RN Submarines: K-Class

[Margaretanne]

Hi,

My nameis margaret Wright and I am conducting some research regarding the worst British submarine disaster in 1918 just off the Anstruther coast - near the May Island. I would really like to talk to anyone who has any information at all that might help me as I am hoping to make this a research project for myself.::)

[Batstiger]

Hi Margaret, welcome to the forum.

The submarines yo mention were actually called the "K" class.
There is a very informative book called "THE K boats" by Don Everitt. The amazing story of Britain's steam submarines.
As far as I know it is the only book written about them. I have it in front of me now and it was first printed in 1972.
If you search on ebay, ABE books or Amazon I am sure you will be able to get a copy.
On the inside of the front page it says :- tThe classic story of the K boats was of the Captain who telephoned his First Lieutenant in the bows: "I say, number one, my end is diving: what the hell is your end doing?"- Commander Stephen King-Hall, My naval life 1906-1929.

I have not yet mastered on what basis our submarines harm the enemy more than themselves! Lord Fisher, First Sea Lord, to Commodore (Submarines) Roger Keyes, November 8, 1914.

Bob.

[Batstiger]

Here are some pictures of some "K" class Margaret and also some of the "M" class which in fact were modified "K" class of which two came to grief in tragic circumstances, but that is another story !

[kc]

I can also vouch for that book being a very good read. Once I started I read it from start to finish in one go - I couldn't put it down.

Also just round the corner from us here is a memorial to those lost on K13 on the Gareloch. I beleive they have a memorial there possibly every year, perhaps less often though.

[Batstiger]

Builders Fate
K1. Portsmouth dockyard. Sunk after collision with K4, Nov 17 1917.
K2. Portsmouth. Scrapped 1926.
K3. Vickers. Scrapped 1920.
K4. Vickers. Sunk in collision with K6 Jan 31 1918.
K5. Portsmouth. Lost on exercises Jan 20 1921.
K6. Devonport. Scrapped 1926.
K7. Devonport. Scrapped 1919.
K8. Vickers. Scrapped 1923.
K9. Vickers. Scrapped 1921.
K10. Vickers. Scrapped 1921.
K11. Armstrong Whitworth. Scrapped 1921.
K12. Armstrong. Scrapped 1926.
K13. Fairfields Clydeside. Sunk on acceptance trials Jan 29 1917
raised and renumbered K22.
K14. Fairfields. Scrapped 1925.
K15. Scott's Clydeside. Sunk in Portsmouth harbour Jun 25 1921
raised and beached scrapped 1923.
K16. Beardmore's Clydeside. Scrapped 1923.
K17. Vickers. Sunk in collision with HMS Fearless
Jan 31. 1918.
K18. Vickers.
Became
M1. Sunk in collision with SS Vidor Nov 12
1925.
K19. Vickers.
Became
M2. Sunk on exercises Jan 26 !932.
K20.
Became
M3. Armstrong. Scrapped 1932.
K21.
Became
M4. Cancelled.
K22.
Alias Raised and refitted by Fairfields Scrapped. 1926.
K13.
K23. Ordered from
K24. Armstrong Whitworth Cancelled
K25. June 10th 1918.
K26. Vickers and Chatham dockyard Scrapped 1931.
K27. Ordered from
K28. Vickers Jun 10th 1918. Cancelled.



Hope this helps you out.

Bob.

[John Brown]

Margaret

The accident you refer to became known as the 'Battle of May Island' although it did not involve any enemy ships. Around 40 Royal Naval vessels were leaving Rosyth for Scapa Flow where they were to take part in exercises with the rest of the Grand Fleet. Whilst near May Island and in the dark, the 13th Submarine Flotilla had to turn sharply to avoid a pair of minesweeping trawlers. There followed a series of mishaps and mechanical problems which led to collisions resulting in the sinking of two submarines with three others and a light cruiser being damaged. In addition, around 100 men lost their lives.

The K Class submarines were built in response to a requirement for submarines to be able to operate with the Fleet.The only way of ensuring submarines had enough speed to operate with Battleships was to fit them with steam driven engines. This resulted in the vessels having 'too many damned holes' and they were extremely unsafe because of this.

The Battle of May Island is well documented on the web should you require further info.

Hope this helps.


Details about the Battle of May Island here: http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10125 (http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10125)

[astraltrader]

Bob - here as requested are some pictures of K and M class submarines that I have. Hope some prove to be of interest to you my friend...

[astraltrader]

And a handful more. When I hook up my other computer I will put on here any others that I have...

[Batstiger]

You are a Trojan Terry! I have some of them but yours are better than mine so I can do a bit of swopping around.
Did you ever read The "K" boats by Don Everitt. Well worth reading if you haven't?

Cheers,

Bob.

[astraltrader]

Cheers Bob - I will keep my eye open for that one.

[seaJane]

Margaret,

The archivist at the RN Submarine Museum may also be able to help you - contact details on here somewhere http://www.rnsubmus.co.uk/

[historydavid]

Margaret, the crews of the K class spoke of themselves as members of the "suicide club."

[HMS Bergamot]

When Lieut Commander Godfrey Herbert took the newly built submarine, K-13, on her acceptance trials on the 29th January, 1917, he probably thought that the day would not have much significance in his life. If all went well, he would be signing the acceptance forms and tomorrow his ship would be joining the fleet.


At 8am, everything was in order, there were 80 men on board the submarine, and the giant steam submarine, her funnels belching thick black smoke, moved slowly down the Clyde.


As was becoming common with others of the ‘K’ class, things went wrong from the start. She had only moved a mile when the steering motor was accidentally switched off. K13 grounded her bows on the soft mud of the bank, and with the ebbing tide pulling her stern around she was soon athwart the river. Herbert allowed the tide to bring the stern right around before going astern on the engines and proceeding, somewhat incongrously, backwards down the Clyde. It was only when he reached a tributary, known as the Cart, that he had room to put her about.


By 11.30, K-13 was on the Gareloch, working up to full power, and undergoing the various tests that a new vessel undergoes: starting, stopping, full speed, turning, going astern. All proceeded smoothly.
On her first dive though, there was a problem. Her depth increased throughout the dive, and when she resurfaced her Engineer-Lieutenant, Arthur Lane, reported that there was a small leak in the boiler room and that some 200 tons of water had entered the compartment. The heat of the boiler room had been such that it had prevented anyone ascertaining the source of the leak.


Herbert proposed to have lunch, whilst the boiler room was pumped out and ventilated, and then to do a test dive afterwards.


Eighty men reboarded the submarine after lunch for the final dive. Herbert headed her towards the head of the Gareloch and then ordered “diving stations”. As the submarine prepared to submerge he even had time to personally walk aft along the superstructure to pass the order personally down the open engine room hatch and to watch the funnels being lowered into place. Electric motors swung the funnels on hinges into wells in the superstructure. The holes left were then sealed off by hatches operating in unison with the funnels.


Herbert walked back to the conning tower. In the control room below a red light came on illuminating the word, “shut”. The first lieutenant reported, “Engine room shut off for diving.” As Herbert descended into the control room he saw the red light shining. It was too bright to miss.


In the control room Herbert watched the bows through the periscope. He ordered, “Dive to 20 feet.” And watched the bows begin to submerge.
Suddenly, an ERA emerged from the boiler room saying, “The boiler room is flooding freely, tell the Captain to surface.” Water was pouring through the fans which hung below the ventilators.


Herbert ordered, “Hard-a-rise, blow two and three.” With the indicators showing a depth of 10 feet the hydroplane wheels were spun and compressed air hissed into the tank. K-13 continued to sink. A blast of warm air blew from the aft compartments into the control room. “Close water tight doors, drop forward keel, blow all forward tanks.” Nothing worked. 50 feet down, the submarine came gently to rest, listing slightly to port and 4 degrees up by the bow. As Herbert ordered, “Stop both motors,” three thick jets of water shot from the voice pipes leading to the aft compartments and dowsed the port switchboard. Before anyone could move, fuses began to blow, electric cables crackled, and smoked, and then burst into flames, producing thick acrid smoke. Men beat the flames with the bare hands, electric shocks threw them back. Others poked wet sacking on the burning switchboard. Other men were trying to stop the flow of water through the voice pipes. At last, by ramming pieces of sacking into them the flow was mostly staunched.


An investigation of the crew and compartments found that the submarine was flooded aft of the midships torpedo room, and of the 80 men on board, only 49 answered the roll call. 31 men were missing, presumed dead. Estimates were made that the air would last for 8 hours.


In the midships torpedo room water was pouring through the aft bulkhead at 2 feet an hour, the electric bilge pump kept the level down. It was 3pm, and the submarine would not be missed until 3.30pm. Darkness would fall about 4pm, so the crew would have to ride out the night alone.
On the surface, a fellow submarine, E-50, had seen the K-13 dive, and her commander had been intrigued by the manner of her diving. As she had submerged, two specks had appeared and disappeared (thought by the E-50’s commander, Lieut-Commander Mitchell to be the tips of her periscopes) and rowed his submarines skiff on the loch above the K-13. He wondered if her conning tower had flooded allowing salt water into the batteries, but testing of a sample of water showed n o chlorine. Only bubbles erupting on the surface showed the position of the K-13.

At midnight a salvage vessel arrived, carrying a diving suit, but no diver. A car was sent to fetch the Fairfield’s own diver and at 4am he arrived and began to don the Gossamer’s diving suit. No sooner than he had entered the water though than the suit burst. It hadn’t been used in years, and the half drowned diver was pulled out of the water. The car raced back to Glasgow to collect another suit.


Two more rescue ships arrived. A trawler, and an old sloop called “Thrush”. At daybreak the car returned with the fresh diving suit and the diver descended down to K-13. As soon as he landed on the sub, the men inside could hear him walking about. The men on the surface could also hear the tapped responses from the entombed men. “All well before engine room bulkhead” they reported.


Inside the submarine the Co2 levels were rising, and that coupled with the high pressure was causing the men to labour in their breathing. At intervals the bilge pump was operated to keep the water in the midships torpedo room down, whilst some of the worst air was drawn off by a compressor into the air bottles, whilst fresher air was released from others.

Herbert, and a visiting Captain from another K boat, Commander Francis Goodhart, discussed methods of escape. They were concerned that the salvors on the surface would concentrate too much on raising the submarine and not enough on rescuing the men. They decided to flood the conning tower and let Goodhart escape up to the surface. Inside the conning tower was a dome, where the compass was housed. By making modifications to the pipes entering and leaving the conning tower, it would be possible to flood the tower, allow Goodhart to esacape, and then drain the tower down again to allow Herbert to rejoin his men. Modifications took until mid day, which was also the lowest point of the tide. Herbert wrote a brief description of what had happened, the conditions inside the boat, and of what he felt the rescuers should do. Another man compiled a list of those men still alive. These notes, along with several farewell messages were pushed into a water tight tin. Goodhart said, “Well, if I don’t get up, this will” as he pushed the tin under his belt. Both Goodhart and Herbert entered the tower. They closed the lower hatch, and standing with their heads in the dome, flooded the conning tower. Herbert turned on the high pressure air and Goodhart knocked off the clips to the upper hatch. With the pressure equalised the hatch opened. “Well”, said Goodhart, “I’m off!” Herbert said, “Good luck” and Goodhart ducked under the surface and shot through the hatch.


Herbert reached to close the hatch, but the expanding compressed air knocked him off his feet and through the hatch. He hit his head on the roof of the conning tower, but the air flow carried him through the upper hatch and up to the surface.


On the surface the salvagers had been discussing how to get the men out. They had hit upon a plan to pass a sweep under the bows of K-13, in order to lift them, and to allow the men to escape through the bow torpedo tubes. There was some fear, by the builders ,that K-13 would break in half, but Mitchell went ahead with the sweeping. They passed the wire under the bows on the first attempt and began to pass the wire around a capstan. Thrush and the trawler took the strain.


The next moment there was a huge eruption of air from below (Mitchell thought for one moment that K-13 HAD broken in two) and a man appeared from below. It was Herbert. “Where’s Goodhart?” he asked. “I’ve just blown him out of the conning tower.” No one had seen him.


Herbert went aboard Thrush and told Mitchell that K-13 needed compressed air to replenish her air bottles. This would enable her to blow her forward tanks and assist in the lifting of the bows. E-50 had four lengths of high pressure air hose, just enough to reach the sunken submarine.

Below on K13, the air had kept them men alive for 24 hours, but most were now listless as they sprawled on the deck. It was not until 6pm that the diver connected the air hose to the external connection on K-13. The compressors were banging away at 2500 psi, but nothing seemed to be getting into the sub. They tried morse code on the deck of the sub, telling the men to open the valve. Nothing worked. Eventually, Mitchell ordered the diver to uncouple the pipe and to bring it to the surface. It was there that they found it blocked with ice! Seven hours lost. Mitchell cleared the pipe and had it re-connected. This time, the hissing of the compressed air filled the submarine below. Men close to death sat up wide eyed and gathered around the air pipe. It was 35 hours since K-13 has sunk. The men below only allowed a small amount of air to escape before thet set about replenishing the air bottles. They filled several banks, and then blew every tank under their control.


The forward bubble began to indicate 5 degrees, 6, 7, 8 as the bow began to rise. On the surface the salvage vessels hove in the line as the bows rose. The trawler was heeling badly under the strain, and, with the bows only 8 feet under the water, Mitchell called a halt to the lift (although it took 15 minutes to get through to the men in the sub to stop blowing the tanks).


The divers now attached a second pipe, 4 inches in diameter, to the submarine, through which unlimited air, food and water could be passed. Passed, if only the men could be persuaded to open the hatch from inside the sub. The men though were preoccupied with keeping the water down in the midships torpedo room. Raising the bows had lifted the bilge pump above the water level. They resorted to bailing, passing the water forward with two buckets, one of which had a hole in it. After an hour of incessent bailing, they had a better idea. Waist deep in icy water they unscrewed a manhole to an empty fuel tank beneath the torpedo room. The water immediately drained into it. Then they blew the water into the Gareloch with compressed air.


On the surface Mitchell sat in a bosun’s chair slung under the bows of the trawler. He had to sit in this position because the food pipe only projected 4 inches out of the water. He kept signalling to the men to open the hatch, even, with frustration, bellowing down the pipe, “Open the hatch.” It stayed closed.


At daybreak Herbert relieved him, and almost immediately the men opened the hatch. The pressurised bad air in the submarine blew straight up the pipe and formed a small cloud over the surface. Herbert waited for it to clear and then passed a divers air pipe down the tube. The men used the pipe to out pockets of the bad air. They all felt a lot more comfortable. The only downside was that the high pressure had been helping to staunch the water flow through the bulkhead in the torpedo room. Now the flow was a lot faster.


