great model - congratulations! May I ask what scale it is?
I presume your ship has only one rudder at stern - had seen those plans at French site but did not pay attention to that detail. Torpedo Boat Derzki having very similar shape but shorter built in France for Bulgarian Navy (according to French plans for 38m torpedo boat) had 1 prop and 2 rudders, one at stern behind the prop and one near the bow - I presume it was steered better...
Hi Yevgeniy, Thanks for your comment. She was at 1:35 scale so I could get the crew!
There was only one rudder, ahead of the screws, so she was fine steering astern but she had very poor steering ahead. Needed a large lake!
Tony
I am so sorry for the late participation here :o
Tony, congratulations for the nice modeling. It is giving me that strong filling what is making navy people "navy" :D
I hope some day you will be interested to make the other model which Yevgeniy already mention above - also french design and built - 38mtr torpileur "Druzky"! Furthermore, we have here in Varna, Bulgaria the only survived nowadays in the world, that class vessel in our Naval Museum.
Good Luck to you and stay in touch!
Best Regards
Rosen
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