View Full Version : ADVANCEMENT FROM BOY TO O.D.
REQUEST FOR INFOMATION PLEASE: Some were under the impression that to be an O.D (Ordinary Seaman) you had to be 18 years old. It has come to light that many Boys, Boy Seamen, Tels and Sigs, became O.D.'s at the age of 17 yeara 6 months (myself included, fact forgotten until my docs consulted), one at 17 yrs 8 months whilst others not until their 18th birthday. The question is what were the 'Rules?' Two guesses are that they are: Either in an A.F.O. or in K.R.'s and A.I.'s? Can anyone quote 'chapter and verse' as to when a Boy was advanced to O.D. or point me in the right direction to find out please? I thought that having E.T.2 as opposed to E.T.1 may have been the requirement but some Boys with E.T.2 were not advanced until age 18. If there are any Scribes or ex D.O.'s out there perhaps you know?
harry.gibbon
27-05-2009, 22:12
Mousey, and there I was being soooo helpfull, I put an answer in the last posting on your thread on the ROYAL OAK.:o Quoting the document that may give the answer:)
Little h
Little H. Yes I thought we were on the right track too BUT a whole group of Boys, some who had their ET2's were not advanced to O.D. untll they reached 18 yrs old which torpedoed that idea UNLESS their D.O. or the scribes slipped up? Many seem to agree that having ET2 did not come into it. Perhaps it only excused the requirement for ET1?
harry.gibbon
29-05-2009, 21:31
Little H. Yes I thought we were on the right track too BUT a whole group of Boys, some who had their ET2's were not advanced to O.D. untll they reached 18 yrs old which torpedoed that idea UNLESS their D.O. or the scribes slipped up? Many seem to agree that having ET2 did not come into it. Perhaps it only excused the requirement for ET1?
Mousey I am of a different view to the one held about ET2 my belief is that if you'd been streamed off on the Advanced Course and passed that, then the accelerated advancement to OD was automatic!!
By all means run it past your other Ganges contacts, but the form I referred to in the Royal Oak thread never mentions ET2!!! Little h
Mousey
I was 17yrs 6mths when I reach the dizzy heights of O/D (some would say that I was still an O/D when I left 10yrs later)
This was eagerly awaited because it meant that we got all night leave.
harry.gibbon
29-05-2009, 21:48
Mousey
I was 17yrs 6mths when I reach the dizzy heights of O/D (some would say that I was still an O/D when I left 10yrs later)
This was eagerly awaited because it meant that we got all night leave.
Dave where did the Navys' Educational Tests fit in in relation to your promotion to OD? You may have a clue as yet unearthed!!!
All nighters' eh must have been the increase in pay!!!
Little h
6 months accelerated advancement when drafted to or accepted for an OD's sea billet or compliment billet ashore, pay and allowance thing. Most Juniors got this when I was in, but then I am a lot younger than those that chip in.
Good to get more pay than milk and sweets.
Regards Charles
harry.gibbon
29-05-2009, 22:38
6 months accelerated advancement when drafted to or accepted for an OD's sea billet or compliment billet ashore, pay and allowance thing. Most Juniors got this when I was in, but then I am a lot younger than those that chip in.
Good to get more pay than milk and sweets.
Regards Charles
Ah ha Charles the trap was set... and the question is what ET qual did you have as a Junior when you left training? I did 3months sea training, then drafted back ashore 3 months, then off to a Battle Class in Guzz and eventually out to Med ... but ... the 17 years 6 mths age kicked in to get OD based on ET AC Qual cert.
Little h
If you didnt have your ET or NAMET you didnt go, must get the basics right first eh. Needed to count and spell before you could wag a flag at sea. If you didnt make the grade it was questions asked in front of the old man and off with you, no more questions asked.
Regards charles
harry.gibbon
29-05-2009, 23:11
If you didnt have your ET or NAMET you didnt go, must get the basics right first eh. Needed to count and spell before you could wag a flag at sea. If you didnt make the grade it was questions asked in front of the old man and off with you, no more questions asked.