At the surface the direction in which to proceed was being hotly debated. Herbert, and some others wanted to lower the bow back down to the seabed and await a specially built rescue tube which would be 60 feet long. This would be fastened to one of the torpedo loading hatches and pumped dry. The men would then be able to climb up it to escape. Mitchell was worried that the bulkhead could give way. He said that they only had to lift the bows a few more feet to clear the bow torpedo tubes above the surface, through which the men could escape. He won the point. At midday on the Wednesday, Thrush and the trawler again hove in the line, and the bows of K-13 broke the surface and reared 10 feet clear. Then, a shout! “She’s slipping out of the slings!” Quick action prevented further movement, but K-13’s stern was now buried 12 feet deep in slippery mud, and they couldn’t risk that method again, and the lower lips of the torpedo tubes were still 3 inches below the water.


The next decision made was to cut a hole in the roof of the forward torpedo compartment. This was deemed by some, “very bad salvage.” It was argued that you could close a torpedo tube if the need arose, but you couldn’t close a hole through the hull cut by torch. A t 2pm the torch was applied to the hull, but almost instantly a fire broke out in the barge ruining the equipment. Another set had to be sent for, and it wasn’t until 8pm that the hole began to be cut.


The men were evacuated from the submarine, beginning at 9pm. Motor boats sped the men ashore. Their ordeal was over.


Out on the Gareloch K-13 was getting heavier. The bulkhead was obviously leaking. At the end of the following day she tore the bollards out of the two barges holding her up and sank back to the bottom. The next day, before salvage operations began, divers investigated the submarine. They found Goodhart’s body still in the conning tower. He had struck his head on the roof of the conning tower and had drowned. The tin was still under his belt. They also found that all four of the 37 inch ventilators were in the open position, and that the indicator showed them to be open. And the engine room hatch was open! As the submarine was so large, control could not be done personally by the commanding officer , but had to be done remotely. It was the engine room staff that set the indicator which showed in the control room that the submarine was closed for diving. An investigation came to the conclusion that Herbert was justified in believing the submarine was closed up for diving, and solely blamed Engineer Lieutenant Lane for the accident.


The investigation made several recommendations. In the K class the indicators in the control room were modified to operate directly from the hatches and openings, rather than the hands of the engine room staff, the number of civilians carried in future was to be strictly limited, and no more submarines were to be numbered 13.


6 weeks after the accident, the water was pumped out of K-13 and she resurfaced like a sleepy whale on the 15th March. During that afternoon the bodies of the drowned in the rear compartments were removed for burial. One clung to a ladder in the act of escaping, another had 13 pound notes in a pocket, all but two of which were dry. Thirty one coffins were prepared, but there were only 29 bodies. Two were missing, Lane, and a man called John Steel. Now the relevence of the open engine room hatch was understood, and the evidence of a maid called Annie McIntyre understood. When K-13 had dived, and people had seen the tips of her periscopes momentarily break surface before disappearing again, Annie had seen that those two specks were the heads of two men, who had cried out, before disappearing. Lane and Steel had waited for the pressure to equalise before opening the hatch. They had reached the surface, only to succumb to the drop in pressure in their lungs. Lane’s body was found 2 months later miles down the Clyde on a mud bank. He was buried with the rest in a small plot overlooking the scene of the incident. They never did find John Steel’s body.

K-13 was towed back to the yard to be refitted, but her involvement with death and misbehaviour was not over yet. She would again have her day. (But that will be another story).

[historydavid]

The Admiralty lists 32 casualties from that day.

The K boats were a fiasco from start to finish, it is no wonder that their crews described themselves as members of "The suicide club."

[HMS Bergamot]

Absolutely correct, the 31 that were lost in the aft section, and Goodhart in the escape attempt from the conning tower.

Regards

[CYLLA]

This a plaque that is at the priory at BIRKENHEAD,and going up the tower of the church is all the names of lads who lost there lives. R.I.P


cylla

[BB60]

good story, Berg. Interesting to read.

[HMS Bergamot]

Thank you, we aims to please.

When I get time I've a few more stories about the K subs to tell.

Regards,

[HMS Bergamot]

I recently posted an article on the sinking of K-13 in the Gareloch.

A long time ago, I saw a photograph of the K-13 in the Gareloch, periscopes sticking out of the water and salvage vessels around about.

Has anyone got a copy? I can't remember where I saw it, but it's not on my old computer.

Please don't confuse it with the one of K-3, bows on to the camera, entering a floating dock after she had nose dived to the bottom with the future king on board! You can almost convince yourself that the K-3 says K-13.

The photo I recall of K-13 is taken from her starboard quarter looking forward.

Hope you can help,


Regards,

[Batstiger]

I have numerous pictures of the "K" boats but cannot recall that particular one. The only pic I have of the K.13 is this one.
If you look through the search you will find a thread on the K boats but not that picture.
Let me know if you come across it!

Cheers, Bob.

[HMS Bergamot]

Loss of the K5

In June 1919, the victory cruise around the British isles by units of the Grand Fleet saw the K-boats out in force. Unsuspecting members of the public in coastal towns up and down the country could not help but be impressed by the giant 339 foot steam powered submarines that turned up in their harbour. These monsters must surely have played a conspicuous part in the victory at sea.


In the 12 months since the armistice was signed, the K-boats actually had lost none of their ability to get into trouble. K-15, twice in one month, dived out of control in the North Sea, hitting the sea bottom, K-8 caught fire in Chatham whilst refitting, K-14 was all but lost when a boiler explosion forced open her mushroom ventilators as she was diving. Only quick action by her crew brought her back to the surface with a flooded boiler room. Then, when she was repairing, she suffered another fire and explosion, this time in the batteries.


During the spring cruise of 1920, the re-formed Atlantic Fleet visited Arosa Bay, Gibraltar, Majorca and Algiers. It was a busy time for the crews and only at Algiers did they get a few days shore leave. At the end of the leave, the Senior Submarine Officer, Commander John Hutchings in K-5, led the 1st submarine flotilla out of Algiers port at 18 knots.


Arriving back at their home ports, the K-boat crews were dispersed for easter leave. When they returned, K-5 had a new commander, Lieut-Commander John Austin Gaimes, DSO. ‘Jackie’ Gaimes had spent 6 months with the flotilla, serving in their escort cruiser, Inconstant’. He had earned his DSO as a commander of a minelaying E-boat, operating out of Harwich. He was proud to be appointed to the large K boats, but would soon be initiated into their fickle behaviour.


It was early in the summer, during exercises in Largo Bay, in the Firth of Forth, that K-5 nose dived to the bottom of the estuary, sticking her nose in the bottom mud. For 10 minutes she lay at an angle of 45 degrees, her depth gauges indicating 120 feet, and her stern sticking out of the water. Gaimes put the motors full astern, but the huge bronze propellors, sticking out of the water, only glinted impotently in the sunshine and attracted the attention of Inconstant. Presently, Gaimes blew the forward tanks and the submarine surfaced witout damage. A Board of enquiry failed to find a cause.


In July, the 1st flotilla, gathered at Scapa, sailed south to rejoin the Atlantic Fleet anchored in Tor Bay. The submarines called at Milford Haven on the way, and were then ordered hurriedly to sea. K-5 rammed an obsolete destroyer which was on its way to the scrappers, and hadn’t been pulled in alongside its tug for the night. The damage to both vessels was superficial and above water, but the swan bows of K-5 were visibly crumpled. Gaimes pressed on ahead of the other submarines and arrived 24 hours ahead of the surface ships. Gaimes, determined to hide all traces of the damage until his report reached the C-in-C, used wire, glue and canvas to build a dummy bow. This fooled the C-in-C ,as he passed not 50 yards away in his barge, for 3 days. On the 4th day, the structure was washed away when the flotilla was ordered to sea, but by then Gaimes’ report had reached the flagship.


The end of the year saw K-5 in Chatham, completing a refit. During the refit a large number of officers and crew were relieved. Of the officers, only Gaimes remained. His number one, Lieut Arthur Ashworth was replaced by Lieut Frederick W. F. Cuddeford from K-11. None of the other new officers had any K-boat experience.


Fresh from christmas leave, K-5 joined K-9 at Portsmouth. The two submarines left to rejoin the Atlantic Fleet, again at Tor Bay. K-5 called in at Portland on the way to pick up a spare Captain, Lieut- Commander Reginald Darke. Arriving in Tor Bay, the two K-boats anchored near to K-8, K-15 and K-22 at the edge of a g iant armada. The fleet was departing to Spain the next morning for exercises, but, during the night, a gale blew in and pinned the ships in the bay for the next three days.


On January 20th, the weather moderated and the fleet sailed, seperating into ‘Red’ Force and ‘Blue’ force. At the head of one force, Inconstant disposed her submarines in line formations behind her, K-5 and K-9 on the starboard quarter, K-22, K-15 and K-8 on the port. It was a dark moonless night, with a still heaving sea, and the shaded stern light each boat showed was difficult to see. In K-9 the officer of the watch lost sight of K-5’s stern light. He was about to order an increase of speed when K-5’s stern loomed rapidly into sight and K-9 had to take evasive action. A winking light from K-5’s signalman, “OOW to ditto. Sorry. Lost suction.”


In mid morning the mock battle began. Inconstant made a sighting report and signalled to her submarines to spread out to attack. Over the western horizon the masts of the oppositions force’s cruiser screen could be seen. On K-5 a signalman flagged a course for each submarine, followed by the order, “Dive”. K-5 herself went down first. The opposition cruisers were moving fast and if the submarines were to get in a surprise attack they had to get out of sight fast.


K-9 had trouble getting under. With all tanks flooded she was still showing 10 feet of conning tower. On the Cox’n’s spirit level the bubble was forward. She was still light by the bows. “Flood B” was the captain’s order. B tank was an internal tank of 18 tons capacity. As it filled the depth gauges moved a couple of feet, and then stopped. Still 8 feet of conning tower above the surface! The First Lieutenant vaguely visualised the bow vents as he had left the conning tower. In his mind’s eye they were closed. A quick look through the periscope confirmed his thoughts; both the bow vents were tightly closed. The officer pointed at the man at the control panel and snapped, “Bow vents.” The operating lever was in the open position, but two safety stop valves either side of the lever had been overlooked when K-9 had put to sea. The tanks in the bows of the submarine were full of air. The seaman reached to open the valves but the first lieutenant grabbed his wrist. B tank had to be emptied first. Two minutes later, with B tank empty, the submarine dived perfectly. The first lieutenant silently reflected on what would have happened if the crewman had realised the mistake and silently opened the valves with B tank still full.

Whilst K-9 had been struggling to submerge, K-22 had been struggling to surface. As soon as she submerged she had taken a steep bow down angle. Her Captain, Commander Allan Poland, knew sufficient about K-boats to reverse the engines and blow all tanks at full pressure, putting her out of the battle.


K-5 dived fast, too fast, and immediately took a bow down angle. Gaimes ordered the fore hydroplanes set to “hard a rise”, and to “Blow all tanks” but the long flat foredeck acting as a giant hydroplane, maintained the downward angle. The high pressure air began to hiss into the tanks, but the downward motion continued. The man operating the forward hydroplanes reported, “Forward hydroplanes jammed, Sir”. The external pressure was beginning to distort the hull, and the submarine began to groan under the strain. Gaimes Ordered, “Full ahead” and “stern planes to hard -a-dive”, but that only compounded the problems that were gaining faster then they could be solved. As the depth gauges showed 280 feet, and the creaking K-5 began to adopt an even keel the dome in the control room, which rose into the conning tower and was the pressure hulls weakest point, imploded. The remorseless dark sea poured in like a wall, sweeping Officers and crewmen alike off of their feet before they could blink and flooding the submarine. The lights flicked out and the submarine, completely flooded, tumbled through the stygian darkness to the seabed, 12,000 feet below.


An hour or so later, the other K-boats began to reappear at widely scattered points and to report their position by radio. The cruiser asked each in turn if they had seen K-5. Every answer was no. It was just after midday.


About an hour before dusk the flotilla returned to the area where the K-boats had dived. There, ahead, was a mile square of calmed water, and exactly at the point where K-5 had dived, they slithered into a thick oil slick. In the centre of the slick were two pieces of timber. K-9 picked them up. Their sides were painted red, with consecutive numbers picked out in red. Every K-boat man recognised them. They were the beams from the battery covers in a K-boat. The moveable floorboards in the control room of a K-boat rested on these beams. The white numbers indicated each different cell of the battery. The position of K-5’s loss was Lat 48o 51’ 5’’ N Long. 9o 5’ W, about 120 miles west-sou-west of the Scilly Islands. At first the spare captain, Lieut-Commander Darke, was also presumed to have been lost with the boat, but it was then discovered that he had left K-5 when the fleet was anchored in Tor Bay.


The next morning one of the searching ships found the lid of the torpedo gunners’ mate’s ditty box. That was all that was ever found.


The public were horrified. Rear Admiral (retd) Sydney Hall wrote in the Times,

K class submarines were designed solely for action with the Grand Fleet in the North Sea. They are the largest and fastest submarines in existence, certainly by far the most complicated, and they need an exceptionally well trained crew.

It is not known what rapidity of diving was being demanded by the operation orders, but it seems certain that the first lieutenant, on whom would fall the chief duty of supervision below, was recently appointed, and that many of the crew were also newly joined…..

The accident is deplorable in the loss of so many gallant officers and men, and it is not clear why the K class should be taken for cruises in the Atlantic in the winter. The vessels may with accuracy be described as ‘freak’ submarines, built entirely for the peculiar conditions of the last war. The high surface speed necessitates great length, and the further complication of steam demands large openings for funnels and air intakes to the boiler room. These have always been a source of great anxiety in bad weather or in rapid diving…..

Presumably these vessels were kept in commission in order to perfect the conduct of such submarines in fleet battle, but it appears to be a very questionable policy, since the K class will be obsolete long before such a battle can take place. They were designed solely for the North Sea, and have neither the qualifications nor the sea endurance to accompany a battle fleet under war conditions except in home waters.

The keenness of all submarine officers is well known. It is to be hoped that this has not been overstrained from a lack of understanding of the delicacy of this very special type of submarine, with the result of the vessels’ being employed for work for which they were never intended, and for which they would be highly dangerous if the personnel were not thoroughly trained….

