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ivorthediver
03-07-2009, 18:30
I know it happened in peacetime as I have read know end of reports on it ....but how often were ships of the line subject to sprung plates which allowed water in the ship and how could you contain such a large ingress of water whilst " Steaming "

qprdave
03-07-2009, 18:41
When you talk of "ships of the Line", Ivor. Are you talking about Wooden ships i.e. Nelsons time?

ivorthediver
03-07-2009, 19:03
When you talk of "ships of the Line", Ivor. Are you talking about Wooden ships i.e. Nelsons time?


No Sorry,...... slip of the pen...... I meant Grey Funnel Fleet

qprdave
03-07-2009, 19:29
Damage Control is a very important part of training for the RN. Although it is mainly Stokers who deal with it, Everyone gets involved. When I was there there was a place call HMS Pheonix. It had a mock up of a ship with compartments. Ladders, hatches about the size of a two story house. Inside there were holes in the metal that looked like blast holes. There was an explosion, the lights went out and they turned the water on and it came through the holes and everywhere else. We had to block the holes before we drowned.

I digress. Throughout the ship there are Damage control lockers. That contain different sizes of wood plates of steel Clamps etc. Small holes can be fixed by placing a metal plate over it and screwing down. Large holes could be fixed by using anything like matresses to plug the hole and and then using the wood and screws to secure them in place. The screws could be anything from 4ft to about 7ft with flat plates at each end. This could then be wedged against the opposite bulkhead and then screwed up to make it tight. With these in place I doubt that it would be advisable to go flat out but it would get you back to harbour for slightly better repairs. Then it is back to a dock yard and dry dock.

If the compartment was too damaged then the only option might be to Isolate the rest of the ship from the flooded compartment by watertight doors and hatches and perhaps flooding certain other parts of the ship to stabilise.

oldsalt
03-07-2009, 19:39
From long gone instruction in DC I remember that two types of wooden wedges were used, soft wood for hammering into splits & hard wood for shoring. To identify them, hard wood wedges had bevelled edges.

qprdave
03-07-2009, 19:41
Yes, you are right Keith. I had forgotten about them

ivorthediver
03-07-2009, 19:45
Thanks Dave,

Ref Screws:- would that be what I know as Acrow props which were a set of tubes [one inside the other] with holes at one end of the inner pole and a pin to hold it at a set distance and beneath the pin a rotating nut with a bar attached on one side to rotate it and give fine adjustment, and square plates welded to the outer most ends to go against whatever you were trying to prop up ?

qprdave
03-07-2009, 19:52
Sounds exactly right, Ivor. Just never knew the name of have forgotten

jbryce1437
03-07-2009, 20:01
I did the NBCDI course at Phoenix, prior to leaving the RN, and yes, I nearly drowned in the ship mock up - much to the satisfaction of the instructors - who endeavoured to make the job very difficult and stretch you to the limits, but knew when to ease off the water flow into the compartment;)
Not sure of how frequent the problem of sprung plates is, probably rare on welded ships, apart from running aground or in a collision. When on the Undaunted in the 1960's we developed a split between the old, rivetted, steel hull and the newer, aluminium, superstructure which had been built on when she was converted to a frigate in the 1950's. Fortunately, for us, the split was well above the water line, in the Engineers Workshop above the boiler room, and was repaired by the dockyard as an emergency repair.
On another of my ships, a Type 14, we hit stormy waters and steel ladder from the focsle to the bridge deck was torn from the superstructure, leaving a split in the front of the compartment, which was temporarily shored up until a permanent repair was made.

Vegaskip
03-07-2009, 20:04
I have one for the stokers, while looking through one of my ref books there was a photo of a Canadian 'Flower', the caption said note there are no cowel vents, denoting that her boilers are force fed.
This got me thinking, what happens if her electrics are knocked out, assuming that the 'force' is electric fans.Is she unable to steam.
Probably basic engine room stuff,but I just wondered.

ivorthediver
03-07-2009, 20:05
Sounds exactly right, Ivor. Just never knew the name of have forgotten


Thanks that dovetails nicely and gives me a better idea of what went on.

I can't imagine the terror that must have been in everyone's mind when that happened to know where everything would be to plug a hole of unknown size
and remaining stability of the surrounding structure , the force of the water coming through .....trainings one thing but the reality of not knowing if you can stop the massive influx of water in very short order with what "might" be there, makes my head swim.

I have had some very close calls calling for immediate action at considerable depth and have coped calmly and methodically with it but this scenario is quite different to me.

qprdave
03-07-2009, 20:07
I remember that Jim.

