Naval Disasters That have Touched you the Most [Archive]

ceylon220

24-10-2009, 15:29

[QUOTE=Dave Hutson;80332]To me every disaster is a tragedy but if I am to list the ones that touched me personally in some way they are:-

Barham A great chum of mine's father was one of the survivors and later became Lord Mayor of Plymouth twice [Bill Glanville]. To survive that explosion was surely a miracle.

Hood Ted Briggs one of the three survivors was my boss on two occasions.

Charybdis My wife's father went down with her off Geurnsey.

Hogue A good mate - Colin Mann died in that collision.

Japanese Troopship carrying POW's out Singapore 1945 - My father died when the USS Pampanito sank that one.

Hi Dave, You mention the HOGUE, I take it that we mean the destroyer which was in collision out in the China sea in1959 with the Indian cruiser MYSORE,
I was aboard the CEYLON and saw her returning to Trincomalee with her bows caved in and being told that there was a young seaman killed in this collision and whose body was trapped in the bow section, one or two were also injured, I had to take photos of the damage to the ship for reports,I had quite a few responses from shipmates who were aboard her plus also from others who were on that night exercise who said what had been the cause of the accident but were not proved at the inquest, if this young lad was your mate then you have my sympathy, I know what it was like to loose a mate in the navy, I lost 2 good friends due to accidents. R.I.P.

Regards.
Dave (ceylon220)

Dave Hutson

24-10-2009, 15:57

Yes Dave it was that collision and I was told the Mysore ploughed thru the snakepit mess [Comms Mess]. It was said Colin was the guy killed and as I never heard from or of him again that would be the connection. It would be ironic to discover that it was another guy that died and we had just lost touch. The coverage of disasters was not as media covered in 1959 as it is today so whilst events weren't covered up they weren't so widely explained or reported on.

Thanks mate.

Dave H

SCRG1970

24-10-2009, 15:58

Two sinkings that bring back personal memories whenever the ships are mentioned and especially on Rememberance Day are.....

The sweeper FITTLETON ,the crew of which I had worked with and the Coxon ,a personal friend who luckily survived.

The destroyer SHEFFIELD as the Deputy Weapons Electrical Officer was a particular oppo of mine as a young RMech. before he got his commission.

Needless to say "We WILL Remember Them."

Regards

Gerry

Gypsyvannergirl

24-10-2009, 16:52

Thank you all for your responses.

I was hoping this thread would give all of us a chance to never forget those who died.

Let me just add that the Cap Arcona was a disaster like the Wilhelm Gustloff, also the Thielbeck and Goya.

I remember reading about the HMS Thetis and I have to say that submarine disasters have to be in a category by themselves. No wonder they are considered "eternally on patrol". I cannot think of a worse way to die.

I guess that reminds me of the ships at Pearl Harbour, especially the USS Arizona and USS Oklahoma and others. I'm glad that these are considered War Graves and no one can desecrate them or treat them as tourist attractions.

Let me just add that I am so sorry to those of you who were touched so personally by these tragedies. You make me feel very humble, and grateful that because of you and your mates my family have rights and freedoms that we often take for granted.

May you all have peace, especially as Remembrance Day draws closer. May you especially have peace the other 364 days of the year when people tend to forget the sacrifices that were made for them.

I'm glad I found this forum. I feel like I've found a family

Dave Hutson

24-10-2009, 16:57

Thanks for your comments Gypsy.

By joining the forum you have found another family - the family of the sea where all are welcome.

I am sure we all share your sentiments at this time of the year and remember the sacrifices made by so many.

Dave H

harry.gibbon

24-10-2009, 17:03

I think that perhaps that which follows belongs here:-

The Navy Hymn

Eternal Father, strong to save
Whose arm hath bound the restless wave
Who bidd'st the mighty ocean deep
Its own appointed limits keep:
O hear us when we cry to thee
For those in peril on the sea.

O Christ, whose voice the waters heard,
And hushed their raging at thy word
Who walkedst on the foaming deep
And calm amid the storm didst sleep:
O hear us when we cry to thee
For those in peril on the sea.

O Holy Spirit, who didst brood
Upon the chaos dark and rude
And bid the angry tumult cease
And give for wild confusion peace:
O hear us when we cry to thee
For those in peril on the sea.

O trinity of love and power
Our brethren shield in danger's hour.
From rock and tempest, fire and foe
Protect them wheresoe'er they go:
O hear us when we cry to thee
For those in peril on the sea.

Scurs

24-10-2009, 17:06

Dave Hutson.............don't know if this is relevant, but I was always under the impression that the only person killed in the HOGUE-MYSORE collision was

R.O JOHN REVILL

Like Dave (220), I was on CEYLON at the time and remember the incident well.

Dave Hutson

24-10-2009, 17:11

Thanks Scurs, I get a spooky feeling that this one is going to produce a big surprise shortly - an possibly for me a pleasant one.

Dave H

Scurs

24-10-2009, 19:02

Dave....................in the nicest possible way, let's hope so, because I double checked (on Google) after I had posted my previous, and I was right in what I said.:)

ceylon220

24-10-2009, 21:38

You are correct Scurrs, his name is listed under Naval casualties, DaveH put a note in the Navy News and see if anything comes of it, don`t think the HOGUE has an association---surprising what comes up on this site.

Dave(ceylon220)

harry.gibbon

24-10-2009, 22:05

Yes I concur checked it also... I do hope Dave H will have a favourable outcome.

Little h

qprdave

24-10-2009, 23:00

Just to add my bit

This is from The Times Archive

It says that C. Mann was injured. Did he die later of his injuries?

harry.gibbon

24-10-2009, 23:19

22nd September 1914 Armoured Cruiser HMS HOGUE; both Colin Mann, Chief Engine Room Artificer and a William H Mann Sergeant RMLI were listed as losing their lives !!!

There-in may lie the confusion.

Little h

Don Boyer

25-10-2009, 06:52

Gypsyvannergirl mentioned Pearl Harbor and the ships that were destroyed there in her posts. (I know what a Gypsy is, and what a girl is, but what's a vanner?)

Having been around the Arizona Memorial since I was 13, which is before it was fully completed, I can tell you that it does bring close to home the cruelty of war and death aboard fighting ships. Having worked at the Memorial for a time and being a historian involved in many of the historical projects and memorials here, I can say that the Arizona Memorial is one of the most powerful and moving memorials anywhere. (The Arizona Memorial itself straddles the remains of the Arizona, and the rest is the shoreside facilities of museum and movie theater as well as several displays around the grounds. A new $35 + million facility is currently under construction.)

Of the ships involved on that fatal day, the Arizona, of course, tops the list. On that disastrous Sunday morning as battle stations sounded, many a hand was struggling to get dressed and on to their battle stations, probably wondering what was going on, hearing and feeling the terrible thudding sound of torpedo warheads exploding against the other ships in harbor and the bombs detonating close by in the water. And then they were just...gone. 1177 men, most vaporized in the massive explosion that ripped the 30,000 ton ship ship apart all the way back to the mess decks, causing the superstructure to collapse over the conning tower, breaking her keel and blowing the bottom out of the ship.

Oklahoma, torpedoed and capsized in minutes with some 422 dead, many drowned but most trapped in the capsized hull to slowly suffocate. A few lucky ones were freed when dockyard workers cut holes in the bottom of the ship. (There is now a memorial to the Oklahoma dead on Ford Island next to the Missouri memorial.)

West Virginia..although raised and repaired, some of her crew were trapped below decks and could be heard tapping on the hull for days. There was no way to get to them. When they were finally found, the calender on the bulkhead had been checked off to December 23rd.

Utah, torpedoed, capsized and some 57 men killed. Her hull also remains in Pearl Harbor on the side of Ford Island opposite the Arizona. With those men is a small urn containing the ashes of a baby girl who had died a few weeks before and whose father intended to bury her at sea. She is in good company.

And there were the casualties for the Pennsylvania, Tennessee, Maryland, Nevada (which valiantly tried to sortie, under attack, and eventually grounded herself) California, Honolulu, Raliegh, Cassin, Downes, Shaw, Vestal and the rest. Only the Arizona, Oklahoma and Utah never returned to service.

The tales of that day of course fill many a book. The sacrifices and the selfless help, the agony of long cruel suffering in dark cold flooded spaces until the end. The miracle of survival when so many of one's friends didn't make it, and the eternal question of "why me?"

One can imagine why the war between the United States and Japan became very personal very quickly as almost all of America thought of it as a sneak attack without warning, which is not what the Japanese had intended, not that it mattered in the end. The debt was paid in full.

Many are not aware of it, but the Arizona Memorial Museum has a "Remembrance Circle" on the lawn outside the museum, facing the Arizona Memorial across the harbor. On it are individual plaques listed all fatalities of that day by location, including all army and army air force casualties and 29 civilians, including a six-month old baby. There are about 1,226 names on that list. (A section of the museum wall shoreside lists the names of all Arizona survivors, including those who were not actually on board that day.) Thus all 2,403 casualties of Pearl Harbor are accounted for at the Memorial.

The Arizona Memorial itself contains the 1177 names of those killed aboard on December 7th. By navy regulation, any surviving Arizona crew member who was aboard the ship that day has the right to be buried aboard the Arizona with his shipmates. There are now 30 names on a special section of the Remembrance wall of those who have so chosen.

Those who so chose are accorded a full military ceremony on the Memorial itself with a military ceremony, the firing of the last salute and playing of taps. The deceased, in a stainless steel urn, is carried by scuba divers from the landing pier to the barbette of turret number 4 where, in a reverse "missing man" formation, the diver carrying the urn descends into the barbette as the other escorts pass by. The urn is placed behind the barbette's lower bulkhead and drops down into the ship where it can never be retrieved.

I have attended several of those ceremonies and never one more poignant than that for an Arizona gunner's mate whose duty station had been turret 4.

He was brought aboard with great and solemn dignity and grace by his young grand daughter, a girl around 10 or 12, carrying a velvet cushion with the silver urn. The urn received the full military salute as it was carried to the viewing stand for the ceremony, and later when she carried it down to the landing and carefully handed it to the divers.

Yet, through all of those things that Pearl Harbor brings to the fore, I can remember a clear Sunday morning boat ride in 2001 to the Memorial with Mr. Richard Fiske, former Marine bugler aboard the West Virginia and Zenji Abe, former bomber pilot from the Akagi. Zenji and Dick became friends when they met in Japan years before. Zenji probably saved Dick's life because for years Dick had been eaten alive by hatred and anger and frustration from his wartime experiences, not only at Pearl Harbor but at Iwo Jima as well. He met Zenji and later broke down. He finally let it all go and shook hands with the former hated enenmy, his stomach troubles and ulcers went away and he became a changed man like no other I've ever met. Zenji and Dick became the best of friends. And I am more than honored to have called both of them my friends.

Dick volunteered for many years at the Arizona Memorial, and Zenji would send him money from Japan every month to buy roses and take them to the Memorial. Dick would place the flowers at the front of the wall of remembrance and play taps. He could still wield a fierce horn even in his advanced years. He did that once a month for years.

I was never more privileged in my life to have been able to accompany these two men to the Memorial on that beautiful Sunday morning, where they placed flowers together and once again the sound of taps echoed through the Memorial. It was the last time I saw Abe-san. And Dick is gone now too, and I miss those two fine old warriors and think about them every time I am at the Arizona Memorial. God rest their souls and all those whose last resting place is Pearl Harbor.

And thanks, Harry, for the Navy Hymn.

Dave Hutson

25-10-2009, 10:16

Thanks guys one and all for your endeavours and inputs. It would be joy indeed to find after all these years that Colin made it. But once again it shows what a close knit clan the "brotherhood of the sea" is on this forum.

Dave H

Gypsyvannergirl

25-10-2009, 16:35

Wow! Thank you for your beautiful and eloquent post about Pearl Harbor. I have often wondered if bitter enemies - who were both doing what they were commanded to do, only on different sides of the battle line - could ever reach out to each other in peace once the hostilities were over.

Now I know that miracles can happen.

I never mean't to just single out the Arizona. I couldn't remember all of the names of the other ships at Pearl Harbor and the USS Arizona came to mind because just a few days before I had been reading about the fire on board the Morrow Castle and how the USS Arizona was one of the ships that came to the rescue.

The images of those ships burning at Pearl Harbor will never be forgotten nor will those who died their, even civilians.

Regarding my sign in name - Gypsyvanner or perhaps better known as the Irish Tinker Horse is a breed of horse that is light draft and is known for being used by gypsy's to pull their wagons. It is just becoming popular as a riding horse because it isn't very big (having been bred from the British Dales, and Fell ponies) but it is very muscular with long feathers down its legs. When it trots it looks like it is sailing on a cloud. They are usually black and white or brown and white and if I could have one wish in my life I would love to own one.

Peace to everyone especially at this time of year.

Don Boyer

25-10-2009, 21:04

Well, the Arizona is never really "singled out". Since the Memorial represents and honors ALL casualties of the attack it is normal to just refer to the Arizona.

During the preparations for the 60th anniversary memorial presentation, the Army and Air Force representatives were irritatingly insistent on wanting it known as "the attack on Oahu" not just Pearl Harbor, because Wheeler Field, Hickam Air Force Base and Kaneohe naval base and other smaller targets were also attacked and suffered casualties. A typically petty attitude, of course -- i.e., they resented the "navy only" implications, without understanding the full significance of how the navy and National Park Service operate the Arizona Memorial. The fact that, from the Japanese standpoint of designing the attack, Pearl Harbor was the primary target and all else was secondary (to ensure minimum interference with the main attack) didn't impress these gentlemen at all.

If I remember correctly, the term was used during that time, because it wasn't worth arguing about and it was essentially irrelevant anyway, as history will never note it as anything other than "Pearl Harbor."

There have been many occasions where veterans from both sides of the fight have met, but there are still many of the survivors who want nothing to do with the Japanese veterans, and they have a large voice in the various survivor's associations. There has yet to be a truly "joint" memorial observance at the Arizona Memorial, and I don't ever expect there will be. Some wounds are just too deep for some.

In closing, I should mention Mr. John Finn, Pearl Harbor survivor and former aviation ordnanceman who just celebrated his 100th birthday. He was presented with a flag by the United States Navy that had flown on every aircraft carrier on active duty in the Navy today. He is the last living Medal of Honor winner from the attack on Pearl Harbor.

The attached photo would not transfer last night, so I cropped it and loaded it today. It shows the "Remembrance Circle" on the museum grounds and you can see the Memorial itself and the USS Missouri in the right background.

The second photo is of the nuclear carrier USS Ronald Reagan entering Pearl Harbor and rendering honors to the USS Arizona, as all ships do that enter the harbor.

And thanks for the information on the horse. I would never have guessed that one, but I had heard of an Irish tinker horse...

Richtea

26-10-2009, 10:50

I have an uncle who was in the Fleet Air Arm on HMS Dasher when the aviation gas blew the ship up.
The only reason he survived is that he was skint.
Most of his mates were below decks getting ready for shore leave, my uncle was at the bow having a cigarette, his mates had asked him to go with them
but having no money he had refused.
So when Dasher blew up he was at the bow, not on his mess deck at the stern.He vividly recalls how the elevator was blown into the air with six crew on it.He was blown into the water and says that the crews of the two rescue boats were the bravest men he had ever met.
Going into the burning fuel to rescue the survivors.It is only in the last few years that he has told our family about this because all the survivors were sworn to secrecy by the navy.This was because one of his crew mates who died was used for the body made famous in the film The Man Who Never was.

Francis Stanley

26-10-2009, 13:35

Francis Stanley

26-10-2009, 14:01

Gypsyvannergirl

26-10-2009, 17:43

Yep. Ostriches are certainly big enough and ugly to boot. Should I tell you now that just outside Welland there is an ostrich farm that sells ostrich meat etc., but I don't think the feathers will do anything for me.

On a different note (meaning that it has nothing to do with big birds) I was thinking about the sinking of the Princess Sophia when she struck Vanderbilt reef in a blinding snow storm. The rescue vessels were there in record time but the weather was too bad to remove the passengers, so the Captain decided to wait for the weather to clear. Sometime during the night, she was dragged off the reef by the rising tide, did a complete 360 degree turn and split her hull, sinking so quickly no life boats were launched and most people died in their cabins. In the morning, rescuers were horrified to see only her mast sticking above the water. The only survivor was a dog.

I mention this one because she was carrying troops who were on their way to fight in World War 1. They never made it. And the truly ironic thing was that when they salvaged some of the bodies, they were brought ashore to the sounds of celebration because of Armistice Day and the ending of World War 1. So while one part of the city mourned, the other part celebrated and it was truly a "bizarre scene" as one witness described it.

Did you know that an Ostrich kick can break a bone or even kill you and man are they ever ugly birds. I think I'd rather have a ride on Big Bird from Sesame Street lol.:D

Dave Hutson

26-10-2009, 17:48

Hi Gypsy,

I read all your threads and I have come to the conclusion that you must have been a Mermaid in another life caring for souls of lost sailors.

Keep them coming - not only are they sad but also historical events we must never forget how and why the happened.

Dave H

Agree - Ostriches are ugly , but boy can they shift - got chased by one in Kenya when on Safari - and I was Driving - luckily no potholes

Gypsyvannergirl

26-10-2009, 21:46

Thank you

I can't think of a nicer comment that has ever been said to me. I just wish these naval disasters had never happened at all.

My love of ships and the sea started when I was young.

I was born in Ilfracombe, England and remember doing a school project on the restoration of the SS Great Britain, a ship that is very, very dear to my heart.

Here in Canada, I live not far from the Welland Canal, and love to go watch the salties and lakers go up and down the Canal. I even follow them on a website "boatnerd.com".

Obviously the sinking of the SS Edmund Fitzgerald had a staggering impact on a lot of people - we thought the lake freighters were unsinkable and we thought wrong. The Coast Guard tried to blame the crew for not fastening the hatch covers down properly but that is a load of bull. The Arthur M. Anderson and her Captain Bernie Cooper said the Big Fitz passed too close to six fathom shoal off the coast of Caribou Island and it was then the captain of the Fitz radioed Captain Cooper that they were taking on a list and the pumps were not making much of a difference. No sailor believes the hatch cover story because an experienced Captain and crew who had been warned there was extremely bad weather coming would not put out to sea with their hatch clamps half undone, ESPECIALLY IN THE MONTH OF NOVEMBER. It's like the MV Derbyshire - they always try to blame crew negligence.

There were other sinkings on the Great Lakes - including the great storm of 1913 where a number of ships went down. There were other sinkings that were not as famous because Gordon Lightfoot didn't write a song about them: "The Carl D. Bradley broke in half and sank with most of her crew - I believe two or three survived; the Daniel J. Morrell broke in half as well - the stern section pushing the bow section aside and continuing to steam up the lake. In that case life boats were launched and the crew managed to get into them but they all froze to death except for one man. Strangely enough, the two sections of the ship are several miles apart on the bottom of Lake Huron.

I absolutely hate roro ferries, because they are the most insane vessels ever built, and I like to look at submarines, but would never go on one being extremely claustrophobic.

That being said, I love tall ships, lakers, salties, battleships, battlecruisers, dreadnoughts, destroyers, frigates, aircraft carriers, the great steamships of the past (SS Great Britain, SS Great Western, and SS Great Eastern in particular), light and heavy cruisers, corvettes, and anything else that sails proudly on the sea.

And I love to research and remember and wish for peace to those who died on the oceans and lakes of the world and I wish for peace for their families.

ceylon220

26-10-2009, 23:40

harry.gibbon

27-10-2009, 00:03

The first page of google search is overflowing with accounts of this disaster and the secrecy surrounding it..... I shall resist posting the 11 links but assure you that these entries exist.

I didn't get to the second page but read some conflicting info, details of video rights, an eventual memorial service in 2004 and many other details.