It has always been recognised that owing to their size and complications the K class cannot dive as rapidly as smaller submarines. For work with the fleet this was no disadvantage, since they could expect to get good warning, but a highly trained crew, thoroughly familiar with every detail of the vessel, is required. With such conditions the K boats could dive from twenty knots on the surface in about 4 minutes, but with anything but a perfectly trained crew, any attempt to do this would be highly dangerous in deep water. With water entering the tanks at two hundred tons a minute, the vessel might be trimmed to such an extent that the slightest hitch in getting the compressed air to act could take the vessel too deep for recovery. It will be easily understood that as the vessel now weighs over two and a half thousand tons and has way on her the downward momentum may be considerable. If there is much sea or swell it may be imperative to give her negative buoyancy to get her away from the surface, and though the compressed air will blow one or two tanks rapidly there is often considerable delay in checking the vessel’s downward motion. This is especially the case if the tank or tanks to which the air is admitted is not quite full and the vessel is already deep. The air has first to raise the pressure in the whole of the empty portion of the tank. During this time the water is still entering and rising in pressure, and only when the air pressure exceeds this and commences to drive the water out will buoyancy begin to be gained. Even then it will be an appreciable time before the vessel is checked and then begins to rise….

It will be readily understood that diving a vessel of this size and intricacy is a delicate operation, demanding the complete knowledge of his duty from every member of her crew and with a perfect system of drill and control from the central compartment before rapid diving can be safely undertaken.


Commander Arthur Ashworth, RN (Retd) (and formerly First Lieutenant in K-5)commented in 1959, “I think we realised that we were expected to do things with our K boats after the war that were beyond their capability; instead of being sulky and unwilling about it, there arose rather a ‘devil may care’ attitude of “We’ll do it – or bust.”


The Admiralty never did make a public comment on this disaster other than to announce its regret, but they did order the fitting of high pressure air systems to the forward external tanks of all K boats.

[astraltrader]

A really first-class account Richard. They certainly were a "freak" class of submarine.

[HMS Bergamot]

Thanks, Terry, that is appreciated. I've got a few more to tell yet.

It's the time it takes thats the problem.

regards,

[astraltrader]

I do know exactly what you mean - but please rest assured that they will be appreciated. That last piece you wrote ranks amongst the very best written here.

[Batstiger]

One more pic to add to one of my favourite threads.

HMS 'K5',built by Portsmouth Dockyard,launched 16/12/1916.Sunk,Bay of Biscay,20/1/1921.

HMS 'K5' was one of the K-class submarines that served in the Royal Navy between 1917 and 1921. She was lost with all hands when she sank en route to a mock battle in the Bay of Biscay.

At the end of the war in 1918 K5 was part of the 12th Submarine Flotilla based at Rosyth, along with 6 others of the K class.

The K5 left Torbay on 19 January 1921 with the K8, K10, K15 and K22 for a mock battle in the Bay of Biscay. The submarine was commanded by an experienced officer, Lieutenant-Commander John A Gaimes, DSO, RN, but had a new crew. The other officers on board were Lieutenant F Cuddeford, Engineer-Lieutenant E Bowler, Acting Engineer-Lieutenant G Baker, Lieutenant B Clark and Acting Lieutenant R Middlement. The full complement included 51 other ranks on board.

All 57 hands were lost on 20 January about 120 miles south-west of the Isles of Scilly. She had signalled that she was diving but she did not surface at the end of the exercise. After a battery cover and a sailor's "ditty box" were recovered it was presumed that she had somehow gone past her maximum depth.

On return from her exercises in the Mediterranean in 1922 the HMS Hood and the rest of the fleet dropped wreaths and held a memorial service where the K5 had gone down.

[HMS Bergamot]

Some K boat stories in 'The Admiralty Regrets...." thread in the Royal Navy section.

[Harley]

Everitt writes a good story, but if you look hard enough you'll find plenty of R.N. submariners and other naval officers who don't regard the K-Class as "a suicide club" (a term which is by no means unique to the K-Class). Even though he includes it in his book "The World's Worst Warships", the late popular/technical naval historian Antony Preston didn't damn the type, citing operational drawbacks as well as certain detail flaws in the design - K.26 (which sailed round the world) showed what could have been achieved with a little less haste and better crew training.

It is interesting to note that Preston, by no means an uncritical author, "talk of a 'jinx' on the class should not be exagerrated." He says the losses off May Island "cannot be blamed on design". The tactical use of them can't really be blamed either in the light of what the navy was attempting to achieve with them., using them as an adjunct to the battle fleet, and the only way that was going to be achieved as with anything is with practice.

Simon

[Collind]

Margaret,

My Grandfather was a Leading Stoker on HMS Fearless that was also involved in the Isle of May incident. I to have been looking for information on it, and have not found a great deal. One place is a Polish website.

http://www.op.osw.pl/op/iws/?aid=225&OPS=fd8f7eaccacafd9b60e624f4feff439b.

If you can get it translated it has a lot of information.

Regards,

David Collins

[astraltrader]

When I hook up my other computer I will put on here any others that I have...

Sorry for the delay in doing this Bob - but hopefully a case of better late than never my friend!!!

[Rorqual]

Hi My first post -- I live in Fife Scotland and am also member of the Uk Submariners Association
The K4 and the K17 have now got a memorial sited at Anstruther that we attend each year to lay wreaths and do a small service of rememberance.

K13 that sank in the Gareloch on acceptance trials is also commemorated each year at the Faslane Base and also at Garelochhead cemetery where the fatalities were buried.

Hope it helps

Fred

[astraltrader]

Good to have you aboard Fred and thanks for the information.
Here is a picture of the K13 you mentioned...:)

[Batstiger]

Thank you for that Terry, I have always been fascinated by this class of submarine especially after reading Don Everitt's book.
I have seen them all before but haven't got them at this size.
I like the one alongside accompanied by the fleet destroyer HMS Swift. Those funnels are something else don't you think?

Bob.

Moderator Note: Original information posted regarding HMS Swift moved to new thread here:
http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9089

[astraltrader]

Also a few more K-class submarines...

[Chief Willie]

Very interesting account -- Would you by chance have any stories on the K-3 other than the CO LCDR Shove (a relative of mine) was "a man who kept a tame white rat in the pocket of his monkey jacket"

[TCC]

K-5 dived fast, too fast, and immediately took a bow down angle. Gaimes ordered the fore hydroplanes set to “hard a rise”, and to “Blow all tanks” but the long flat foredeck acting as a giant hydroplane, maintained the downward angle. The high pressure air began to hiss into the tanks, but the downward motion continued. The man operating the forward hydroplanes reported, “Forward hydroplanes jammed, Sir”. The external pressure was beginning to distort the hull, and the submarine began to groan under the strain. Gaimes Ordered, “Full ahead” and “stern planes to hard -a-dive”, but that only compounded the problems that were gaining faster then they could be solved. As the depth gauges showed 280 feet, and the creaking K-5 began to adopt an even keel the dome in the control room, which rose into the conning tower and was the pressure hulls weakest point, imploded. The remorseless dark sea poured in like a wall, sweeping Officers and crewmen alike off of their feet before they could blink and flooding the submarine. The lights flicked out and the submarine, completely flooded, tumbled through the stygian darkness to the seabed, 12,000 feet below.

How did/does the author know this? If everyone was lost in her, how can he ce certain that the forward hydroplane operator reported “Forward hydroplanes jammed, Sir”?



Interesting thread.
cheers

[Ednamay]

Does anyone have any information about a sub which sank in 1917? I believe several (if not all) crew were rescued, but only after an extended period of restricted / unsafe air supply. My uncle was a casualty, with lung damage, which eventually led to tuberculosis. He was invalided out and spent about twenty years needing intermittent treatment and permanent care.

Ednamay

[Dreadnought]

Does anyone have any information about a sub which sank in 1917? I believe several (if not all) crew were rescued, but only after an extended period of restricted / unsafe air supply. My uncle was a casualty, with lung damage, which eventually led to tuberculosis. He was invalided out and spent about twenty years needing intermittent treatment and permanent care.

Ednamay
Hi there,

I would imagine this to have been the K13 of the ill-fated K Class submarines, in January 1917. I haven't checked, but I expect there may be other threads relating to this elsewhere in this forum. However, this is basically what happened.

K-13 was carrying out her final acceptance trials prior to the Admiralty officially taking her over from her Clydeside builders, Fairfields. She had just covered the measured mile at a record 23 knots to gain the honour of the world's fastest submarine.

As she glided slowly down to the diving area in Gareloch she was carrying not only her regular crew of 53 officers and men but also 14 directors and employees of Fairfields, 13 other civilians, and two Royal Navy submarine officers acting as observers to gain K-boat experience. When she arrived at the loch she picked up two more civilian experts.

As she dived she refused to trim level at 20 feet and continued plunging toward the bottom. The boiler room started to flood and the watertight door to the stern section was promptly closed and locked. It was a drastic remedy, but if the submarine was to be saved there was no alternative even though it meant certain death for the men trapped in the compartments aft of the engine room bulkhead. The ballast tanks were blown, but K-13 showed no desire to surface, and in a desperate effort to avoid disaster Lt. Cdr. Herbert dropped the forward 10-ton keel. Even this failed to stop the submarine's dive and moments later her stern settled on the bottom of the loch in 50 feet of water. To make matters worse, the main switchboard then caught fire and consumed valuable oxygen before the fire was put out.

Thirty-one of the men aboard were already dead — trapped and drowned in the flooded stern section. Only one watertight door separated the remaining survivors from a similar death. Professor Percy Hillhouse, the naval architect who had embarked at the loch shortly before the fatal dive, was busy calculating how much air was left and how long it would last, and it was not an encouraging answer — only eight hours at most.

There was confusion at the surface. Although the escorting tug wirelessed an urgent message reporting a probable disaster within an hour of K-13's disappearance, it was six hours before a gunboat and two salvage tugs left the Clyde. Gossamer arrived at midnight with a diving suit, but no diver. When one was finally found the suit proved to have perished with age and nearly drowned its occupant. Thrush arrived on the scene shortly afterwards but she had neither suit nor diver. Finally however, one of Fairfield's civilian divers went down and, groping his way along the sunken hull, he made contact with the trapped men by tapping Morse messages on the hull.

Aware that time was running out Lt. Cdr. Herbert decided to send one of the officer passengers, Captain Goodhart, D.S.O., who was captain of the note yet completed K-14, to the surface by flooding the conning-tower and blowing him upwards in a bubble of compressed air. The two men climbed into the conning-tower, closed the lower hatch, and opened the valves so that the compartment slowly flooded and compressed the air inside it. When the water level reached their waists K-13's skipper released the submarine’s own high pressure air and clung to the steel supports while Cpt Goodhart pulled the clips and opened the upper hatch. The men standing on Thrush's deck saw a confused upheaval of water as the air rushed to the surface and Lt. Cdr. Herbert's head suddenly bobbed into sight. He was dragged aboard the tug. But Cpt. Goodhart never made it. Caught up in the rush of escaping air, he was hurled against the roof of the bridge, knocked unconscious, and drowned.

The trapped men below were becoming desperate for air and the priority now was to get some to them. High pressure hoses were taken down but the divers were unable to find any way of connecting them to K-13's hull. It was six o'clock the following evening — long past Prof. Hillhouse's deadline — before the pipes were secured. Then it was found that no air was getting through. More discussions followed and, while the experts argued and wrangled over the problem, the divers picked up more Morse signals from the trapped men: “Give us air. Give us air.”

By midnight the fault was traced to an ice blockage in the line itself and within minutes fresh pure air was being pumped into the poisoned hull to revive the half dead survivors. A further tube was used to send food down, and by 6.30 a.m. voice communication had been established.

A steel wire was next latched under K-13's hull and slowly, creaking with strain, the forward end of the submarine was lifted until the bows were standing clear of the surface.

Finally, after many more hours a hole was cut in the bows with an oxy-acetylene torch and, just after 3 p.m., 57 hours after K13 had started her fatal dive beneath the surface of Gareloch, the 46 survivors were helped through the escape hole .

The submarine was finally salvaged on March 15, repaired, and re-commissioned as K-22. She was eventually sold for scrap in December 1926 in Sunderland.

It must have been a terrible experience for your uncle, and he must have been extremely brave. How tragic he had to endure all those years of illness.

Clive

(Hope it was this submarine ...!!)

[Dreadnought]

Submarine K5

Readers of this thread all, I am sure, have sufficient knowledge about the ‘Kalamity K’s’ such that it is unnecessary for me to go into much detail about this catastrophic phase of British submarine development.

The then short sighted attitude of the Grand Fleet traditionalists towards adapting to modern submarine warfare, and the misconception that a “submersible destroyer” was the answer to underwater supremacy, resulted in an unforgivable and unnecessary loss of lives.

The loss of the K5 was one of the worst submarine disasters in peace times.

She left Torbay on 19th January 1921 with the K8, K15, K10 and K22 for a mock battle in the Bay of Biscay. On 20th January, when 120 miles south west of the Scilly Isles, she signaled her intention to dive. She never surfaced. All fifty seven officers and men were killed. All that was recovered was a battery cover and a sailor’s ditty box.

There were, and probably still are, numerous theories about her disappearance. Rear Admiral S.S Hall, who was in charge of the submarine service during the war, gave his theory in the ‘ Times’ days after the disaster.

“It may be taken as certain that the loss of the vessel was due to some delay in the checking the downward momentum gained by the vessel being over-trimmed in diving, either by admitting compressed air too slowly into too many tanks at one time, to tanks only partially full, or to a sea connection being closed prematurely”

The Admiral asserts that the water was so deep that the submarine would inevitably be crushed, and it would be impossible to regain control, owing to the entry of water. This, also, would prevent the use of the underwater signal plant. He says that The K-Class was designed solely for the North Sea and was not fitted to endure the open sea. He goes on to say,

“These submarines are the largest and most complicated craft of that type in existence and need exceptionally well trained crews, whereas many of the crew of the K5, including the Lieutenant on whom the duty of supervision would fall, had newly joined the vessel”.

Just about sums up the whole saga regarding the history of these craft as I understand it – bad concept and cumbersome design. Therefore, highly trained crews were required, particularly in the complex preparation for diving, and then, in controlling the unpredictable dive process itself.

How brave for any volunteer to join the “Suicide Club”

Clive

Two postcards from my personal collection, and a photograph that shows K5 in dry dock. Does anybody recognise this dry dock ... is it Chatham? K5 had a refit there in 1920, having not long before had another diving mishap, burying her bows in the muddy bottom of the Firth of Forth.