I also remember when sitting by the funnel as watch on deck debating which part would sink if the crack got too bad. Strangely, we never thought about it off watch when we were down blelow

jbryce1437
04-07-2009, 18:29
I know it happened in peacetime as I have read know end of reports on it ....but how often were ships of the line subject to sprung plates which allowed water in the ship and how could you contain such a large ingress of water whilst " Steaming "

Delving into the grey matter, the following info may help to understand how the watertight integrity is maintained on warships:

Warships are designed with numerous small compartments, much to annoyance of the crews which, in the event of any sustained damage, by action or accident, can be isolated without too much loss of buoyancy. Other compartments can be counter flooded to try and maintain the trim of the vessel. The access to all compartments is controlled, depending on which damage control state that the ship is under.

When at Action Stations, the highest state of control is in force and all openings, ie hatches and doors must be kept closed. In the event of a hit, any ingress of water would be curtailed to, hopefully, the compartment hit or only those adjacent. Even doors which are in the main passageways must be closed with a minimum of 2 clips.
When entering and leaving harbour, or when replenishing from a ship at sea, for example, the opening and closing of certain doors and hatches is prohibited, especially below the water line.
When in harbour, a lesser degree of control is exercised above the waterline, but permission must be obtained to open hatches and doors below the waterline and they must be re secured on leaving and not left open unattended.
Whilst we never sprung a plate on my old ship, we were flooded out several times whilst alongside. That happened when the fresh water tanky misjudged the filling of the fresh water tanks under the mess, resulting in an overflow and lots of wet bedding, etc. We were fortunate, the consequences for the submarine Artemis were more serious.
Hope this helps to explain things simply, to none Naval types.

ivorthediver
04-07-2009, 18:40
Thanks J B ,

that regime now makes sense to me and answers a few more questions also

NSR
04-07-2009, 21:47
I have one for the stokers, while looking through one of my ref books there was a photo of a Canadian 'Flower', the caption said note there are no cowel vents, denoting that her boilers are force fed.
This got me thinking, what happens if her electrics are knocked out, assuming that the 'force' is electric fans.Is she unable to steam.

The FD (forced draught) fans supplying the boiler rooms are steam driven. In modern ships these are driven by small single disc turbines, usually velocity compounded. (Single rotor disc with two or three rows of blades fixed to the rim). Older vessels often had high speed reciprocating engines, Peter Brotherhood is a manufacturer that comes to mind. On Pincher (Algerine Class minesweeper) the FDs and main circulator pumps were PB high speed recips. Except for the main engines and the turbo-generator all the auxiliaries were recips, either rotary or direct acting types.

Ken

ivorthediver
05-07-2009, 05:59
I have one for the stokers, while looking through one of my ref books there was a photo of a Canadian 'Flower', the caption said note there are no cowel vents, denoting that her boilers are force fed.
This got me thinking, what happens if her electrics are knocked out, assuming that the 'force' is electric fans.Is she unable to steam.

The FD (forced draught) fans supplying the boiler rooms are steam driven. In modern ships these are driven by small single disc turbines, usually velocity compounded. (Single rotor disc with two or three rows of blades fixed to the rim). Older vessels often had high speed reciprocating engines, Peter Brotherhood is a manufacturer that comes to mind. On Pincher (Algerine Class minesweeper) the FDs and main circulator pumps were PB high speed recips. Except for the main engines and the turbo-generator all the auxiliaries were recips, either rotary or direct acting types.

Ken

Thanks for that Ken......you "spiked my guns" nicely there as that was going to be my next question

Vegaskip
05-07-2009, 08:10
Thanks to both, It's a long way down From the flight deck to the engineering domain

NSR
05-07-2009, 13:09
Steam also drives the catapults and they are on the flight deck.

Ken

Vegaskip
05-07-2009, 19:00
I always wondered what the white fluffy stuff was that used to waft up between my legs when I was directing cabs on to the Caely Gear.

ivorthediver
05-07-2009, 19:16
I always wondered what the white fluffy stuff was that used to waft up between my legs when I was directing cabs on to the Caely Gear.