Regards charles
Looks like Mousey is gonna ave to get his other Ganges lads to look up their demob docs just like I did and maybe they'll find their own answer... I've related my own circumstances so it is over to t'others now me finks.
WAG's at sea... obviously not the modern parlance so to speak!!! phew
Little h
Just have a look at the regulations and "give a quote", not a hardship harry (little h) them rules are their to follow not guess. Mousey and his pals can interprate them as they feel, to achieve OD you had to be in a Compliment Billet.
What is a WAG's prey tell.
Regards Charles
harry.gibbon
29-05-2009, 23:44
Woa there Charles ... whenever I had hardships in RN I got hard-lying money!!
This issue is way outwith that, in that in the Royal Oak thread where it raised its head I quoted AFO 463/57 as it was included in my comic cuts; and the last time I was at sea was 1974, so anything/everything can/will have changed since then. Search as we may neither Mousey or I could find reference to this actual AFO.
T'wasn't whether you were in a compliment billet really... as I have explained I was way into my commission as ships crew as a Junior but in the Comms mess proper and my comic cuts advised the reason for accelerated advancement was this AFO.
WAG's = wives and girlfriends especially of professional footballers
Little h
A few words of explanation/recap Gents. This question arose from an entry in the HMS HOOD Book of Remembrance in Boldre church, Hants. Peter Reddall is listed as an Ord. Signalmen. Hood went down on 24 May 41. We know he was less than 18 at that time. The question was raised was his rate incorrectly recorded. Those concerned at that point, me included , had forgoteen about advancement, at 17 yrs and 6 months, to O.D. Some Boys advanced at that age, me included, and some had to wait to 18. One Boy advanced at 17 yrs 8 months, but seems to be a one off. Possibly a D.O. or scribe slipped up? The question then moved on to "did all boys AUTOMATICALLY become O.D.s at 17 1/2 or was some qualification e.g. E.T.2, required?" As far as I can remember ET2 was a more difficult exam but the only benefit was you were excused ET1. Note those who had to wait until 18 were all on one ship. Another slip up? It seems this situation prevailed pre war up until around the mid 50's. There must have been something in black and white re advancement? e.g. an AFO or K/Q.R. & A.I.? Presumably some reference library holds these? It would be nice to know as memories naturally differ. Similar discussions have taken place re when the last duck suits were issued and when the last flannel fronts were worn etc. Finally the Hood Boys thead got entangled with the Royal Oak thread basically because a greater number of Boys were lost on the latter than on the former - 200 in total! Whilst info re Juniors is interesting I do not think they come into this picture. We've certainly covered a bit of ground. Semaphore, hard layers, wags, namet's(?) etc. Hope you all have a clearer picture now. Regards Mousey. P.S. I donated all my original docs to the HMS Ganges Museum but kept photocopies of some. I have found my ET2 and notes re Recommendations for Advancement etc. Will post them as soon as I have time to copy and attach - another fine mess I've got myself into!
P.P.S. Herewith 2 attachments. My ET2 ~ Only a 2nd class pass, not good enough! Note it is is dated well after I left Ganges? The Andrew catching up on paperwork? I was also an A.C. Boy, so perhaps we were 'streamed' as suggested and took ET2? Notes/Instructions for completing forms which mentions KR's and AI's plus umpteen form references. For info they are A4's scanned in at 200 dpi so if they are not readable as attachments will someone please put me right re correct dpi setting???
Sorry little h was a bit harsh.
Advanced Class Boys, CL 10/1910 N14058/90 dated 8th May 1910,
Advancment of Boys to Mans rating, CL 43/1913 N15876 dated 21st Nov 1913,
Passed and recommended in all respects for OD move from supernumary/training billet to compliment Billet at 171/2 to recieve pay and allowances as for OD, but not time for badges until 18 years, if a youth attains 181/2 without being advanced to OD on yer bike.