[Dreadnought]

No worries mate i was getting a tad confused with all this bunting flapping around, it was beginging to look like the fleet review with all thise flags and pennants blowing in the breeze.
Regards
Dave
Bunting gone now ... so thought I would just show this one of K26 from an original news photograph I have.

Photograph was taken upon it's return from it's endurance test in 1926, when it covered a greater distance than any submarine by any other nation.

Clive

[Polycell]

Just to put some meat on what Batstiger has already said:
K1 The Light-cruiser HMS Blonde was heading K1, K3, K4 and K7 in line ahead off the Danish coast when she was forced to turn sharply to port to avoid three cruisers, that crossed her bows from starboard to port and collided ith K4. The abrupt change of course took the submarines by surprise and K1 and K4 collided. K1 had lost way due to salt-water, instead of fuel, coming through the sprayers and extinguishing the boilers. K3 passed close on the port side. K4, following K3, suddenly observed the red light of K1, and, although taking avoiding action, struck K1 a glancing blow abreast the conning tower. Water poured into the control room. Within minutes, chlorine gas was being released from the batteries. Blonde was signalled that K1 was sinking, and the cruiser closed, lowering two cutters. The rescue boats made five trips and transferred all 56 members of the crew to Blonde. A discussion was then held as to whether K1 could be saved, and it was decided to sink her.
K2 Scrapped July 1926.
K3 Scrapped October 1921.
K4 On 31 January 1918 HMS K4 left harbour bound for a North Sea exercise. In what became known as the Battle of May Island a number of submarines were lost. Several collisions occurred, including K6 colliding with K4. So great was the collision that K4 was cut almost in two and sank immediately with the loss of all onboard.
K5 On 20 January 1921 HMS K5 sailed from Torbay as part of a fleet bound for Spain, which included the Cruiser Inconstant and Submarines K8, K9, K15 and K22. It was decided to conduct a mock battle in the Bay of Biscay and the vessels split up to take their positions. A signal was received from K5 that she was diving, but she failed to reappear at the end of the exercise. An hour before dusk a battery cover from a K boat was recovered and the next morning a sailor’s ditty box was found - the last trace of K5. It is believed an accident caused K5 to exceed her maximum diving depth
K6 Scrapped in July 1926.
K7 Came to the rescue of the crew of K17 in 1918. Scrapped in September 1921.
K8 Scrapped October 1923.
K9 Scrapped in July 1926.
K10 Scrapped in November 1921.
K11 Scrapped in November 1921.
K12 Scrapped in July 1926.
K13 Just after noon on 29 January 1917, HMS K13, on trials in the Gareloch, signalled to nearby HMS E50 her intention to dive. As the submarine submerged the engine room began to flood. The submarine became uncontrollable and came to rest on the bottom with the engine room and after torpedo room flooded. The crew of E50 witnessing K13’s rapid dive closed in on the area discovering traces of oil and escaping air breaking the surface. The first rescue vessel arrived around midnight. Divers were sent down to inspect the submarine and just after daybreak on the 30 morse signals were exchanged between the divers and the trapped crew. At 1700 an airline was successfully connected, empty air bottles recharged and ballast tanks blown. With the aid of a hawser slung under her bows K13 was brought to within 8 feet of the surface. By midday of the 31 K13’s bow had been raised ten feet above the water. By 2100 the pressure hull had been breached using oxy-acetylene cutting equipment the survivors being transferred to safety. K13 was finally raised on 15 March, refitted and returned to service as HMS K22.
K14 Scrapped in December 1926.
K15 On the 25 June 1921 K15 was moored alongside the light cruiser HMS Canterbury, in the tidal basin at Portsmouth. Most of the crew were on leave when a watch keeper discovered that the submarine was sinking, with the stern already awash. The watch were quickly roused and scrambled aboard the Canterbury. The submarine slowly submerged amid streams of bubbles. The accident was caused by hydraulic oil expanding in the hot weather and contracting as the temperature dropped causing a loss of hydraulic pressure and causing vents to open.
K16 Scrapped in August 1924.
K17 Whilst taking part in exercises off May Island, K17 was astern of HMS Courageous when the latter changed course to avoid two trawlers, which were spotted ahead. K17 turned but K22 and K14 were involved in a collision. Meanwhile HMS Fearless was steaming at 21 knots towards the area oblivious of the accident. Suddenly the Fearless appeared over the horizon and ploughed into K17, water gushed into the boat through the pierced pressure hull. The order to abandon ship was quickly given. Within 8 minutes K17 had disappeared. The survivors were now in the water and the other submarines attempted to pick them up. Sadly the destroyers were unaware of the location of the accident and ploughed through the survivors.
K22 Cancelled
K23 Cancelled
K24 Cancelled
K25 Cancelled
K26 Broken Up March 1931
K27 Cancelled
K28 Cancelled

[dennis a feary]

Here is a Commemorative Envelope to the loss of H M Submarine K.17.
it was No. 233 of 246 Covers Issued.
Produced by R N Marriott.

Sign by member of the crew of K.17.

Sadsac

[Polycell]

Whats a commerative envelope Denis?
Fred

[dennis a feary]

Apologies FRED, it seems the pic never came out - trying again.

Got it this time. Hope it is self explanitory. Nice - what !!!

Sadsac

[Dreadnought]

Submarine K2

HMS K2 was one of five K-Class submarines to built at HM Dockyard Portsmouth; the others being K1,K5, K6, and K7. K1 and K2 were built alongside each other.

K2 was a Group 1 submarine of this Class. She was laid down on the 13th November 1915, launched on the 14th October 1916, and completed on the 1st February 1917.

During her diving trials in the January of 1917 she suffered an onboard explosion. The insulation had broken down in her electric motors, and as the fuse blew, sheet of flame set fire to some planks and oily waste that had been left behind by dockyard workers. The submarine was not equipped with fire extinguishers and had to surface where the crew managed to put out the fire by passing buckets of sea water passed through the hatch to the engine room.

At the end of the same month, K2 started her acceptance trials in choppy seas and freezing temperatures. Not long after leaving harbour, water began splashing into the casings below the funnels, and into the boiler room through the mushroom shaped ventilators. When the signal to was given to dive, the vents were opened to flood the main ballast tanks, and in the engine room, the lever was thrown to close the boiler-room vents.. However, the signal lamps did not light up, and the order was give to surface immediately. When the vents were subsequently examined, it was concluded that low temperature of the sea water had partially solidified the hydraulic oil in the vent actuating cylinders. This incident prompted instructions to be issued to all K-Boats to ensure that only low temperature hydraulic oil should be used.

K2 was commissioned to the 12th Submarine Flotilla, and in June 1917, took part in a concerted submarine sweep in the North Sea with destroyers of the Grand Fleet. On one morning during this operation, the Fair Isle lighthouse keepers reported that K2 had struck a mine and had sunk with all hands. However, two days later K2 entered harbour, to the relief of the next of kin who had been mis-informed of their loss. It came to light that K2 was test firing her 4-inch gun just before beginning diving patrols. From a safe range, the gun was fired at the lighthouse, the shell exploding on the water. It then immediately dived. The lighthouse keepers observing this, were convinced K2 had hit a mine and then sunk beneath the waves.

In December 1920 the Admiralty released news that K2, along with K10 and K16 were to be paid off. However, after the loss of K5 at Torquay in January 1921, K2 was reprieved from the scrapheap, and she joined the 1st Flotilla to replace the lost submarine.

Early one morning in late 1923, K2 was leaving Portland Harbour when she collided with K12, carving a huge hole in her forward casing. During the collision, the stem of K2 was bent. Luckily for both boats, damage was superficial, and they soon returned to service.

K2 was eventually sold for scrap to Cashmore , Newport on the 13th July 1926.

Two pictures of K2 previously posted in the RN Submarines 1900-1925 Gallery thread: http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1423

http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=4833&d=1207230374 (http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=4833&d=1207230374)

http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=80348&d=1276626310 (http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=80348&d=1276626310)

K2_1: Photograph of K2, not as good as the others but shots of K2 are rare, so worth posting for it's historical value; date and location unknown.

Original source of photograph not determined. No evidence of copyright restrictions

[tinduck]

Two more views of K2, which I hope haven’t been posted previously, the first showing the original bow, with which the early members of the class were built, before they were modified with the bulbous bow for better seakeeping and buoyancy forward.

Dave

[Dreadnought]

Great photos Dave ... they just don't seem to be that common, so it is good to see them.

As you say, the bulbous bow, known as "Swan Bows" were fitted to try and reduce the tendency of the boats to pitch badly whilst on the surface in heavy seas. The program of modifications started in 1917 with K6 being the first, fitted by Sawn Hunter. I cannot find definitive records of which boats actually ended up being modified. The wreck of K4 (sunk at the Battle of May Island, 31st January 1918, after the collision with K17) aparently does not show evidence of the a swan bow being fitted. K9 was fitted with hers at Chatham. K5 had them fitted.

Looking through available photographs it seems that many of boats display them at some time, but as to those that didn't. I am not absolutely sure. Will do some further investigation ... unless anybody knows for a fact.

[tinduck]

Looking through available photographs it seems that many of boats display them at some time, but as to those that didn't. I am not absolutely sure. Will do some further investigation ... unless anybody knows for a fact.

Yes it's not clear to me either, at least none of my sources say anything other than that the modifications were made. The completion dates would suggest that K1 to K14 and K17 were completed without the swan bow, as these boats were all completed by May 1917. K15 and K16 did not complete until April-May 1918 suggesting they were built with the swan bow?

I have photos of K2, K3, K4, K5, K6, K13 & K14 with the original bow and K2, K5, K6, K7, K8, K9, K10, K11, K12, K22 [ex13], K14, K15 & K16 with the swan bow. I'll happily post any of these if you want them.

As an aside, do you have a photo of K1, only I've never seen any images of this boat

Rgds

Dave

[Dreadnought]

Hi Dave,

The only photograph of K1 I have ever been able to find is the one attached. I guess becasue she wasn't around for very long might explain. Launched 14th November 1916 and lost a year later on 18th November 1917. See Post #27.

Photograph shpws the keel of K1 being laid by Miss A.W. Weymouth at Portsmouth dockyard on the 6th October 1915.

Original source of this photo unknown, although it is held by the Royal Navy Submarine Museum, Gosport.

This partucular copy in my personal collection. No copyright restrictions evident.

[Dreadnought]

NOTE:
Due to the fact there the K-Class submarine evokes much interest, I have merged all the existing descriptive threads/posts to this newly titled thread. This includes the recent posts regarding the "swan bows" in the photo gallery thread.

The original photographs of K-boats in the photo gallery thread however, remain:

http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1423

Those with an interest in the ensuing M-Class Submarines can read about them in this thread:

http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6308

[BALTICSUBS]

K6 at Scapa 4th of December 1917 doing 20 knots.

[Dreadnought]

Great photograph Balticsubs, thanks.

Submarine K6

K6 was laid down on the 8th of November 1915 at HM Dockyard at Devonport. She was launched on the 31st May 1916 and commissioned in May 1917. She was the first of the K’s to be fitted with the swan shaped bow, and to have her funnels lengthened to try and reduce the danger of the boilers being flooded.

During her first submerged trial in North Dockyard at Devonport, with many dockyard workers and Navy personnel on board, K6 refused to surface. One of the engine fitters traced the fault to the compressed air system and effected a temporary repair, allowing the submarine to rise to the surface after an anxious two hours. The fitter was subsequently awarded the OBE for his courage and devotion to duty, even though the incident itself was hushed up.

It was during Beatty’s cruiser deployment exercise EC1 on the 31st January 1918, later to become known as “The Battle of May Island”, that K6, amidst all the confusion that unfolded, sliced through her sister submarine K4, sinking her with the loss of 55 men. See http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10125 (http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10125)

K6 was sold on the 13th July 1926 and scrapped by Cashmore, Newport.

Couple more shots of K6


Original source of photographs not determined. No copyright restrictions evident

[BALTICSUBS]

Hi Clive,

here are 2 more of K6 on the same day at Scapa 4/12/1917. K3 was out with her as well as they took a heap of photos of her on the same day as well.

[BALTICSUBS]

K26 as completed.

[Batstiger]

A couple more pictures of the "K" class to add to the collection.

Bob.

[Dreadnought]

Submarines K12 & K14

K12 was a Group I boat of this Class and was built by Armstrong Whitworth on the Tyne. Laid down on the 1st of October 1915, she was launched on the 23rd of February 1917, and commissioned on the 1st of August the same year.

K14 was built by Fairfields, Govan in Scotland, and was laid down on the 1st of November 1915. She was launched on the 8th of February 1917, and completed on the 22nd of May the same year.

Both boats formed part of the 13th Submarine, first at Scapa Flow, and then at Rosyth, where they both took part in Operation EC1, known as the Battle of May Island, on the 31st of January 1918. K12 survived the operation virtually unscathed. K14 was rammed by K22, and although she was almost sunk, was able to be reapired. Two men were lost in the incident.

For a full account of the Battle of May Island, click on the following Forum thread link:

http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10125 (http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10125)

Late in 1923 (dates vary), K2 collided with K12 whilst leaving Portland Harbour early one morning, carving a huge hole in the forward casing and bending her own stem. The damage was however superficial and both boats were soon returned to service.

In 1919 (?) K14 suffered a boiler explosion forcing open the mushroom ventilators whilst she was diving. As a result, the boiler room flooded, and only swift action prevented her loss and she was brought safely to the surface. After re-fitting, she suffered another explosion and a fire in her batteries.

K12 was sold on the 23rd of July 1926 to the Alloa Shipbreaking Company, Charleston, for breaking up.

K14 was sold in December 1926 (dates vary) and broken up by the Granton Ship Breaking Company.


K12K14_1: No details. Original source of picture not determined. No copyright restrictions evident

K12_1: Possibly in the East Mediterranean? Date unknown. Postcard from my personal collection.

K14_1: Crew of K14. No Details. Original source of picture not determined. No copyright restrictions evident
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[Scot at Sea]

The wrecks of K-4 and K-17 have been found by a survey team scanning the seabed in the forth in advance of a wind turbine project.

Article (http://www.eastlothiancourier.com/news/roundup/articles/2011/08/11/416048-images-pinpoint-ww1-sub-wrecks-/)

Cheers,
Derek.

[Dreadnought]

Thanks for that Derek. Good to know that they will remain protected.