The result of GOOD CURRY perhaps Jim ? :confused:

tim lewin
05-07-2009, 20:29
Dont overlook the good old fashioned quick-setting concrete; when Urchin burst open her main condensor inlet (rust) while en route for Scandinavia they turned the ship round to take the pressure off and steamed gently sternwards while a concrete patch was made up. Once dried round they went, revolutions for 22 kts and cought up. The patch outlasted the poor old ship.
tim

John O'Callaghan
05-07-2009, 23:47
Ivor
My damage control knowledge is a bit antiquated.But in any event where we have water entering the ship, there were, as part of the ships damage control system a series of DC lockers throughout the ship.
These were stuffed full of breathing apparatus,tools,portable fire pumps and a vast array of other things to numerous to mention including ,at action stations, Stokers.
There were also baulks of timber to construct shoring to support damaged bulkheads (just cut to size) for smallerholes there were splinter boxes which could be bolted through the hole,pipe patches for damaged pipes and various sizes of bungs (it was often very scientific).If all else failed we would use a Stoker as an improvised bung(just select the most appropriate size).
I did see a photo a few years ago when HMS Newcastle(I think)ran on a rock at Lord Howe Is.(I think)that they used what appeared to be Acroprops on her shoring.

qprdave
06-07-2009, 00:12
"If all else failed we would use a Stoker as an improvised bung(just select the most appropriate size)"

What a great idea John.. Why didn't they think of that on the ships that I was on!!!!!!

John O'Callaghan
06-07-2009, 01:57
qprdave.
I'm sorry.I didn't mean to suggest that Stokers were the only people who could be usefully employed in damage control.Some times we used mere mortals.
Cheers John O'C.

qprdave
06-07-2009, 02:06
Nooooo.
I think that you are right. Especially if you use the stokers that normally flood out the seamans's mess deck with fresh water or, even worse, FFO.

ivorthediver
06-07-2009, 05:08
Belay that scurrilous chat ...just remember who got you there in the first place !

John O'Callaghan
06-07-2009, 07:38
I do believe that Stokers work better as they were capable of absorbing copious quantities of liquid without ill effect.Others, when so used, merely became warped, distorted and incapable of effective action.
Cheers!

HMS Bergamot
06-07-2009, 09:05
No one has mentioned them yet, but what about collision mats. As I understand it, the weight of the water trying to get in through the hole held the mat against the hole and stopped the water getting in. But, how big a hole could they cover?

ivorthediver
06-07-2009, 15:25
I do believe that Stokers work better as they were capable of absorbing copious quantities of liquid without ill effect.Others, when so used, merely became warped, distorted and incapable of effective action.
Cheers!


You tell em John....you just earnt yourself some free rum in the stokers mess.

" merely became warped, distorted and incapable of effective action "

ARRRRRRR ....................you mean " Ex heck Dabtoes"

qprdave
06-07-2009, 15:33
You way not be aware, John, but as Quartermaster/Bosun's Mate, I have seen many of the Marine Engineer Dept. Stagger back on board and fall of the steps of the Gangway. And the vast majority are not very well at all. Unless it was the Egg and Bacon Roll that they bought at the greasy spoon outside the dockyard gate!!!!!!!! But I don't think so

ivorthediver
06-07-2009, 15:45
You way not be aware, John, but as Quartermaster/Bosun's Mate, I have seen many of the Marine Engineer Dept. Stagger back on board and fall of the steps of the Gangway. And the vast majority are not very well at all. Unless it was the Egg and Bacon Roll that they bought at the greasy spoon outside the dockyard gate!!!!!!!! But I don't think so


Doubting Thomas ...you were just bias because of those nice shiny propellers on there sleeve's ...its a good example of those poor soul's working environment........ and the conditions they have to work under...severe dehydration...... thats all it was

harry.gibbon
06-07-2009, 18:31
Doubting Thomas ...you were just bias because of those nice shiny propellers on there sleeve's ...its a good example of those poor soul's working environment........ and the conditions they have to work under...severe dehydration...... thats all it was

"Propeller on their sleeve" if you please ITD disgrace on you!!!!!

ivorthediver
06-07-2009, 18:40
"Propeller on their sleeve" if you please ITD disgrace on you!!!!!


Slip of the tongue arry...... sorry

nogrub
06-07-2009, 18:50
Acrow props,we certainly never had such luxury items in my 20 odd years in the RN, It was sawn 4 x 4s to make your props, small holes were repaired using splinter boxes.
Harry

qprdave
06-07-2009, 19:16
"Propeller on their sleeve"

Probably the best place to have it. Stokers wipe their noses on their sleeves don't they?

ivorthediver
06-07-2009, 21:07
"Propeller on their sleeve"

Probably the best place to have it. Stokers wipe their noses on their sleeves don't they?