Different rules if enlisted as a Youth.
His Ships book list would change from List 13 to List 5.
These rules were still extant in the 70's,80's and 90's.
Regards Charles
Regards Charles
Sorry little h was a bit harsh.
Advanced Class Boys, CL 10/1910 N14058/90 dated 8th May 1910,
Advancment of Boys to Mans rating, CL 43/1913 N15876 dated 21st Nov 1913,
Passed and recommended in all respects for OD move from supernumary/training billet to compliment Billet at 171/2 to recieve pay and allowances as for OD, but not time for badges until 18 years, if a youth attains 181/2 without being advanced to OD on yer bike.
Different rules if enlisted as a Youth.
His Ships book list would change from List 13 to List 5.
These rules were still extant in the 70's,80's and 90's.
Regards Charles
Regards Charles
Lt. Joseph Charles Sir, I must admit you have quite lost me regarding your first 2 lines. Without being cheeky, did you actually join as a Boy in 1910? In Class 10? Seriously though what do the references CL...followed by numbers and N...followed by numbers mean? Are you referring to the 'rules' in force pre WW1 and think they were unchanged up till the 90's? Look forward to your reply with interest. Thanks Mousey.
No Education test apart from the N.A.M.E.T. at Ganges. I didn't do that well 5-2. (5-5 to get to L/S and above).17 1/2 was the age that we got to be O/D just put in a request and it was granted. No seamanship test at all.
I don't know of any reason for having to wait longer except possibly deferment because of conduct. Although I never heard of that happening personally!
This was in 1968
harry.gibbon
30-05-2009, 21:41
Dave,
Interesting response this especially since I am going hairless ( no I am already hairless ) trying to track down this AFO/57 which is referred to in my comic cuts, as already mentioned...
Will somebody please help:confused: kaus:-
I am piggin sik ov bein unable to fink strait on dis subjekt ... der iz mor reesuns fer dis soddin aksellerated advansmint iss-u, n any ovva i av ad the plessur of no-in-aah-bowt:eek:
Might even reveal the issue of being 17yrs 6mths old and readying for a show down in Gulf 1960... when is an adult a junior ??? that'll get you guessing!
Little h
I am only speaking as one from Ganges who joined as a Junior. Not sure what happens to Adults joining Raleigh. Seeing that a Junior is definitely age driven. I suspect that they are O/S when they join. So there must be a certain amount of sea time to be done before A/B
harry.gibbon
30-05-2009, 22:57
Dave sorry to confuse ... my Q was referring to the fact that when preparing to go into 'possible hostilities' up the Gulf pre Saddam Hussein I was requested to SIGN that I was prepared to go into such a senario whilst under 18 yeo (due to accelerated advancement).
So now we see my interest in the outcome of this AFO question, it was after all the modern Navy :D;)
Little h
I don't know how much was that was adhered to. I joined the Undaunted as a Junior. Another Junior who joined the same day had been on the Ashanti. When he was in Aden, during the troubles there and the withdrawal, he was detailed off as shore patrol and given a rifle and went out with the Argyll's (Of Col. Mad Mitch fame). He was also given a Aden G.S.M.
harry.gibbon
30-05-2009, 23:25
Verily and thus; ... one does what one does ... and questions "supernumery versus complimentary billet" ... and my interest in the effects of accelerated advancement on youngsters being adults whilst still juniors:confused::rolleyes: Little h
Mousey,
They are references to the original letters of instructions given by the Admiralty, a trawl through the London Gazette would find them or reference to them.
They would be incorporated in Drafting Regulations and Advancement Regulations at a latter date.
Regards Charles
harry.gibbon
31-05-2009, 19:36
Right-e-oh then me boyos...
Naval Ratings Handbook 1954 B.R. 1938 Dated 29th December 1954 and in operation on my date of entry has a section 4 EDUCATION.