[peter schofield]

K5 - The Lost Commander
The captain of the sunken submarine Lt Commander John Austin Gaimes DSO was one of the most experienced of British submarine commanders. Only four or five officers qualified in underwater craft were senior to him on the list of Lt.-Commanders. He volunteered for the branch in 1908 while still a sub-lieutenant and was appointed for training on 1 January 1909 following a year as second-in-command of the destroyer Syren in the channel fleet. After serving in submarines of the C-Type at the Nore he was appointed on 5 October 1911 in command of A9 at Devonport from which he was transferred a year later to B3. In March 1913 he went to China as captain of C37 stationed at Hong Kong and remained there almost four years including the first part of the war. From the 10 April 1917 he commanded a submarine in the Harwich flotilla and in June 1918 was awarded the DSO for his war service. After the Armistice he commanded submarines attached to the depot ship Dolphin at Portsmouth and in November 1919 was appointed to the cruiser Inconstant for duty with the steam-driven vessels of the K Type in the First Flotilla. On 1 April 1920 he obtained command of K5.

Lt-commander Gaimes was 33 years old and unmarried, and was the only so of the late Mr. Henry Austing Gaimes and of Mrs Gaimes Tonbridge. He was educated at Tonbridge School and posted to the Britannia in 1901. To his credit must be placed the location of the secret passage to Heligoland. He found a buoyed channel leading up to Heligoland, followed the line of buoys and eventually laid a minefield almost in the anti-submarine gate of the boom near the island. His submarine was on the surface while the mines were being laid and barely 200 yards away a German patrol boat was drifting about and by singing of the crew was plainly heard. When the U-boats left Germany on their last voyage to our coast in December 1918 Lt-commander Gaimes piloted one of them to its anchorage. He found that the Germans had hauled down the British ensign, but by his command was quickly run up again Lt-Commander Gaimes was at work on the preparation on a volume dealing with the work of submarines during the war.

[peter schofield]

K5 - The Officers
Lt FWF Cuddeford the second-in-command was promoted on 15 May 1916 while serving in the cruiser Carnavon to which he was appointed in July 1914. He joined the submarine service in November 1917 and was attached to the Dolphin depot ship at Portsmouth for submarine duties at the time of the armistice. He had only been transferred to K5 for a little over a month from K11 in which he had been serving since 1919.

Lt BJ Clarke was also appointed to K5 in December 1920 after having been attached to the Portsmouth depot since July. He was promoted on 1 August 1917 after two years as mate being one of the officers promoted from the lower deck for meritorious service and examinations. At that date he had been a year in the battleship Resolution in the Grand Fleet. In January 1918 he became second-in-command of the destroyer Porpoise and it was in September of that year that he went in for the submarine course.

Engineer-Lt. EJ Bowles had served in K5 since 27 October 1919 and had attained his present rank in May 1910. He too was promoted from the lower deck through the grade of mate (E) and has been in the submarine branch since August 1918.

Acting Engineer GW Baker was promoted to the rank on 1 July 1920 and was appointed to the Pandora for duties in submarines last month

Acting Lt RJM Middlemist who was promoted last May had only recently joined K5. He was appointed to Dolphin at Portsmouth for submarine duty on 18 December 1920. Robert James Menteith Middlemist was the only child of the late Captain James Menteith Middlemist, Seaforth Highlanders, Deputy Inspector of the Gold Coast Constabulary, by Amelia youngest daughter of the late Rev William Courtenay Clack. Born in 1900 he entered the Royal Navy in the early years of the war. He was a most promising young officer and universally popular. His father died at Kumasi while attempting to relieve the garrison there in 1900.

[peter schofield]

The Times, Friday, Feb 04, 1921, The K5's Last Dive - Cause of Loss a Mystery
The Secretary of the Admiralty announces that full inquiry has been made into the circumstances of the loss of the HM submarine K5 on 20 January with the following result:
At the time of the accident the submarines attached to the Atlantic Fleet including K5 were practising an attack on capital ships of the Fleet. It is established that K5 dived at 1130 at a normal angle and without difficulty. She was seen on the surface again at 1144 and dived again at once. She was never seen again. There was at the time no reason to suppose that K5 was in difficulties or that an accident had occurred. Shortly after 1400 she was called but did not answer her call sign. Search was actually instituted by HMS Inconstant and the other submarines of the K class. At 1742 at approximately 1.5 miles from the diving position a large patch of oil and some wreckage were discovered. The wreckage was identified as belonging to K5. Destroyers were sent by the Commander-in-Chief to assist the search and HMS Inconstant and the destroyers remained in this position all night. No bodies were recovered.
The actual cause of the loss of the submarine K5 cannot be ascertained in the absence of any survivors and no blame can be attributed to the any one in the matter. It is established from the evidence that she was not sunk by collision with any other vessel. The wreckage picked up furnishes no evidence as to the cause of the accident which remains a matter of conjecture. Some loss of trim or of control may have occurred while submerged which caused the vessel to reach a depth at which the external pressure would become too great and destruction would quickly follow.
The great size of the K submarines naturally makes their management when diving more difficult than in the case of smaller submarines. This is one of the chief technical problems that have to be solved in increasing the size of submarines.
K Class submarines some of which have been in commission more than four years have frequently dived in deep water and have been operated safely during the war. The evidence of the CO’s of the other submarines in company with K5 on this occasion indicates that there was nothing in the weather conditions to make diving of an unusual risk.
The special instructions and standing orders under which the exercise was being conducted are clear and provide as far as possible for all contingencies. K5 had undergone an ordinary periodical refit in December 1920 and had since exercised both afloat and submerged. Her CO had expressed himself satisfied with the vessel and the training of the crew.

[peter schofield]

K5 Crew 'A to D'
Aburrow, Cecil Frederick John, AB, J4284 (Po)
Andrews, Herbert Graham, Petty Officer, J5147 (Po)
Backhouse, Albert Edward, Stoker First Class, K21000 (Ch)
Beaumont, George, Langwell CERA 2nd Class, 272157 (Po)
Burns, John, Stoker 1st Class, K170609 (Po)
Butland, Richard William Henry, Officers Steward 3rd Class. L9741 (Po)
Charman, William James, Leading Stoker, K3799 (Po)
Clarke, Cecil Frederick, AB J32900 (Ch)
Clowes John Henry Thomas, AB, J25668 (Po)
Cornish, Percy William, AB, J11540 (Ch)
Cox, John William, Telegraphist, J49821 (Po)
Donovan, Michael, AB J18322 (Po)

[peter schofield]

K5 Crew E to L
Edmonds, Charles, Leading Seaman J2996 (Ch)
Ellis, Horace Alfred, Stoker 1st Class SS124701 (Ch)
Evans, John Horace, AB J14734 (Dev)
French, Alfred Frederick, Petty Officer 214229 (Po)
George, Walter, AB J17015 (Po)
Gillett, Victor Allen, AB J24980 (Po)
Hester, William James, ERA 3rd Class M3510 (Po)
Hicklin, William Osborne, Leading Stoker K12308 (Ch)
Hutchence, Harry, Stoker1st Class K22154 (Po)
Inight, Walter, Leading Seaman J10950 (Po) possibly Night??
Kendall, John Gilmour, Stoker 1st Class K24052 (Ch)
Lampard, Thomas Frederick, Leading Seaman J12698 (Ch)
Lashmar ???, Betram Arthur, ERA 2nd Class M4306 (Po)
Lawrence, James Gordon, AB J26873 (Ch)
Lawrence, Stanfield, Stoker First Class K24155 (Po)

[peter schofield]

K5 Crew M to R
MacGregor, Robert James Russell, Stoker 1st Class K19376 (Po)
Male, Bert Edward, Chief Stoker, 302183 (Po)
Mansfield, Richard Albert, AB J2617 (Ch)
Metcalfe, Fred, AB SS8401 (Po)
Mould, William, Petty Officer J7392 (Po)
Page, Alfred George, Stoker Petty Officer 229695 (Po)
Parr, Frederick, Stoker 1st Class, K20815 (Po)
Parry, James Frederick, Stoker 1st Class, K17768 (Po)
Pollard, George, ERA 3rd Class, M10901 (Dev)
Purkis, Frederick Walter, Stoker 1st Class, K19579 (Ch)
Raggett, Alfred David, Stoker 1st Class, K26671 (Po)
Riley, Herbert, ERA, 2nd Class, M4194 (Ch)

[Nigel999]

Here's a photo of a memorial service for the K5 crew , held aboard RAMILLIES.

I have Allied Victory medal awarded to a sailor named Tanner, for his service in WW1 . He was one of those lost in K5

Cheers, Nigel

P/S I do not ever recall seeing memorial type postcards for this disaster...I have and have seen cards for the other inter war sub disasters, but not this one. They usually have a small photo of the boat surrounded by the names of the crew.

[peter schofield]

K5 Crew S to W
Seymour, George, Stoker 1st Class, K24204 (Ch)
Sheppard, William Cyril, Petty Officer J5572 (Po)
Smith, Frederick John, Stoker Petty Officer 299134 (Po)
Smith, William Balfour, Stoker 1st Class K19915 (Po)
Smith, William Carrington, AB J6291 (Ch)
Tanner, William James, Signalman J21454 (Po)
Ward, Horace William, AB SS 8464
West, Lewis Herbert, Stoker 1st Class K20632 (Po)
Wiltshire, Richard, Signalman J31907 (Dev)
Wooton, William, Stoker Petty Officer K2065 (Ch)

[Rob Hoole]

Not that many years ago, I used to listen to a friend's grandfather, Walter Valet, speak of his experiences as a stoker in K-boats and other submarines during the Great War and afterwards. I have just stumbled on this gem in the wonderful Naval Review archives (http://www.naval-review.co.uk/archive.asp) which may be of interest to adherents of this thread:

The Naval Review Vol XXXI No. 2 (May 1943) pp 145-147 (http://www.naval-review.co.uk/issues/1943-2.pdf#Page=56&View=Fit)

A SUB-MARINER REMEMBERS

K-BOATS

"I YIELD to no man in my admiration of engineers," observed Eeyore Smith, "for, without them there would be none of the amenities of life (and that reminds me to ask you to be more liberal with your steam on the baths, Chief) but I think that their attitude towards the internal combustion engine has always been tinged with conservatism.

"To the average 'plumber' the word engine is synonymous with steam. I remember as a midshipman once talking to a stoker who was feeling particularly proud of a set of picket-boat engines. 'Ah,' he said, 'if only George Washington could see this little lot!' and when I queried his remark he told me 'that that was the bloke wot invented steam.' So you see that even the humbler members of the profession associate the stuff with truth and possibly progress as well.

"Speaking as one who has suffered to the full from the wiles and weaknesses of the Diesel engine, I do feel that if it had not been looked on as the poor relation of all propelling machinery for a great many years we in submarines would not have passed through that strangely romantic period of the steam submarine.

"Just as it used to be said that no sub-mariner could truly claim to be fully fledged until he experienced the worst that Mr. Shanks could do to him, so it can be asserted that those who have not served in K-boats missed an experience, unique (let us trust) in the annals of submarine history.

"It is not for me to cast aspersions on the wisdom of Those who decided to fit submarines with chimneys; no doubt there were excellent reasons; perhaps it was a little matter of rivalry with our gallant Allies, the French, who ran to a tasty line in kettle-fitted submersibles (Plongez! Plongez! Vite! pour la gloire de France); as has been suggested, perhaps it was the result of confusion in the drawing office whereby a destroyer was grafted on to a submarine - after all, there were such things as 'P' boats. It is sufficient to quote the Chinese proverb that a State of War is Conducive to imaginative Effort. It may, however, be of interest to the present generation if I touch on some aspects of life in the K-boats in the years succeeding the Armistice; and here is a brief description of those weird vessels. Over three hundred feet in length, herring-gutted so that their period of roll was the fastest ever, they took five minutes to submerge if it was a good day and fifteen if the engineer officer had been careless about his feed water. Once underwater with no adverse reports coming from the boiler-room as to the effacacy of the funnel and intake covers, the trimming of such unwieldy craft was fraught with considerable interest. Visitors to the Firth of Forth (if there were such people who voluntarily went there) in the early twenties, would as a daily occurrence have observed parts of K-boat projecting above water. Sometimes it would be the stem with two propellers idly whizzing and sometimes a large sinister-looking bow could be seen projecting above the surface of the water like a basking whale. There were, of course, other occasions when one was thankful for the proximity of the sea bed; but it is better not to dwell on that point.

"The essential difference between the K-boat Flotilla and the ordinary submarine flotilla was that the former were self contained; that is to say that on return to harbour the crew continued to live on board and not to seek relaxation and comfort in some such handsomely furnished depot as has been described on another occasion; and, of course, the officers did likewise. There was little in this to complain of from the point of view of the crew, for they were spared many irksome routine matters and petty chores; but to the officers, who were expected to appear in a variety of costumes ranging from football togs to mess dress, there were certain disadvantages. There was, too, the question of one's proximity to the captain. The K.R. and A.I. in their wisdom have ordained that for the sake of discipline and moral the captain should as far as possible keep himself apart from his officers. In K-boats this was interpreted by the erection of a matchboard partition which screened off a substantial portion of the wardroom and behind which the captain was said to be in his cabin. The fact that he could hear everything just as well from behind his cribbed confines as if he were sitting in the mess was at times a trifle hedging for those junior officers who like to express themselves freely in their hours of ease. There was another member of the wardroom mess who was even more unpopular: it was a large air-compressor. When it was running speech, though possible, was a waste of time; and it also had the unpleasant habit of spattering the surroundings with fine drops of the very best mineral oil.

"I need hardly say that this air-compressor was only used when its opposite number in the after-compartment fell sick, and when this was the case the engineer officer felt that he was persona non grata with his captain and messmates. The question of the stowage of our clothing was as neatly solved, in my case, as it was ever likely to be by a truly miraculous drawer which, like an inverted widow's-cruse, never entirely filled. It was the simultaneous discovery of an assortment of garments in the bottle-well together with the fact that the drawer was without a back to it that did much to cause the eternal sourness of my present outlook.

"Another interesting fitment was a pipe to the upper deck which was known as the 'six-inch hand-up.' Its origin was traced to the early design of the K-boats, when an additional gun was mounted on the upper deck at a position which gave it 30 inches of free-board (the fact that the upper deck was only tenable when the sea was as calm as the Serpentine had escaped the notice of the designer; but 'What the Hell, Brother,' as our American Allies have been heard to remark). The existence of this hole in the roof was of great benefit, for a small intake fan was fitted to it and gave good supplies of fresh air to the captain's cabin. On one occasion it gave other service; that was when a cheerful-minded officer poured a sack of potatoes down the ventilating cowl with the result that the captain's bunk was filled with 'finely-divided particles of potato which we call chips.'

