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qprdave
28-09-2009, 22:20
To those who were there. Might bring back some memories. I had forgotten that they let the Unwanted be Flagship for the day!!!!


50 ships in a Scottish naval panorama

From

BASIL GINGELL, Naval Correspondent on board H.M.S. Kent at sea, Aug 1 1968

Not for 10 years or more have Scottish waters seen such a display of naval strength as that put on today by ships of the Western Fleet. It came as the finale to Exercise Seaforth, code name for the Royal Navy's assembly of shipping. In this a varied armada steamed in line ahead in salute to the retiring First Sea Lord, Admiral Sir Varyl Begg, as he stood on the bridge of this flagship of the C.-in-C. Western Fleet. Sir John Bush. Over the North Sea expanse at the entrance to the Firth of Forth 50 ships stretched in columns of three on either side of H.M.S. Kent. They ranged as far as one could see, a heartening sight after so much talk of our diminishing Navy. The ships had left their berths in Rosyth dockyard, with its great nuclear servicing capability, at five-minute intervals from 4 a.m., watched by hundreds of Scottish early risers at points along the Forth Bridge. Three of the ships, apart from the Kent, wore the flags of admirals. Flag Officer Aircraft Carriers was embarked in the largest ship at the assembly, the commando ship Bulwark, whose helicopters were to play their part in the day's proceedings. Flag Officer Sea Training was flying his flag in H.M.S. Undaunted and the hydrographer of the Navy had his flying from H.M.S. Vidal, the neat survey ship. As the ships increased their speed towards the open sea the sun shone and the panorama assumed something of the appearance of a massive royal review. In the North Sea well east of the Bass Rock H.M.S. Kent slowed to eight knots to allow each ship in turn to steam past in salute. Less than 100 yards on either side of this guided missile destroyer they swept by. Destroyers, squadrons of frigates, the new and the old. The Battle Class destroyer Aisne, now on her last commission, the handsome, rakish Leander Frigates such as Juno and Danae on their first. The new survey vessels Bulldog and Eagle, followed in the wake of Vidal and the fleet auxiliarics, now an integral part of the service although they do not fly the white ensign. There was all the ceremonial for the occasion, ships' companies lining thc side. much piping as the vessels passed, and the usual "attention to starboard " and "attention to port " heralding the approach of each ship as it drew alongside the flagship. There were original touches, too, Captain R. D. MacDonald in the Galatea. who had brought the Londonderry squadron to Rosvth, had a piper on the forecastle playing Scotland the Brave. There was a piper also on H.M.S. Kepple, piping away as that followed. A Shackleton roared overhead and six Buccaneers of 800 Squadron from Lossiemouth flew at mast height over the ship in salute. This was to have been the preliminary to a flying display by Sea Vixens, but fog clamped down and the rest of the proceedings had to be abandoned. The submarines on the far wing of the columns were lost to view, the ships became enshrouded in mist, and only the moaning of the ships' sirens indicated their presence to watchers on the bridge. It had all been impressive, however, and Sir Varyl Begg, whose promotion to Admiral of the Fleet was announced today. sent the following signal to C.-in-C. Western Fleet on leaving to return to London: " I have much enjoyed my visit and I have been greatly encouraged to find the Western Fleet in such good heart. I was also delighted to have the chance of spending the final day at sea with you. " I thought Exercise Seaforth went splendidly and the appearance and manoeuvring of the fleet were first class. I am sorry that fog stopped play. Many thanks for such a happy and memorable send off." Sir John Bush left for his Northwood headquarters and H.M.S. Kent proceeded on her good will four-day visit to Bremen. Most of the other ships dispersed for summer leave. 50 ships in a Scottish naval panorama

The Times of the Day

harry.gibbon
28-09-2009, 22:26
Ah yes fine man my skipper on the Falmouth:-

Captain R. D. MacDonald in the Galatea. who had brought the Londonderry squadron to Rosvth, had a piper on the forecastle playing Scotland the Brave.

as I have posted in the past he painted the pic in my signature!!!

Little h

qprdave
28-09-2009, 22:29
With a name like MacDonald and having his own Piper. Would I be way of the mark if I said that he was a Scotsman!!!!!!!!!!

qprdave
28-09-2009, 22:32
It mentions that the ships dispersed for Summer leave and visits.