Yes but at least they wipe them ...and keep them clean

John Odom
06-07-2009, 21:41
Seriously, I have always had great awe and respect for the damage control parties. There are numerous occasions where they accomplished what seemed impossible and kept a ship afloat so it could get back to a repair facility and fight another day.

qprdave
06-07-2009, 22:03
Throughout my time we did enough D.C. exercises that we could almost do it with our eyes closed. Never enjoyed doing it but knew how vital it was to learn and remember

John O'Callaghan
07-07-2009, 22:32
Hi HMS Bergamot!
Sorry to have ignored you post on collision mats while distracted by discussions on what may appear to be more weighty matters.I do remember them being mentioned on DC courses(see Chief I told you I was awake so why did make me double around the DC School)I don't recall ever seeing them used.They theoretically could be lowered over the side and seal a hole.Sails and canvas are sometimes used in smaller vessels with some success.In Nelsons time (all bow) I believe it was called fothering. Make that man an Admiral!In the the more workaday world in big ships it dont know how sucessful it would be and would require begnign sea conditions

Cheers JohnO'C.

jbryce1437
10-07-2009, 19:57
When I joined in 1963, there were quite a few posters showing ships which had been saved, due to good damage control. The photograph that struck me the most was one of HMS Kelly, which was towed to the Tyne and repaired, then returned to service.
The first pic shows her in dry dock, and could have been the photo used for the poster I recall, whilst the other shows her well down in the water while being towed in the Tyne to the repair yard.

ivorthediver
10-07-2009, 20:42
Seeing how low in the water she was I am surprised she got there !!!!

qprdave
10-07-2009, 20:45
As Jim has stated. Good Damage control and a bit of luck!!!!!!

harry.gibbon
10-07-2009, 22:30
As Jim has stated. Good Damage control and a bit of luck!!!!!!

Re the pics... and that is a good enough reason for any matelot to want to save his home and get it back for repair!!! Its what we have been trying to convince others of in other threads!!! if the ship appears to want to survive jack will surely do everything to make it happen!!!

I have always been saddened that after the Falmouth/RFA collision, no Damage Control pics are available. I know everybody was frantically keeping her afloat and saving their own lives as the first priority.

ivorthediver
11-07-2009, 05:49
How on earth did they manage to patch up a hole that big and get back ?
the lower half of the forward port side has gone

rumrat
11-07-2009, 11:43
Here's an underside view of Jims shot of KELLY in Hawthorn Leslies Drydock at Hebburn on Tyne,After being torpedoed off The Norwegian Coast on 8 May 1940 it took 92 hours to tow her to the Tyne for repairs.

Regards
Dave

mik43
11-07-2009, 16:30
Ref the 'trainer', I think it is now at Raleigh and been modernised so that the darn thing actually rock and rolls just to add to the fun!!

Mik

qprdave
11-07-2009, 16:32
Re previous post by someone....
I wonder how many stokers it took to plug that hole!!!!!!!!!

ivorthediver
11-07-2009, 17:28
Re previous post by someone....
I wonder how many stokers it took to plug that hole!!!!!!!!!


Two many !

Scurs
13-07-2009, 15:42
There are those who have heard this ditty before, and those who havn't...........so...................

scene............Gunners Mess, HMS Chichester, 1150.........tot just up! Over tannoy..............."Hands to Emergency Stations"! 15-20 matelots, holding or waiting for tot, of one thought, "What are they playing at"?
CLANG! for under feet in vicinity of 4.5" magazine/shell room.........AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH................20 bodies try to get up messdeck ladder at once. By the time we reached the upper I would probably have qualified for Bronze Medal at least!

Not really funny.........no far off "Hands to Harp Playing stations".........the ship had been acting as target for submarine and had been hit by a rogue dummy torpedo.
Luckily, it hit on a rib, but stowed against ship's side where it hit were many 4.5" primers..........which didn't as usual like being shook up! We get dry docked whilst hull inspected.........lucky..........but daft time to expect Jack to react...........tot time.

jbryce1437
13-07-2009, 19:18
Scurs, it was quite usual for games and OOW manoevres to commence around Up Spirits and Hands to Dinner, so everyones thoughts, initially, were probably thinking along those lines. Hope you all managed to get your underpants clean;)

Scurs
13-07-2009, 20:08
jbryce1437..........Good to "see" you again.......we are all familiar with the oft heard "Hands to dinner.........up revs.......Port plenty" .
Let's put it this way, Sick Bay didn't use any laxatives that day!