"You will have observed, my dear Chief, that the cramped physical conditions in the Flotilla did not affect the high spirits of the officers. They used to meet onboard the good ship Remarkable from time to time. This vessel was not considered even officially to be worthy of the name depot ship, but acted as a useful tavern and bathroom. It was aboard thq Remarkable that the well-known confraternity known as the Brighter K-boat Society was founded and became an enormous success. Like all such societies, the objects were purely convivial, and it added much to the merriment of all concerned. In particular the steady flow of lampoons which found their way on to the screen on cinema nights in the Remarkable was a most encouraging sign of the literary versatility of submarine officers. There are still many old-timers who cherish the little badge which was worn on official occasions, whilst to this day certain songs which originated from the B.K.B.S. can be heard on Guest Nights. For example:-

'Early in the morning the Inconstant hoists a signal
See the little K-boats all in a row
Man in the control-room pulls a lot of levers
Swoosh-Swish-Down we go.'

Neither my voice nor my memory, you will observe, have lost their timbre after all these years.

"But enough of such frivolities. We learnt how easy station-keeping can become when you are supplied with a revolution telegrapth and a couple of boilers full of steam; we learnt that after ringing down 'Dive' and pressing the hooter it was a good thing to walk along the casing and watch the clips secured on the funnel doors; we learnt that unwelcome visitors could be firmly dealt with by shutting down for diving and opening main vents as they stepped aboard; and we learnt that the end of the world does not come when the boiler-room fills up by reason of heavy seas breaking over the funnel tops.

"We learnt, too, to recognize by a preliminary flickering of the depth gauge needles the symptom that warned us that we were twenty tons bodily heavy, that it was a mistake to try and force a K-boat under by putting an angle on her bows and thus elevating the whizzers above the surface of the ocean, that ammunition hand-ups should be shut before diving and that cable locker doors which give access to the sea are best screwed on at night.

"Those and many other useful lessons we learnt; but, above all, we found that even under the most uncomfortable and peculiar circumstances it is always possible to enjoy life. I will wager you a month's wine bill, Chief, that there is not one K-boat chap who does not look back on that curious era with a nostalgia that grows more poignant as the distance lends its increasing enchantment. Nevertheless, if any damned designer starts working again on steam-propelled submarines I for one am going to make an application for the Chiltern Hundreds."

G. H.-J.

[BALTICSUBS]

Thnx Rob, that was interesting.

I wonder who this chap is, there are only 1 Walter Vallet listed on the National archives site, but he has an Able Seaman Number. J22228

There are only 2 on the system with that surname, the other being Charles Vallet, his number 233668.

Sometimes before they chaged to the J numbers for Able Seaman and K numbers for Stokers, it gets confusing. I find many men who were Able Seaman have the numbers prior to 240000 which should be Able Seaman, but they change to Stokers and keep the Able Seaman number so many people overlook them when trying to find them.

But had he changed from Able Seaman to Stoker in the J series, he would also get a new Stoker K number, so i do wonder that he was an AB & not a Stoker.

What do you think?

[dennis a feary]

Hello Darren, just seen this on `K's as I was `looking round' and saw your name.
Find here the Submarine Service Card for AB Walter Vallet.
I do not have one for Charles Vallet so he may not have been a submariner - but I do not have ALL the cards by any means !! You will notice that both Vallet's came from St. Helens - so brothers / cousins ????

VALLET WALTER AB LTO D/J 22228 NE RN
070395 070517 170509 DOLPHIN
G5 170725 TITANIA DOLPHIN
ADDL 191015
L17 200212 LUCIA
ADDL 201001
DEFIANCE 201102 LTO CSE
ADDL 210628
K2 211014 INCONSTANT
SHORE 220612
ADM 188 / 691 D.o.B ; 07 March 1895 P.o.B ; St. Helens Lancs.

Note ; dates of service on boats are in reverse - 170725 = 25 July 1917

So the photo referred to was taken 14 October 1921 / 12 June 1922.

Sadsac

[Andy Waugh]

Re post 51.

A bigger version of the first attachment & one of K4.

[Teuchter]

Re # 66

Thanks very much Rob - very interesting (and amusing)

I believe the article encompasses the true "spirit" of humour despite adversity which was (and hopefully still is) a subtle but very commendable part of life in the RN

[Rob Hoole]

Hello all,

My friend Walter Davies in St Helens has just confirmed that his grandfather was indeed the Walter Vallet shown in Dennis's post #68 (http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1725903&postcount=68). I must have mistaken him for a stoker because of the steam connection. According to his original service record (which my friend still holds but has offered to the RN Submarine Museum) he was either trained in or served on board the submarines B7, C16, G2, L17 and K2. His reports contain the signatures of Max Horton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Kennedy_Horton) (12/6/22) and Martin Dunbar-Nasmith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Dunbar-Nasmith) (12/5/22). Walter Vallet died on 20 Sep 1986 and I remember him as bright-eyed and bushy-tailed right up to the end.

Charles Vallet was indeed Walter's non-submariner brother and had a colourful history. He deserted and fled to Australia after flooring a CPO he found bullying one of the juniors on board his ship. When war was declared, he joined the ANZACs as a Sapper and was later granted a King's pardon in London. He lived out his life in New Zealand.

[peter schofield]

The Times, 24 January 1921
An Experts Theory – Danger of Rapid Diving in Deep Water by Rear Admiral S. S. Hall RN Retired (In charge of the submarine service during the war)

The ‘K’ Class submarines were designed solely for action with the Grand Fleet in the North Sea. They are the largest and fastest submarines in existence, certainly by far the most complicated and they need an exceptionally well trained crew.
It is not know what rapidity of dive was being demanded by the operation orders, but it seems certain that the first lieutenant (K5) on whom would fall the chief duty of supervision below was recently appointed and also many of the crew were newly joined. However, this may be, it may be taken as probable that the loss of the vessel was due to some delay to checking the downward momentum gained by the vessel being over-trimmed in diving, either by admitting compressed air to slowly to too many tanks at one time, to tanks only partially full, or a sea connection being closed prematurely. In the locality of the exercises the water was so deep that the submarine would inevitably be crushed and prevent control being regained due to the entry of water. This would also prevent any use of the underwater signalling plant being made.
The accident is deplorable in the loss of so many gallant officers and men, and it is not clear why the K Class should be taken on cruises in winter. The vessels may with accuracy be called ‘freak’ submarines built entirely built for the peculiar conditions of the last war. The high speed necessitates great length and the further complication of steam demands very large openings for funnels and air intakes to boiler rooms. These have always been a source of great anxiety in bad weather or rapid diving. It will be remembered that K13 foundered on her acceptance trials owing to some of these openings not being properly closed and half the crew were drowned while the other half were saved only because she was in very shallow water. Presumably these vessels are kept in commission in order to perfect the conduct of such submarines in a fleet battle, but it appears to be a questionable policy since the K Class will be obsolete long before such a battle can take place. They were designed solely for the North Sea and have not the qualifications, nor the sea endurance to accompany a battle fleet under war conditions, except in home waters.
The keenness of all submarine officers is well known. It is hoped that this has not been overstrained from a lack of understanding of the delicacy of this very special type of submarine with the result of the vessels being employed on work for which they were never intended and at which they would be highly dangerous if the personnel were not highly trained.

Characteristics of the K Type

The K submarines have no fewer than five kinds of motive power installed for propulsion on and under water and for working all the complicated machinery which this type of submarine requires. The amount of water to be taken in before the vessel will dive may be anything from 300 to 800 tons according to the amount of buoyancy with which the vessel is cruising. This in turn depends upon the state of the weather, the speed orders and the rapidity required in diving.
It has always been recognised that owing to their size and complications the K class cannot dive as rapidly as smaller and similar submarines. For work with the Fleet this was no disadvantage since they could always expect to get good warning; but a highly trained crew thoroughly familiar with every detail of the vessel is required. With such conditions the K-boats could dive from 20 knots on the surface in about four minutes but with anything but a perfectly trained crew any attempt to do this would be highly dangerous in deep water. With water entering the tanks at 200 tons a minute the vessel might easily be trimmed to such an extent that the slightest hitch in getting the compressed air to act would take the vessel too deep for recovery.
It will be easily understood that as the vessel now weighs over two and a half thousand tons and has way on her he downward momentum may be considerable. If there is much sea or swell it may be imperative to give her some negative buoyancy to get her away from the surface, and though the compressed air will blow one or two tanks rapidly there is often considerable delay in checking the vessels downward motion. This is especially the case if the tank or tanks to which the air is admitted are not quite full and the vessel is already getting deep.
The air has first of all to raise the pressure in the whole of the empty proportion of the tank. During this time the water is still entering and rising in pressure, and only when the air pressure exceeds this and commences to drive the water out will the buoyancy be gained. Even then it will be an appreciable time before the vessel is checked and then begins to rise.
Even then it will be an appreciable time before the vessel is checked and then begins to rise. With the large number of compartments, communication from the control room is maintained by means of telephones or voice pipes to all stations where hatches, ventilators and so forth must be closed before diving, and sea water to the ballast tanks which extend for about 300 feet of the submarines length. It will be readily understood that diving a vessel of this size and intricacy is a delicate operation demanding the complete knowledge of his duty from ever member of her crew and a perfect system of drill and control from the central compartment before rapid diving can be safely undertaken.

[dennis a feary]

ROB, what a very interesting `follow-up' of the `Vallet story'.
Also great to see ones suppositions confirmed.

Sadsac

[BALTICSUBS]

Hi Dennis, do you have a Chief Stoker Walker from K7 in 1918?

[dennis a feary]

Hello Darren, yes, I have him, at least I presume this is `your' Walker - find here his Submarine Service Record Card ;

WALKER WILLIAM CHARLES C/STO P/ 299665
NE RN NE 160703 2ND PERIOD
SC 160703 DOLPHIN
K7 160815 DOLPHIN
K7 170114 FEARLESS
SC 190906 DOLPHIN
GP A 200504 CRESCENT
SC 210613 DOLPHIN
L6 210622 DOLPHIN
L6 210729 DOLPHIN HOSP DOLPHIN
SC 211031 DOLPHIN
SOS 220221 DOLPHIN
SC 220327 DOLPHIN
L52 220907 LUCIA
L52 221202 DOLPHIN
SC 230123 DOLPHIN
K14 CM 230416 DOLPHIN
SC ........... DOLPHIN
SHORE. PENSIONED. S/M RFR 8-1-24
ADM 188/486 D.o.B ; 11 March 1882 P.o.B ; Cambridge

2nd Period - so presumably he had a previous engagement RN - probably surface ships - the ADM 188 will give that. I know you have `umpteen'.

Sadsac

[BALTICSUBS]

Hi Dennis,

yep that was him, picked his name up from K7 log, but hard with a surname only.

Here are 2 more.

K6, Able Seaman E Watson 1917
K9, Whitfield, Y of Sig, 1917

[dennis a feary]

Hello Darren, here is the Ernest Watson that I have. You will notice that he does not show up as being in K6, but these records are not `complete' by any-means !! He is E.W & also AB - ADM 188 will no doubt conferm - please let me know if / when you check. I will next visit PRO - Sept / December ???

WATSON ERNEST AB ST P/ SS 9419
NE RN NE 181120
TC/ADDL 181129 DOLPHIN
FOR ST 190405 VERNON
ADDL 190714 DOLPHIN
FOR TRG 190823 SAREPTA
ADDL 200115 DOLPHIN
L4 200714
L4 200818 AMBROSE
SC 210113 AMBROSE
L16 210802 AMBROSE
SC 211114 AMBROSE
L3 211205 TITANIA
SC 211220 AMBROSE
ADDL 220406 DOLPHIN
SC 220523 DOLPHIN
ADDL 230126 DOLPHIN
DISCHARGED SHORE. S.S. TIME EXPIRED. 9-8-23
ADM 188/1127 D.o.B ; 17 February 1901 P.o.B ; Halsham Yorks

From his number (SS) & not showing up on K6 - he may have remustered from a six figure number (123456 ??) or even a K(Stoker) ????

If you took these Bods from a written document could WHITFIELD be WATERFIELD ????

[BALTICSUBS]

Hi Dennis, no that can't be him, my E Watson AB is listed in K6 log 25/5/1917 as joining her at Scapa Flow from Fearless.

Unfortunately i have so many common names like Smith, Jones, Walker Watson. All need investigation.

[Nigel999]

Can I take it from the goings on in this thread that those who served in K boats are being recorded?

If that's so, is there any particular criteria to make them eligible for recording?

I say that , as I have medals to some men who served in K boats...from memory I'm pretty sure at least 3 . Happy to give details if needed.

Cheers, Nigel

[BALTICSUBS]

Hi Nigel,

yes i'm recording all K Class men, and for that matter all Submariners 1901 1930. Huge task as there was never an official list.

S any details of men i will be happy to check if i have them and any other details i have i will pass to you on these men.

[dennis a feary]

NIGEL, yes, please give details of the K men, especially their numbers if they are on the Gong, and also the Gong itself. If you have many medals perhaps we could identify some ?? Perhaps worth strating a GONG THread - if there ain't one now !!

Darren, will look into my K boat chappies & see `up-what-comes'.

Sadsac

[Nigel999]

Ok folks, here's a starter.

A number of my sub men, are casualties. so I assume that you will all have their details, from CWGC, so the ones I'll post were not lost , although for other reasons you may know of them.

There are not many . just 5 I think, but may be of some contribution.

This man McDonald, is the only one I have a PDF S/R for, all the others are PRO photocopies.

This chap, a career AB earned an Africa General Service medal clasp "Somaliland 1908-10 " and a Naval General Service medal for the Persian Gulf operations, prior to the war in HMS HYACINTH .

He then earned his WW1 trio, and after bumpy start gained a Naval Long Service Good Conduct medal.

I have his full group.

As can be seen, it's possible some details were left off his S/R . Particularly for his period in LUCIA , its hard to believe he was S/C for all that time. Same applies for some other billets as well.

Then of course we see service in G12 and G3 , a period in M1 and then over 3 years in K6!

So that deals with him.

I can relate to another 3 men by name. Another I shall have to track down his file , as I know he was "K" boats , but specifics are not in memory.

However, here's one chap that may be known. , Stoker 1 K13753 W Megee. I have his DSM and British War Medal, he gained the DSM for the famous patrols in E11 under Nasmith.

So you may well have him taped , however unless you've seen his S/R, you will not be aware he went to K boats. He left E11 somewhere near mid to late 1916 . Then ended up in K boats. I know he was at May island, I cannot recall which boat though.

