Battle of Bellewaarde Ypres 16th June 1915

[martinclift]

Does anyone have any information about the above battle, either from the British or German side?

Martin

[martinclift]

Remembering all those who fell on the 16th June 1915 at Bellewaarde, Ypres.

We still honour their memory, even after 95 years, it shall never fade.

Please let me know if I have missed any names

Martin.

http://www.bellewaarde1915.co.uk/
(Please allow a short time to load)

[martinclift]

Hi

I am proud to say, I have posted my new website, Bellewaarde 1915, In my haste, however, to get it completed before Remembrance Sunday, I have created some bugs, which I am in the process of fixing. I hope it doesn't spoil your viewing?

Please view the site and if possible let me have you feedback, either via this forum or on my guestbook page.


www.bellewaarde1915.co.uk


I look forward to hearing from you.

Martin

[jainso31]

The Battle of Bellewaarde was fought 24/25 May 1915 by British Army GOC,
Gen,H Smith Dorrien,units invilved were the 1st&2nd cavalry Divs,4th,27th,
28th,&50th Inf Divs.
This particular battle was part of the 2nd Ypres Offensive and this effort saw the closure of the main offensive; which cost the British a total of 59,275 officers and men killed, wounded and missng of which 10,519 officers and men were killed.The German losses were about 30,000 all told.
What was gained-the Official History admits -very little.
What a B----- Waste!
PS.The above was classified as a "Battle" whereas the 16th June was classified as an "Attack".I'm sorry if I have goofed!


jainso31

[martinclift]

Hi jainso31
Many thanks for your reply to my post. This particular post is quite an old one, written at a time when I was researching 16th June 1915.

I am very pleased to be able to tell you that I have created a website dedicated to the men of this particular battle.

You can find the website at www.bellewaarde1915.co.uk

Once again, many thanks

Martin

[jainso31]

Martin -I think you have produced a hugely impressive piece of work- which
would be the envy of any worthwhile archivist. As you said, by using the mouse, you can uncover all the work you have done-a true Magnum Opus.


jainso31

[jainso31]

Hi Martinclift-I have made a fair perusal of your impreesive piece of work-there must have been many man hours in it's construction. This would delight any archivist of repute.
I did my search using the mouse as instructed and found most of what I wanted to find pretty easily.
Congratulations on your Magnum Opus.

jaonso31

[jainso31]

PS. What sources of information did you use to compile your Tribute-CWGC,
Battalion War Diaries? with the latter did you do your own research at the
National Archives?


jainso31

[martinclift]

Hi jaonso31
Many thanks for your words, it's very kind of you!

My research started 18 months ago, that was some time after I tinkered with the idea. It started as a research project for my family history and got a little out of hand. One other area that took time was that I decided to learn how to build websites, I decided not to use an on-line template, but build it from scratch. Very challenging!
The source material came from many places, individuals from other forum, books from the library, national archives on-line, all of which gave their permission, the only area of annoyance was that to reproduce maps, which are classified as images, the National Archives wish to charge a fee, even then the images should be made so that they can't be used on other websites, I'm still working on that one!

Again, many thanks

Martin

[martinclift]

Thanks again, jainso31

Martin

[jainso31]

Martin- you say you started 18mths ago and still adding -that is a truly great piece of work-but surely you could have used the CWGC for the names of the dead? I want to do something similar for the 66th DIvisions casualties during the March Retreat of1918-my GF lost his life on the 30th and has no known grave,
Anyway-more strength to your arm-I admire what you are doing.


jainso31

[martinclift]

Good morning

Sorry, I think I may have mislead you a little. The names of the dead on the 'Total Dead' list, did come from the CWGC. I emailed them and asked for a spreadsheet of all the deaths between two dates, filtered out what I didn't need and used the good information on the site. There were other lists, such as those in the NF and Liverpool Scottish etc.

I think the initial problem I had a total lack of understanding of Regiments and Battalions, where they were and when and of course with the diaries, trying to read the handwiting.