I have lifted the following from that contained on page 60:-
AB's test in arithmetic and dictation..... is of course the qualification for "Able" rate.
ET 1 it is the qualification for Leading Rate
ET11 taken instead of ETI by selected boys, who by passing it, may gain seniority
HET much harder examination divided into nine subjects each of which may be taken seperately. It is the qualifying examination for selection for promotion to Acting Sub-Lieutenant (Executive or (S) Branch) from the lower deck, and for promotion to Commissioned rank(Branch List).
Also:-
on Page 58 in the section on Drafting and Advancement there is the following paragraph:_
Advancement to "Able Seaman" is governed by the time served in the lower rate and is subject to the man being qualified and recommended. Such advancement may be accelerated by a few months as a result of reaching a high standard while under training or of having passed ET11.
Hope this helps, all this is of course contained in the two 'bibles' issued without exception to all Ganges boys ... yeh I know ... why didn't I look at mine (which I obviously still have) first.:o
Little h
Gentlemen I have just returned from an E.Sussex bowling green (Drake would not be amused. We were hammered) and am a bit overwhelmed with your responses now totaling 22 posts. Thank you. I need a Sec with a gift for research. With respect, we need to keep Boys to O.D. separate from Juniors to O.D. Boys could be recruited from the age of 15 but this came to an end, as I understand it, with the legal requirement of boys being required to stay in full time education until 16. Obviously Boys completed their training and were drafted to their first ships well before their entitlement to become O.D.'s whereas - perhaps - Juniors would be close or within the entitlement to become O.D.'s on completion of their training? Lt. Joseph, Charles. I would be grateful if you would trawl the London Gazette as suggested or let me know what the link is and I will give it a go unless of course Little H~ H=Hairless? would try? Am I correct in thinking he has forsaken his bright red motor bike and has come back into the Grey Funnel Line fold? C u all later a weary Mousey.
Right-e-oh then me boyos...
Naval Ratings Handbook 1954 B.R. 1938 Dated 29th December 1954 and in operation on my date of entry has a section 4 EDUCATION.
I have lifted the following from that contained on page 60:-
AB's test in arithmetic and dictation..... is of course the qualification for "Able" rate.
ET 1 it is the qualification for Leading Rate
ET11 taken instead of ETI by selected boys, who by passing it, may gain seniority
HET much harder examination divided into nine subjects each of which may be taken seperately. It is the qualifying examination for selection for promotion to Acting Sub-Lieutenant (Executive or (S) Branch) from the lower deck, and for promotion to Commissioned rank(Branch List).
Also:-
on Page 58 in the section on Drafting and Advancement there is the following paragraph:_
Advancement to "Able Seaman" is governed by the time served in the lower rate and is subject to the man being qualified and recommended. Such advancement may be accelerated by a few months as a result of reaching a high standard while under training or of having passed ET11.
Hope this helps, all this is of course contained in the two 'bibles' issued without exception to all Ganges boys ... yeh I know ... why didn't I look at mine (which I obviously still have) first.:o
Little h
Thanks very much Lit. H. Just seen yours. Will see what the Ganges gang have to say and let you all know in due course. Mousey.
harry.gibbon
01-06-2009, 13:44
Mousey your post #24 above... ref to the red Honda CB400/4 (like wot i used ter ave) and its disappearance.
That was a holding arrangement untill I could fettle the replacement pic of the Falmouth ...
Reason for inclusion can be found in RN Ships and Crews Forum; My Favourite Ship, Whats Yours Thread postings #27; #38; #47 and #61:)
Little h
Joined St Vincent aged 15 and on completion of training was rated Junior Seaman went to Cambridge to do PJT for HMS Cavendish rated Ordinary Seaman at age 17yrs 6mths I had ETLR as it was then, but a couple of my M8s who were the same draft did not get rated OD till they reached 18 no idea of the significanse of this.
Guz rating
18-09-2009, 21:15
When I joined the navy I was seventeen and two months, and was paid the full rate. I think it was £9 every two weeks. It seemed like a fortune at the time.