Little h

astraltrader

27-10-2009, 00:22

Very useful Harry - but I think most members know how to use the search facility of Google.

qprdave

27-10-2009, 02:22

This is how The Times reported the loss of the Princess Sophia October 30, 1918

Richtea

27-10-2009, 10:34

Richtea, I read the book on the loss of the carrier DASHER and it was believed that an aircraft coming into land on the flight deck came in rather low and went into the deck opening below where aircraft and fuel were stored setting off a chain reaction,many lives were lost that day and it was a well kept secret for years, quite a few sailors from up here in Cumbria (then Cumberland) were lost.

The Dasher was stationary when the avgas blew up.
My uncle was in the fleet air arm on the ship,all his mates were below decks
getting ready for shore leave. There was no aircraft in the air, the ship was not moving.The crew were stood down, if there were planes in the air then the crew would be at flight stations, not getting ready for shore leave.I read the book myself and when I asked my uncle about this he said don't believe all what you read. No aircraft will take off or land on a stationary ship.From the day the ship was turned over to the Royal Navy you got the smell of aviation spirit all over below decks. That was why the only place smoking was allowed
was on the gun deck at the bows. This is where my uncle was when she exploded.He says the only reason he survived was because he was skint and didn't want to go ashore with his mates and have to rely on them for his drinks, even though they had tried to persuade him to go with them.
He says that the book is accurate and that the only error is the one about the plane flying into the ship.
Regards
Richtea

ceylon220

27-10-2009, 11:01

You had me worried there Richtea when you say no aircraft was involved, I certainly read that an aircraft was the cause of the explosion but I will take the word of your father, he is right you should`nt believe all you read.

Regards
Dave

ceylon220

27-10-2009, 13:55

If you go into google and go for HMS DASHER youwill find that there were quite a few explainations on why the explosion occurred:
1 An Aircraft hitting the deck below the flight decK
2 Fuel spillage below decks due to aircraft being refuelled.
3 Ship hitting a mine in the clyde.

To me it seems like the cause will never be found out and still remains a mystery like most mishaps that happened during the war,all I can say Richtea is that your uncle was a very lucky man to be alive many of the crew were not and are lying in graves in Scotland.

Richtea

27-10-2009, 13:56

The story of the aircraft crashing into the Dasher may have originated in the Admiralty, who knows, deception was all part of the war effort, like using one of the dead crew as a way of deceiving the enemy.
That certainly worked as they took the bait and the invasion of Sicily was virtually unopposed. How many lives this saved who knows ?.
Regards
Richtea

Don Boyer

27-10-2009, 16:52

If I remember correctly, Dasher was one of the mass-produced American escort carrier designs assigned to the RN during the war. I know I read somewhere that the Admiralty was not thrilled with some aspects of the ship's construction and that the avgas storage and distribution system was one of the main gripes along with non-existent magazine protection. Not sure where I read that...probably one of Friedman's design history books. It had been commented on before the Dasher disaster, and I seem to remember money was spent to prevent similar incidents on the other escort carriers. It wouldn't have taken an airplane accident to create the scenario on Dasher.

None of the American escort carriers of the same design had any problems of that nature as far as I've read, but as we all know, that could simply have been a matter of luck.

May her crew rest in peace.

Richtea

27-10-2009, 18:24

The Dasher was built as the Reo De Janerio freighter and then converted into an escort carrier. It was in this conversion that the avgas tanks were installed.The Dasher had other faults, during a storm off Iceland she
developed a spit in her side plates and had to return to port for repairs.
It was after these repairs when she had been returning from a training exersise when the explosion occured.
Regards
Richtea

Gypsyvannergirl

27-10-2009, 18:59

I had never heard of this ship before and so I googled it.

I'm sorry but I have tears in my eyes from reading about it. If men are so willing to fight for their country - they at least deserve a safe vessel to travel on. Is that number of casualties accurate? If so, that is just horrific.

Sorry to butt in to your private conversation, but everytime I learn something else about another ship I immediately research it.

My husband has done a lot of research, plus his brother is a Captain in the Canadian Army so all things to do with sea battles intrigues him. If I haven't heard of something, he usually has - when he comes back from work tonight I'm going to ask him if he has heard of the HMS Dasher. And I'm adding it to my research file right away.

Peace to you all especially as you remember those who gave up their lives so that we could have rights and freedoms that so many take for granted.

Richtea

27-10-2009, 20:32

Re Gypsyvannergirl,
I have always had an interest in naval history,kindled by a dear departed uncle who also served in the Royal Navy in WW2. He also served on flattops, but on the big ones like Ark Royal and Indefatigable.When the Ark was torpedoed he just walked off the flight deck onto one of the escorts,didn't even get his feet wet was one of his favourite quotes.He always said his worst fear was when an American plane had to make an emergency landing on his ship. The American planes had a metal propeller and the RN carriers had a wooden flight deck. The two did not mix well.My other uncle who is still with us only told me about the Dasher recently,so it was a shock to me.He recently went back to Ardrossan and when the locals found out he was a survivor they
wouldn't let him buy a drink for the duration of his stay.So turning down a drink saved his life, and he finally got his drink sixty years later.
Regards
Richtea

astraltrader

27-10-2009, 21:37

There are some pictures of HMS Dasher on this page of the RN Carriers thread if anybody is interested.

http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1864&highlight=DASHER&page=2

see post#47.

qprdave

27-10-2009, 21:40

Thanks for the pointer, Terry

TACKLINE

27-10-2009, 21:59

One of the big tragedies of WW2 was the sinking of HMS Caracoa,an anti-aircraft Cruiser,colliding with RMS Queen Mary,fully laden with American troops. They were carrying out a zig zag manouvre,which went wrong,and the Queen Mary cut through Curacoa amidships,cutting her in two. She sank immediately with a loss of 338 lives. Imagine being on the bridge or upper deck,and seeing this huge liner heading your way at 28 knots. Does'nt bear thinking of. A terrible tragedy.

davep

28-10-2009, 16:08

Tackline when on a recent visit to stornoway and wandering through the cemetery where some of the sailors drowned in the iolaire disaster, i came a cross a few worl war two graves one of which was from the curacoa.
i think there were a number of bodies washed up over the west coast of scotland as i have heard of some being recovered on both the mainland and on skye.

Gypsyvannergirl

28-10-2009, 17:02

Hi

Need a little help here.

I just finished the research into the HMS Dublin a light cruiser which was torpedoed and damaged on June 9, 1915.

No problem there. However, on June 10, 1915, two torpedo boats, TB10, and TB 12 are mentioned as having casualties.

First of all, despite frantic googling I still don't know what a torpedo boat is and did these two torpedo boats sink and if so does anyone know what happened to them. I will continue to research but if anyone has any information I will be very grateful.

Peace to everyone

TACKLINE

28-10-2009, 21:28

of Tackline when on a recent visit to stornoway and wandering through the cemetery where some of the sailors drowned in the iolaire disaster, i came a cross a few worl war two graves one of which was from the curacoa.
i think there were a number ,of bodies washed up over the west coast of scotland as i have heard of some being recovered on both the mainland and on skye.
Davep
Yes,there are 16 graves of Curacoa ship's Co on Skye. They are buried in Ashaig cemetery,Breakish Nr Broadford.. I will make an effort to visit next time I am up there.

Guz rating

28-10-2009, 23:53

This is a tragic poster I fround on the web yesterday,concerning the collision beween HMS Berwick and HMS Tiger.

Alan
http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=60264&stc=1&d=1256773973

qprdave

29-10-2009, 00:07

I found this in The Times Archive

It's the casualty list concerning Torpedo Boat Destroyers 10 & 12

Not very easy to read though

astraltrader

29-10-2009, 02:11

Gypsyvannergirl

29-10-2009, 02:24

Thank you for your response.

Naval-History.net has a list of casualties for both Torpedo Boats and my husband helped me find pictures of what torpedo boats looked like so that I have some idea of what they are.

Thanks again.

tonclass

29-10-2009, 08:08

This is the only naval disaster that I've had first-hand experience of, and it didn't half shake me & the rest of the crew up at the time, but as a youngster (I was only 20) you quickly shake it off and get on with things.

Looking back, things could have been so much worse.......

http://www.tca2000.co.uk/story1.htm

ceylon220

29-10-2009, 10:59

Remember the date 28th April 1944 when a fleet of LSTs set off for an exercise to Slapton Sands loaded up with US Army troops and members of the US Navy and escorted by 2 war ships which one had to return to Devonport with suspected engine trouble.
A group of German E-Boats found and attacked the LSTs and the result was that 946 US soldiers lost their lives, a Sherman tank is at Slapton Sands as a memorial to the lives lost on that fateful day.

qprdave

29-10-2009, 12:38

Rik
Here's how The Times reported the Nurton Collision

tonclass

29-10-2009, 15:50

Cheers Dave. Not seen the Times reports before.

Andy3E

29-10-2009, 21:11

Well there are lots which have stuck with me and fascinated me, but the ones i guess which are most pertinent both involve my Favourite ship, HMS Hood

the First is Mers el Kebir, it has all the components of a greek tragedy, you have brothers cast against each other, political intrigue, suspense, drama, action and a terrible sense of inevitability as the clock counted down and the deadlines passed and still no compromise was reached. I really don't think either side seriously believed that the British ships would open fire but each duly marched towards their fate.

the Second is the Sinking of HMS Hood herself, which i guess could be looked as symbolic for the "death" of the supremacy of the RN, throughout her life Hood had been the RN's 'Frightener' and a showboat, she embodied everything about the might of the RN and the empire, unfortunately that Supremacy was pretty much eroded in the interwar period and finally destroyed with the Death of the Hood and her company.
The tragedy again is it was entiraly avoidable and just a tragic result of circumstances, the Admiralty Knew Hood was flawed and knew she was old and tired, She was scheduled to go in for her major overhaul like Renown had received but given her status she was always needed to show the flag and keep the peace.
IT was entirely possible the Golden Shell which ended her could have missed, or Admiral Holland could have signalled his turn a fraction of a second earlier or later and she would have survived.

I also am taken by the reports that as her Fwd section slipped below the waves "Her Fwd Turret fired one last defiant salvo and she vanished beneath the waves" i know that if that did infact happen it was likely a short circuit or something but its kinda poignant.

Don Boyer

30-10-2009, 01:01

Andy 3E, a poignant post, and all to true. Well done!

"...the Second is the Sinking of HMS Hood herself, which i guess could be looked as symbolic for the "death" of the supremacy of the RN, throughout her life Hood had been the RN's 'Frightener' and a showboat, she embodied everything about the might of the RN and the empire, unfortunately that Supremacy was pretty much eroded in the interwar period and finally destroyed with the Death of the Hood and her company."

The Hood's destruction could be seen quite as you say. However, stepping back a bit, one must recognize that the Hood symbolized far more that the might of empire.

Not once, but twice, Britain, or more relevantly, the United Kingdom, chose to oppose tyranny and the rule of Satan, alone if necessary, even at the cost of Empire, much as poor long-suffering Winston wanted otherwise. No nation on Earth deserves more credit than Britain for having taken that stand and bringing the nations of democracy and peace under that umbrella of righteousness. And it did cost an empire, although it created a United Nations, for better or worse. Even your friends such as my country sometimes overlook these facts for political convenience.

Hood, though gone these many years, symbolizes the triumph of humanity against the forces of evil in all its forms. She, and Britain, will never be forgotten.

doug.birch

29-11-2009, 12:53

Hi gypsy, the naval disaster that touched me the most, was the sinking of hms curacao by the queen mary for I lost a pal Nobby Grant. we worked together at Siemens, we joined up together, did our training together and spent our demarkation leave together before joining our ships. A great bloke and I will never forget him RIP. Doug.Birch.

John Odom

29-11-2009, 13:53

Well said, Don Boyer!

astraltrader

29-11-2009, 14:06

I too feel moved to echo the same sentiments John.

Well said Don Boyer.

MMM

01-12-2009, 15:23

There were many disasters with more victims like Cap Arcona, Wilhelm Gustloff or Steuben.
But for me, when trying to get into 1916 British boots, how disastrous, for acompanying ships' crews first and for British society aftermath, had to be fate of three RN Battlecruisers during Skagerrak Battle.
Roughly 3000 men perished, 3 ships disappeared in just 3 hours or so, when only man in water should be Jerry.

And second one during Tsushima Battle when of four Borodino Class Batleships
three (Borodino herself, Knyaz Suvorov, Imperator Alexandr III) were send to bottom with ALL CREWS. From three crews numbering about 870 men each there was ONE single man surviving from Knyaz Suvorov:eek:

John Brown

02-12-2009, 14:14

I always find it exceptionally sad when I read of men and women having been killed so close to the end of a conflict. An example is the sinking of the Battleship HMS Britannia on the 9th November 1918 just two days before the WWI Armistice. Although the loss of life was not on the same scale as in Hood or Barham, the timing of her sinking by UB-50 near Cape Trafalgar just seems particularly cruel. They might not have known for certain that the Armistice was to be signed on the 11th Nov but the men on the ship had probably heard rumours that the war would not last much longer. Many were probably elated with the thought that they 'had made it' or 'had seen it through' only to be killed on the home stretch. One can only imagine how their relatives took the news!

Regards...John

Scurs

05-12-2009, 12:57

Agreed John................in my family, my mother's eldest brother was killed on Western front - just 3 days before the end of the war - he had joined Suffolk regiment in 1915 and was a dispatch rider.

astraltrader

05-12-2009, 20:14

My wifes great grandfathers brother called Owen Henry Blower was sadly killed at Monchaux on the 24th October 1918, just over a fortnight before the cessation of hostilities.

Guz rating

05-12-2009, 23:54

I was reading today an account of the sinking of the Scharnhorest, the crew of which numbered nearly seventeen hundred sailors. Thirty six survivors were taken out of the Arctic Ocean. Thirty by HMS Scorpion six maybe by HMS Belfast. The Norwegian ship HMS Stord's crew beat up survivors as they came over the side, and threw the over the other side. This was an account by an eyewitness onboard HMS Duke of York. For anyone who goes to sea there is a kinship, and a thought there but for the grace god goes me. The crew of the Scorpion treated the German survivors with great care, and some of them became life long friends. I have no words to describe my contempt for the Stord.

Alan

John Brown

06-12-2009, 11:23

Scurs and Terry

A very sad part of your family histories.

I would imagine your relatives were not informed of the mens deaths until after the armistice which would have made the news even more distressing.

Probably often impossible to ascertain who he/she was but imagine being (not including those who died later of their wounds) the last person killed in any conflict.

Regards...John

Scurs

06-12-2009, 21:04

John..........whilst from a family of 12 children, my mother only had 3 brothers, her eldest being the only one involved in WW1.

My father and his 4 brothers, were all involved in WW2 (1 navy, 1 army, 3 RAF), all 5 survived unharmed, so I guess it is when Lady Luck smiles?

AngusOg

07-12-2009, 01:39

HMS Sheffield; This may not be the greatest of naval disasters to befall the Royal Navy, but for one vetern it was.

My father lived in the Veterns K wing in Sunnybrook hospital here in Toronto for the last 10 years of his life. I had him at my home and got him a video about the Falklands. He was so intense watching this video I started watching him and his reactions. When it showed an arial shot of Sheffield cutting thru a deep swell in the South Atlantic he started to choke up and was all teary eyed. I think.. I know it took him back to his own time in the RN, he served from August 1939 to Sept 1940 HMS Weston and transferred to HMS Southdown until his medical discharge Nov 1943. When I took him back to K wing he was ramrod straight in his wheel chair, a very proud Ex RN (RNR) individual.

astraltrader

07-12-2009, 13:28

AVV

09-12-2009, 16:05

And second one during Tsushima Battle when of four Borodino Class Batleships
three (Borodino herself, Knyaz Suvorov, Imperator Alexandr III) were send to bottom with ALL CREWS. From three crews numbering about 870 men each there was ONE single man surviving from Knyaz Suvorov:eek:
Good evening, MMM!

I would like to make small clarification as to the fate of these ships' crews.
Aleksandr III really was sank with all hands (867 men, according to Russian sources)
Borodino was sank with all crew, except for one man - Semen Yushchin (BTW, he suffered such a great shock when he knew that was the only survivor of all his ship's crew that died soon afterwards) - 865 KIAs in total.
During the battle destroyer Buinyi managed to come to severely damaged Suvorov and take off her board Admiral Rozhestvenskiy, some officers of his staff and several sailors from the battleship's crew (23 men in total). Suvorov was lost with 925 KIAs.

Best regards, Aleks

steve roberts

10-12-2009, 14:33

Hi Gypsy. As an ex submariner 1969-1977 it is obviously sub sinkings that affect me most. USS Thresher, USS scorpion, INS Dakar (ex HMS Totem) and last but not leas the russian sub KURSK. all aboard had fearful deaths and I often think of them in my prayers. Regards Steve Roberts. PS any one can mail me at steveroberts20@google mail.com:

Gypsyvannergirl

11-12-2009, 06:01

I completely agree with you. They just showed Deep Wreck Mysteries, about the mystery behind the sinking of the USS Scorpion and it broke my heart to learn that the men on board had about three minutes of complete terror when they knew they were going to die and they were so young. I know they took the Totem off the Dakar but only superstitious idiots would blame that for the sinking. Aboriginal people have their own struggles and sinking a sub is not one of them.

I doubt that we'll ever truly know the truth about these disasters. The latest I heard was that the Kursk was sunk after colliding with a US sub. But does it really matter. The Brave Men of the Kursk, Dakar, Thresher, Scorpion, Thetis and many from the Squalus are gone and no amount of conspiracy theories are going to ever bring them back.

Think of them and the families they left behind, especially at this time of year and hope that technology will one day get us to the point where no other submariners are 'ETERNALLY ON PATROL"

Peace

steve roberts

11-12-2009, 14:43

Hi Gypsy, re my quote on submarine disasters. How terribly remiss of me to not also remember Thetis, HMS Affray and HMS TRUCULENT.Rest in peace guys, you are always on my mind,to miss-quote a great Willy Nelson song title. As the great men say, "STILL ON PATROL" best regards Steve

steve roberts

11-12-2009, 19:07

Hi Gypsy,I read recently that the wreck of INS Dakar was found noth east of cyprus in deep water with little sign of damage except bottom collion.?internal crew mistake,who will ever know as she has been declared a Protected Site,which is as it should be.As a ps the original totem pole of HMS Totem can be seen in the Submarine Museum here in gosport. Regards Steve.

steve roberts

12-12-2009, 12:50

Hi again gypsy, to get away from submarines. I had the honour to be serving at the RN Hospital Stonehouse Plymouth, and i believe it was 1970 when HMCS KOOTENAY (hope i have spelt it right) after a visit to Plymouth, suffered a disaterous fire in which i think 7 members of the crew were killed. She limped back into Plymouth and her injured were landed.We opened up a closed ward and recieved up to 30 casualties.I had just finished nights and was due to go on leave but I stayed to help staff this ward. The most moving moment of that period was when Kootenay sailed out of Plymouth to bury her dead at sea.We all stood by our patients beds and supported those who could stand to hold a minutes silence at the exact time of the funeral.A moving experience that will stay in my mind forever.Regards Steve.

Gypsyvannergirl

12-12-2009, 14:21

I'm going to research every submarine that you have mentioned because I've never heard of them before and that intrigues me.

I still wish there was a fail-safe way to stop submarines from sinking. It just seems like a truly terrible way to die.

Re: Dakar I believe part of her conning tower is on display also. At least I believe that was the picture I saw. I want to start printing off pictures of all of the ships/subs etc., that found infamy in the two World Wars and even after that.

I never want to forget anyone who was killed because they were doing their job. It's a long term project - I'm halfway through 1914 - I just finished the Battle of Coronel and I have 150 pages of casualties names.

Thanks for your information.

Corinne

Gypsyvannergirl

13-12-2009, 02:21

Found another submarine I had never heard of before. HMS Sidon who sank after experiencing torpedo troubles with a loss of 13 men.

