NEWS: NZ unhappy with Oz-built ships

[kookaburra]

An item from The Sunday Age today: the heading and lede paras are confusing. As far as I can work out the real problem appears to be with two patrol boats for which the RNZN is presently refusing to accept delivery, rather than frigates - but they are also unhappy it seems with their Anzac Class ships.


Biggest losers: NZ rejects our 'fat' frigates
Josh Gordon
May 3, 2009


NEW Zealand is claiming two Australian-built frigates are unseaworthy and refusing to accept the vessels, leaving them in limbo at the Williamstown docks.

Revelations about the dispute are embarrassing for Canberra, which has just announced a multibillion-dollar investment in naval shipbuilding as the centrepiece of a new defence white paper.

Shortcomings in the construction of the Otago and Wellington patrol vessels have also disrupted New Zealand's naval expansion, with its Defence Minister, Wayne Mapp, describing the project as "a mess".

Defence contractor BAE Systems, which inherited the deal to build the vessels after taking over defence builder Tenix last year, has confirmed to The Sunday Age that two patrol vessels ordered by New Zealand in 2004 have been rejected, and both parties are now locked in mediation.

The New Zealand Government is claiming that the vessels, each worth about $70 million, would be about 100 tonnes overweight and unable to sail in Antarctic waters, with insufficient allowance for extra equipment to be added.

"(The two vessels) are the subject of mediation between ourselves and the New Zealand Government," a BAE spokesman said.

"There are a range of issues that are yet to be settled before the customer will accept those vessels. We need to be comfortable that we are prepared to enter into an arrangement with them."

"So we are basically in negotiations and that's ongoing, but at this stage those vessels have not yet entered service."

Dr Mapp, who travelled to Melbourne in February for talks with BAE Systems, has described the project in the New Zealand media as "a mess which we are working hard to clean up". The vessels were among seven ordered as part of New Zealand's $400 million "Project Protector", all of which had been due at the end of 2007.

Of the seven vessels that had originally been ordered from Tenix, only one, the multi-role HMNZS Canterbury, is now in service, with four small patrol vessels due to become operational within weeks.

But even the Canterbury has been plagued by problems, with design flaws reportedly restricting operations.

The New Zealand Navy has also been reported as saying the Gemini rigid-hulled inflatable boats that were to be supplied with all the ships do not meet requirements and is demanding Zodiacs instead.

The Otago and the Wellington were given sea trials last year, and the ships were said to be ready for delivery, but last November their crews of 70 were sent home while "contractual issues" were negotiated.

The BAE Systems spokesman said it remained unclear when the vessels would be delivered, because the dispute had yet to be resolved.

The biggest concern remains the weight of the ships. An ice protection belt, installed so the ships can be used in the Ross Sea, would sit below the waterline when extra weight was added for operational equipment and repairs.

It was critical that the ice belt sat on the waterline, especially as a build-up of ice on the ships would add extra weight, a Defence Ministry official said.

[astraltrader]

Interesting Jeff. I hope that New Zealand manage to get this sorted out eventually...

[Williamc]

As yet there ships arn't in service still

The first picture is the second ship wellington on the slip way on lunch day

and the second picture is the 2 ships sitting next to each other otago on the left wellington on the right during fit out

[astraltrader]

Thanks for the pictures. Have you any idea when they are now due to be completed??

[Williamc]

umm no i was ment to be on the commissioning crew but now i'm on a promotion course instead

[Robert McDougall]

Hope we have the same problems with the chinese locos. I did see the RNZN web site that the inshore craft have been launched. Wonder how successful these are?

[JarrowDave]

You do know that Sir Les Patterson is C in C Royal Australian Navy Construction, don't you.

I will mention this matter to England's Cricket Team, and we'll give them the lickings of a dog in this years ashes series, but only on your behalf.

Seeing as how you don't seem to be able to do it yourself.

I blame the fact that your both permanetly hanging upside down. The blood must be rushing to your heads.

JD

[Williamc]

Start of this month or end of last? the first ship OTAGO was was accepted my NZMOD and commisioned into the RNZN and the second ship WELLINGTON will soon follow

[astraltrader]

Great news for the New Zealand Navy, William.

If you are able to send any more pictures of these fine looking warships then I would love to see them! :)

[John Odom]

The acceptance of the ship is good news, ONLY if it meets the needs of the Royal New Zealand Navy.

[Williamc]

Yeah OTAGO is compleating sea safety trials with her crew in Melbourne ATM and will be alongside in Devonport, Auckland on the 26th of march so will hopefully be back on board for a look and a catch up with the Chief Stoker

[kookaburra]

Well, I first posted the newspaper article referring to this problem 11 months ago. I haven't seen any recent updates, but here is a photo I took of Wellington and Otago at the BAE Systems dockyard at Williamstown today. If you view it large you will see HMNZS Otago is closest to the camera.

Seems to have been some slippage on the schedule William has mentioned below, which was to have the Otago at Devonport on March 26. However, they both look just about ready to go. There are people on the bridge of Otago, I think - although I couldn't see them with the naked eye.

[Old Salt]

Well, I first posted the newspaper article referring to this problem 11 months ago. I haven't seen any recent updates, but here is a photo I took of Wellington and Otago at the BAE Systems dockyard at Williamstown today. If you view it large you will see HMNZS Otago is closest to the camera.

Seems to have been some slippage on the schedule William has mentioned below, which was to have the Otago at Devonport on March 26. However, they both look just about ready to go. There are people on the bridge of Otago, I think - although I couldn't see them with the naked eye.