Alan
9 pounds every two weeks Huh.
Didn't we feel rich in those days. 10 shillings and we had a good run ashore and still had enought for "big eats" from the greasy spoon on the way back on board!
I might add that as an O/Seaman I received 17pounds per fortnight. 18 pounds when I reached the dizzy heights of Able Seaman.
harry.gibbon
18-09-2009, 22:34
Yep and for you two the loose change would have been GROATS:);):p:D:rolleyes:
Wow, now there is a load to take in. From an outsiders point of view you would sit your ETLR. If you passed it to ET 1 standard you could have been awarded six months advancement that would have followed you through the service, ergo OD at seventeen and a half. But man's time would not start until you were 18.
I gained three months advancement on trade training which stuck with me up the rosters. Of course it was just hard work, diligence and using the system that made me a CPO in ten years and nine months from joining in 1963.:rolleyes:
Guz rating
19-09-2009, 14:47
Yep and for you two the loose change would have been GROATS:);):p:D:rolleyes:
Groats and I surppose you think our tot was Mead. Methinks a line to "Age Concern". is in order here. To investigate age discrimination, What do you think QPR Dave,
Alan
Whilst I don' want to say anything derogatory about my good mate, the Scottish/Scouse/Super Golly. I think that he has to lay off the hooch in the Wardroom and have some of that soup that the Barsteward is trying to palm off on to us.
As far as the education at Ganges is concerened. It was called N.A.M.E.T when I was there. Shortly after joining the Main Establishment we had to take it. We had to get a Grade of 7-7 (Maths and English) to be able to stay in he Navy. 5-5 was the grade to be educationally passed for Leading Hand. If I remember rightly, You needed a higher grade than 7-7 for the communicators. We were all given a second chance to pass or better our score later. If the communiactors failed to get the required level but were above 7-7, they were transferred to one of the other branches. The communicators thing is a bit hazy so I might be wrong. Those who failed the 7-7, the second time was discharged as educationally unfit.
On the Undaunted, were were given the opportunity to take it again for those who didn't make the Leading Hand grade.
I think that the grade 0-0 was G.C.E. grade
alanbenn
19-09-2009, 18:44
Dave, the N.A.M.E.T exam was also during my time at Ganges.
Electricians had to obtain at least a 5-5 or higher. If they failed they could resit, if no improvement they had to change branches, the grades were 3-3 equivalent to GCE, 2-2 equivalent to 'O' level, 1-1 equivalent to 'A' level IIRC. Don't remember there being a 0-0 (but it may have changed at sometime)
Everyone sat the exam twice to try and improve their marks.
Sadly it was not recognised outside the navy as a qualification and still isn't.
Neither was my Electrical training recognised as an official trade, yet the education was far more advanced than any of my mates undertook in 'civvy street' at the time in the same trade.
Regards
Alan
Guz rating
19-09-2009, 19:04
As far as the education at Ganges is concerened. It was called N.A.M.E.T when I was there. Shortly after joining the Main Establishment we had to take it. We had to get a Grade of 7-7 (Maths and English) to be able to stay in he Navy. 5-5 was the grade to be educationally passed for Leading Hand. If I remember rightly, You needed a higher grade than 7-7 for the communicators. We were all given a second chance to pass or better our score later. If the communiactors failed to get the required level but were above 7-7, they were transferred to one of the other branches. The communicators thing is a bit hazy so I might be wrong. Those who failed the 7-7, the second time was discharged as educationally unfit.
On the Undaunted, were were given the opportunity to take it again for those who didn't make the Leading Hand grade.
I think that the grade 0-0 was G.C.E. grade
Very interesting Dave, I remember sitting a test at the recruitment centre. Which I found quite easy, because I had just left school. We did not do the G.C.E. we sat the Intermediate which really was the Baca Laureate. Get one subject wrong and you failed. I failed in Irish, in the other subjects I was marked high. I belive it has changed now, I went to the same school as Terry Wogan. He was a couple of years ahead of me, and no I don't remember him.