If you are embarking on this sort of thing, 'Good for you' and I'm sure the site will be worth waiting for!

Martin

[jainso31]

Thanks Martin-being more pongoe than matelot does have a certain disadvantage ie.not knowing ships! When it comes to army units ie.Divisions.Brigades and Battalions of Regiments;I like you;know the road.I
have a rather comprehensive library,mostly about the British Army and it's wars,campaigns. battles and actions.I use the CWGC in much the same way as you do-I Keep well in with them via their Customer Surveys.
My GF was only involved in the March Retreat for a few days and he lost his life taking and holding a village-but it is a long story.
PS. Have you looked at REGIMENTAL STATISTICS-AN opinion perhaps!?
Best Wishes
jim
jainso31

[nigelweysom]

Martin your site does look to be of interest , especially as my Grandfather was a Gordon Highlander , but personally i find your choice of background/font colour off putting
Nigel

[martinclift]

Hi Nigel

Many thanks for your post, I hope you find the information of interest.
The colours used were considered. I wanted to make the site look right for that period, yes I know I'm mixing the modern with the old, the background represents the colour of the British uniform, the brown the uniform leather and to be honest the colour of the font fitted quite well. I guess we can't please all of the people all of the time, but your point is valid and I guess I could in time allow for change of colours, I'll put it on the wish list.

Thanks again

Martin

[martinclift]

Hi Jim

You mention your Grandfather and the fact that his story is a long one. The little you have written about him sounds interesting, you should put pen to paper (finger to keyboard) and publish his story. One wonders if their sacrifice was worthwhile, but at least their memory can go on.

As for statistics, I guess I deal with them quite a lot without doing the maths. The simplist are the lists of the dead, I know the rough totals, but couldn't tell you the exact amount!

I have also thought about the total amount of shells, and which type, were fired by each side. If this were looked at and compared to deaths I'm sure it would give some interesting reading!

Martin

[qprdave]

Here are a couple of reports taken from The Times about the action in the Bellewaarde sector

Dates of publication in the file name

Dave

[martinclift]

Thanks for that, Dave.
It goes to show that the action at Bellewaarde was a minor attack when you look at the big picture.
Also a good insight as to what else was going on in the same sector.

With your permission, I would like to use these two clips?

Martin

[jainso31]

Martin
I see my GFs story could be of interest and I have done an extensive study
of the day (30/3/18 )he lost his life.He was an Act.Major 5/NF attd 5/Border (66th Div)
Undertook to clear a village on the R Luce-did so with a small coy of men 100+,left to hang on too long and was killed by shellfire; posted as Missing.cited for DSO downgraded to MC and declared dead in Dec 1918.
PS Thank you for your interest.
jainso31

[martinclift]

Ah, now! The next step is the tough one, what to do! Well, it will give you something to think about in a way of a little project.

Either way, good luck.

Martin

[jainso31]

Hi Martin
Compliments of the season
I have made a number of starts with my GFs story and they are all stored-the task in hand is to collate the episodes and
where possible verify the grey areas-which I am sure you will
have come across yourself.This I deem to be the hardest task.
Yours Aye
Jim
jainso31

[martinclift]

Jim, I hope you and yours enjoy the festive season.
I feel you have made a decision that may well be a gift for members of this forum and the wider world outside.

Many grey areas exist in the information at hand, but, you will find others who are ready to help fill in the gaps to make a near complete story as possible.

I found I was unable to put 'the story' together and rely heavily on the facts as written by others, being a scribe is a gift I do not possess

Martin

[martinclift]

Just to let you know!
Since the site was opened we have added many new pages of text, soldiers stories and images.

If you have viewed the site before, when you get to the first page, press the (F5) key at the top of your keyboard, this will refresh your computer's cashe memory. Also, to save browsing, click on the 'Site updates' link at the bottom right of the page.