The Undaunted and the 2nd Frigate Squadron had a great visit after the Review. Scapa Flow!!!!!! Where we had a squadron yachting regatta.

Guz rating
28-09-2009, 22:39
That is a very interesting posting Dave I really enjoyed it. Were you present at the review. Pity about the fog.
Regards
Alan.

harry.gibbon
28-09-2009, 22:41
Dave re your post # 3; this was he:-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/1321131/Vice-Admiral-Sir-Roderick-Macdonald.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/obituaries/viceadmiral-sir-roderick-macdonald-728752.html


Little h

qprdave
28-09-2009, 22:41
I think that they might have made a small mistake. He mentions the survey vessel HMS Eagle. I think that it might have been HMS Beagle. Wasn't the proper Eagle still in commission in '68?

qprdave
28-09-2009, 22:42
Yes Guzz, I was there. On the Undaunted

qprdave
28-09-2009, 22:47
Thanks Harry

I have added the Telegraph Obit to the Obits thread

harry.gibbon
28-09-2009, 22:57
Thank you Sir!!! Much obliged Little h

qprdave
28-09-2009, 22:57
Is that a coincidence, or what!!!!!!!

The Obit of Captain Mac. that I have just place in the Obits thread is in between Terence Lewin, who was his friend on the Valiant and Bernard Rawlings, the Captain of Valiant, who he, quote "Adored"!!!!

harry.gibbon
28-09-2009, 23:00
Yep sirree tis excellent; and Tim (who knew Roddy) will, I am sure, think that your efforts are well placed also. BZ that man!!! Little h

qprdave
28-09-2009, 23:09
Thanks Harry

I haven't got any original photos of ships to offer and others in this forum are doing a great job in that area. So I decided that I would do the Obits thread to broaden the forum a bit.

tim lewin
29-09-2009, 04:57
Well done Dave, I was about to say that his obit is not in "our" list but is easily accessible on the net. Roddy was very "scottish" and in retirement went to live in the Isle of Skye where he was known as the "Admiral of the Western Isles", he was able to enjoy a lot of painting there as well. Iknow I have said this anecdote before but it bears repetition, when he left his training as a midshipman his captain wrote on his report "This officer also plays the bagpipes" to which the appointer sent back "Adverse comments should be underlined in red"

He had a rough time in the war in the destroyer HMS Fortune with a rather demented skipper, eventually he wrote a book about this called "The Figurehead" which altho out of print now is worth finding and reading, he wrote very lucidly. Roddy also wrote the definitive self-help book for new captains called "Your Ship" which I think is still in print. While rambling on, has anyone read Captain (later Adm) Troup's "On The Bridge", a guide book to watchkeeping officers of the war era and just before?
Maybe Roddy deserves a thread to himself?

tim lewin
29-09-2009, 05:01
I should add that Roddy knew the American writer Herman Wouk and soon after the war told him the story of "The Figurehead" and their experiences in a typhoon in the Indian Ocean, the captain's bizarre and obsessive behaviour, the near mutiny by her officers etc. Which Wouk later wove into the narrative of his brilliant book The Caine Mutiny; difference being that Roddy's experiences were very real and character-forming, remember he was 22/3 at the time.

astraltrader
29-09-2009, 13:57
I am sorry guys but as someone who has no naval memories to fall back on I cant help but feel sad when I look at what has happened to the navy in the 40+ years since this 1968 Fleet Review. And even then the Naval Correspondent referred to these ships after "so much talk of our diminishing Navy."

qprdave
29-09-2009, 14:26
I agree with you entirely, Terry.

But it has to be remembered that a lot of the ships were getting near the end of their lives. i.e. Type 15s and the Aisne. I have read, maybe in this forum, that the County Class were made obsolete because their Seaslug missiles made them so. This class was made entirely to fit this type of missile and when the missiles went, so did the Counties.

The Type 14s (Blackwood Class) were solely for Anti Submarine work (Although they did a bit as Fishery Protection). They just didn't fit into the requirements of the modern navy.

What is sad and, in my opinion, almost criminal, was not replacing them with ships that were more suited for modern requirements of the navy.