Can anyone out there help make sense out of all of the theories surrounding the USS Scorpion? I am so confused by everything that I am reading.

steve roberts

13-12-2009, 12:03

Hi gypsygirl,the Sidon sank along side the depot ship Maidstone in portland harbour after a torpedo fuel explosion(we were tinkering with High Test Peroxide fuel at that time.Dropped very suddenly after this event) The saddest loss of life was a RNVR Medical Officer who actually went down the sub to aid injured and went down with it. Re USS Scorpion.No one will ever really know what happened but rumours abound. 1 The Soviets sank her because she had been on a spying mission in the Med. Bunkum in my mind because her last port of call had been Naples in italy and any sensitive spying materials would have been landed there. 2 In my estimation a HOT Torpedo run. Basically an accident,she was found heading East on the seabed not West as she should have been.The proceedure then was to do a 180 degree turn to stop the torpedo arming itself,ther was more than likly an minor explosion in the torpedo motor which started a chain reaction in the warhead of that torpedo thus sinking the boat.I agree with your comments about the guys on board dying in terror because the usual proceedure in a "hot run" is to shut all watertight doors.Thus althought the main two copartments of the boat may well have been copremised by the explosion,but those back in engineering spaces would have rode the boat down to crush depyh before they died.It just does not bear thinking about,what a horrible way to go being unable to do any thing about it. RIP Boys. there is picture of Scorpoin arriving in Naples,the last ever taken of her on the Subs web site.Regards. Steve.

steve roberts

13-12-2009, 12:47

Hi again Gypsy. Re your post re the Kursk sinking,collision is not that improbable as a photo of a Us LOS ANEGELS class boat showing collision damage in a Norwiegn port shortly after the event exists.How ever even if this boat did collide with Kursk I doubt that would have sunk her.A loud explosion in the area was detected by several countries at the time of the sinking and surely this would have sunk or diabaled the colliding sub.The exercise that Kursk was on was a live firing one and Kursk was due to carryout a torpedo and/or missile firing at the time. So there are two possible theories.1 the fleet flagship "Peter the Great" had moments befoe fired live anti submarine missiles and one of these is known to have run wild. It is possible that this missile sunk the Kusk,thereis some where a report of an interview with the Rissian Admiral on the ship which he is reputedly to have said"Oh my god what have we done" 2 There was a collision which started the chain of events simmilar to the Sidon accident.This could be borne out by the notr found on the body of one of the subs officers after the salvage.I believe up to 23 men survived the explosion,but due to "Higher AUTHORITY" No one was allowed to ssist the rescue attempt and the Russians botched it! There but for the grace of god go all men who go down to the sea in ships.Re my post on Kootenay,i know ship did not sink but as a Canuk I thought you might like to read what we did for your country men.Regards Steve.

Gypsyvannergirl

14-12-2009, 11:44

Thanks Steve

Yes, I love hearing about anything naval and I do research everything I can. Every few days I put another special war ship on my computer as a remembrance. I just finished with the USS Arizona and now for some unexplained reason I had to put the HMS Aboukir on and I have to tell you even as aged as she was, she was a beautiful ship.

I had the USS Thresher on a few days ago - but it wasn't a real photo it was a painting, but it was really gorgeous and a fine tribute to her brave crew.

I'm going to the library later to find a book on the fate of the HMCS Athabaskan - the ship that helped rescue her survivors the HMCS Haida is on display not far from here and I want to go and see her.

Right now, I'm trying to research the USS Nashville which lost 138 men in a japanese Kamakaze attack - but there doesn't seem to be much info on her and for sure I have been unable to locate a casualty list for my book of Remembrance.

I tell you it's a neverending project - but the satisfaction I get is knowing that the men aboard these vessels will NEVER be forgotten because of Naval Forums like this one.

Rest In Peace And Know You Are Forever In Our Hearts

Corinne

steve roberts

14-12-2009, 12:36

Hi again gypsy, thanks for your posts,re kamakazi attacks try the ships name on the web if you have the rough date of the attack there must be naval records some where,its just finding the right sight. Re INS dakar, you may well os seen a pictue of her fin,its at the Naval Museum Haifa Irael. Its her fin and part of the casing wich for some strange reason is describe on her finding web as a "Draw bridge" I have heard of the on castles but never on a sub!I find the Wikipedia page on the web a good sourch of naval info.ou say you are just completing studies of the Battle of Coronel, wait until you try to make sense of the Battles of Dogger Bank and Jutland. They are a students nightmare,because there are so hard to get to the bottom of who did what to who,and why so many mistakes were made. Regards Steve.

Gypsyvannergirl

14-12-2009, 14:05

I agree with you completely. I am in December 1914 using naval-history.net and other websites for information regarding the ship/sub etc that I am researching and at this point in my research I have 157 pages of ships/subs and their crew members that died.

I haven't reached the Battle of Jutland yet where I believe 6,000 allied sailors died.

Researching American casualties for that time period is going to be a little bit more difficult, because I haven't found a list like they have on naval-history.net for World War 2 American casualties and we know a million battles happened to them - Pearl Harbor, Guadalcanal, Leyte and perhaps most important the Belgian troopship the Leopoldville that was torpedoed and covered up by the wonderful British and American governments so that it took 50 years before the families found out what really happened to their loved ones.

I'm still trying to decide if the USS Cyclops belongs on that list or even her sister ships Proteus and Nereus - still more investigating needs to be done. I am definitely going to make up a special page for the refugee ships that were sunk with tremendous loss of life; Cap Arcona; General Steuben; Thielbeck; Goya; and Wilhelm Gustloff. There was another one too that was refused landing permission by a number of countries - it was full of Jewish refugees and ended up being torpedoed with only one survivor out of thousands. I can't remember the name off hand but it was something like Struma or something close to that.

Truth wins out in the end. Those who have the means to help but turn away show how truly cowardly they are.

Peace

steve roberts

14-12-2009, 15:10

Hi gypsy. Told you Naval history was a spiders web or maze. Getting to the bottom of some facts can hard as every one seemed to be covering their own backs.Keep digging though its worth it. Re my last PM the book is called "BLIND MANS BLUFF" by sherry sontag and chrisopher drew.Should be able to get a copy from your Libary.Regards Steve.

Marek T

14-12-2009, 15:22

... one too that was refused landing permission by a number of countries - it was full of Jewish refugees and ended up being torpedoed with only one survivor out of thousands. I can't remember the name off hand but it was something like Struma or something close to that ...
Yes, she was the STRUMA - see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Struma_(ship)

Gypsyvannergirl

14-12-2009, 16:00

Thank you

Not one of the most glorious moments of the war and certainly does not deserve to be forgotten. I will definitely add her to my list.

Peace to you and much thanks

Corinne

steve roberts

14-12-2009, 17:12

Hi Gypsy. re your post on uss war casualties. Two sites if you have not tried them are http://www.google.co and http://www.ask.com. Also try looking for web sites about well known Admirals such as Halsey and Nimitz.An other good book to try and get hold of is "Submarine"by Capt Edward Beach USN RTD.Only short stories but might open up some ideas for you. Bet you never knew this subject was such a "Can of Worms"Best regards Steve Roberts.

qprdave

15-12-2009, 01:53

Here are three clippings taken from The Times Archive Re. the Struma

Gypsyvannergirl

15-12-2009, 10:02

Thanks for the info. I had no idea that the Romanian government was involved although I did know Turkey was partially to blame.

The only survivor I've heard of was a child and now lives somewhere in the US.

An incident like this one should make the whole world ashamed - no one stepped up to the plate so to speak and offered a helping hand until it was too late.

Nothing changes does it. How many times will we hear the words "It's not our problem?" while innocent people die for nothing.

Thanks guys - Corinne

steve roberts

15-12-2009, 12:26

Hi corrine. Some more submarines to add to your search portfolio! Between the wars Look up the K boats British Steam Driven subs with a very unfortuate record. You will find out more about them when you research WW1 So called "battle of May Island". Also Brithish subs M1 and M2.Now some american boats WW2.USS TANG USS TRIGGER< USS HARDER< USSWAHOO< and they are only some of the well known boats Tangs end being particularly unfortunate as she sank herself! American and British records are more intct than German and Japanese.One strange fact for you,until resently the loss Of HMS SWORDFISH was recorded in they Bay of Biscay. Some years ago her wreck was found of the Isle of Wight, and records had to be ammended. Regards Steve.

ceylon220

17-12-2009, 09:39

Steve, was there any reports on how SWORDFISH met her end off the Isle of Wight especially when it was thought she was lost in the Bay of Biscay?

Dave.

ceylon220

17-12-2009, 09:52

It`s OK I`ve found what her fate was Steve, found off the Isle of Wight split in two and believed to have struck a mine on submerging on her first day out from Portsmouth,she was on her way to her patrol area off Brest in1940.
I wonder how many more of our subs were lost in this way and are still unaccounted for today.

Marek T

17-12-2009, 10:46

There were two submarines lost in North Sea in 1940 - the Dutch O-13 and Polish ORZEL. According to the Admiralty statements both were lost on a minefield while proceeding to patrol area.
But recently the area was surveyed and no wrecks were found.

Gypsyvannergirl

17-12-2009, 11:23

Thanks for the info.

Gosh the mystery deepens with every post. I started this project simply to learn something new about a subject I had some interest in because of seeing the SS Great Britain when I was a child living in England. I did a project on her for school and found out about her sister ships the Great Eastern and the Great Western and my interest just grew from there.

I never really thought about naval losses in battles until I started watching programs like Deep Wreck Mysteries and The Sea Hunters. The casualty losses from these disasters was truly staggering.

On the Great Lakes - there are many, many wrecks - in the past 40 years, three bulk freighters have split in half and sank with almost total loss of Captain and Crew - the Carl D Bradley had one survivor I believe, the Daniel J. Morrell had one survivor and the SS Edmund Fitzgerald lost everyone.

Thank goodness for the Internet and thank goodness for the wonderful people on this forum who keep giving me more and more information to research.

Thanks and peace for the holiday season

steve roberts

17-12-2009, 13:41

Hi dave,Swordfish was reported sunk by German Destroyers off Brest.Her wreck was discovered and Identified south of the Isle of Wight some years ago.It is now assumed she struck a mine soon after leaving Portsmouth.One note of inerts in this case is that both conning tower and after ecape hatches were open. ?an escape attempt made, but survivors swept out to sea as in Truculents case. I always assumed the s sub would have a surface escort until she dived????? Regards Steve Roberts

dennis a feary

23-12-2009, 15:17

VanGirl - for me as a personel loss is that of HMS/m H49, depth charged and sunk of Dutch coast October 1940 - father is `Still on Patrol' - RESURGAM !!

Just an `observation' you understand, do not wish to be too pedantic, but NOT `the HMS ???? but `just' HMS - no sense in saying `The Her Majesty Ship ????' - no critism intended.

EDNAMAY - Typy no doubt, but THETIS was renamed THUNDERBOLT, and sadly she took her crew with her when lost in the Med. RESURGAM.

Sadsac

steve roberts

23-12-2009, 15:37

Here is another strange event.It regards the sinking of the FFS SURCOUF.She was a hybrid submarine,described by the French as a "Corsair".A strange boat by any decription. For some reason(Not disclosed) she was on her way to Tahiti via the Panama Canal,but was struck by the US freighter SS THOMPSON LYKES sailing from Guatanamo Bay Cuba.The lookouts on the freighter hears men in the water after the collision,but the ship sailed on thinking they had struck a U-Boat.A signal about the incident was sent to Panama,but no action was taken to search for or rescue survivors.The submarine was listed as sunk with all hands.There were several rumours abounding after the sinking,but are too many and to long to list here.A memorial to the submarine and her crew can be seen in the French port of Cherbourg.Full details of this strange boat and her history may be found on wikipedia under French Submarine Surcouf.Happyhunting! Steve.

Gypsyvannergirl

23-12-2009, 18:32

Thank you for pointing that out - from now on I'll refer to vessels simply as HMS - it's going to be somewhat strange you know how old habits die hard.

But its like the lakers and salties that go through the Welland Canal - everyone knows they are Steam Ships so their is no reason to type in SS Edmund Fitzgerald or whatever.

Thanks.

To my friend Steve Roberts, so far I have researched over 100 allied ships mostly in World War 1 but a few in World War 2 and it's been such a humbling experience for these crews that are 'STILL ON PATROL." So far I have looked into HMS Oxley (apparently sunk by mistake by her patrol mate HMS Triton; HMS Seahorse; HMS Tarpon; HMS Thistle; and HMS Stertlet.

Getting away from subs, I have to say the story of HMS Glowworm and her uneven battle with the Admiral Hipper filled me with awe (and tears) especially when her last valiant effort was to ram the Admiral Hipper and try to do some damage. What a brave crew.

John Odom

23-12-2009, 18:59

guess the Glowworm-Hipper fight is the classic story of a mismatched fight with uncommon valor shown by the looser.

Brave men indeed.

Vegaskip

23-12-2009, 19:12

Hi Gypsyvangirl, you may be interested in the story of H.M.S. JUNIPER.(briefly quoted below) I joined the forum to see if I could get a photo of her as reference for a painting I wanted to do. (did'nt get a photo, but did a painting anyway with what I had).
Jim's Ship Paintings, page4, #76 -'David and several Goliaths'

Default Re: WELCOME ! Info and faq for new members
Hi Im a new member .My name is Jim Rae I live in Fife Scotland.I am ex Merchant Navy and Royal Navy(Fleet Air Arm) which I left in 1968 I have since worked in Fire fighting and laterly in grounds maintainance. I retired in 2006 and now spend my time painting , mostly Naval and Aviation subjects.My latest project is a painting of H.M.S. JUNIPER,an admirality TREE class trawler which ,during the Norwegan campaign took on SCHARNHORST,GNEISENAU,ADMIRAL HIPPER and four destroyers,the outcome, after 90 minutes, was a foregone conclusion, the ship was sunk along with the tanker OIL PIONEER which she was escorting ,There were 4 survivors from JUNIPER from a complement of 35.I have photos of TREE class trawlers but they are all of minesweepers and JUNIPER was a A/S, so I would appreciate any photos of A/S TREE class any members might have or put me in touch with.
__________________

steve roberts

23-12-2009, 19:19

Hi Corrine,cant comenton japanese/USA animosity that still may exist.Dont hear much of that this side of the pond,but can understand why.The list of heroic acts by ships and crews is endless,but here is one I came accross when doing an essay for my restarted Open University course. Pre WW1 when submarines were in their infancy,they sank by the bucket load! In april 1910 the japanese submarine nuber six sank.She was using a primitive type of schnorkel,the flap valve failed partially flooding the boat.Her crew survived for 3hours before suffocating.When salvaged the following letter from her captain Lt.Sakuma.Qoute."To his Majesty:I am very sorry that,owing to my carelessnes,I have sunk his Majesties submarine and killed the officers and men under my orders:but i am glad and with pride that I inform you that the crew to a man have discharged their duties as sailors should with the utmost coolness until their dying moments.Sre I entreat you to look after the families of my men so that they do not starve.This is the only thing that bothers me" I know the japanese have a strict code of honour(Bushido I think) but this was one humane and compassionate man.Its a bit humbling to read his dying words. Steve

John Odom

23-12-2009, 20:15

Very touching, Steve.

Gypsyvannergirl

24-12-2009, 04:28

Okay

I never thought I'd add another naval disaster to this thread because I thought the battle between Hood and Bismark and the Bismark and everything else were probably the epitome of tragic.

However, kudos to HMS Glowworm, hopelessly outgunned against the Admiral Hipper, but in a last defiant gesture tried to ram the Admiral Hipper and do enough damage to put her out of action or at least perhaps sink her.

I sometimes think the words brave and gallant are overused - but not in this case. The crew of the Glowworm showed what true courage was and demonstrated to the Germans that England was not going anywhere without a damn good fight.

Way to go Glowworm - and her gallant and brave crew.

astraltrader

24-12-2009, 05:43

A picture for you Corrine. :)

Gypsyvannergirl

24-12-2009, 10:34

Thank you for the picture.

Sometimes these events hurt so damn much. Gotta go for a minute - can't see the screen properly through my tears.

She was a beautiful ship and her crew were so brave. I honestly don't know if I could face death so courageously.

She will have a special place in my remembrance book - along with HMS Hood and others.

Thank you so very much

steve roberts

24-12-2009, 15:12

Hi corrine.re your post on HMS Oxley,this is areally tragic story of mistaken identity.The skipper of Triton was aware that Oxlley was in the next area to him and on his lookouts sighting a submarine,they were uncertain of the nationality of the boat,but in the days when humanity still existed,they decided to give this boat the doubt instead of firing immediately.Three times they tried to signal her by lamp(why they did not try radio as both were on the surface has never been explained)On the forth atempt by lamp they also fired three green rifle grenades(The signal of recognition for the day)When absolutely no reply was recieved,Triton fired two torpedos.After the explosion she moved to the area and heard voices in the water,on shining the aldiss light on the water and saw three survivors.They rescued two,but the third disappeard.Only then was the tragic mistake discovered.Triton herself was sunk in the Med,on or about 6th december 1943? The italians claimed her sinking but the dates dont match when she was reported missing.The official explanation remains mined in the Strait of Otranto.Regards Steve.

steve roberts

24-12-2009, 16:20

Hi again Corrine. HMS TRITON was sunk in 1940 not 1943.All the other subs you mention can be found om http:/www.naval-history.net/ww2campaignsBritish Subs.htm.Individual boats are usually found on your usual search engine by name.Regards Steve.

Gypsyvannergirl

24-12-2009, 16:51

Thanks for your info Steve.

Right now I've managed to stir up a hornets nest, so to speak, on the Royal Navy Thread regarding a ship called HMS Wivern. It's actually turned out to be a funny thread because of the name - some list her as HMS Wivern, and some say she was HMS Wyvern. Fortunately the tone of the thread right now is kind of funny, although I'm no further ahead (so far) on my research. Naval-History.net refers to her as HMS Wivern so I have to believe he's right. (I hope)

astraltrader

24-12-2009, 17:14

Corrine - the answer is that Wivern is the correct official spelling, although many sources do misspell it Wyvern!!

steve roberts

24-12-2009, 18:17

Hi Corrine.Have seen your thread on HMS Wivern,told you history was a can of worms,especially with so many ships in so many Navies having the same or similar names.Its like trying to navigate a maze without a map!But keep going you will get there in the end, God willing.By the way great news from the Open University today,I can sit my exam for Fellowship in Naval History at our local college in January.I thought I had months more studying to do,but my time in Hospital does not count against me! Yipee!!!!!!!!

Gypsyvannergirl

24-12-2009, 18:46

Congratulations

You have earned this. Good luck and keep me posted.

Gypsyvannergirl

dennis a feary

26-12-2009, 16:02

Steve, the reason why TRITON did not use Radio was that they did not want to broadcast their position, also that they were close to Norwegian Territorial waters and at that time Norway was Neutral. There is also another explanation - that to fire signals from rifle granades would not give exact position away whereas a radio signal (or morse) would give exact location of the sending boat.
To have used radio would have given Jerry the position of the boats that were waiting for the vessels that were conveying iron ore from Norway to Germany.

Sadsac

red devil

26-12-2009, 23:58

I had a book published, in 2005, but unfortunately only available from the publishers web site which has dramatically slashed potential sales. Its called 'On A Sailors Grave (No Roses Grow)' and its underlying theme is the loss of life against compliment of the relevant ship. Bismarck, Hood, The Battle of the Atlantic, Scharnhorst, Wilhelm Gustloff, Kite, Athenia, Indianapolis, and also Exercise Tiger, as it was 'seaborne', are but a few of the contents. As they published it at their cost, there is nothing I can do about it.

steve roberts

27-12-2009, 10:06

Thanks Dennis.That answers my question on the use of radio,but has it ever been discovered why HMA Oley did not answer HMS Tritons challenge?After all her Captain wsa one of the two survivors picked up.They must have seen at least one of the challenges and if in doubt,dived.Perhaps they recognised Triton as British and assumed that Triton had done the same?