Martin

[jainso31]

Martin
I am finding it hard going, like you, I am not a paticulrly good scribe.Most of my material is in the shape of letters to my GM, backed up by military diary entries and other written works covering unit histories.It is about coalescing all the data into coherent prose.I could do with a "ghost writer" I think. Can you say how you "put together" your evidence.?Any advice would be a bonus.

jainso31

[martinclift]

Hi again
This one isn't an easy answer, but I will try and explain how I got all the information together.

To start with all I had was a large amount of information, there was no order or structure at all and I was begining to think I was in over my head!
To make matters worse I needed to think about how to construct the website, I didn't even have a name for it.

So, I doodled and jotted on paper and came up with this:-

The battle from start to finish would run on buttons left to right. I should strip down the army structure - Division - Brigade and then Regiments.

The most important thing was the story from Division, Brigade and Regiment and this was diary and history lead. This gave me the battle from start to finish. I decided that the soldiers story was required to give a human element changing statistics into people. I then thought 'People also means the German side of the story' so that came next. Some soldier survived and some died, so the soldiers tab was the begining of the memorial and the, of course, the Roll of Honour.

The Art and Image tabs were added to show 'what had been' and 'what was now', in other words those images that in some cases were the last things seen by soldiers and those things they fought for, but would never see.

The colours of the site was also a consideration. Most sites that are created, even about WW1 are modern in design, bright coloures and well defined lines, I wanted this site to be Khaki from the British uniform, brown from the leather, even the text was chosen (Times New Roman) because it looked old, I am sorry to say the colour of the text used was because it was the only colour that fitted!

By working out the structure of the site helped me with the organisation of the mass of paperwork that I had created.

I then started on the long hours of transcribing diaries, copying from books, banging away on as many forum as possible for more information and images, getting in touch with people regarding copyright.

Bit by bit it started to come together, but I still wanted to test the water, so I created the memorial to all the dead and posted it just before 16th June (the day of the battle) and posted as many forum as I could so that I could gauge what people would think, I'm pleased to say that I got so many hits that it spured me on.

The guestbook on the site also helped me gague opinion, this was left:-

"Martin, I recall all of your effort to get this up and running and I am quite impressed with the site. Great work on looking at all aspects of the fighting, the men, the losses, accounts, etc. It brings them all to life once more and ensures that they will never be forgotten. Really superb job, you should be proud". Ralph

It showed that the job I had done gave a good overview and because people say it is easy to follow, then I can believe the structure is right.

I can't say it was easy, because it wasn't, 18 months of graft, but I am proud of my work.

This approach worked for me, I don't know if it will work for you, but there can be no harm in trying!

Kind regards

Martin

[jainso31]

Thank you Martin, for your valuable input.My problem, apart from being a poor scribe; is the missing gaps in what will be "The Life and Death of my Grandfather".He was killed whilst taking and holding a village in France and
his body was never found-there are no testimonies from survivors, other than HOW he died.So the Grande Finale is almost a complete mystery-just how much can I fudge; and if I fudge- I know it is fiction!??

jainso31

[martinclift]

Hi Jim

I know what you mean! My Great Uncle was with the Northumberland Fusiliers, when the whistle blew they were, according to one eye witness the first out of the trench. The Germans were recovering from the hours of shelling, however, according to another eye witness, as soon as they were up the German machine guns concentrated their fire in that direction, so, was this where he met his death, it was the most likely place. It could of course been when they reached the first or second trench, or when they were shelled by the Germans and by our own side in error, who knows?

He was recorded as at roll call as wounded, I guess he did not get killed outright. I can only assume that a pal saw what happened, but could not stop to help. Finally, it was not possible to bring him in from no man's land.

Like you, I know where and roughly when he died, but I must make assumptions about the 'How' based on what was going on around him and the most likely to have happened - 'wounded by machine gun bullets and died on the field of battle - with no proof, this is the best I can offer for my Great Uncle.