We need a "Jack of all trades" type of ship that can carry out many tasks that today's navy is called upon to do.

astraltrader
29-09-2009, 15:13
Absolutely agree with what you say Dave.
Even now it is not too late to start to work on exactly that sort of ship.
Of course the appallingly run down state of the Navy would restrict the numbers that were built but at least we would be heading in the right direction.

Big Al
05-10-2009, 19:25
Terry/qprdave,
I agree with you both about the current state of the RN,and it makes me very angry to see it in this condition. When I joined we were taught that As an island Nation we relied on the Royal Navy for the safeguarding of our sea lanes. I always thought that the County Class could have been upgraded to the new missile systems that were coming online, and therefore would have extended their working lives.

astraltrader
05-10-2009, 21:01
It is funny but I also thought that the same thing could have happened to the county class destroyers as well - they could have lasted easily another 10+ years if that had happened.

qprdave
05-10-2009, 21:16
I think that the reason was that the Magazine and loading run went through nearly the length of the ship and the design wasn't in keeping with the loading system of newer missiles that tended to come up vertically instead of horizontally as with the Counties.

Of course it could have been a political excuse for cutting out the bigger ships with bigger crews to save money!

qprdave
05-10-2009, 21:29
The DLGs in depth.

These ships were designed around the huge Seaslug ship to air missile system. The missile was unnecessarily large because British scientists insisted that tandem boosters would be unstable longitudinally, in spite of German wartime design and current American thinking. The resulting missile with four wrapped boosters was massive and needed a large heavy launcher with a tunnel design through the ship to feed it. This design proved difficult to engineer in the shipyards and made the class specific to that missile so when it became obsolete so did the ship.

Ref. http://www.wstg.co.uk/ivan%27s%20page.htm

Scroll down to GLDs

harry.gibbon
05-10-2009, 22:04
Dave, I remember posting that link to clarify another issue not so long back, it is an interesting read!

However; lets put the whole demise of the Counties in perspective, by using the Matapan as an example... a Battle Class destroyer becoming a sonar trials ship!! A complete conversion I would say!!! also the Battle A/D conversions!

If the will exists it is perfectly feasible to re-equip a warship to become what is untimately desired ... so I'll not stop at that Battle Class rebuild but hone in on the Type 15's; a frigate type about which you are well versed!!! here is another complete destroyer conversion into a particularily effective A/S frigate.

So its down to the will of the masters civil and military... The Counties had relatively high crew numbers but a conversion to a modern missile type could well have significantly reduced those numbers by a considerable amount. In fact leaving so much space that the accommodation could have been as plush as that of the type 45 now - but much earlier:):rolleyes:

They should have been revamped big style and perhaps even the Bristol would not have had to be built.

Little h

qprdave
05-10-2009, 22:33
You're right, of Course Harry. Anything can be done to anything if the will is there. I fear that the Political will was missing!!!.

Guz rating
07-10-2009, 14:24
I think that the reason was that the Magazine and loading run went through nearly the length of the ship and the design wasn't in keeping with the loading system of newer missiles that tended to come up vertically instead of horizontally as with the Counties.

Of course it could have been a political excuse for cutting out the bigger ships with bigger crews to save money!

Dave in 1957 the "Girdle Ness was in Guzz dockyard having some adjustments made. But she was to go out again to continue her trials of the "Sea Slug" missiles. I was trying everything to get on board to see them firing the rockets. Until one of the older and wiser hands said don't bother. He had just come off, he said they fired a missile which turned around and came back towards the ship. He also said it was crawling with boffins and hardly anywhere to crash. I remember seeing the boffins in Guzz wardroom. Exciting times considering everyone was saying the whole thing would be ditched.

Alan

qprdave
07-10-2009, 15:50
"I remember posting that link to clarify another issue not so long back, it is an interesting read!"



It proves that we do read and appreciate you searching the web, Harry. Keep it up

jbryce1437
07-10-2009, 21:05
Just realised that I was also on Undaunted for this Fleet Review (I joined her March 1968 to Sep 1970) , although it doesn't stick out in my mind as a memorable occassion, in fact, I had forgotten about the real reason why we were in Rosyth. I remember getting called round by an old messmate off the Ark (Royal not Noah's), after tot time we walked through the Dockyard and along the shoreline to, just below, the Forth Bridge. I can't remember visiting Scapa Flow either, I must have been turned to below decks:D