Dave Hutson

27-12-2009, 10:13

Steve,

Just read #116 - Good Luck with your Open University.

Dave H

steve roberts

27-12-2009, 19:20

Thanks dave,hopr I get subjects that I have covered,but god help me if i`m asked about Jutland.I never could make head nor tails of that.Steve

Dave Hutson

27-12-2009, 20:17

Steve,

Jutland was a Dinosaur, the end of battle in line, Jackie Fisher was a misnomer at this moment in time. If we look at this day what should he have done? If we look at it pre 1914 what would he have been expected to have done? ........... Only Jackie Fisher knew and history tells the rest.

Dave H

Note: I'm off thread agen, but you pose a question and the reply springs forth ... on thread or off ... there is a connection so SFA

steve roberts

28-12-2009, 11:20

Hi Dennis.Have found the answer to my question why Oxley did not reply to Tritons challenges.Her Skipper was called to the bridge and before he got there to Officer Of the Watch stated that he had tried to reply but was not shure it had been done correctly.On Oxley trying to fire rifle grenades in reply to the code of the day signal,the rifle iss fired and before things could be rectified Triton had fired her torpedoes. Regards Steve

Gypsyvannergirl

28-12-2009, 15:08

Here's the condensed version of what happened at the battle of Jutland.

Somebody screwed up big time, 6,000 sailors lost their lives and the Pride of the British Fleet was decimated.

Haven't got that far in my research yet. Thought the sinking of Cressy; Hogue and Aboukir was bad enough then learned about Jutland and went "What the h*** were they thinking?

I know there's more to it than that but I thought I'd give you a starting point, lol

steve roberts

28-12-2009, 16:38

Hi Corrine. My main perception of Jutland I dare not use in an exam,even as a hypothosis. Admiral Beatty was both foolish and out of order.The function of a Battlecruiser was to scout.Beatty`s ego and lust for glory drove him to expose Battlecruiser squadron to superior designed ships,he should have turned and run drawing the German fleet under the guns of Admiral Jellicoe`s Battle ships.Though I doubt that it would have been a great British victory as Jellico was still in the mind set of an Nelsonian Admiral and the Germans did not want to "Fight in Line" as was shown by Admiral Scheers brilliant handling of his ships!!!:eek:Thats torn it I can hear the air buzzing with indignation, but what the hell,it`s the way I read it with the benifit of Hindsight.Aw Shucks,perhaps I will use it as a theoretical Hypothesis,I might get more marks?;) lol Steve

Gypsyvannergirl

28-12-2009, 19:12

Actually you hit the nail on the head.

Their had to have been ego's involved - too many lives were lost that day for their not to have been.

I'm not going to pretend that I know much about Jutland, but I do know enough to know that Britain appeared to rely too much on their Admiral Nelson legends almost as if they wanted the other side to turn tail and run. Of course all that happened is that the more British ships that were sent out that day - the more that were sunk and the more lives were lost.

Wouldn't it have been better to find a safer place to plan out battle strategy and save a few more lives. I don't think they would have gone down in history looking as foolish as they did.

And to stir up even more controversy. Why was an aging ship, built in I believe 1918 and desperately in need of refitting and rearming allowed to take on a brand new German Battlecruiser - did they really believe that the HMS Hood could defeat the Bismarck? Was ego involved their too? If so, 1,400 men lost their lives, and another 1,000 or so when the Bismarck was sunk in retaliation and when the Scharnhorst went down even more men died, but not the 'samples' the British admiralty allowed to be rescued. Ego is the worst thing to have in any war because it makes you make decisions based on anger and not common sense.

Making decisions in the height of battle cannot be the easiest thing to do, but throwing lives away isn't the solution. Some thought process has to take place to even the odds. Gotta shut up now - hubby is telling me I'm too opinionated about things I don't know anything about and I have a feeling I've overstepped my bounds here. Sorry

I'm not writing this to anger anyone - and before someone makes a Canadian comment, I'm not Canadian - My family came over here but I never renounced my British Citizenship - I am proud of the country of my birth.

Gypsyvannergirl

Don Boyer

28-12-2009, 19:38

Egoism in wartime is a fact that has to be dealt with. In many cases, it leads to poor decision-making, and thusly more casualties than MIGHT have occurred otherwise. On the other hand, supreme confidence in oneself as a commander has in many cases led to victory and POSSIBLY less casualties than might have been the case. Like so many other things in warfare, the human personality can be a double-edged sword.

Look at the enormous egoism of General Douglas MacArthur...surrounded by his Bataan gang sycophants and butt-kissers, making poor decisions time and again because he refused to listen to opinions outside his own. Yet, after the war, that same ego lead Japan back from the edge of starvation to economic solidarity. He became the last Shogun, and a good one, brought down only by a new war once again outside his ability to deal with after the initial successes.

On the dark side, look at the enormous ego of an Adolf Hitler -- a little corporal with twisted morals who thought he could lead a war better than any of his generals or admirals who were raised for the job. The free world benefited greatly from such egoism, because he was an incompetent fool.

A German Army led by generals with a free hand and backed by a supply system built for the job would not have failed to take Stalingrad or Moscow. Casualties at Normandy might just have been unsustainable. ME-262s might have made the skies over Germany invulnerable to bombing. Might, might, might, what if what if what if --- human egos probably play a far bigger part in war than can ever be understood.

And I don't think that anyone need apologize for holding an opinion of a battle based on the personalities of the commanders engaged. As Harley says, though, one must have facts in hand to back the assumptions made, not just rage against the machine because you don't like the outcome or how the outcome was arrived at.

Sincerely, and Happy New Year to all,

steve roberts

28-12-2009, 20:08

Hi Corrine and Don. Two very good posts and no one I think will get upset and at the time of posting,I have been writting my theoretical hypothisis theory for my exam.AS the great Admiral Farragut said "Damn the torpedoes,Full steam ahead!" Regards and Happy New Year,Steve

Harley

28-12-2009, 23:49

Why was an aging ship, built in I believe 1918 and desperately in need of refitting and rearming allowed to take on a brand new German Battlecruiser - did they really believe that the HMS Hood could defeat the Bismarck?

When you're fighting with your backs to the wall, you have no choice. "Prince of Wales" and "Hood" were the ships watching the Denmark Strait, so they had to engage. "Bismarck" had to be sunk no matter what. The loss of "Hood" unfortunately comes under the heading "what".

As to Jutland, if one goes by what Scheer's own staff officers later wrote after the battle, he didn't know what the Hell was happening at any time during the battle and was extremely coy when asked what his tactical plan had been. He turned tail every time he saw the Grand Fleet's battleships. The only reason Scheer wanted the fleet out in late 1918 was for the dubious reason of saving the "Honour" of the German Navy. Beatty's poor leadership can certainly be held responsible for the loss of "Queen Mary" and "Indefatigable" - closing to within the enemy's gun range, failing to ensure that his ships obeyed the fire distribution order, and through sheer negligence losing the covering fire of the four best battleships in the world (the "Queen Elizabeth" Class).

As to the notion that "the Pride of the British Fleet was decimated" the Royal Navy lost three out of its ten battle cruisers (with another two larger and better ones nearly finished) and three obsolescent armoured cruisers, manpower and coal drains which were best suited for ocean convoy or trade patrol work. What mattered were the numbers of dreadnought battleships, and Britain didn't lose any and retained her growing numerical superiority, while the Germans took such a pasting in the brief periods of engagement that Scheer was compelled to inform the Kaiser that Germany could only win the war at sea beneath the waves. Eventually of course, Germany, lost that battle too.

Simon

Gypsyvannergirl

29-12-2009, 02:25

Thank you Harley.

I guess I spoke out of turn? The loss of HMS Hood is one of the most painful things I have ever seen (TV special). I wish more lives could have been saved. And I am certainly not minimizing both her brave effort and the effort of the Prince of Wales. Were there no other ships that could have been sent out to help?

As for Jutland - I am right now trying to get a copy of the book "Jutland 1916 - Death in the grey wastes." by Nigel Steel and Peter Hart. Next time I try to comment on something I know little about I'll keep in mind the good advice about reading up on the incident first.

My post was actually a response to Steve, joking with him about how he was going to cover Jutland for his course. My post back was a lame joke. For that I am sorry.

I won't be on Naval-Forum for a while so I hope my friends who I respect deeply will not forget me. The reason is that my bi-polar disorder is really bad right now. I can't get my mind to stop racing, especially at night when I so desperately need sleep. This is a particularly dangerous time for me because I just want the thoughts to stop and they wont. The nightmares in particular are absolutely awful and I am exhausted.

Sincerely,
Corinne

Harley

29-12-2009, 09:45

My apologies, Gypsyvannergirl, when it comes to the Royal Navy I turn into something of a fanatic, defending its honour and all that. Do stick around the forum, there are plenty of good knowledgeable people on it.

Steel and Hart's book, I hate to say, is as good a book as any to read about Jutland. I've got over two dozen books and articles concerning the battle and not one of them can be called definitive. Steel and Hart have many, many first-person accounts in their book which lends it a certain readability.

One account in particular gives a new and entirely plausible reason as to why Rear-Admiral Arbuthnot led the First Cruiser Squadron to destruction. On the other hand the mention of Captain Thomas Jackson is utter garbage, and shows that the authors' high level of research wasn't maintained all the way through the book.

Simon

steve roberts

29-12-2009, 10:07

Hi Corrine. Your inputs on the forum will be sadly missed,but I guess your health comes first(Speaking from past experience)Hang on in there girl,and come back fighting.lol Steve.

Dave Hutson

29-12-2009, 10:14

Hi Gypsyvannergirl,

Hope I have caught you before you disappear for a while.

A Happy New Year to you and yours ....... take good care of yourself and come back soon .... I for one read everything you post with great interest and judging by the responses you get so do a lot of others.

Never worry about criticism on the forum because that is what the forum is for ...... the exchange of information and opinions ..... some may not agree with everything you say but there is not one who would not defend your right to say it ...... we all learn something from every thread and long may it be so.

Keep posting girl .... in the words of L'Oreal .... you're worth it.

Dave H

astraltrader

31-12-2009, 21:41

Same for me Corrine. Your interest and enthusiasm here has been like a breath of fresh air.

I sincerely hope we do not lose you for long.

I really hope that 2010 turns out to be an exceptionally good year for you.:)

Don Boyer

01-01-2010, 05:54

Corrine:

All of us are with you while things are rough. Often darkest before the dawn, and we know you are strong and wiil pull through.

Hope you can continue at least a few posts, even small contributions are valued!

Take care!

Happy New Year

steve roberts

01-01-2010, 18:30

Hi Corrine.Good to see you back in the forum now and then.One sinking that I suppose effects me,on a humanitarian side,is how do you get 2,700 men to jointly agree to mass suicide? I refere of course to the Iapanese Battleship INJS YAMATO in April 1945.Japan was desperately short of every type of fuel oil by then.I know that the Japanese Military code of hounour was very very strict,but how do you get men who do not want to die to leave port? It was rumoured that YAMATO only had enough fuel for a one way trip,i would surmise that only the Senior Officers and Engineering Department would have known this.I suppose any "Doubting Thomas's" in the crew would have been seduced by the fact the her orders stated she was to be beached after her attack On American forces in Okinawa,therefore perhaps giving those who did not want to die the chance to become POW's though I doubt there would have been too many suvivors as she would have been attacked constantly because her 18 inch guns would have been too much of a threat to the Americans.Anyway none of that came to pass as she was sunk on her way to Okinawa!I dont know how many of her crew survived but it was very few. Regards Steve.

Gypsyvannergirl

01-01-2010, 18:50

According to Wikipedia - 2,498 crew lost their lives that day. So you're right, it seems it was a suicide mission. But that was the Japanese way wasn't it. Their Emperor was their God and if he wanted them to die for him they would do it willingly. We don't understand, but other cultures throughout history have done the same thing - committed suicide in their desire to please their God or Gods.

I tried an experiment once. For every ship I researched with casualties, I used a separate page and used a capital D to represent each one of that number. After five pages I gave up. 2,498 is just a number really, until you see in front of you 2,498 letters representing each life lost.

Sad really.

Peace
Gypsyvannergirl

steve roberts

01-01-2010, 19:04

Hi Corrine.Yes very sad,but thats what the code of BUSHIDO did and I should imagine still does to a certain extent today,but I wonder how the code stood up to the death of their Emporor HIROHITO.Was he not supposed to be a god,and is that why he was treated gentley after the war,to pacify the Japanese.I know he was a very weak willed man and easily led by people like Togo,but I still think he should have stood trial as a War Criminal. lol Steve.

John Odom

01-01-2010, 19:44

steve roberts

01-01-2010, 19:51

Thanks John.I suspected that that was the reason for the "Kid Gloves" Steve:cool:

astraltrader

01-01-2010, 22:01

The role of the emperor in the Showa War or WWII as we westerners call it is a very complicated one. He obviously had information and knew of the atrocities. His brother was at Nanjing in 1937, and reported fully to him. There is a question if he could have intervened. When he did decide to surrender, Junior officers attempted a coup to prevent the surrender, and that after the 2 A-bombs! My friends in Japan say they never knew what was really happening.

MacArthur's decision to protect the emperor was a tactical one. Only by so doing could he be assured of the control of the surrender and of the control of the Japanese population.

Although many have criticised MacArthur`s controversial decision to protect Hirohito from any war crimes trials and allow him to retain the throne I have always seen this as a wise move.
The bottom line is that MacArthur was the supreme power in Japan from 1945-1948 and during that time the country underwent both the fastest and most complete transformation ever recorded by a major power in modern history.
His treatment of the Emperor as well as the creation of a new constitution for Japan along with forcing the Diet into the taming of the zaibatsu allowing trade unions, were the prime reasons for this IMO.

It cannot be denied that in 1945 MacArthur inherited a Japan that beneath the surface both feared and distrusted America, yet by the time he left in 1950 to take over as UN Commander in Korea Japan was firmly entrenched within the sphere of US influence.

I am no devotee of MacArthur the General. His vanity led to far too many mistakes during both WW2 and Korea. I do however feel that he does deserve great credit for his roles as leader and statesman whilst "de facto shogun of Japan!"
In politics it is true to say that every decision has its price and I am sure that the lenient treatment of Hirohito was partly responsible for the reluctance of many Japanese to apologise for and fully acknowledge their appalling war crimes.

Nevertheless on balance I remain convinced it was the right thing to do.

I have however put on my helmet and fully expect the half-bricks to follow!

steve roberts

01-01-2010, 22:05

Well posted Terry. It makes the reasons much easier to understand! Happy New Year. Steve.:)

Don Boyer

02-01-2010, 02:21

The fate of battleship Yamato is always fascinating because of it's overall tone of suicidal sacrifice. However, Yamato had plenty of fuel on board, far more than needed for a one-way trip. As stated in Russell Spur's "A Glorious Way to Die," and other sources, Yamato was fueled with everything they could get in her. they had men in the shore tanks sucking the bottom out of them to get all the fuel they could. They were not going to send the last samurai out with only half a tank of gas. The myth probably arose because there simply wasn't much naval fuel left by that time in the war.

Her sortie, foolish in the extreme, was triggered more by a comment of the Emperor's than any actual advance planning. Informed by the Imperial Council of the Army's plans for the fighting on Okinawa which commenced on April 1, 1945, he is reported to have remarked "But what of the navy?" meaning what was the navy going to do to assist the army. Those present weren't about to admit that the navy had nothing to respond with, but the Emperor's implied statement that the navy had better be doing something was taken seriously, and Yamato, light cruiser Yahagi and the destroyers were soon dispatched, the only ships available that could sortie as far as Okinawa.

All the senior officers knew what was expected and what had been said. The mood was not the suicidal sacrifice in the extreme it was made out to be after the war (especially by the Japanese, who have made a mythical mess out of the ship), although there were the usual ritual "banzais." It was simply a sortie of what they had left that could fight and of course it was immediately ground up by the Fast Carrier Task Forces. No navy in the world could withstand and onslaught from that group of carriers by this time in the war, much less one that had been worn down by four years of war. The immediacy and violence of her demise and that of her escorts made her end seem all that much more sacrificial, as she stood no chance at all of ever reaching Okinawa.

Today the Japanese have a giant model of the ship -- 1/10 scale I believe -- in a museum and have a big screen epic movie on the ship. They make a lot more out of her than the realities of naval construction and operations can support. She had big guns --- really big guns -- but was probably less effective as a fighting ship than any of the American Iowa's due to design flaws and being technically about five years out of date. But she is still held in high regard in Japan, but a bit foolishly, like her sad end..

steve roberts

02-01-2010, 10:55

Hi Don.Good post.I seem to recall that Yamato and her sistr Musashi were deemed to have insufficent anti-aircraft armament and therefor were very susseptable to air attack! Regards Steve.:confused:

steve roberts

02-01-2010, 14:30

Re my post #85 Sidon/Scorpion.I have discovered a wonderful web site,by a former member of Scorpion's crew.It's http://www.decklog.com/SSN589.asp. If you view this site click on the Video section link and there is a computor generated simulation of the sinking.It just does not bear thinking about,what those guys must have thought,riding her down to crush depth. Steve.:(

John Odom

02-01-2010, 19:23

The Yasukuni Shrine in Tokyo has a wonderful museum with a great exhibit about the Yamato. I visited it in 2004, with one of my "Japanese Granddaughters" to translate. I had not gone earlier because the place is a considered little hostile for foreigners, and no signs or captions are in English. My Japanese friends had advised me not to go alone, and had not volunteered to take me. The exhibits are blatantly pro-Japanese and anti-American.

The Japanese often call themselves the "Yamato People," and loss of their namesake ship was devastating. According to Shinto belief, the spirits of all those lost on her are enshrined there. As Sayuri read to me letter after letter of lost sailors, written to their families before their departure, I cried. I felt sorry for Sayuri, a then 22yr old cute Japanese girl holding the hand of a crying old American man! War is so terrible and ultimately both senseless and sometimes necessary.

Bee

02-01-2010, 22:13

Hi Gypsyvannergirl and others,

Been quietly following this very deserving thread of yours.

I feel that any loss of life at sea is a tragedy, whether it be one or many, especially when that life is lost in service to ones country and countrymen.
I feel especially for those whose fates were never known....what a horrible way for a family to lose a loved one. Then there's those who may have survived disasters who carry mental and/or physical scars for the rest of their lives. That is a great loss too.

Anyway, the main reason I'm posting now, is (having been woken early...4a.m., by our local constabulary informing us that our son's car had been broken in to...I couldn't get back to sleep and have spent the past couple of hours reading and surfing the net.) Thus I happened upon this....which I thought might be of interest to some of you....as it relates to a debate in posts from a few months ago and looks like it might contain some answers.

http://www.hmsdasher.co.uk/intro.html

Regards,
Bee
p.s. Hope things are getting better for you Corrine and that 2010 will be a good year.

JarrowDave

03-01-2010, 04:30

Corrine,

The blokes that went down on the "Mighty Hood" were just the same as the blokes that did their duty on all the other boats in His or Her Majesty's Navy. You wear the uniform and you take your chance.

Nevertheless, think of this, the Andrew's Matelots stopped the slave trade fifty years before Abraham Lincoln did, and during WWII, they handed Adolf Hitler his head in his hands. Just two examples.

What they did was the proper thing that a decent man would do.

And they did it!

Take Care

JD

jonti

03-01-2010, 05:02

The sinking of HM Submarine Truculent in the Thames Estuary on Jan 12th 1950 (all detailed in thread ' Peace Time Sub Losses' 22/5/08) was the one which touched me most.
Truculent had refitted in Chatham and I was a Chatham rating.
The accident happened in the Thames Estuary and I lived in Southend on the north side of the Estuary.
I joined the RN in May 1949, only 8 months previously but never volunteered for "Boats" in my 14 years. Rob T

Gypsyvannergirl

03-01-2010, 10:35

Thanks for your input Rob.