I would say that it did not matter how he died, the fact that he did was and is enough to make him a brave man in a situation that was very difficult, traumatic, and trying, he should be remembered for his deeds!

This is, of course, is how I feel about the situation of which you write, others will have their feelings, you can only allow them to decide.

Regards

Martin

[jainso31]

Thank you again ,my friend,for your ever so discerning overview of my dilemma.Like you I am fairly certain WHAT killed him.I have a letter to my GM from GF's erstwhile CO,also drawn into the desperate fighting of the German Spring Offensive, south of the Somme; on a 5th Army front. In the letter he tells her, that he was also wounded that day; and a badly wounded Sgt.told him that "he had been hit by the same shell which had killed Capt.Leask.5/NF"
I have been to the village many times and have taken many photographs and measurements; to build up a picture of how the village "could be taken"and have written a scenario around the theory- but is it good enough??


jainso31

[martinclift]

Hi Jim

"but is it good enough"

The answer to this question can only be given by those who read it, the problem is we all suffer from doubt, the work can be perfectly acceptable, but our thoughts are to allways do the best we can. It is a big leap of faith, but one we must make. The doubt makes success sweeter.

An exapmle of my point if I may? those who know us are less critical than those we meet on a forum and those on the forum may say "Great work", but do they really mean it, again self doubt creeps in.
I was searching the web for more snippets for the site when I came across an Australian forum and found to my amazement a thread about my site, if people who do not know you are more likely to write honestly about what they read. (I have signed up to the site, but I am still waiting confirmation)
Anyway, check it out and see the point I make?

http://desert-column.phpbb3now.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=567

Regards

Martin

[jainso31]

It is a big leap of faith,which if I don't take; I'll go to my grave not having done anything.I'm going to bite the bullet and get on with it; and as you say let others be the judges.Thank you for your kind patience and support.
I did take a look at website you left a link to-very impressive-all guys,like on this Forum, passionate about their interest-wanting to show what they've done,found.whatever.
I'll keep in touch ,if I may;and let you know how I'm getting along.
Kind Regards
jainso31

[martinclift]

Please do, Jim and you are very welcome

If you wish to pass something by me to see what I think, or just have a rant because things aren't going well, just P.M. or email me?

Kind regards

Martin

[jainso31]

I thought the background and font colouring absolutely spot on -very easy on the eye.
NB.The Northumberlands had quite a sizeable "Butchers Bill"!?

jainso31

[martinclift]

Thanks, Jim

Martin

[martinclift]

Just a quick note to let you know of further update to the Bellewaarde 1915 website!

www.bellewaarde1915.co.uk

Martin

[jainso31]

Cracking bit of extra detail Martin.

jainso31

[martinclift]

Thanks, Jim.

There is more to come in the following weeks, so keep your eyes open my friend!

Regards

Martin

[martinclift]

A few more updates available to view!

www.bellewaarde1915.co.uk

martin

[martinclift]

The Battle of Bellewaarde took place on 16th June 1915
In memory of the men, British and German, who fought and fell

You can now leave a message of remembrance at:

www.bellewaarde1915.co.uk

click on the link at the bottom right of the main page

[martinclift]

Just thought that you might like to know!

The Battle of Bellewaarde website has just been updated with new information:
1 x 23rd November and 12 items 23rd December

When you access the site please press the F5 key at the top of your keyboard to refresh the computers cache memory, then go to the ‘Updates’ link at the bottom of the page.

Also, please leave feedback either on the site at ‘Guestbook’ at bottom of page or on this site.

I hope you enjoy viewing

www.bellewaarde1915.co.uk


Martin

[jbryce1437]

Hello Martin and many thanks for your post and the link to the site. It would be nice to see the World Naval Ships Forum site listed with the Links.

Jim

[martinclift]

Say no more, Jim! I'll get it done on the next update.

Cheers!

[martinclift]

This forum is now recommended on the Bellewaarde website on the 'Links' page. To view this page a link can be found at the bottom of the main page.

Regards

Martin