Two other men, did not serve in K boats. They were a PO by the name of Kenchington , who was taken POW by the Turks , from E15 , when stranded in the Dardanelles.

The other , a man named Stubbington, who was interned from E13 , when she too was stranded.

I assume, that perhaps these men are known, owing to the situations they found themselves in. I have the single 14/15 star to Kenchington and the Victory medal awarded to Stubbington.

The fifth man I mentioned, I'll have to find his file to relate specifics, as indeed I'd have to find these others I mentioned if more specifics needed.

I'll have a look for the files anyhow. As I'm in the middle of "reorganising" :rolleyes: my files, it may take a bit longer than normal.

Cheers, Nigel

[BALTICSUBS]

Hi Nigel,

i did not have McDonald.

I did have Megee, listed in K6 log 6/7/1917 as discharged at Scapa Flow to Fearless & rejoined K6 8/7/1917,

Yes i have the other chaps as well, your E13 chap would have got the St George Medal, surivours got it, those killed got the Cross of St George.

[Nigel999]

Hi Nigel,

i did not have McDonald.
I did have Megee, listed in K6 log 6/7/1917 as discharged at Scapa Flow to Fearless & rejoined K6 8/7/1917,
Yes i have the other chaps as well, your E13 chap would have got the St George Medal, surivours got it, those killed got the Cross of St George.

Thanks for that, interesting about the St George medals . A hobby horse of mine , those particular medals...In my case mainly those awarded for Jutland. I had no idea at all that the E13 survivors were awarded them.

Did you see the Group to the E13 man who was killed, that sold a little while back? Was complete with his Russian Cross...Fetched HUGE money, may have been Spink.

Incidentally, thinking on, I've had a memory surge and I'm pretty certain the fifth man I refer to who was in K boat's, I'm pretty sure was named Cullen. I know he gained the NGS Persian Gulf (HIGHFLYER) , and as the roll is to hand he almost certainly is J1843 W Cullen .

His full group being , NGS, WW1 trio and Naval LSGC.

Incidentally. concerning the E15 survivors , I have a vague recollection of reading some while ago, that there is a photo of the E15 survivors (all or some of them) in Turkish hands, post capture.

Anyone any knowledge of this photo?

Cheers, Nigel

[dennis a feary]

Nigel, here is STUBBINGTON ;

STUBBINGTON FRANCIS GEORGE L/STO P/304560
NE RN 200883 130209
130209 DOLPHIN
E13 180828 MAIDSTONE
181114 PRESIDENT V
SC 190101 DOLPHIN
L33 190715 DOLPHIN
SC 200123 TITANIA
L33 210510 TITANIA
SC 220129 DOLPHIN
SC 220609 LUCIA
L25 220610 LUCIA
SICK SC 221124 LUCIA
L18 230221 LUCIA
SC 230924 LUCIA
L18 231008 LUCIA
L11 240117 LUCIA
L11 240512 DOLPHIN GROUP E
L11 250206 DOLPHIN
SC 250709 DOLPHIN
TO SHORE PENSION TIME EXPIRED 27.07.25
P.O.W. 9-6-16
ADM 188 / 496 P.o.B ; SOBERTON HANTS D.o.B ; 200883

Others later

Sadac

[dennis a feary]

Nigel, here is `your' Cullen ;

CULLEN WILLIAM CPO S/COX C/J 1843
LSGC RN 100892 010714
TC 140701 DOLPHIN
C6 BONAVENTURE
E42 160212 MAIDSTONE
K3 171026 FEARLESS
K8 180208 FEARLESS
K11 200203 INCONSTANT
ADDL 200916 DOLPHIN
TC COURSE 201030 VERNON
ADDL 210207 DOLPHIN
SC 210216 INCONSTANT
K6 230527 CONQUEST
ADDL 240818 DOLPHIN INSTRUCTOR
SC 250407 CONQUEST
ADDL 250831 DOLPHIN
GENERAL SERVICE 250925
C S EXPIRES 100822 SENIOR IN RATING 010715 LS
ADM 188/650 P.o.B ; Grays Essex

You wil note that he served in FOUR K boats !!

Sadsac

[BALTICSUBS]

Dennis,

E Berry Able Seaman K2???

[Nigel999]

Nigel, here is `your' Cullen ;

CULLEN WILLIAM CPO S/COX C/J 1843
LSGC RN 100892 010714
TC 140701 DOLPHIN
C6 BONAVENTURE
E42 160212 MAIDSTONE
K3 171026 FEARLESS
K8 180208 FEARLESS
K11 200203 INCONSTANT
ADDL 200916 DOLPHIN
TC COURSE 201030 VERNON
ADDL 210207 DOLPHIN
SC 210216 INCONSTANT
K6 230527 CONQUEST
ADDL 240818 DOLPHIN INSTRUCTOR
SC 250407 CONQUEST
ADDL 250831 DOLPHIN
GENERAL SERVICE 250925
C S EXPIRES 100822 SENIOR IN RATING 010715 LS
ADM 188/650 P.o.B ; Grays Essex

You wil note that he served in FOUR K boats !!

Sadsac


Thanks for that...I'm trying unravel what the number codes etc mean.

Most interesting is that his ADM 188 record , only specifies boats served in from his service in E42 . No mention at all of any earlier boats. Can I take it from this he was in C6?

His record from the entry in BONAVENTURE is thus:

BONAVENTURE 1/7/1914 to 4/8/ 1914

THAMES 5/8/1914 to 28/1/1916 (he is promoted from AB to L/S in this period)

DOLPHIN 29/1/1916 to 28/6/1916

MAIDSTONE 29/6/1916 to 30 /6/1917

MAIDSTONE (E42) 1/7/1917 to 30/9/1917

He then goes to FEARLESS and "K" boats.

So as you can see, it's not untill July 1917 that the first boat (E42) is mentioned in his S/R.

Is it possible he was in C6 from 1914 on..? I'm not up on the Flotilla's so unsure which boats used which Depot ships.

Another puzzle is that his S/R does not list INCONSTANT or indeed, CONQUEST at all, he is listed in K6 with CYCLOPS as D/S .

Interesting.

Cheers, Nigel

[dennis a feary]

Nigel, here is the Submarine Service Record Card of Cullen.
You can see the difference in the entries from ADM 188. These cards are mostly acurate, but by no means definitive - I have seen mistakes / errors in both Card & Adm 188S/R's.

Thought it may be of interest to you / whoever to see an actual Card.
Can you post the ADM 188 of Cullen ???

Sadsac

[Nigel999]

Thanks Dennis, most interesting. I see some key dates actually match, so all is not lost.

From my experience ADM 188 records are renowned not for what they say, but what they do not. My habit of studying original parchments against the relevant ADM188 record , shows that time and again.

I'd take the Sub Service record card as being more accurate, any day of the week.

So, it appears Cullen was in boats for over 11 years...the words "glutton" and punishment come to mind, especially in that era.

The listing of C6 is interesting, it looks like he was in her from onset of war untill he joined E42 , which must have seemed luxury!

It would be interesting to see what depot ship C6's flotilla was served by, that would help somewhat.

Anyhow, unfortunately my copy of Cullen's S/R is a photocopy, not a pdf file.

I'll have to scan it asap and post it.

Cheers, Nigel

[Nigel999]

Sorry about the delay, but here at last is a scan of Cullen's S/R.

The onlt thing that puzzles me is the unintelligible notation immediately above the BONAVENTURE entry.

Cheers, Nigel

[Nigel999]

Hello all,
Some more "K" boat men, and a query or two.

Firstly , K 14498 Horace Bounds DSM. Bounds was lost in K 4 so I assume he is already on the radar.

His ADM 188 S/R charts his course as follows....

Pembroke II 3 April 12 - 28 June 12
London 23 April 12 -
London 3 April 13 - 16 May 13
Pembroke II 17 May 13 - 5 June 13
Triton 6 June 13 - 3 Aug 14
Pembroke I 4 Aug 14 - 6 Sept 14
Cormorant 7 Sept 14 - 28 Feb 15
Blenhiem 1 March 15 - 31 march 16
Europa (?) 1 April 16 - 30 June 16
Dolphin 1 July 16 - 31 Dec 16
Fearless (K4) 1 Jan 17 - 31 June 18

However, for some reason, (Source unknown) its thought he previously served in E2.....yet no mention of it. Any foundation of fact in this? Does he have a Sub card , does anyone know?


The other "K" man may be less well known. He is: Alfred Collins, J5203
Leading Seaman in K3
Leading Seaman and Petty Officer in K6

His ADM 188 S/R charts his boats as follows..

K3 - January 1917to March 1917
K6 - March 1917 to June 1918

H51 - July 1919 to April 1921
L5 - October 1921 to February 1924
L20 - June 1924 to July 1924


Again, any more info at large on this man? Does he have a sub card, anyone know?

Cheers, Nigel

[dennis a feary]

Hello Nigel, here is Submarine details of BOUNDS. You will note that I have C/K 14491 - and you have C/K 14498 ???? Suspect that I am correct - CONFIRM !!!!

BOUNDS HORACE STO 1 C/K 14491
DSM RN 250793 010416
NAVAL CAMP
SC 160401 MUDROS
E2 160410 MUDROS
K4 160811 DOLPHIN
K4 170206 FEARLESS
DD K4 310118
AGE 25 CHATHAM 5 - 436
JOINED RN 030412 SEN IN RATING 030413
Son of Walter and Mary Louisa Bounds, of Donalda, Love St., Eddington, Herne Bay.
Drowned through collision in North Sea.
Chatham Memorial is open 0830 - 1700. For entry Telephone Guard Room at Brompton Barracks, 01634 - 822442.
HMS FEARLESS. ADM 104 / 110. Record 1663. Page 231.
Drowning - S/M "K.4" sunk in collision.
HMS FEARLESS. ADM 188 / 895. AG 159 / 18.
P.o.B ; Whistable, Kent. Occ ; Farm Labourer.
Awarded Distinguished Service Medal AWO No. 3998 9.11.17.
Also Commemorated in St Margeret Pattens Church, Eastcheap, London.
Tablet installed by Mrs De Beauvoir Stock.

Also that he is `Naval Camp' ??? This could be his time at EUROPA.

Sadsac

[Nigel999]

Thanks Dennis

Yes indeed, the morphing from the *correct* number of 14491 to the totally incorrect 14498 is entirely a dogs breakfast of my making.

I'd checked it before making the post as well :eek:

Anyhow, yes, indeed it seems he was in E2 . Does this mean he has a Submarine Card? I'm afraid the codes, 160410 etc have me mystified...any idea as to their purpose, what they inform of?

As for "Naval Camp" , I have never seen that term before. Quite puzzling actually. After all, I'd assume any naval establishment would have a name akin to a ship, and that be used.

Very puzzling.

Tanks again,

Cheers, Nigel

[dennis a feary]

Nigel, quite understand re the number - I `does-it-all-the-time' !!
As to 160410 - all dates in reverse order - 160410 = 10 April 1916 - it makes it easy(er) to `collate' etc when men were serving together and so on.
YES, he has a Submarine Card should you wish to see I could post here for you.
Naval Camp - No, I must admit that I have never seen that before !
Perhaps it alludes to time spent in camp ashore under the auspices of EUROPA - only my supposition you understand !!

TANKS ??? - remember this is a SHIP Forum - well RN did have Landing Craft(Tank) - SO !!! Ho-Hum !!!!

Sadsac

[Nigel999]

Thanks Dennis.
Yes, indeed, if you could post Bounds's card, that would be great, the first documentary evidence he was in E2. I gather, till now , that his E2 service has been anecdotal.

As for "Tanks"..well, that I partly put down to my "seemed a good idea at the time £2 keyboard" . Most very cheap keyboards are fine...this one is a dog though. :(

Still, enough of excuses ...any sign of Alf Collins? Or is he one of the many off radar?

Tanks again...

Cheers, Nigel

:eek:

P/S As for "Naval Camp" ..I've seen several S/R where a man has served ashore and there is a purpose made "Rubber stamp" to this effect. So indeed, a very puzzling term.

[dennis a feary]

Nigel, TANKS for yours !!!
Here is card for Collins ;

COLLINS ALFRED PO TGM D/J 5203 NE RN 190892 090415
TC 150409 DOLPHIN 150428 PACTOLUS 150924 ARROGANT
SC 161005 DOLPHIN
LTO 161008 LENT VERNON
SC 161202 DOLPHIN
K3 170103 FEARLESS
SC 170327 FEARLESS
FOR TGM 180603 DOLPHIN
LENT VERNON 180615 FOR TGM
ADDL 181116 DOLPHIN
H51 181125 PEMBROKE YARD
H51 190704 MAIDSTONE
H42 200728 MAIDSTONE
HASLAR 210602 HOSPITAL
SC 210610 MAIDSTONE
L5 211008 TITANIA AMBROSE
L20 240625 TITANIA
SC 250325 TITANIA
ADDL 250716 DOLPHIN
GENERAL SERVICE 230925
C S EXPIRES 190832 SENIOR IN RATING 170712 AB
ADM 188/657 P.o.B ; Andover Hants D.o.B ; 19 August 1892

190892 is D.o.B 090415 is date of joining submarines.
Actual card for Bounds comes later.

[Nigel999]

Thanks again Dennis.

So Collins is indeed on radar. No mention of K6 though..in his (I assume) card details. Might just be a mis read on his 188 record though.

I'll have to chase it down and check out.

Yes, Bounds's card would be great.

Thinking on, I've also recalled I have another medal somewhere to a man lost on one of the "H" boats . From memory he only served on that class, but I'll dig out his details , see if there is anything else boat wise that relates to him.

After all, I had not the foggiest notion that Cullen was in "C" boats untill his card details came to attention on here. :)

Cheers, Nigel

[dennis a feary]

Hello Nigel, to my shame I cannot find the actual card for Bounds - will keep looking. But as a penance, here is actual card for COLLINS ;

[Nigel999]

Thanks Dennis , a busy card by looks of it.

The "H" boat man I have the medal too...appears to be K/10819 A W Howe.

He was lost in H3. I believe they struck a mine while dived , probing the defences of an enemy port/installation.

Any idea if he was in any other boats? I'm 99% certain that his 188 series S/R only shows the one boat. (H3)

Cheers, Nigel

[dennis a feary]

Nigel, yes, he was `only' H3. Will search out further details if required.
Arthur William HOWE Stoker ADM 188 / 888
D.o.B ; 14 July 1890 P.o.B ; Kilburn London

[Nigel999]

????? I could have sworn I replied to this....Yet the post has disappeared. :eek:

[Nigel999]

Anyhow, thanks again Dennis

Very tragic in the case of Howe, lost in his first and last boat. Sadly all too common. A reminder of the risks that the early submariner's took.