Submarine 'accidents' have always filled me with more dread than some of the other incidents that have occurred. Although the loss of life isn't the same as a Battleship or Battlecruiser etc., the chances for survival are slim to none if something goes wrong.

I have read up on some submarine disasters: USS Thresher; USS Scorpion; USS Squalus (Great book to read on this situation: The terrible hours by Peter Maas - the best non-fiction book I have read to date and a real eye-opener to the struggles to rescue men from a vessel that has plunged to the bottom of the sea). I also think of the HMS Thetis; INS Dakar; and the Russian sub Kursk.

Trust me, I suffer from claustrophobia and even thinking about what those men went through is absolutely awful to me.

Several people on this forum have mentioned other Submarines - such as yourself - and I've started a separate document in respect to these men who are sadly "Eternally on Patrol" - Rest in Peace guys - You may not know it but there is a whole forum of people here who will NEVER let you be forgotten.

Peace
Gypsyvannergirl

steve roberts

03-01-2010, 12:56

Well said Corrine. As often quoted "The sea is the only enemy" and "There are no flowers on a sailors grave" The last quote your research and determined effort, will ensure that although there are no flowers,their names live on. Well Done or as we say in the Navy "BRAVO ZULU" REgards Steve.:)

Gypsyvannergirl

03-01-2010, 13:08

One day I was watching an episode of the Sea Hunters and they were searching for a submarine (I don't remember which one) when they came upon another one that they didn't know about.

The sea was murky - the currents strong and the ocean vegetation was swaying in the current like the branches of trees caught in a strong wind. I didn't get the feeling that it was the safest dive, but Mike and Warren Fletcher are world class divers and know what they are doing. I don't think they ever found out which sub it was - and that was heartbreaking enough - but the hatches were still shut, meaning that the crew never made it out. I'm not ashamed to admit I cried. And I wondered how many more there were out there. I guess we'll never know.

Rest in Peace
Nothing's forgotten
Gypsyvannergirl

steve roberts

03-01-2010, 13:37

Hi corrine. I think the U-Boat may be U689? There are numerous U-Boat wrecks around both the British Coast and the USA Coast.Lots have been Identified but some mysterys remain.I was once on a ship that was taking unmanned deep TV pictures over the sight where lots of U-Boats that had surrendered were Scuttled.Watching the pictures in "RealTime" was wierd,but at least we knew that no one was down there. lol Steve:)

steve roberts

03-01-2010, 14:08

Re my last post.Boat#869. U-boat 689 never commissioned.Steve.:o

emason

03-01-2010, 18:33

Although these have been mentioned before, they nevertheless made the greatest impression upon me because I was still an young boy and could not imagine a worse prolonged death.

HMS Truculent in 1950, HMS Affray in 1951 and HMS Sidon in 1955. I followed the rescue attempts in the newspapers and willed them to succeed. Three disasters within five years made a lasting impression and probably sparked my initial interest in the Royal Navy, and earned my deep respect for all RN crew.

steve roberts

14-01-2010, 20:08

Hi Gang.This thread has been quiet for a little while,but I have found something I did not even know I was indirectly involved with.I have had a suitcase full of my late mothers papers etc for some time,since joining the forum I decided to look through it to see if there was anything I might be able to post.Imagine my suprise when reading an early diary of hers that I came across HMS Courageous! My Mothers brother Leading airfitter Fredrick James Mitchell aged 21 was lost with her. She was Torpedoed in the Western Approaches at 1939hrs on 17th September 1939 by U-29(Kapitan-Leutnant Otto Schuhart) and went down with great loss of life.I now have a photo of her sinking as my Screensaver in honour of an Uncle I never knew. Steve.66210

Gypsyvannergirl

14-01-2010, 20:36

That's really moving, Steve, and brings home very clearly that those who fought (and died) in those battles were real people with real families. Thanks for sharing that with us.

Gypsyvannergirl.

I don't have anyone that close to me who was involved in the war. I know my step-mothers great grandfather fought in World War 1 and was gassed. What happened to him, I have no idea, my step-mom and I haven't spoken in six years. (She's very religious and I'm an unrepentant sinner:D)

My father who is a member of the Royal Canadian Legion, served his country (England) by carrying sticks around as weapons in the 1950's (they weren't allowed guns or so he told me), when he served with the Peace Keepers in Cyprus. The only army photo I remember seeing of him was him peeling a huge stack of potatoes. (I hate my father too, and have no respect for him as a man, father or soldier????????????????????????????????). Actually, I know this isn't naval but perhaps someone can tell me why they were there and what exactly they were doing, because I doubt he's the hero he pretends to be. (He only goes to the Legion to drink himself into oblivion and pay their mortgage with his boozing money).

My husband's brother is in the Canadian Army and is a Captain and has seen some horrific things, and my respect for him is 100% plus.

Sorry, my bitterness came out at the wrong time.

My deepest respects go to those who are true naval and war heroes. It's just so important that you never ever be forgotten.

I am so, so sorry to everyone on this forum. I truly did not realize how deeply bitter and resentful I am deep inside. Please do not let my bitterness demean anyone on this forum who knew someone who made that ultimate sacrifice so that we could be free.

Gypsyvannergirl

steve roberts

14-01-2010, 20:58

Hi Corrine.Three things. 1 keep going on the forum you are probably helping yourself more than you know letting off steam.We all understand and respect your continued presence.Remember a problem shared is a problem halved!.2 Your fathe in Cyprus as a Peace keeper,he was more than likely in a UN pEace keeping role during the E.O.K.A. crisis.Though once again the UN was usless.3 Gassing in the First world war.It depended on the type of gas.Phosgene induced a "Drowning effect and was usually fatal,so its more likely your relative was subjected to Mustard Gas,which caused intense painful blisering on the exposed skin ans usually a temporary blindness,but rarely fatal.Unless ahuge overdose was endured. Best wishes and Regards your friend Steve. Ps now sit my exam in Feb.God willing.!!!:)

Gypsyvannergirl

14-01-2010, 21:39

The greatest of Congratulations and everything I have is crossed, fingers, toes, but not eyes, sorry.:D

Somehow I remember as a younger child, when we lived in England, my step-grandmother, who would have been his grand-daughter speaking of Mustard Gas because I know I've never heard of the other one you mentioned.

But I do find myself thinking about the man he must have been. Obviously very very brave:)

Gypsyvannergirl

John Odom

14-01-2010, 23:08

When I was about 5, and my mother was taking care of her father in his terminal illness, I stayed with a family on a Bee farm in Florida. The farmer had been gassed with Chlorine in WWI. He had severely impaired lung function. I enjoyed his stories.

Big Al

16-01-2010, 23:02

Mine has to be the loss of HMAS Voyager when she was in collision with HMAS Melbourne on the 11th February 1964, and we were dispatched to the area to search for survivors. 82 Officers and Ratings perished in the Collision. Melbourne was also involved in a collision with the USS Frank E Evans in 1969 with the loss of 74 American sailors in much the same senario as the Voyager sinking.

Gypsyvannergirl

16-01-2010, 23:26

Gosh, I hope there were survivors. An incident such as that one can haunt a person forever. Can you let us know if survivors were found?

On a less friendly note. This disaster touched me, but not in a nice way. I kind of found it to be one of those poetic justice moments.

Three aging ships HMS Aboukir, HMS Cressy and HMS Hogue were all torpedoed by U-19 who then went on to take out HMS Hawke a few days later.

Of Course the commander of that sub received accolades galore from his government for the lives he had taken - I'm sure he was sporting awards on his puffed out chest.

Here's the almost poetic justice part. He then gets transferred to U-29 which is then run over by HMS Dreadnought and sunk. I think the 'poor' guy had about three weeks to enjoy his rise in status before it was taken away from him.

I want to stress, I do not like accidents or sinkings of submarines, I cannot think of a worse way to die - unless you're on a ship - trying to pick up survivors from another ship and your ship is torpedoed out from underneath you. When I think of the Captain of the U-Boat, I just remind myself of the 1,459 men he killed on the three Cressy class ships and I don't know how many men killed on the Hawke and realize that when his sub went down he had some time left, I hope, to spare a thought for what he had done. :(

Maybe even feel a little regret
I can hope, can't I?

Gypsyvannergirl

Steve, I have the utmost respect for submariners and what they experience. This is not my way of going 'serves you right' to the men on U-29. 'Eye for an eye; tooth for a tooth' does not finish off by saying four ships sunk therefore one submarine must pay the price. It seems to almost be a freak accident that happened to involve the commander responsible for the loss of four British ships.

steve roberts

17-01-2010, 11:12

Hi Corrine. Dont worry even though I was a Submariner,that swine had everything coming to him.He must repeat MUST have known that survivors were being picked up,but what is called "Throat Ache" (Desire for medals) must have brought on blood lust.Unfortunately it happened in WW2 as well.More survivors of the Bismark could well have been picked up,were it not for an imminent submarine warning signal.As an aside,have a look at Ships Pets for the story of Oscar,Bismarks cat:)I now sit my exam Feb 1st. Best wishes& Regards Steve.

Scurs

17-01-2010, 12:24

For bravery in submarines, it takes some beating the story of the first ever succesful submarine attack.............17th February 1864.

CSS HUNLEY succesfully sunk USS HOUSATONIC, but sunk herself into the bargain.

steve roberts

17-01-2010, 13:30

Hi Scurs. Talk about an unlucky ship,she had sunk twice already on trials killing both the crews.The brave guys who manned her when she sank the Housatonic must have thought they had got away with it.It was estimated that the wave surge of the explosion swamped her. Regards Steve.

Scurs

17-01-2010, 14:56

Hi Steve............I saw a programme about her, on one of the sky channels, some time ago.............about the discovery and salvaging of the wreck. As far as I am can recall it was never positively established what sunk her.........but ramming a ship, in a submarine, with an explosive charge on the end on a long spar, makes your explanation as likely as any! Another one I heard was that they simply ran out of air?
She did have this tendency to submerge wonderfully well....but was reluctant to surface again, as they found out in trials.
VERY brave men though.....!

buster088929

17-01-2010, 17:18

Yes, my husband told me about Scapa Flow, the HMS Royal Oak and the HMS Vanguard which I believe was an internal explosion.

So many promising young lives cut short. Thank goodness there are people like you to remember them.

For me, the Battle of Jutland is hard to research. I don't know how many ships were destroyed or lives lost, my reserch hasn't taken me that far but I have read about the HMS Aboukir (I think I spelled it right), HMS Cressy and HMS Hogue and I wonder why they were sent out when there were questions about whether they could survive a battle.

Rest in Peace those of you who have perished on the oceans of the world..We won't forget you.

Peace also to the families, friends and loved ones left behind.

Especially Peace to everyone on this forum who will not let these brave men be forgotten.

an excellent book on the R.N. in the first world war is called "castles of steel" cannot remember the author but it should be easy to find,i know waterstones have it on the shelf.

steve roberts

17-01-2010, 17:46

an excellent book on the R.N. in the first world war is called "castles of steel" cannot remember the author but it should be easy to find,i know waterstones have it on the shelf.

I think Gypsyvannergirl already has this book,but others might not.So worth while posting.Cheers Steve

Gypsyvannergirl

18-01-2010, 02:30

Thanks

I do have "Castles of Steel" - (what a great title for a book) and while I was at it I purchased his other book "Dreadnought". Those two alone will give me enough reading for the next three years - but then I ordered Jutland 1916 from the local library and another book on the Falkland Island War. Plus I got Patrick Robinson's new novel about a future war in the Falkland Islands. :D

Lots of reading - but at least it takes my mind off my daughter.

Good luck on your exams Steve. Oh I made a boo-boo. The sub that sank HMS Aboukir, HMS Cressy and HMS Hogue and HMS Hawke was U-9 I believe. At least that's what it said on the Internet.

The Guy was still a Jerk!!!!!!!

As for the pet posts, I've printed some of them off (hope that's okay) and shared them with a few people. The parrot one was a hit, so was the kitty who survived several ships sinking - poor thing he must have thought he was jinxed. Maybe he should have been named that - it fits.

Regarding Housatonic/Hunley episode - What amazed me the most was that after it sank twice with total loss of crew they still managed to find volunteers to go out again. Bravery for the cause or sheer stupidity - take your pick.

And talk about claustrophobia - I could not imagine anything that compact and I certainly would not be sitting in it. The charge on the end of the spar was supposed to come loose when it went into the hull of the Housatonic, but it didn't go exactly according to plan and the Hunley almost went down with the ship. According to Clive Cussler, whose Sea Hunters found the Hunley - after sinking the Housatonic she was following a flare light back to the coast when she suddenly disappeared. That light was something of a mystery which is one of the reasons it took so many years to find her.

Gypsyvannergirl

steve roberts

18-01-2010, 10:03

Hi Corrine.I thinkk you will Enjoy Ghost Force,I did,though it is rather impropable.It has been poo pooed on the forum but all Patrick Robins books I have REALLY enjoyed. Best wishes Steve.:D:D:D PS Thanks for the good luck wishes

INVINCIBLE

18-01-2010, 11:09

an excellent book on the R.N. in the first world war is called "castles of steel" cannot remember the author but it should be easy to find,i know waterstones have it on the shelf.

"Castles of Steel" and "Dreadnought" are by Robert Massie and are truly excellent books. I have plenty of books on WW I at sea but "Castles of Steel" is the best. I most strongly recommend them and only wish he would do a similar book on WW II.

JarrowDave

18-01-2010, 13:36

SS Lancastria was the most costly British loss. Depending on which account you read there were between 4,000 and 9,000 service men, diplomats and probably general refugees crammed onto a boat built to carry 2,000 when she was sunk by the Luftwaffe while trying to escape from France in 1940.

I always think that troopships give a new meaning to the word claustrophobia.

Best evacuation of a troopship was Empire Windrush -1954. Two engineers lost, probably in the initial explosion. Everybody else got off. It was a textbook example of how to evacuate a burning ship.

Corinne,

If you ever get to London, you might want to take a look at the Merchant Navy War Memorial. It's just across the road from the Tower of London. It has a plaque for each of the hundreds of ships lost in both world wars and under each ship name are listed the members of the crews that didn't make it.

No known grave but the sea!

Best to go on a sunny day when the flowers are out, it's a bit more cheerful. Nevertheless, I always found it an uplifting place to visit.

JD

Don Boyer

18-01-2010, 18:24

I think one has to take care to understand all the aspects of submarine warfare in the context of the period in which the particular operations occurred. There has been a lot written about the "barbarism" of submarine warfare, particularly about those on the losing end of two World Wars and a great deal of it is correct. But not all. The atrocities of the Japanese toward survivors in the water in WWII is well documented by original Japanese and other records, and is well understood everywhere except Japan, where they pathetically attempt to act clueless even after 70 years.

In World War I, the waffling of the Kaiser re submarine warfare left the waters very murky as to what submarine operations were "legal," "illegal" or what might be considered bad form in the extreme, like sinking the Lusitania.

It is obvious that the idiotic "stop and search" rules that subs were supposed to operate under were ridiculous in the extreme and the obvious result of committee thinking, another example of where the spineless combined with the clueless to produce the worthless.

However, in the case of U-9, Otto Weddigen and Aboukir, Cressy and Hogue the situation to me is fairly clear; those three armored cruisers were warships operating in a warzone on wartime patrol with complete awareness that they shared the waters with U-boats. They were a type of ship that should not have been involved in that duty to start with. Stopping to assist survivors in the water under the assumption that the culprit was mines was not the brightest conclusion that could have been made by the RN officers concerned.

However, submarine warfare was new and not well understood by non-submariners. I don't think Otto Weddigen was rapaciously searching for glory in sinking those three ships, I think he was doing his job. Frankly, given the same circumstances, with me in command of U-9, I would have done the same thing, not passing up the opportunity to cause major damage to the enemy because he is engaged in rather foolish actions. Remember, following this series of sinkings, the rules changed -- RN ships were told NOT to stop and rescue if submarine attack was suspected, but to get the heck out of the way. Those in the water, unfortunately, would have to fend for themselves, at least for a time. This rule itself, sparked by a brutal but legal attack on RN ships, was a cruel decision to have to make, but the right one, even though it was as certain a death sentence for many sailors as were the torpedoes launched against the three cruisers.

Naturally, the British newspaper articles of the day ravaged the Germans for their supposed cruelty in this series of sinkings, but it is obvious that the Royal Navy, thinking tactically and not emotionally (and not trying to sell newspapers) thought differently, based on the decisions they made to change the rules of engagement.

Warfare is cruel, nasty, senseless business in the extreme. The only goal one can have when it is thrust upon one’s nation is total victory so you can set the rules once again to try to avoid future conflicts. It would seem that humans could put their efforts into things more constructive, but a glance at the newspapers this morning, or the history records of 10,000 years ago show that it has never happened that way. I see little hope for tomorrow, either. Some will say this is a pretty harsh view of humanity, but I feel it is just realistic. Thus the quote I use in my posts regarding warfare in general.

emason

18-01-2010, 18:46

"Castles of Steel" and "Dreadnought" are by Robert Massie and are truly excellent books. I have plenty of books on WW I at sea but "Castles of Steel" is the best. I most strongly recommend them and only wish he would do a similar book on WW II.

I have to agree. "Castles of Steel" is a very fine and readable book.

steve roberts

18-01-2010, 19:11

Well posted Don.A very Even handed explaination,but then your posts always are. Regards Steve;)

Don Boyer

18-01-2010, 21:49

Steve, thanks...very kind comments.

Best regards,

Gypsyvannergirl

19-01-2010, 05:11

Hey Don,

You know I hold you in the highest regard so I am very respectful when I say that while I agree with you in most of what you said, I have a little difficulty with some other things that you said.

When I was researching the Wars of the Roses, for the novel I never seemed to have time to write, I realized that cruelty in war is to be expected. 'No quarter given' seems to be the standard of whatever engagement happens to be taking place (Yeah!!! I know - Remember the Alamo).

But when World War One started - before the cruelty got out of hand - there was 'quarter' given in some naval disputes.

The HMS Amphion, I believe maneuvered between the destroyers HMS Lance and HMS Landrail to prevent them from sinking a German vessel carrying the German Ambassador back to Germany. Other ships showed some consideration when stopping to pick up survivors of ships that had been torpedoed, thus saving lives that might otherwise have been lost. I read somewhere that even in World War 2, survivors of the Bismarck built up a camaraderie with some of the men from the HMS Dorchester (I think I got that one right) building friendships that endured after the war.

As far as I can see, there was no mercy shown to the HMS Aboukir, HMS Hogue, HMS Cressy, or HMS Hawke and for there to be that kind of hatred so early in a War that had barely started seems unreasonable to me.

As for RMS Lusitania, and other hospital ships like Llandovery Castle - in my opinion no civilian ships should have been torpedoed - especially hospital ships - even if there was some belief that armaments were on board without allowing the passengers, crew, nurses etc some time to disembark. Then the ship was expendable along with whatever armaments they believed to be on board - but as in the case of the Llandovery Castle - shooting the surivors as they sat helpless in lifeboats was murder in my honest opinion - not war and there was and is no justification for that.

I think that every Commander of a vessel needs to just take a deep breath before making a decision about what action to take. And not make a decision based on how many medals they are going to get if they kill as many people as they can.

I hate it when I read reports on the Internet that casually talk about this number of men were vaporized when a torpedo hit where the munitions were stored. Do they even stop to think about what just happened. Human beings were extinguished completely as if they had never been - realistically portrayed, I might add in the movie 'Pearl Harbor - (the only scenes of the movie that made any sense). And drowning is not the painless death often portrayed in novels and movies - it is an excruciatingly painful way to die when the lungs and ears literally burst from the force of the water - and so is death from hypothermia.