Alan.:):):)
You are probably right about that, Alan. I did know that there was one or two that had to have a higher namet than us seamen. I don't know why 0-0 came into my head. I must have dreamt it whilst over at the Annexe. (Only way I would get that high a result).
I got 6-4 on my first attempt and 5-2 on my second. So.... I could have been a Greenie on my second attempt.
By the way. Do you remember if it was possible to change branches whilst at Ganges. I don't remember hearing about it happening.
I am surprised that your Electrical training was not recognised outside. RN Electricians must have had experience of every type of electrical systems that are out there. Perhaps it was because you were not experiences at breaking into walls to do rewiring and repairing the brickwork afterwards!!!!!!
harry.gibbon
19-09-2009, 20:32
Pussers Greenies could have membership in a section of my original Union the EETPU so there was a recognition to be had!!!
Little h
Guz rating
19-09-2009, 21:46
Is the difference ships are AC wiring and domestic wiring is DC. We used Marine electrical engineers on the platforms.
alanbenn
20-09-2009, 00:41
Dave, the main reason we were not qualified outside the RN is that most unions did not accept our training as a served apprenticeship, when I left I was offered jobs at Marconi and also at Plessey, however I declined both as I had already seen dramatic changes in our fleet strength and was concerned about job losses, within 2 years both companies up here were closed, so I made the right choice there.
With regards to changing branches at 'ganges' they asked for volunteers to do 'comms' a couple of lads from our class went along, given a quick morse code exercise and then interview, they passed the test, however were told at the interview it would be unwise to give up the electrical branch for comms, so they stayed with us.
I thought that was a bit condescending myself, as it was always rammed down our throats that every branch of the navy was equally reliant on each other, yet here were officers more or less saying moving to comms would be a backward step.
The electrical branch at that time consisted of 3 branches, Radio electrical, control electrical and Ordanance electrical.
Of 2 classes consisting of about 50, only myself and 3 others got Radio electrical, our pass marks were all over 95%, mine was 98%.
My 2 best mates ended up as 1 control, his pass was 79%, and the other was Ordanance, his pass was only 63%, so even in our branch there was a hint of superiority.....Radio was classed as the 'creme de la creme'
I went on to work with teleprinters and got to work with many comms lads during my time.
My best mate ended up as my brother-in-law and he was a stoker.
Regards
Alan.
ps. If Guz rating is reading this, ships were D/C, households electrics are A/C........I hope you call an engineer if your electrics go 'bang':p
Trade Union recognition was similar in the FAA. As an air mechanic I was rated as an Air Fitter at PO and CPO. We were recognised as fitters in civvie street. Guys that side stepped and went along the mechanicians route were classed as mechanics and not recognised.
Changes were made and we were stripped of out Air Fitter branch and were renamed POAM and CAEM reverting to mechanics. The mechanicians were recognised as articifers.
whomesir
15-11-2009, 19:24
My history sheets are buried up in the loft but when I joined Ganges you were either seaman or comms. When I attended the recruiting centre and had the the medical I was told i had defective colour vision - i.e. could'nt tell white from yellow at a distance - therefore coul'nt be a seaman and had to be a boy tel - so i joined as a definitive B/Tel. As regards advancement - lived in the boys mess until 171/2 and then rated O/Tel - did have ET2 tho'
Dave Hutson
16-11-2009, 11:20
Me all same whomesir without the colour problem, but I do remember I only wanted to be a Sparker and got it.
Alan,
Everyone had their place and in the late 60's/70's many of we Comms we eternally thankful we had you Teleprinter Greenies around what with equipment designed for one speed running at a higher speed. I used to stand and watch bits falling off with our T/P Mech doing his nut trying to keep two out ten running at any one time.
Dave H
vBulletin® v3.6.7, Copyright ©2000-2013, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.