I've always felt the accidents were the worst thing of all, but being pioneers of something new or relatively new has always had a lot of risk. Just the same for early aviators and suchlike.

It would be an interesting statistic to know just how many men actually served in boats in the first 10 years and what percentage of them were lost . It would still be too many, but I'd guess that the actual percentage would be quite low.

Any luck with Bounds's card?

Cheers, Nigel

[dennis a feary]

No luck on BOUNDS I am afraid Nigel - but I must have had his card at one so as to be able to Post it in this Thread. Can only think that I left it at RNSM sometime ??
Any others `of interest' ????

[BALTICSUBS]

Nigel,

the Collins chap you noted K6, he is listed in K6 log 29/3/1917 as joining her at Scapa Flow from HMS Fearless.

[Nigel999]

Thanks Dennis, shame about Bounds , but thats the way of things.

It's great that cards have survived, I well recall going through the entire lot at the museum back in the 80's. They were just starting on transferring the info to computer then.

I was told at the time that the cards had already been well weeded, mainly by the men themselves in later years. Which may explain why the cards to casualties seem to have a better chance of actally being there.

When I went through the cards, I was looking to men from 3 particular boats , and the results were very patchy, I think one boat yielded just 2 or 3 cards.

Still, owt is better than nowt , as they say.

I'll keep my eyes peeled for more K boat stuff to post here.

Cheers, Nigel

[Nigel999]

Nigel,

the Collins chap you noted K6, he is listed in K6 log 29/3/1917 as joining her at Scapa Flow from HMS Fearless.

Thanks Baltic, that is a great snippet of info. Collins's card makes no mention of K6 , but his Adm188 S/R does....

This proves that the 188 has it right, clears any doubt. Brilliant!

Cheers, Nigel

[BALTICSUBS]

All good Nigel, thanks for sharing your info, here you can have the confirmation, this is the K6 log extract for your man.

[Nigel999]

Thanks Baltic, that's absolutely brilliant.

I assume, that it was mostly just "odd" men who were noted in a such a way. a replacement for a man sick , or posted away?

Whatever the reasoning , it sure is interesting.

Out of interest, does anyone have a key way of searching for Sub logs in the PRO online catalogue? I've not searched of late, but I've historically had problems getting results on searches for boats logs...specifying ADM53 or not.

Anybody any hints?

Many thanks again

Cheers, Nigel

[dennis a feary]

Nigel, no problem re ADM 53 LOGS of boats / ships.
I have at home here ALL the listings as they are in PRO ADM Log file. Some years ago PRO had a `clear-out' and I fortunately was able to acquire one of the two copies of the files that they `disposed-of'.
Also have ADM 173 list of files that relate to Submarines. Illustration here ;

HMS/m D3 ; 28 Log Books
ADM 53 / 1008 for 221014 to 311214
ADM 53 / 1046 for 010218 to 280218

Some time I could make up a list & post it on the Forum.
May have done so in the past, but fearfull of be `boring' !!

[BALTICSUBS]

Hi Nigel,

i have a full & comprehensive list of WW1 S/M logs in excell spread sheets, i have copied all & only a couple of late H Class to go. But there are so many gaps in logs, so i have also copied most depot ships, and to fill in other gaps most destroyers assigned with submarines.

The problems with logs is they are in the hands of the author, some are full of details, some not so. Some list details only about the boat, not that many list details on the men. But some list special events re the men, especially with issues on warrants, or deaths. Only one boat had the foresight to write down her commisioning crew in 1915, & some of these men were RNR Able Seaman which was not the norm.

But the main thing with logs is you can see when a boat arrived from say Barrow to Harwich, then you see a whole batch of men's papers change on that day, and these men do not have a Submarine listed on their papers, so i'm in the slow process of matching men to boats, & it is not easy.

[ap1]

Submarine K5


Two postcards from my personal collection, and a photograph that shows K5 in dry dock. Does anybody recognise this dry dock ... is it Chatham? K5 had a refit there in 1920, having not long before had another diving mishap, burying her bows in the muddy bottom of the Firth of Forth.

Clive, the dock is almost certainly No.2 Dry Dock in Chatham.

The adjacent vessel on the left hand side of the picture seems to be in the flooded No 3 Dry Dock next to it.
H.M.S. Cavalier now sits permenantly in this No 2 dock, and H.M. Submarine Ocelot in the one on the North side of it, i.e. No 3 dry dock.

The buildings in front of the dock would be the old Smithery Shops.

No 2 dry dock would be the only one to fit a K class in easily, due to the unusually long length.

[Nigel999]

Lordy, I'm eating my own words now...hitting sub logs fine in the PRO Catalogue

I'm sure I recall having problems locating them with my searches. I know they have recently upgraded the Cat software wise, but I'll bet it was a good slice of operator error. :D

There are some big holes in the sub logs, seems far worse than surface ships. It makes you wonder why so.

Anyhow, for those who are not aware , or have not seen it..here is the memorial to K 4.

http://www.stmargaretpattens.org/

Just click on "memorials" on the left side menu and its the first one down on the new page. Very impressive.

Cheers, Nigel

[dennis a feary]

Nigel, my posting of 110 re ADM Files for D3 & ALL submarines should read ADM 173 NOT ADM 53 as posted. ADM 53 is for Skimmer ships !!!
Apologies to `Skimmer' - Surface dwellers !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ap1]

[QUOTE=Rob Hoole;1725849]Not that many years ago, I used to listen to a friend's grandfather, Walter Valet, speak of his experiences as a stoker in K-boats and other submarines during the Great War and afterwards.

Rob, I knew Walter Valet very well, as many hundreds of St Helens Sea Cadets would do, in the 50's (and 60's.)

He used to give Seamanship lessons, in between his great renditions of his submarine exploits; and one could listen to him for hours!

A great man, and he would always stop in the street for a chat, no matter what the weather. Even years after I had joined the Navy, if we met he would instantly recognise me. Despite his long years, his brain was as sharp as a needle.

Great memories of him.

[Rob Hoole]

Hello Andy,

Silly me for thinking Walter Valet was a stoker but it was the connection with the K-boat's peculiar propulsion that threw me. My wife and I still go on holiday with his grandson Wal and Wal's wife Maggie and visit them regularly in St Helens; it's the only time I ever go to watch Rugby League matches. :)

I will pass on your fine tribute.

[Davidboyle1958]

I've been fascinated reading this thread because I have been trying to find out more about the career of my grandfather, Aldridge Evelegh, who was an engineer officer on K12 - I'm not quite sure when. He never spoke about his time on submarines and I now wish I'd asked him properly.

He gave me a copy of Don Everitt's book to read when I was 9, but that was it.

Any information you have, I'd be ever so grateful for.

David

[BALTICSUBS]

Hi David,

your man was a long time in Submarines & got the OBE i see, as an Engineer Lt he was Appointed to HMS Forth & Submarines 18th of October 1912. He was standing by K Class K11 when being built, & with her until May 1917. He would have given you the book on K Class as his papers show he was in K12 during the Battle of May Island. He was in China with the L Class 1921-24, & was even in Submarine X1 in the later 1920's. He was still in S/m's up to 1935. I can see he also served in WW2, do you have the date of his passing?

[Davidboyle1958]

Thank you so much. That's very useful to know. I know so little about his service record, certainly that early. He ended his career as an Engineer Captain attached to the Reserve Fleet after WWII and died in 1974 - I can dig out the exact date if that would be useful.

[peter schofield]

Francis Drake Algar - J11842
Francis Algar was born in Slaidburn, Clitheroe Yorkshire on 11 Jan 1895. He was one of three sons (Cecil, Norman and Francis) and three daughters (Sally, Constance and Winnie) of William James and Jemina Algar. William Algar was a teacher and headmaster of the Church of England Schools at Slaidburn and later Gawber near Barnsley.

Francis Algar was educated in the Training Ship Warspite and joined the Royal Navy at HMS Ganges as a Boy 2nd Class on 13 Apr 1911. At the time he joined the Navy his parents were living at The School House, Lockington Beverley. He was rated Boy 1st Class on 25 Nov 1911. He joined the 16,500 ton battleship HMS Agamemnon on 2 Dec 1911 and remained in that ship until 26 Mar 1912 when he was drafted ashore to HMS Victory before joining the Portsmouth 13,550 ton cruiser HMS Black Prince on 1 May 1912. His Commanding Officer in HMS Black Prince from 10 Apr 1913 was Captain Frederick D Gilpin-Brown.

He was rated to Ordinary Seaman on 11 Jan 1913 and to Able Seaman on 7 Jun 1914 and drafted to HMS Vernon for torpedo training on 7 Jun 1914 and then to HMS Attentive for HMS Tartar (Lt in Command Herbert RL Edwards) to date 30 July 1914. He returned to HMS Victory on 20 Jan 1915 until 3 Aug 1915.

On 10 Aug 1915 he was drafted to the 28,000 ton HMS Canada (Captain William CM Nicholson). HMS Canada joined the Grand Fleet at Scapa Flow on 15 Oct 1915 and was at the rear of the 3rd Division of the Battle Fleet at the ‘Battle of Jutland’ on 31 May/1 Jun 1916. Francis Algar was rated Leading Seaman on 1 Feb 1917. On leaving HMS Canada he was drafted to HMS Dolphin for Submarine Training on 29 Aug 1917 and then to the Submarine Depot Ship HMS Ambrose on 28 Sept 1918. A draft to HMS Venerable ‘submarines for L7’ followed on 6 Oct 1918. L7 was transferred to HMS Ambrose (Commander Cecil Ponsonby Talbot DSO) on 25 Oct 1918. On leaving L7 he was drafted to HMS Forth for submarine E54 on 25 Jun 1919 and then to HMS Forth as spare crew on 12 Nov 1919. He was drafted ashore to HMS Dolphin on 1 Nov 1919 and then to HMS Inconstant for submarine K11 on 18 June 1920. Francis Algar was rated Petty Officer on 25 Nov 1920 and remained in K11 until 8 Mar 1921 when he was drafted to K2 of the same flotilla. He was next drafted to HMS Crescent for submarines (19 Apr 1921) and back to HMS Dolphin on 13 July 1921.

He was married to Ivy Flora Algar (nee Bennett) at St James Church, Milton, Portsea on 19 Apr 1922. For his WW1 service he was paid his Prize Bounty for the Battle of Jutland – in May 1923 having already been paid his War Gratuity, his share of the Naval Prize Fund and later a Supplementary Share of the Naval Prize Fund.

He then joined HMS Cyclops for submarine K12 on 1 Apr 1924. After returning to HMS Dolphin on 13 Nov 1925 Francis Algar left submarines with a draft to HMS Vernon on 3 Jan 1926. His next draft was to HMS Excellent on 4 Dec 1926 and he then served in the destroyer HMS Restless (Lt Cmdr. NAG Ohlenschlager DSO) which was tender to HMS Excellent. Algar was again drafted to HMS Victory on 23 Nov 1928 ‘awaiting draft’ and was then sent to the cruiser HMS London in the Med on 5 Feb 1929. After just over two years in HMS London he was drafted to HMS Vernon on 17 Jun 1931 and was further drafted to the attached destroyer HMS Vanoc on 27 Nov 1931 and on 30 Aug 1933 he was transferred to HMS Ambuscade.

Francis Algar was advanced to Chief Petty Officer (TGM) on 19 Mar 1934 and on 10 Jan 1935 was released to Pension. On retiring from the RN he worked firstly for the local council in Portsmouth then for the Post Office as a postman. He was recalled for further service during WW2 and joined HMS Victory on 25 Mar 1940 before returning to HMS Vernon on 30 May 1940. He was drafted to the training base HMS Lochinvar between 16 Sept and 10 Nov 1944 before returning to HMS Vernon where he served for the remainder of the war. He then lived at 2 Trevis Road, Milton, Southsea.

Francis Algar retired from the Navy for a second time on 27 Aug 1945. After WW2 he returned to his job of postman. He died on 20 May 1961 after being taken ill. He died on his way to Portsmouth Royal Hospital, Commercial Road. The cause of death was given as Coronary Thrombosis and Essential Hypertension.

Information provide to Barrie Downer by his son Colin Algar.

[dennis a feary]

Hello Peter, following on from your wonderful posting of the RN Career of CPO Algar, find here his Submarine Service Record ;

ALGAR FRANCIS DRAKE PO LTO P/J 11842
NE RN 110195 010917
TC 170901 DOLPHIN
ADDL 171002 TITANIA
ADDL 180902 DOLPHIN
L7 180927 AMBROSE VIA COLLIN
L7 181026 AMBROSE LENT VENERABLE
E54 190626 FORTH VICE PACE
HE CSE 190802 DOLPHIN LENT VICTORY
ADDL 191112 DOLPHIN
TGM 191213 VERNON LENT FAILED
ADDL 200306 DOLPHIN 200618
K11 200618 INCONSTANT
K2 210308 INCONSTANT
K S/M 210418 CRESCENT
ADDL 210713 DOLPHIN
K12 240416 CONQUERER
SC 250319 CONQUERER
K12 250324 CONQUERER
ADDL 251118 DOLPHIN
DISCHARGED TO VERNON 030126
DATE VOL ; 060217 SENIOR IN RATING 010217 LS 251120 PO
C S EXPIRES 110135 ADM 188 / 670 P.o.B ; CLITHEROE YORKS

Sadsac

[culverin]

It was noted in June 1917 that he had applied for the submarine service.
He was recommended by captain Chatfield whilst serving on HMS Lion 1916-1917.
Needless to say, he did not find his vocation under the seas.
It was the K class he could have served on, amongst others.

He, was no less than midshipman Louis Mountbatten.

[ASSAIL]

I went to school in the Sydney suburb suburb of Carlingford where there is a prominent memorial to the loss of the K 13.
The link below gives a very concise precis of the K class as well as the the link between Australia and the submarine. A photo of the memorial is included
I can remember that the school cadet corps provided the guard for the annual memorial service which was always held with a representative from the RAN
htp//members.optusnet.com.au/ordu_4k13submarinememorial.htm

[BALTICSUBS]

It was noted in June 1917 that he had applied for the submarine service.
He was recommended by captain Chatfield whilst serving on HMS Lion 1916-1917.
Needless to say, he did not find his vocation under the seas.
It was the K class he could have served on, amongst others.

He, was no less than midshipman Louis Mountbatten.

Mountbatten did serve in the K Class, did a stint in them for a few weeks and left a few days before the Battle of May Island. His boat was the K6.