I do agree that War ships in war zones during times of war are fair game - but it's never a bad thing to show a little mercy.

Thanks for your honest opinion to my earlier post about Aboukir, Cressy and Hogue. I hold you in the highest respect Don - and being a woman I"m sure I see things a little more emotionally than a person trained for battle. I'm also a mother of a 27-year-old son so I think of every young man killed as someones son, brother, uncle, or even father.

Peace to you.:)
Gypsyvannergirl

Don Boyer

19-01-2010, 06:41

Hi, Corinne:

Appreciate your post very much. I know I come off many times as rather harsh about the realities of war. The reason for it is war is full of harsh realities that do not sit well with loving mothers, women in general, and the educated humanity that counts for something in this world. Unfortunately, best wishes don't resolve the problems of satanic dictators or school yard bullies. There just comes a time when the plows are put in the barn and the Kentucky long rifle comes down from above the mantlepiece because to not do so means the end of everything worth holding dear.

It's like reading the Bible, the Koran, the Jewish Holy books or the great Hindu histories...all full of love and understanding, outlining a path of righteous living, portraying a promised land of fruitful life, yet full of history that tallies an almost unbelievable body count as kings, princes, and the downtrodden strike out at all around them for whatever sins they perceived as needing righting.

It's never made the slightest bit of sense to me. Its like humanity has a permanently installed electrical malfunction in the brain that prompts humans to perpetrate brutal conduct over and over and over for what in many cases is merely a matter of forcing a personal world view on the rest of the world at whatever cost is required in blood. Like what the Moslems are trying to do today.

And it's a two-way street with little moral ground between. The brutal senseless atrocities of a Stalin bear no comparison to the noble uprising of the downtrodden against tyranny, yet both cost enormous amounts of blood, often the blood of the innocent mingled without remorse with the blood of the guilty.

One is completely unnecessary; the other is absolutely necessary if mankind is to eventually live up to his noble view of himself. Yet both are steeped in blood. Go figure.

You are correct that in the course of WWI, particularly early on, there were vestiges of the noble conduct of knights in armor, but it was, in the end, an illusion, the dying embers of an age that could not face the industrialization of killing. Nobility does not survive machine guns or torpedoes out of the darkness. Nobility does not do much but provide some salve for the soul in a war that calls for anything but if you'd like to have your children wake up in a world where the sun shines and the jackboot fears to tread. There is no middle ground.

You and I will probably never quite see eye to eye on this business of killing on the field of honor (or dishonor, as the case may be). For this I am actually grateful. It is nice to have someone to throw out a balancing opinion, and it is even nicer to know that humanity does, indeed, embrace very human people with true heart and true feelings for humanity such as yourself. I can tell that you were, and are, a great mother and a good woman, and I am sure you are loved very much by those close to you (even if some don't quite "get" it yet). It is the hearts and minds of people such as yourself, that will, in the end, define humanity. We old warriors, right or wrong, will simply fade away.

steve roberts

19-01-2010, 09:55

Hi Corrine and Don. Another pair of brilliant posts. At last Don I have something to bring an issue to you.Does not the Jewish holy book The Talmud,insist on an eye for an eye and smite them hip and thigh? This is also mentioned in the Holy Bible.Taken in context however it is mentioned in defence only,though thr first is a lttle like revenge.With words like these it is easy to see how Radicals can twist things to their own ends.All other holy books have no mention of violence.Regards & Best Wishes to you Both. Steve

John Odom

19-01-2010, 17:10

The Bible,(both old and new testaments) the Koran, Talmud, and probably every other writing considered Holy, have been twisted to justify violence. The Bushido code of Japan was deliberately twisted by the Japanese militarists to justify their vicious form of war. The Bible was even twisted to support slavery and the segregation in the US. One must take a book AS A WHOLE to see what it really teaches. A few verses taken out of context can be used as an excuse to do what ever one wants to do.

Gypsyvannergirl

19-01-2010, 17:16

Hey Don and Steve,

Thanks for both of your posts.

Don, I see clearly what you are saying and it made me wonder if I am trying to see wars through rose-tinted glasses so to speak.

As I recall, the Knights weren't always the kindest people in the world - they were perfectly capable of and often did slaughter innocent people just because they were knights and the people beneath them were expendable.

I think for me, perhaps just finding that one or two people who extended mercy when they didn't have too brings a little humanity to something that isn't always easily explainable or even understandable. Because I am focused on Naval warfare, I tend to forget the millions of people caught up in land battles, directed sometimes by men who didn't know what they were doing and costing too many lives for a piece of land they didn't even need in the long run.

The HMS Aboukir, Cressy, Hogue and Hawke were war ships, in war zones and in a war - therefore you are right - they were fair game.

U-29 was also in a war zone, was a war submarine and involved in a war - therefore when HMS Dreadnought ran over it - again, it was fair game. (Did HMS Dreadnought even realize they had run over the sub).:eek:

I have the greatest respect for everyone on this forum. I consider many of you to be friends. And I truly appreciate the honest discussions that go back and forth and help explain a subject that is new to me.

So keep it coming guys.

Steve, the part of the Bible that talks about "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. etc," refers only to the Israelite nation and only applied to people who committed serious crimes and were unrepentant. It was never meant to be taken as a mantra for justifying killing someone. From my Police Services course, the actual legal precedents that the world is following now seem to come from the Code of Hammurabi, a Babylonian, whose laws definitely allowed people to lose their lives over fairly trivial things at times. Perhaps a better scripture to apply would be Ecclesiastes 8:9 where wise King Solomon admitted that "man has dominated man to his injury."

In conclusion - I will not be on the forum for a few days. I am unwell - I have been having blinding migraine headaches; bouts of severe depression; and overusing medication to try to compensate for both problems. I'm going into the hospital to try to get everything under control.

I wish what you said was true Don, but no, the only person who is standing beside me at this difficult time is my husband - my family disowned me many years ago.

Take care everyone
Peace to all of you
Gypsyvannergirl

steve roberts

19-01-2010, 17:26

Hi Corrine.Brilliant post,you too Don.Take care Corrine and come back to us soon.I think I speak for everyone on the forum.We WILL Miss you inputs Peace and God's blessings be with you.Speedy recovery Girl! Best Wishes Steve.:o:o

emason

19-01-2010, 18:48

On the subject of humanity in warfare, there is a true story of an encounter between two officers, one British the other German during the Battle of the River Po in Italy during WW2.

During a lull in the fighting, due to thick fog, the British officer responding to a call of nature, walked a little distance away from the camp. Just as he found a spot to stop, he heard the sound of a tank approaching which slowly emerged from the fog about 20 yards away. It was German!

The tank, with an officer standing in the turret, stopped. The British officer also stopped and, after a few motionless moments each eying the other, slowly started to draw his pistol. The German officer, seeing him drawing his gun, slowly waggled his finger from side to side shaking his head, then tapped the barrel of his 88mm gun - as if to say "I've got a bigger one than you". The British officer replaced his gun and both withdrew in the fog.

Humour as well as humanity defines what we are.

emason

19-01-2010, 19:16

One of the most memorable examples of humanity in warfare is the Christmas truce of 1914 in the trenches, where a spontaneous, informal truce was arranged between the British and German soldiers. They exchanged presents of cigarettes and beer, sang carols, played football matches and even visited each others trenches.

You can read more about it here.

http://www.firstworldwar.com/features/christmastruce.htm

steve roberts

19-01-2010, 19:27

Hi Bill.I remember my Gdad talking about that.One of the few times he talked about the war.There was a very good French made made film on TV over Xmas called " Merry Christmas" It dealt with the truce from German,French and British sides,and what happened to the units involved after the truce.Regards Steve.

Don Boyer

20-01-2010, 02:03

"I wish what you said was true Don, but no, the only person who is standing beside me at this difficult time is my husband - my family disowned me many years ago."

Well I, for one, am standing by you.

Come back soon.

Everybody has the picture on the great religions. All the written works can be twisted or selectively quoted to support about any ridiculous anti-social position. The Bible and all supposedly great works are full of the smiting and this and that. Tends to make one highly suspicious of the motivations of the original authors. What amazes me is that amongst all that are some of the greatest passages of human philosophy ever put on paper. Go figure.

And, for the record, let me state here that I make absolutely no claim whatsoever of expertise in any of the great religious tracts. I have read them selectively, if at all. But I have studied extensively the actions of those masses of humanity who have waved one or another of the great texts in the air to support their cause, and so far -- with a few brilliant exceptions -- I have not been impressed by any great degree of humanity being shown by any of the them. Of course, even worse, I have to admit, are those who had no great book to live by --Stalinism (which is what communism was in the end) and Nazism come to the fore, as do the actions of certain Asian leaders.

steve roberts

20-01-2010, 13:12

Hi Don. I suppose you could add Chairman Mao and his little red book tothe list? Regards Steve.:)

Don Boyer

21-01-2010, 01:17

And isn't Chairman Mao interesting?

Years ago that huge red bordered picture of him was everywhere, the bogeyman of democracies around the world. Another version of the "yellow hordes" ready to pour down upon the innocents. The Cold War goes poof and now it's like "Mao who?" Even China has finally gotten some perspective on him.

One has to admit though, his intestinal fortitude far exceeding anything the Kuomintang ever came up with -- 'Peanut," indeed.

Bee

21-01-2010, 16:38

Sorry to interupt this thread with a post that should have been included way back......but I've just found this at my parent's place.
As a bit of background.... the young sailor mentioned (Charles Edward Conlan) was the brother of one of my family's closest friends in Australia (a man I always knew as "Uncle Bob".) In all honesty there would be no wars if the world consisted of people of this wonderful man's big heartedness. When we came to W.A. my parents didn't know anyone here and he and his lovely, jovial Irish wife, Julia (who had herself been brought up in a Catholic run Irish orphanage) befriended us all and were "family" from the word go.

I don't recall my Canadian born, but British raised, Uncle Bob mentioning much about his brother who was lost (along with many others) when H.M.S. Repulse was sunk by the Japanese. (I should imagine it hurt too much.)
However, my Mum reckons the family (especially Charles' parents) always felt a resentment that these men, whom they had loved and raised to be such good citizens, and who literally gave their all for their country, seemed to be valued so little by the authorities of the day. I know you can't put a price on life....but that was what the authorities felt the sum total of this man's (and I guess all the other men like him), existence was worth. Doesn't seem much, does it?

See what you think:

66892

66893 Sorry this "Seamen's Wills" document is in two parts....but it was too big to scan altogether.

66894

66895 This attachment is taken from the Commonwealth War Graves Commission site. I have combined 2 pages, for ease of viewing.

Regards,
Bee
p.s. The first picture is of my late Dad visiting the memorial to those lost at sea. Bob's brother (Charles Edward Conlan) is mentioned on Panel 50, Column 2. (At least they have a memorial where family and friends can pay their respects.)

John Odom

21-01-2010, 20:38

The links don't seem to work, at least not for me.

harry.gibbon

21-01-2010, 20:56

Likewise; the links/attachments are not working for me either!

Little h

Guz rating

22-01-2010, 00:34

I would like to start by wishing Corrine a very speedy recovery. Bill I remember reading about Christmas Eve at the front, The Germans started singing carols in German and the British troops sang the the same carol in English. Some of the German soldiers had made Christmas trees and decorated them with candles, and placed them were the British soldiers could see them. They both came out of their trenches and exchanged their Christmas rations, and saw each other as humans, and not beasts, the next day they became beasts again.

Alan

Bee

22-01-2010, 05:01

Sorry that the attachments above, at post #190 didn't work, but thanks John and Little h for letting me know. (They seemed to work when I first put them on, and that took me ages, as this computer kept "crashing" but obviously the "Computer said NO")...Anyway, I'll repeat it here...in a few posts and see if I have any success with it.....

As a bit of background.... the young sailor mentioned (Charles Edward Conlan) was the brother of one of my family's closest friends in Australia (a man I always knew as "Uncle Bob".) In all honesty there would be no wars if the world consisted of people of this wonderful man's big heartedness. When we came to W.A. my parents didn't know anyone here and he and his lovely, jovial Irish wife, Julia (who had herself been brought up in a Catholic run Irish orphanage) befriended us all and were "family" from the word go.

I don't recall my Canadian born, but British raised, Uncle Bob mentioning much about his brother who was lost (along with many others) when H.M.S. Repulse was sunk by the Japanese. (I should imagine it hurt too much.)
However, my Mum reckons the family (especially Charles' parents) always felt a resentment that these men, whom they had loved and raised to be such good citizens, and who literally gave their all for their country, seemed to be valued so little by the authorities of the day. I know you can't put a price on life....but that was what the authorities felt the sum total of this man's (and I guess all the other men like him), existence was worth. Doesn't seem much, does it?

See what you think:

Here's a copy of the "Seaman's Will" that was recieved by Charles Edward Conlan's parents, scanned in two parts.

66921

66922

Regards,
Bee

I don't think the term "Prize" money was very well thought out.

Bee

22-01-2010, 05:22

Here's the picture of the Plymouth Hoe War Memorial, for Sailors lost at sea.
My parents went there in 1991 to seek out Bob's brother's name and pay their respects to all the men, young and old, who's lives had been lost.
As I mentioned earlier, Charles Edward Conlan's name is inscribed on Panel 50, Column 2.

66923

Regards,
Bee

Bee

22-01-2010, 06:08

The last attachment I was going to post here....turned out to be too large and started freaking this computer out again.
If any of you wish to view the Plymouth Hoe Memorial for Sailors lost at Sea...just go to the Commonwealth War Graves Commission site and you should be able to view it there. You should also be able to look up any others who may have been lost at sea and get copies of their service details.

Regards,
Bee
p.s. I too wish you a speedy and full recovery, Corrine.

Guz rating

22-01-2010, 06:15

Hi Bee,

A very sad story I wonder if it had a more sensitive covering letter, I can imagine their pain on receiving something like that. Pusser can be like that no sentiment were money was concerned......The picture of the man on the Hoe is that your Dad, I can understand why he would need to sit down, it's along hike up hill to the monument. Your Dad must have been a Guzz rating.

Regards

Alan

Bee

23-01-2010, 13:19

Hi Alan,
I hope that there was some kind of letter with it too. However I just recall that there was something about the way that it was handled that didn't sit well with the family. Unfortunately Mum can't remember either....but as I mentioned earlier, my Uncle Bob didn't speak much about it. I think my Dad was honoured that he (Bob) entrusted the document to him, as he had also been a WWII Naval Sparks (although mostly on MGBs and MLs...as you know.)

With regard to the picture of the memorial...yes, that is my Dad sitting in the foreground. He was nearly 70 at the time, and as I've been looking through some of their (Mum and Dad's) old photos, I would say that they must have visited quite a few different memorials in the various countries they travelled to. It was just something that Dad felt he had to do. (Unfortunately they never got to revisit Greece though.)

Regards,
Bee

SBA

26-01-2010, 11:39

Hi All,

I'd like to name a few more recent events.

HMS Broadsword, This one upset me as I was at sea on Nottingham when the news came through. Two fatalities.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/two-killed-in-frigate-fire-1483701.html

The Lynx from HMS Richmond, as I had only gone on draft from Richmond to join Newcastle a month or two before the Lynx stoofed into the sea (as had the Pilot who was LT MM) His replacement and his co-pilot were both killed.. I'd been lowered from that Lynx many times.

Bee

08-02-2010, 08:41

Sorry to cut across your post SBA,

....but in addition to my posts about R.N. Telegraphist, Charles Edward Conlan's loss (along with all the rest who lost their lives from when HMS Repulse was bombed by the Japanese)...there is another mention of this in the "Crew Losses" thread, post #112, which has been started by qprdave and will, hopefully be continued by him, for the benefit of future researchers.) Thus far qprdave's been doing a great job in this regard. :)

The post below is part of what qprdave posted along with a newspaper cutting...with the total crew list, (which anyone researching this might like to check out.)

HMS Repulse
Battlecruiser
Renown Class
10th Dec 1941. Late 1941, she was sent to the Far East, accompanying the new battleship HMS Prince of Wales. The two ships arrived at Singapore just before Japan began the Pacific War. As soon as hostilities commenced, both steamed northwards to intercept a reported invasion force. While returning to Singapore on 10 December 1941, Repulse and Prince of Wales were attacked by Japanese high-level bombers and torpedo planes. Repulse (Capt. Sir William George Tennant, CB, RN) was moderately damaged by bombs early in the action and was later hit by several torpedoes. After receiving this heavy underwater damage, she sank rapidly in position 03º34'N, 104º26'E, followed less than an hour later by the Prince of Wales.

Regards,

Bee

p.s. SBA, with regard to your post, you're quite right about there not being much mention of the incident that took the lives of Leading Marine Engineering Mechanic Mark Adrian Hunt and Marine Engineering Mechanic Roy Francis Ware....so we'll respectfully remember them here as well, along with all the other sailors who have crossed the bar.

steve roberts

08-02-2010, 10:41

Hear Hear Bee. There are so many casualties that slip through the net,usually from what are called minor incidents! They wern't minor to those who lost their lives. Regards Steve. PS congrats on thick stripe!!:o

Gypsyvannergirl

08-02-2010, 13:07

I just finished reading the book "In Harm's Way" about the sinking of the USS Indianapolis and the government's pathetic attempts to cover up all of the blunders by those who received her SOS calls and did nothing; those who knew she was late and did nothing; and those who spent months and years afterwards passing the buck so that the 'blame' fell squarely on the shoulders of the one person it shouldn't have - Captain McVay.:mad:

This book was so tastefully written - considering the horrible situation these men found themselves in - it focused on the courage of the men who tried everything they could to keep their shipmates alive instead of the horrible events happening around them with the shark attacks and the deteriorating condition of the minds of the men in the water.

In my opinion, this disaster ranks way up there with the worst and it took an eleven year old boy to get the ball rolling to clear Captain McVay's name - even though Captain McVay was no longer around to see the tremendous amount of support he had. It sure opened my eyes.

Gypsyvannergirl

Bee

08-02-2010, 15:26

Sounds like a book well worth reading. Thanks Corinne.
Regards,
Bee

INVINCIBLE

08-02-2010, 17:41

Steve,

What is the difference between a "Commodore" and a "Vice Commodore"? any relationship to "Commodores first" and "second" class, which used to be ranks in the Royal Navy?

Old Salt

08-04-2010, 09:52

All of the naval disasters in this thread have touched me over the years as I have learned about them.

Hopefully members will understand that the disaster which touched me the most was the collision between HMAS Melbourne and USS Evans in the Coral Sea on 3 June 1969. I was OOW in HMNZS Blackpool at the time and ordered max. speed to close and rescue survivors. We were only 2000 yards away but before we could close that small distance the bow section of USS Evans had disappeared, taking 74 men to an instant watery grave.

I have vivid memories of that night over 40 years ago, and the subsequent court of inquiry and court martials I was obliged to attend. I have collected quite some material about that incident ........ a tale to post at a later time.

Don Boyer

09-04-2010, 02:01

Gypsyvannergirl

09-04-2010, 17:26

Old Salt

11-04-2010, 09:20

Wow Brian

That certainly is a sobering post. When and if you feel up to it please share some of your information with us. Not everyone can understand what you went through, but we certainly can give you support and encouragement.

And perhaps of equal importance not let those men who died ever be forgotten.

GVG

Thanks for that, I most certainly will, I have so much data to collate first.
Rest assured the lost are not fogotten. Fourty years on I am still in touch with the Evans Survivors Association in USA who are still very active trying get the names of their lost shipmates inscribed on the Vietnam Wall of Honour in Washington.

USS Evans was in service in Vietnamese waters when she was sent down to Manila to take part in inernational exercises. During these Evans was sunk.
The hierachy have refused consistently to allow the names of the lost to be added to the Vietnam Wall because they were not lost in action. I am still supporting the Association over this and was invited to the 40th. commemoration services 3 June 2009.

