HMCS Chicoutimi

[kc]

The incident involving the HMCS Chicoutimi happened right on our doorstep here at world naval ships. We managed to get a couple of photos at the time, and write up a brief report of the incident, which I have included below.

HMCS Chicoutimi was handed over to the Canadian Navy on Saturday, 2nd October 2004 at Faslane Naval Base. Previously, the submarine was the Royal Navy Upholder class submarine, HMS Upholder, launched 2nd December 1986. After leaving the base, the submarine suffered what is reported to have been an electrical fire on the afternoon of Tuesday 5th October, with the loss of one crew member, Lt Chris Saunders, who died as a result of smoke inhalation. The submarine was rendered powerless by the fire, and efforts were made to bring the submarine back to Faslane. Bad weather hampered the rescue bid, and one of the crew of the Chicoutimi was washed overboard during the operation, and rescued by a navy diver. Despite this, the submarine, escorted by the Canadian Frigate, FFH340 St John's, Royal Navy frigate F236 HMS Montrose, and several tugs, returned to Faslane Naval Base on the Gareloch, on the afternoon of Sunday, 10th October, barely a week after she left the very same base.

http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/images/hmcschicoutimi2.jpg
HMCS Chicoutimi, 10th October 2004.

http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/images/hmcschicoutimi.jpg
HMCS Chicoutimi, 10th October 2004.

[Okanagan]

Quite fortunate we were that day when we lost Lt. Saunders. Amazing what we can overcome when faced with difficult circumstances.

Marc

[culverin]

Quite possibly an unwise decision to acquire these 4 boats, on reflection.
We are on the eve of 2011 and Victoria will still not be to sea before mid year. Originally planned for late 2009.
Chicoutimi herself will not return until mid/late 2012.
Well, you have to admire the Canadian perseverance amongst this adversity but as with the Australian Collins boats they all have one thing in common.
The O boats both navies operated for so long were brilliant. Bet they wish the clocks could be turned back.

[Pat in Halifax]

Like most of us here (in Canada's Navy), I never dreamed that the reactivation of these vessels would be so complicated. I don't think our own world of submariners even envisioned that. All that said, two things come to mind-If you have a military with global reaching desires, you really must "go big or stay home". The other is that with the countless efforts by many of us over the last 6+ years as well as the $$$s, it would truly be a shame to pack it in now when the perverbial light at the end of the tunnel, though dim, is in sight.
I was with HMCS ST JOHN'S following the CHICOUTIMI incident and we raced from a Fisheries Patrol off the Grand Banks to Faslane in time to escort her into harbour. The crew seemed okay at the time but I am sure after time for reflection, they all realized how lucky they were. As for the boat, some of STJ's crew were tasked with 'clean up' and it was not a pretty sight. I suspect there may be someone from her crew on these forums that can possibly shed more light on the details.
A tuff (sic) breed our submariners are. I had the 'honour' of working at the now defunct First Canadian Submarine Squadron in HQ (I am a 100% skimmer puke!) in the early 90s and learned very quickly that there is a very unique comaradarie among them, regardless of trade or experience once the 'dolphins are up' - I suspect this is common across all Navies(??) Even when the Mess hosted foreign crews (generally RN or USN), they were welcomed like long lost kin. As a sidebar, I was the Bar Manager in the Snr Rates Mess and I recall getting home by the light of the morning sun following many of these 'outings'!

[culverin]

Since the unfortunate incident on the Chicoutimi an increasing number of those 56 on board have suffered assorted medical ailments, with many leaving the navy altogether because of the debilitating nature of their conditions.
Any fire in a submarine is a serious matter, to be avoided at all costs, however with the noxious fumes from this incident it appears the lives of most on board at the time have been seriously affected to varying degrees.

[culverin]

Corner Brook, having hit the bottom on 4 June, is now temporarily excluded from front line ops, and Victoria, although in the water, still has 6 months to go before re joining the fleet.
This means Canada has no operational boats, that can, operate.
The long term plan is to have 3 of these boats functioning, all based West coast at Esquimalt.
Now functioning, in my language, does not mean operational.

[Brian Wentzell]

Culverin;

As a taxpayer, I can say that perseverance of those involved in the Victoria Class implementation is admirable; however, the inability to make the boats fully operational after a decade should cause Canadians to pause and reconsider the whole program. HMCS Chicoutimi is the former HMS Upholder, the first in class. If you read Navy International from the 1989-1991 period you will find she was plagued by faults and was rarely operational. With respect to the remaining three boats, only Corner Brook and Windsor have had any real time at sea. Victoria, after nearly a decade of refits and repairs is finally working up while Corner Brook and Windsor are entering or still in overhaul. Clearly Canadian naval engineers did not properly understand the condition of the subs at the time of purchase nor the work to bring them back to service. Thus, I doubt that Canada will have more than 1in 4 submarines operational-about the same success the Australians have had with their troubled Collins Class.