Their memory lives on.

Gypsyvannergirl

11-04-2010, 15:55

Government bull**** disguised as bureaucracy.

That's as bad as saying a police officer who loses his life can only be added to their memorial if he was wearing his uniform at the time of death.

In both cases it is the ultimate betrayal of the career chosen and the bravery and dedication of the person/persons who died.

I hope you eventually achieve what these men rightfully deserve - a true remembrance of the ultimate sacrifice they made.

GVG

INVINCIBLE

11-04-2010, 16:16

INVINCIBLE

11-04-2010, 16:36

Invincible:

We're slightly off thread, but I'm with you...what the heck is a Vice Commodore? Commodore is the only rank I've seen used in past in RN and USN. Seems out of place, and out of touch with real naval rankings in all our represented services as far as I know. The US navy has dumped Commodore entirely and gone with Rear Admiral, lower half (one star) and Rear Admiral upper half (two stars) which is silly in my view, but then I was a second class gunner's mate...what do I know?

Moderators?? What say ye?

Personally, I think our "ranks," honorary though they be, ought to follow the current RN system to the letter. It's more "Navy" and ship shape and Bristol style as far as I'm concerned. If we're going to reward serious posting on the issues and have rankings indicating our dedication to the cause so to speak, we ought to be straight out with it. Commodore, then Rear Admiral and on up to Admiral (recognizing that for Fleet Admiral "...there can only be one!" :)

Thanks Don - you are right.
We have plenty of 'Vice Commodores' in the yacht clubs around here but no RN 'Vice' or ex 'Vice Commodores'. Commodore is an interesting rank. For quite a time we did have Commodores 1st and 2nd class. Then just commodores and then before I joined the RN the commodore no longer existed as a permanent rank and instead we had 'Captains' and 'Captains (over six)' who ranked with, and were paid the same as Brigadiers. It meant that all captains retired with a Brigadier's pension. Then more recently, the permanent rank of Commodore was reintroduced.
To be absolutely correct we should have a rank progression of 'Commodore 2nd Class', followed by 'Commodore 1st Class' followed by 'Rear-Admiral' - but hey who wants to make waves!

Andy H

22-04-2010, 21:42

Well like many here, the loss of HMS Barham had the most profound effect on me. The fact that many men had survived and reached the upturned hull and can be seen scrambling around, only then to be blown to pieces in front of your eyes, is a sobering & humbling sight.

Regards

Andy H

Gypsyvannergirl

22-04-2010, 22:40

I have a pretty long post and I apologize ahead of time, but this incident has bothered me for years, ever since I watched a documentary where they used various large blast sites (including the Halifax disaster) to try to figure out the best place to put the most explosives to do the maximum damage (especially loss of life). After watching that, I thought I was going to be sick.

This incident does fit in with World War II, so I'm not going out of the boundaries of this Forum.

The incident in question is the Port Chicago disaster and its aftermath.

Construction at Port Chicago began in 1942 and by 1944 the pier could support the loading of two ships simultaneously. African-American navy personnel were assigned the dangerous work of loading munitions onto the ships. The article I was reading said that neither the officers or the men had received training in loading munitions. Loading boats was a 24 hour a day process and friendly rivalries developed to see who could load the biggest load.

On the evening of July 17, 1944, the empty merchant ship SS Quinault Victory was being loaded for her maiden voyage. The SS E. A. Bryan had just returned from her first voyage and was loading across the platform from the Quinault Victory.

The holds were packed with high explosive and incendiary bombs, depth charges and ammunition - 4,606 tons of ammunition in all. There were sixteen rail cars on the pier with another 429 tons.

Working in the area were 320 cargo handlers, crewmen and sailors.

At 10:18, the sound of splintering wood erupted from the pier, followed by an explosion that ripped apart the night sky. Within six seconds, a deeper explosion erupted as the contents of the E. A. Bryan detonated in one massive explosion, that completely disintegrated the structures around the pier.

A pillar of fire and smoke stretched over two miles into the sky above Port Chicago. The largest remaining pieces of the 7,200 ton ship were the size of a suitcase. A plane flying at 9,000 feet reported seeing chunks of white hot metal 'as big as a house' flying past.

The shattered Quinault Victory was spun into the air. Witnesses reported seeing a 200-foot column on which rode the bow of the ship, its mast still attached, crashed back into the bay 500 feet away.

All 320 men on duty that night were killed instantly. The blast smashed buildings and rail cars near the pier and damaged every building in Port Chicago. The blast caused damage 48 miles away across the Bay in San Francisco.

Men risked their lives to put out fires that threatened nearby munitions cars. In addition to those killed, there were 390 wounded.

Less han a month later, Port Chicago was again moving munitions to the troops in the Pacific because they were absolutely vital to the troops in the Pacific.

And yet they were largely forgotten. Of the 320 men killed in the explosion, the vast majority (202) were African American enlisted men who were assigned the dangerous duty of loading the ships.

The explosion at Port Chicago accounted for fifteen percent of all African-American casualties of World War II.

The explosion had shaken all of the men, but especially those surviving men who worked on the pier. On August 9, less than one month after the explosion, the surviving men, who had experienced the horror, were to begin loading munitions, this time at Mare Island. They told their officers that they would obey any other order, but not that one.

Of the 328 men of the ordnance battalion, 258 African-American sailors refused to load ammunition. In the end, 208 faced summary courts-martial and were sentenced to bad conduct discharges and the forfeit of three month's pay for disobeying orders. The remaining 50 were singled out for general courts martial on the grounds of mutiny. (Ours not to reason why, ours but to do or die.)

The sentence could have been death, but they received between eight and fifteen years at hard labor after a trial which a 1994 review had strong racial overtones.

Soon after the war, in January 1946, the men were given clemency and on December 23, 1999, President Bill Clinton pardoned Freddie Meeks of Los Angeles, one of the few still living membrs of the original 50.

My question is what happened to the other 49 and is there even a memorial of names for those who were lost?

Sorry for the long post, but this situation just floors me.

GVG

Don Boyer

23-04-2010, 03:44

GVG:

It gets worse when you research the causes, which included the total indifference of seniors to proper procedures, safety, the like, which was no doubt largely due to the fact that those closest to the explosives were considered second-class citizens to say the least.

Lack of safety training, or any of that, improper handling equipment, unsafe storage and transport.

I spent my military career handling moving and using ordnance, with the safety standards of the 1960s to go on, and I would have run screaming from a place run like Port Chicago was.

The trial and imprisonment of the remaining personnel who refused to work their after that event was the typical racist response of the day, and of course was perfectly suited to also keep the attention of the public and newspapers completely diverted from the actions of all management, working practices, safety and training in place at the time of the disaster.

A sickening series of events that cast a pall on the military of the day, as well as the civilian contractors and others involved. If nothing else, historically it demonstrates the side of human behavior that is to be avoided at all costs.

The explosion was absolutely tragic, compounded by the great miscarriage of justice that followed.

Seagull

23-04-2010, 07:56

Hello all.

Just spent and hour reading this thread. Need steel nerves to absorb stories of human sacrifice and how this is passed on and how we member them and how they affect us.

Anyone willing to post on the 'Epitaphs and Memorials' thread?
Thanks
Seagull

Gypsyvannergirl

26-04-2010, 19:31

Hubby and I were watching a documentary on TV. I don't really know which one it was because I was reading and only occasionally looking up at the TV. That, however, changed in an instant when the program focused on the seemingly never-ending attacks on the aircraft carrier USS Franklin.

I was absolutely horrified. The attacks seemed to go on forever and each explosion was worse than the one before it. I haven't had time to look up info on the USS Franklin, so I don't know how many died.

But I know from what I watched that it was bad and the casualty numbers had to be high. Definitely a naval disaster that touched my heart.

GVG

BALTICSUBS

27-04-2010, 08:31

Re: Naval Disasters that have touched you the most ,

Rather than a particular incident, the actual events that touch me the most is when a submarine never returns to base. In most cases a ship sinks and with the majority, we know where and why. With submariners they quite often have fallen like the proverbial tree unheard in the forest. I find it particularly sad these men are still on eternal patrol, and maybe forever. I had committed myself for the past 5 years in doing something about one of them, and to come up successful is truly fulfilling for her lost crew and most importantly our families. We can only hope the disappearances of all submarines will finally be solved with time.

It is now also time to find HMAS AE1.

steve roberts

27-04-2010, 09:31

Hi Balticsubs. Like you (Me being an ex-submariner) Submarine disapearances always touch my heart strings.Some times we are lucky and a boat sinks in water shallow enough for recovery,and the cause of the sinking may be found and bring closure to the families of the men.Unfortunately in most cases it is in deep water and not salvageable.With modern technology the wreck may be found but not recoverable.Thats when the mystery drags on for years.
I have just finished reading a very good book about one such sinking,the USS SCORPION.For years I believed it was an internal problem that sunk her,but now my thoughts have changed.This book "Scorpion Down" by Ed Offley.His chance decision to do a 15 year post disaster interview with a Retired Admiral about the sinking,started him of on a trail which led to a surprisingly believable conclusion.The soviet sub K129(Hotel11 Class) had been lost in deep water off Hawaii,she had exploded and gone down in deep water.The American efforts to retrieve part of this sub (Project Jennifer) led the soviets to believe she had been deliberately sunk by the US Navy.SCORPION,on a classified surveillance mission on her way home,was sunk deliberately by the Russians.Hard to believe but fascinating in its study and research.Including talking to an ex-SOSUS operator who states during his training he was shown a tape of this event occurring.I have listened to a tape of the USS THRESHER sinking,so I believe what the guy said!
As for AE1,she must be in shallow water,it is strange that the Government is not involved in the search for her,and it is left up to people like yourself and your friends to search and attempt her recovery.
Then her and her crew,like so many others will not be on "Eternal Patrol".
Regards Steve.

BALTICSUBS

27-04-2010, 12:06

Hi Steve,

the problem with AE1 is the water is extremely deep, if she was in shallow water she would be known to the locals as a good fishing spot as it would be reasonably close to shore. I have recently completed a massive time line of events covering the day before and after her loss, and have come up with an alternative solution to her loss. Need to polish it, then present it, but the theory has few holes in it as opposed to other theories. I believe they have not found her as they have not looked in the correct area, my theory and area has never been looked at.

Many people believe her wreck lies close to Rabaul, but i think people have not done their homework on the guard ships that were set up to challenge anyone entering, of which no one saw a thing. One thing to remember with her, when last sighted she was in a safe situation in regards to distance from shore, something was done to create a dangerous situation after this, something led her commander to behave in a way in which he seemed to chasing something and stray way off his designated patrol zone, and I have an idea now what it was.

You are right though, these type of losses touch me the most, AE1 was the tree that fell in the forest that no-one heard, those boys deserve more. The government has been burnt and on last the search they lost an expensive side scan sonar. The only what she will be found is time and money, that is leaving a vessel up there until she is found.

steve roberts

27-04-2010, 12:32

Hi BALTICSUBS. Thanks for that reply.Good luck in your research and future hunting.As you say,those boys need to be brought home.
Many Regards Steve.

Gypsyvannergirl

27-04-2010, 16:10

Let's not forget the Israeli Sub Dakar lost with all hands off the coast of Libya. Or the Kursk which was lost because the Russian president refused international help. Or the HMS Thetis which is still controversial even to this day. Also the USS Squalus who sank with some loss of life, but thanks to the efforts of a lot of good men, including Swede Momsen, the sub was brought back to the surface after the remaining crew members were rescued.

Not many people know (I'm sure you do Steve, being an ex-submariner) that Swede Momsen's motivation was because of the sinking of the sub S-4. On December 17, 1927 the Coast Guard vessel USS Paulding (DD-22) collided with the submarine S-4 as she was surfacing. The S-4 sank with all hands. Heroic efforts were made to rescue six known survivors who were trapped in the forward torpedo room and who had managed to exchange a series of signals with divers by tapping on the hull. Sadly, the technology was not there at that time to save them, but this disaster was the one that affected Swede Momsen so badly that he started an almost fanatical project to create a way to reach trapped submariners. Although an official inquiry absolved the Coast Guard of any blame, Swede Momsen took it seriously and vowed to do everything he could to create a way of rescuing crews from subs that had gone down.

GVG

Gypsyvannergirl

27-04-2010, 23:11

Okay

I have posted a comment about the USS Franklin and been ignored.

I have posted a thread about the collision between the USS Paulding and submarine S-4 and Swede Momsen's desperate attempt to prevent another submarine sinking with all hands lost and likewise been ignored.

I posted a comment on Hampton Roads in which I mentioned that the ironclad Virginia who used to be the union ship Merrimack before she was burned to the waterline and converted to the Confederate ironclad CSS Virginia and got verbally lambasted.

I don't have time for this. I am taking a course on Social Psychology, Legal Assistant and Police Foundations Security and Protection and I am exhausted. I don't know where my daughter is and am living in constant fear for her safety. I thought I had a family on here, but obviously I don't.

That's it for me. To all the sailors who died in the line of duty I am sorry. But I'm not going to go on feeling like I am just a worthless piece of garbage.

Or worse, a woman who has no business treading in a man's territory.

GVG

John Odom

27-04-2010, 23:41

No harm intended, Corrine. Many of my posts are "ignored." I just haven't had time to look up the Franklin incident and the Port Chicago post was answered. Your posts ARE valued.

astraltrader

28-04-2010, 00:53

Corrine - John is quite right - all of us suffer from time to time with a lack of response to our contributions. I do know how frustrating that can be!

You also know how much you are valued here - you just need only take a look at the number of concerned members when you were last absent from the forum. :)

Don Boyer

28-04-2010, 03:06

GVG:

Just back from a tour of hospital, so I had missed your Franklin post. I believe that 726 men were killed aboard Franklin (CV-13) and of course several hundred others wounded. Franklin was hit by two bombs while she had a hanger bay and flight deck full of armed and gassed aircraft, absolutely the worst possible time to be hit, as the Japanese carriers at Midway discovered.

Franklin survived due to the outstanding firefighting skills of the crew. Basically, the hanger bay and flight deck were allowed to just burn out, and the fire was kept from getting below the hanger bay where killing damage could have been done (into the magazines or fuel bunkers). The firefight was so serious the ship's Chaplain earned a Medal of Honor. However, after the fact, there were many who thought the ship's Captain should have just ordered abandon ship and gotten the crew off, let the ship be scuttled. Fewer would have died as a result. There were four or five new Essex class carriers on the way, and the loss of one would not have been anything but a press sensation for a time.

Ship Captains don't see things that way for the most part, so Franklin survived, and returned to New York under her own power, the most damaged aircraft carrier to survive, and I believe the second largest loss of life on any US Navy ship in actual combat (Arizona holds the record in that respect, and Indianapolis' losses may have been greater than Franklin--don't have my references handy).

Franklin was stripped down to the hanger bay deck and completely rebuilt, put in reserve after the war and never used again. She finally went to the scrapyard. I think the hull number 13 may have played a part in not re-activating her. She and Bunker Hill (the second most damaged carrier) were both never reactivated after the war.

steve roberts

28-04-2010, 10:01

Hi Corrine.Please do not think your posts are ever ignored,they are are not! I did not reply to your posting on the S4 collision,as you pointed out I would already know of this incident.I am not a big American Aircraft carrier buff,I knew of the Franklin attack,but felt it more appropriate for our forum colleges on the American side to reply to that one.As to your post on the Battle of Hampton roads.I don't think anybody "Lambasted you on purpose,you just started off a discussion on peoples different opinions.Which is what the forum is all about.I know how it feels to have posts not acknowledged or replied too.I have several threads running which get virtually no response at all,but looking at the reading numbers lets me know that people do look at them and sometimes feel that there is no need to say anything about them.
I know you have a lot of personal problems at the moment.But PLEASE do not feel your membership of this forum is not valued.IT IS!!.
Regards Steve.

John Odom

28-04-2010, 21:29

I looked up the USS Franklin, and my memory was jogged. A heroic effort to save the ship, and a terrible loss of life.

Many lives would have been saved if the ship had been abandoned. A hard call for any commander.

Gypsyvannergirl

29-04-2010, 10:29

The program my hubby was watching was Battle 360 about the Big 'E". From ten miles away the crew of the Enterprise watched the USS Franklin get hit over and over again. Over 700 men lost their lives.

But they managed to get her engines going and as badly damaged as she was she sailed into port with only the few members left of her crew standing at attention. I'm not ashamed to say I shed a few tears.

I know it's their culture but to me Kamikaze pilots are cowards.

GVG

BALTICSUBS

02-05-2010, 02:46

The Big E, an absoulte shame that ship was not saved as, minus a couple of battles, she was the history of the USN during the Pacific war.

Don Boyer

02-05-2010, 04:21

Actually, Franklin was only hit by two bombs from the same aircraft. The continual explosions within the big fires that broke out immediately were from ordnance hung on aircraft and by the large new variety of rocket carried by some of the aircraft which ignited, flew about and blew up (5" Tiny Tims, if I remember correctly). The photos of Franklin returning to New York show enormous holes blown in the flight deck by aircraft bombs that blew up. You can't even tell where the original bombs hit the ship.

She was the most severely damaged aircraft carrier of the war to survive her ordeal. Lexington, Wasp and Hornet all took much more damage overall and all were lost. There crew losses were less, however because they were abandoned fairly quickly. Franklin's crew fought it out -- although anyone in the hanger bay was done for anyway, which resulted in terrible casualties right off.

That Battle 360 production on the Enterprise was not too bad a piece of work. I was actually shocked that it was so accurate and had a compelling story to tell. Television is usually such overwrought crap these days in an attempt to sensationalize everything that I usually cringe when a new "war story" comes out. For those who would like an absolutely outstanding read, "The Big E" by Edward P. Stafford is absolutely one of the true classics of naval literature. You see the Pacific War through the "eyes" of the Enterprise herself, and since she was in every battle but one, it's a great historical read. The men who served aboard her were some of the true heroes of the war too.

Gypsyvannergirl

02-05-2010, 07:59

Thank you Don for your update on that.

When the Franklin was coming back to dock, you could see the damage and I seem to remember the announcer saying that the explosions were mostly caused by her planes.

I'm going to look for that book. My hubby loves the "Big E" and he was horrified that they scrapped her instead of turning her into a museum.:mad:

Programs like Battle 360 are where it's at if you want to really know what happened. None of that smoochy romance garbage that ruined the movies Titanic and Pearl Harbor.

Peace to all
GVG

Don Boyer

02-05-2010, 18:46

GVG:

You can find copies of The Big E on line, of course. ABE books has dozens. The US Naval Institute "Classics of Naval Literature" edition is the best, as it has all the original photographs that many paperbacks do not. However, buy it used, the USNI Press is toooo expensive in my book, and I get a member's discount!

And I LIKE smoochy romance! :p For Titanic it was OK, Titanic was an ocean liner, and romance is to be expected. For "Pearl Harbor" it stunk, but then the whole movie was tripe. I was with many Pearl Harbor survivors aboard the carrier Stennis in Pearl Harbor when the movie premiered, and they were of the universal opinion that it sucked overall. I can agree with the opinion of experts! :)

Gypsyvannergirl

02-05-2010, 22:06

The only part of the movie that I liked (and given the subject that's not a good choice of words) is when the first planes came over the island and started dropping torpedoes in the water.

You could see those sailors who were up were doing their everyday routines. Alot of them were putting work into ships that would not be there for much longer - cleaning the decks, preparing food (USS Arizona), and those two sailors who were doing something to the side of the ship when the first torpedo hit. There was no reaction from them indicating that they had any idea what was going on.

From there it was complete bedlam. Young men not knowing what to do or what was going on; sailors drowing and burning in oil; and that one poor Captain, still trying to tell his crew what to do even though he was dying because he had been hit by a piece of another ship and his stomach was cut open.

There were no cowards in the US Navy that day - only the Japanese who talked big about honor and had no idea what it meant.