The question for Canada's Navy is whether the money being spent, and to be spent, on the subs can be better spent purchasing new arctic/ocean patrol vessels, combatant and support ships, and maritime patrol aircraft. We also have a very troubled helicopter program but that is covered in another thread.

It is apparent that neither the Australian Navy nor Canadian Forces have the skills to make large highly technical purchases or maintain complex systems. This is truly worrisome as both countries need effective multipurpose maritime forces to counter complex threats in their respective areas of interest. As a result it is time to cut our losses and move on before our resources are so depleted that we cannot keep other essential systems operable.

Brian

[Brian Wentzell]

As a post script to my Post #7, it is interesting to note that the Canadian and Australian defence ministers recently met in Australia and agreed to a number of common initiatives. On the navy front they agreed to share information concerning their troubled submarine programs. It will be interesting to see what, if anything comes out of that.

As a second post script, HMCS Corner Brook is now out of service as a result of an underwater grounding in late spring 2011. The boat is reported to have sustained some damage to her sonar dome and underside forward. Inspections are being done in Esquimalt but, as she is heading for an extended docking period, her return to service will probably be in 2016.

HMCS Victoria is now in work ups but had a small fire in her communications mast which demands investigation and repair a week or so ago. The damage was minor and will require a few days to fix.Therefore, there are no operational Canadian boats at the moment.

All of which is fuelling the public's concern about sticking with this program at a time of pending federal budget reductions.

Brian

[Brian Wentzell]

The fog around HMCS Chicoutimi remains. The Chief of Naval Staff is quoted today in the newspaper, Halifax Chronicle-Herald, that she will be in service in 2013. A former member of her 2004 crew challenges that view because she has been stripped of parts for the three other boats. In addition this former submariner states that there are not enough trained and medically fit sailors to man two, let alone three boats.

The fog will lift someday.

Brian

[Brian Wentzell]

The fog around the Victoria Class continues to swirl. In this time of pending federal government austerity in Canada every department has been asked to provide budget requirements for the next fiscal year with 5% and 10% reductions. Within the Defence Department that will mean a freeze on the growth of the Regular Force for several years, a reduction in Reservists on full time service, a reduction in civilian workers and some cuts in infrastructure and equipment.

It is estimated that it will cost $400,000,000 to rebuild and refit HMCS Chicoutimi, the fire damaged never commissioned boat that saw 2 days service in 13 years. Work had recently started on her but it seems to be more sensible to disassemble her for spares for the other three boats. Victoria is on post-refit trials but Windsor will not return until 2013 and the grounding damaged Corner Brook, which is due for major refit in any case, will not be back until 2016, if ever!

I think I see two boats being kept in service with Corner Brook in reserve. If, and this is a big if, Canada decides to stay in the submarine business, it will have to co-operate with Australia on its replacement program for the ailing Collins Class or develop a new strategy. Building and owning nuclear submarines are beyond our financial and technical capabilities today but perhaps a joint manning of UK or French nuclear boats assigned to support Canadian sovereignty and naval presence operations can be considered. As the Americans are challenging our Arctic sovereignty claims, I do not see Canadians looking for an American assisted solution.

As a taxpayer, I say to the government and Canadian Forces it is time to spend our naval program dollars more wisely and on real capabilities that we need, for example the joint support ships, Arctic/Offshore Patrol Vessels, and replacements for the aging Tribal Class destroyers and Aurora Maritime Patrol Aircraft.

Brian

[ludsie]

I think the lesson was that its probably better to buy new then buy something slightly worn

[Brian Wentzell]

Ludsie: You are probably right but look at the Australian experience with the Collins Class. The Commander of the Canadian Navy went on record late yesterday (Friday) to say HMCS Victoria will be operational early next year (2012) and HMCS Windsor will follow about six months later. He was trying to correct the words of a public relations officer who said Windsor will be back in operation in 2013. When the RCN can't get the dates straight how can anyone have confidence in what is being said. It is truly a sad state of affairs.

Brian

[culverin]

It appears that Canada is planning on keeping a fully operational submarine service, not only that but with the existing 4 boats, 3 being available at any time.

2022-2024 are the dates pencilled in for the Corner Brook to have the last of class major refit, in old parlance, which implies an out of service date c 2029. The other 3 to have theirs between 2013 and 2022.

Victoria, currently conducting trials off the west coast should be ready for full front line service in spring 2012