That's what the movie did bring home - the quick change from peace to war and the desperate fight from a navy that was not even aware that an attack was coming.

Someone failed them - but we sure won't

GVG

Don Boyer

03-05-2010, 02:41

The Commanding Officer of the West Virginia was Captain Mervyn Sharp Bennion. He was ripped open by a piece of metal from the USS Tennessee's while on the bridge of his ship and died later in the day. He received the Medal of Honor posthumously and a Fletcher-class destroyer was named for him in 1943.

While working at the USS Arizona memorial in 2001, I met Mr. Dick Fiske, former Marine bugler from the West Virginia. He witnessed the tragedy and tried to help Captain Bennion until he was carried off the bridge. Later, Dick spent many days on guard duty on Ford Island near all the sunken ships. He could hear the tapping coming from the West Virgina from some of the 67 men trapped below decks who could not be reached or saved. Many months later, when the West Virgina was refloated, these men were found. The calender on the bulkhead had check-marks up to December 23rd. They had survived that long on trapped air and canned food.

qprdave

03-05-2010, 03:02

I am not sure that saying that there was no "honour" amongst the Japanese pilots and the crews of the Carrier Task Force is a fair statement. In my opinion They were doing something for their Emperor and their country. Did the crew and pilots know that the declaration of war hadn't been delivered? I doubt it. I think that it is very hard for us, ordinary westerners, to comprehend the culture and honour that has grown in Japan for hundreds of years.

Having said that it was a despicable act and most certainly a crime against humanity but, I believe the blame was in Japan and, perhaps, The Japanese Embassy in Washington. and not with the Carrier Task Force

I have heard two theories

1) The British had broken the Japanese codes and warned the United States and they disbelieved it.

2) The British did know about it but refrained to inform the US as they were so desperate to get the United States into the war. Desperate times calls for desperate measures!

Perhaps Don could shed some light on it

Dave

Don Boyer

03-05-2010, 04:00

GVG and Dave:

While 99.999999 percent of the "revisionist history" line regarding Pearl Harbor has been shot down ("Roosevelt knew the attack was coming," etc.) I understand that there are intelligence documents still held as classified in Britain that may indeed shed some light on on "who knew what and when" regarding Pearl Harbor. I would have to search through a mess of books to find the reference to that, but I would bet it is in one of the Gordon Prange's books on Pearl Harbor, since they are pretty comprehensive.

Given that the British and some Commonwealth nations may well have made excellent penetration of the JN-25 Japanese code just prior to Pearl Harbor still does not mean much, as not one single message regarding the actions of the Japanese carrier Task Force (kido butai) was sent in JN-25 OR the "Purple" code used for diplomatic messages. Kido Butai did NOT send any radio messages of any kind during their transit from Paramushiro to Pearl Harbor, so no one could have gotten a "fix" on the Task Force that way. Very few even within Japan knew of the planned attack on Pearl Harbor. It was truly a well-kept secret as Midway would not be.

Winston Churchill could be a putz, like any great man, but he DID NOT have the venal nature that would have withheld vital knowledge from the United State just to ensure the entry of the Americans into the war. To me, those kind of assertions are a slur on the reputation of a truly great man. It was quite obvious from the intelligence on the movements of Japanese forces toward Malaya and other areas just prior to Pearl Harbor that the Japanese were making their move. Those moves would no doubt include the Philippines, which flanked everything the Japanese wanted to do in the southern areas and could not be overlooked except at great risk. Even if the planned Japanese attacks did not immediately involve the Philippines, America would have no doubt been dragged into the conflict one way or another -- the Japanese would attack anything that moved in their area of interest. To suggest that Winston would have deliberately withheld intelligence like that is no different than saying Roosevelt and his advisers engaged in high treason.

As to the "honor" of the Japanese of the attacking force, they were not aware of any of the political maneuvering that was going on. The intent was for the Japanese Embassy in Washington D.C. to present their "note" to the United States, breaking off the current diplomatic negotiations following which the kido butai would attack Pearl Harbor. Unfortunately, the Japanese translators in Washington weren't as good as the code-breakers and the message was delivered almost an hour after the Pearl Harbor attack had begun (the US had all 14 parts of the message well before the Japanese did). And remember, the Japanese ambassadors in Washington had NO direct knowledge that war was to begin (other than the broad hint made when they were instructed to destroy all but one code machine) and NO KNOWLEDGE AT ALL of the Pearl Harbor attack. In other words, the Imperial Army and Navy screwed their own diplomats by not telling them they planned to start a war. Good way to keep your plans a secret, to be sure.

Also, one must consider that the "note" breaking off diplomatic discussions is NOT necessarily a direct declaration of war, a fact little noted in the Pearl Harbor literature. Even had the note been delivered on time, it would not necessarily have been interpreted as an immediate declaration of war. The intent on the part of the Japanese was to make a "surprise" attack, not a "sneak" attack, but the semantics become irrelevant in light of what actually did happen. Even if things had happened as they planned, I doubt the semantics would have mattered. To the US it was a sneak attack with no declaration of war. Something the Japanese had done at least three times in the past. We should have expected such. However, no one believed the Japanese had the capability to hit Pearl Harbor even if they did have the equipment to do so. Bad judgments abounded in the US military in that regard. With all the movement by Japanese forces to the south, most were mesmerized by that action, assuming action would come in the Philippines if anywhere on American territory.

Admiral Yamamoto, for one, was outraged by the turn of events that made his attack a "sneak" attack; he knew the rage that would result, and he would reap the results of that rage in April of 1943. As to the airmen and sailors who attacked Pearl, they served with honor, doing what they had been ordered to do. Some would later be involved in war atrocities, but that is a different issue at a different time. Among the Pearl Harbor survivors I've talked to there is seldom any consideration of dishonor directed at the pilots and others who actually made the attack. It was not their fault that the timing of events worked as they did.

If any dishonor accrues, it is to the Imperial Japanese Army and their lackeys, the Imperial Navy, for involving Japan in a war in China to start with and then in a Pacific War. They almost destroyed their own nation under the guise of creating an Oriental Empire with Japan at the helm.

qprdave

03-05-2010, 04:13

Thanks Don for that very informative post. I guess that the secret documents that you refer to, held by the British, would be under the 100yr Rule and then, as we have seen in the past, some of the vital and damaging documents might still be retained and never released. I have a feeling that if there are any damaging documents that backs up the allegations of Winston's part, they will never be released. Especially as long as the United States remains one of Britain's closest allies.

Dave

qprdave

03-05-2010, 04:30

One point that you made re the 14 page signal. Even at that late stage, if the US realised what was going on and made an educated guess that Pearl Harbour was the target. Would it have made much difference in the outcome?

If the Battleships had been ordered to sea, surely they would still be in real danger. (Prince of Wales and Repulse comes to mind). Unless the US Carriers could have been contacted and acted. I am assuming that the US Carriers were fully armed and planed.

Dave

Don Boyer

03-05-2010, 07:03

HI, Dave and all:

Had we anticipated the attack, and deployed the fleet, I doubt if they would have done what was really called for, which was run to the south and preserve the fleet. That would not have appeared very "agressive" and navy-like to anyone and would have been considered "running scared" which is exactly what it would have been. Admiral Kimmel was not the type to do that, either. The fact that it might be the best thing to do would not impress anyone. Had the battleships gone seeking the kido butai, they would not have had any effect on the carrier force, which could easily avoid the battle fleet while throwing airplanes at it all day while the submarines closed in. The battleships would most likely have been sunk in deep water with even larger casualties. One of the results of that would be to have lost the most effective shore bombardment platforms we had.

Then you also have the issue of an empty Pearl Harbor if the ships had run to the south or into battle. Pearl might have been thoroughly destroyed, probably including the oil stocks, submarine base and repair facilities.

The "what if's" are endless, and often feature in alternative histories, a genre I dislike, and try not to get into because they are often so politicized. I do feel that any alternative scenario would NOT have involved a later Japanese invasion and occupation of Hawaii. They did not have the resources to carry that off and sustain it over time, not and still reap the rewards of their southern conquests. Japan had already spread itself to the breaking point just taking the territory they did in southern Asia/Indonesia.

As for the carriers, only Enterprise and Lexington were even close to the scene. Fully operational and armed, but totally inexperienced and facing six very competent and highly trained enemy carriers, I doubt they would have survived long, particularly as they could not operate together.

Strangely enough, through all the death and destruction of Pearl Harbor, the huge number of casualties, the overwrought investigations trying to assign "blame" for the surprise attack (on the wrong people, of course) and the tons of writing done about the incident, in the end the United States lost two major ships, Arizona and Oklahoma. Both old battleships, not to be insensitive to the deaths involved, were replaced immediately by new far more powerful battleships. The operating base was not put out of operation even for a month, and the end result of the attack had very little real material effect on the war. Consider that four of the six carriers that attacked Pearl Harbor were themselves destroyed six months later by a far inferior fleet. Without the full force of the kido butai available, the Imperial navy could not defend the perimeter of the territory they captured and were crushed within four years.

Pearl Harbor did thoroughly enrage the United States, and it did provide the motivation and backbone for the "unconditional surrender" idea. That was not what the Japanese intended, by any means. Pearl Harbor's legacy of unpreparedness speaks for itself.

steve roberts

06-05-2010, 20:40

Here is a more detailed account of a submarine sinking that I had known about,but had never seen any details of.
In March 1989,a Russian submarine KOMSOMOLETS K278,known to NATO as MIKE Class,left her home port of Polyarni near the Kola Inlet,to observe and obtain as much information as possible about a large NATO exercise called NORTHERN WEDDING.This task was only partially successful due to the number of ASW ships and aircraft taking part in the exercise.She turned for home and was uneventfully cruising at a depth of 1,100 feet,to avoid the sever weather conditions on the surface.At 1103 on the morning of April 7th 1989 the ship came alive when a general alarm sounded,indicating a fire in Compartment 7,by chance a compartment with no watch keepers in it.A warrant Officer went aft to report on the seriousness of the fire.He entered the compartment and like a good submariner shut the watertight door behind him.The last that was heard of him was on a sound powered phone as he made his report.This suddenly ceased,and the Captain assuming the worst ordered (with reluctance),the compartment flooded with fire suppressing foam.Killing out right the man in there.A fire fighting team was sent aft to compartment six,but reported the rubber seals on the door to 7 melting and the compartment they were in starting to burn.They retreated shutting the hatch behind them.At this stage the reactor shut down and the boat was dead in the water.Several men under the engineering officer entered compartment 5 to secure the reactor to prevent radiation leaks.They were overcome by fumes.At This stage all electrical power failed due to shorting of supply lines.A second party went to the aid of their comrades and although seriously burnt by the fire now raging in compartment 5,managed to retrieve all personnel.Although four of these were found to be dead.This is where the biggest part of the tragedy occurred.Noxious fumes had entered the emergency breathing system and killed several other crew members.The boat was ordered to emergency surface and all survivors mustered on the casing.On trying to launch the emergency life lafts it was found that the fittings covering the containers had rusted.With great difficulty,one raft was launched but was not large enough to hold all survivors.Those not able to get aboard the raft had to endure the freezing water conditions.Five men remained below to try and save the boat,but it was soon obvious that the hull was breached and the five were trapped.Those on the surface noticed that the intense heat from the fires back aft was actually boiling the sea around the submarine.The boat sunk rapidly stern first and the five men still on board entered the escape pod fitted.Despite carrying out the instructions for its release correctly.The pod would not detach.Three of the men left the pod to try and rectify the fault,but using the emergency breathing system,asphyxiated them almost immediately.As the submarine breaking up rapidly hit the ocean floor,the torpedoes detonated and by a miracle the pod released and shot to the surface.The two inside forgot to equalise the pressure before opening the hatch,one was blown out and killed instantly on hitting the sea.The other clung on and escaped successfully.
Of the 69 Officers and crew who Sailed on the KOMSOMOLETS only 27 returned alive.
As Tragic as disaster was,the courage and self sacrifice of several members of the crew attempting to save their boat and rescuing their comrades,is in my humble opinion in the true traditions of the submarine service.No matter what nation they came from.
Regards Steve

Gypsyvannergirl

07-05-2010, 18:58

Sorry

But if the Japanese were so 'honorable', why did they CHOOSE not to send out the next group of attack aircraft. Even those men who were with the Japanese Admiral on his ship were shocked that he didn't finish the job.

Also, since war had not officially been declared in time for Pearl Harbor to prepare itself - strafing innocent men in the water with their Val's or Kate's or whatever constitutes cowardice and murder to me. But that is just my opinion.

The men at Pearl Harbour had no way to fight back. The Japanese didn't even have the 'honour' to meet them on equal footing - on the ground or on the ocean where the ships could have had access to their guns and ammunition. That's a battle in my opinion. When the German's shot at the survivors of the hospital ship Llandovery Castle, it was considered dispicable, but when the Japanese pilots attacked unarmed sailors at Pearl Harbor it wasn't dispicable.

I am well and truly confused.

GVG

Don Boyer

12-05-2010, 00:31

Hi, GVG. Haven't been on the forum much, missed your recent post.

The Pearl Harbor attack was intended as a surprise, and the conduct of the pilots and crews in shooting up the harbor, killing men in the water is hardly any surprise to anyone, and yes, it lacks in honor and could be considered despicable. Considering their later conduct, it was a drop in the bucket. Warfare is unfortunately like that. What I was making a point of was that the Japanese INTENDED to act with honor as they saw it in starting the war. The drop-a-handkerchief, knights in armor days of chivalrous combat (which never really existed either) were long over by then. World War I had pretty much cleared up any romantic illusions about modern combat by the time WW II came about, despite the actions of organizations like the spineless gasbag society League of Nations and all the usual "peace at all costs groups". (Note that its modern counterpart, the United Nations is equally if not more worthless, and for the same reasons.)

The choice to not launch a third attack wave was made by Admiral Nagumo, Task Force Commander, a conservative, non-aviation admiral without much in the way of iron will. He feared that our carriers were lurking out there (they were, but not where they could do damage) and had no stomach for the operation in the first place. He was probably the worst possible choice to lead that group, but the Japanese navy rigidly held to it's promotion by seniority policy even if it resulted in putting the wrong man in place. His conservative decision saved further destruction at Pearl and more losses to the air crews, if nothing else.

Nagumo's action personified the actual combat tendencies of the Japanese navy's senior commanders throughout the war, and it cost them dearly every time. Pearl Harbor -- no third attack; Savo Island -- turned away when they had the Americans by the throat; First night battle of Guadalcanal, turned away when one of two battleships was in serious trouble yet the rest of the force is in fairly good shape while the Americans were on the ropes. Leyte -- turned away from an inferior force. (This has more merit, as said inferior force was kicking the crap out of them!)

There are many other examples in between of this innate conservatism on the part of the IJN based on the fact that the IJN had for years realized that in war the would have a limited number of surface combatants and would not have the luxury of instantly replacing them like the USN could.

What the United States Navy thought of Japanese actions at Pearl Harbor was made perfectly clear by the Chief of Naval Operation's first order to the fleet on December 7, 1941: "Execute unrestricted air and submarine warfare against the forces of Japan." The term "unrestricted" here is absolutely unique in history and is constantly overlooked by historians. What it meant was that all those nice treaties and "conventions" and "agreements" we were party to between the wars that laid out all those nice civilized rules of engagement intended to make for "clean" warfare had just been torn up and thrown in the trash. Admiral Stark had given an order legitimizing just about any conduct necessary to win, short of the obvious lack of need to torture, deliberately murder innocent civilians, or commit other acts that did not involve defeating the enemy in combat.

The Japanese were paid back in spades for their conduct. For example, check the Battle of the Bismarck Sea, March 1943, where land-based American aircraft destroyed and entire Japanese troop convoy of eight ships and also sank four of eight destroyers involved, leaving thousands of troops and naval personnel and civilians in the water. We sent everything we could get our hands on out there, including PT boats and killed everybody we could find in the water. Nobody in the civilian or military chain of command batted an eye, and the newspaper coverage made no big deal of it. Warfare is just really nasty painful business, always.

Wellbran

30-05-2010, 19:48

My choice here is not a Ship but a whole fleet and international fleet that had no support no air cover running out of feul and low on munitions, that was the ABDA fleet, the forgotten fleet and judging by this thrread it is still forgotten. Thius has "touched" me since I was writing about it at school aged about 8 now I am 55 here is my youtube page and find the clips I have on this, starting with this one, about my Fathers story, never before told.

The Navy has a bad memory for losses but a good one for victories, look in any Naval history book and you will find Pearl Harbor and then it usually jumps to Midway, if you are very lucky you might get Coral sea in between but never Java...its lost in time. A complete shambles

my clip here >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hF-Tast2Ua8

and here also :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUNd832hOw0&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZytGYxkzyI8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cJf4PN0oaM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vZv7es44bM&feature=related

Don Boyer

31-05-2010, 02:14

There are a lot of excellent coverages of the ABDA fleet and the bad situation the Asiatic Fleet found itself in early in WWII. The heavy cruiser Houston has had several books written about her travails, one of the better ones being Duane Schultz' "The Last Battlestation." Dave McKays "The Lonely Ships" is a fair read. Dwight Messimer's "In the Hands of Fate" covers the Patrol planes that survived the Philippines and moved on to the Asia stations. Morison's Vol III, "The Rising Sun in the Pacific" covers all the early disasters to the fleet as the war began. Theodore Roscoe's "United States Submarine Operations in WWII coves the problems of the early submarine actions in SE Asia and the Philippines. There are many more. There are also a ton of books out there on battles the U S Navy lost -- good thing, too, as one can learn from those.

The navy itself may have a slight lapse of memory publicly, but there is no shortage of good analysis of what actually happened.

If there is anything about the Asiatic Fleet and the ABDA disaster, it's that the US books tend to focus on the US ships, and seldom include the full story of the Dutch, British, Australian and other Allied ships that also fought and went down then.

Wellbran

31-05-2010, 08:28

My personal experience...and beef.. is when I mention to anyone My father was on board HMS Exeter they say oh yes! River Plate!.....makes you sick. Churchill shouild have left it wherre it rightly belonged.....In the falklands. would have spared my Dad a whole lot of pain and grief....RIP Thatcher had her belgrano and Churchill had his beloved Exeter what did he do after an expensive and out of date refit? send her to her certain doom to the Far east...well done that man.

Brett Hendey

31-05-2010, 08:35

Unless I have missed it, not mentioned so far in this thread is the sinking of the SS Mendi during World War I. The following account is gleaned from the official website of the South African Navy (www.navy.mil.za).

In January 1917, the troopship SS Mendi sailed from Cape Town for Europe carrying a contingent of the South African Native Labour Corps made up of 805 black privates, 5 white officers and 17 non-commissioned officers. There were also 33 crew members. On the 21st of February in the English Channel, the Mendi was rammed by SS Darro and sank within 20 minutes. All of the crewmen died, as well as 607 black and 9 white troops. The black soldiers were uneducated or poorly educated labourers, with little or no understanding of the war. Few would have seen the sea before and almost certainly none had ever travelled on it. These men "sang and stamped the death dance together as the SS Mendi sank", their priest, Reverenc Isaac Wauchope Dyobha having addressed them as follows:

"Be quiet and calm my countrymen, for what is taking place now is what you came here to do. We are all going to die, and that is what we came for. Brothers, we are drilling the death drill. I, a Zulu, say here and now that you are all my brothers ... Xhosas, Swazis, Pondos, Basotho and all others, let us die like warriors. We are the sons of Africa. Raise your war cries my brothers, for though they made us leave our assegais back in the kraals, our voices are left with our bodies ..."

Tribal lore tells that the black tribes in South Africa knew of the disaster before it was officially announced.

"Like so many other military disasters, the story of the SS Mendi is a story of supreme courage in the face of death and valour shown between brothers towards each other in dire circumstances. The courage displayed by these men has remained a legend in South African military history."

Brett