Apparently Otago sailed for home but suffered engine trouble and had to return to Williamstown !! We await further news

[kookaburra]

Actually, I see the Wikipedia entry on the two ships remains right up to date, including the latest engine difficulties that afflicted HMNZS Otago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMNZS_Otago_(P148)

That link is doing something odd, as if ship's name misspelt - but if you follow the prompt offered it will take you to where I intended, the Otago entry.

Congrats on your two fine-looking new ships RNZN. Despite these rather severe teething problems, I hope all goes well with both ships and all who sail on them form this point on.

[Old Salt]

Actually, I see the Wikipedia entry on the two ships remains right up to date, including the latest engine difficulties that afflicted HMNZS Otago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMNZS_Otago_(P148)

That link is doing something odd, as if ship's name misspelt - but if you follow the prompt offered it will take you to where I intended, the Otago entry.

Congrats on your two fine-looking new ships RNZN. Despite these rather severe teething problems, I hope all goes well with both ships and all who sail on them form this point on.

Thanks for those good wishes, I am sure they will be a credit to both countries. To be honest I have kept well away from the politics of the saga, so willl not comment on those issues ! Damn contractual loggerheads, too much for a simple sailor.
Best regards
Brian

[Old Salt]

HMNZS Otago arrived Auckland today !!
Maybe a couple of years late but home at last.

Sister ship Wellington should not be too far behind.


http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/new-navy-ship-arrives-nearly-two-years-late-3455281

[maccdale]

Anyone know when Wellington is scheduled to arrive in Auckland? Seawaves has it in April....

Best,
Mac

[Old Salt]

Anyone know when Wellington is scheduled to arrive in Auckland? Seawaves has it in April....

Best,
Mac

Hi Mac

I heard the end of April too.

[Old Salt]

An item from The Sunday Age today: the heading and lede paras are confusing. As far as I can work out the real problem appears to be with two patrol boats for which the RNZN is presently refusing to accept delivery, rather than frigates - but they are also unhappy it seems with their Anzac Class ships.


Biggest losers: NZ rejects our 'fat' frigates
Josh Gordon
May 3, 2009


NEW Zealand is claiming two Australian-built frigates are unseaworthy and refusing to accept the vessels, leaving them in limbo at the Williamstown docks.

Revelations about the dispute are embarrassing for Canberra, which has just announced a multibillion-dollar investment in naval shipbuilding as the centrepiece of a new defence white paper.

Shortcomings in the construction of the Otago and Wellington patrol vessels have also disrupted New Zealand's naval expansion, with its Defence Minister, Wayne Mapp, describing the project as "a mess".

Defence contractor BAE Systems, which inherited the deal to build the vessels after taking over defence builder Tenix last year, has confirmed to The Sunday Age that two patrol vessels ordered by New Zealand in 2004 have been rejected, and both parties are now locked in mediation.

The New Zealand Government is claiming that the vessels, each worth about $70 million, would be about 100 tonnes overweight and unable to sail in Antarctic waters, with insufficient allowance for extra equipment to be added.

"(The two vessels) are the subject of mediation between ourselves and the New Zealand Government," a BAE spokesman said.

"There are a range of issues that are yet to be settled before the customer will accept those vessels. We need to be comfortable that we are prepared to enter into an arrangement with them."

"So we are basically in negotiations and that's ongoing, but at this stage those vessels have not yet entered service."

Dr Mapp, who travelled to Melbourne in February for talks with BAE Systems, has described the project in the New Zealand media as "a mess which we are working hard to clean up". The vessels were among seven ordered as part of New Zealand's $400 million "Project Protector", all of which had been due at the end of 2007.

Of the seven vessels that had originally been ordered from Tenix, only one, the multi-role HMNZS Canterbury, is now in service, with four small patrol vessels due to become operational within weeks.

But even the Canterbury has been plagued by problems, with design flaws reportedly restricting operations.

The New Zealand Navy has also been reported as saying the Gemini rigid-hulled inflatable boats that were to be supplied with all the ships do not meet requirements and is demanding Zodiacs instead.

The Otago and the Wellington were given sea trials last year, and the ships were said to be ready for delivery, but last November their crews of 70 were sent home while "contractual issues" were negotiated.

The BAE Systems spokesman said it remained unclear when the vessels would be delivered, because the dispute had yet to be resolved.

The biggest concern remains the weight of the ships. An ice protection belt, installed so the ships can be used in the Ross Sea, would sit below the waterline when extra weight was added for operational equipment and repairs.

It was critical that the ice belt sat on the waterline, especially as a build-up of ice on the ships would add extra weight, a Defence Ministry official said.

Oh dear !! Now back to problems with HMNZS Canterbury again:

Landing craft useless
5:30 AM Thursday Apr 15, 2010
The multi-role HMNZS Canterbury's two landing craft will be replaced because of design flaws which make the bow ramps prone to cracking.
There are also problems loading cargo at sea, and stability issues.
The problems are the latest to affect the fleet of seven ships bought by the Government for $500 million.
Australian builders BAE Systems will pay $85 million, some of which will go towards designing and building two new landing craft medium (LCMs).

I am not sure who Oz Josh Gordon means by 'biggest losers' ??
Builders lost $85 million !!
Mind you, he does not know the difference between frigates and patrol craft !

[Old Salt]

RNZN Media Release 6 May 2010

The Navy’s capability to patrol New Zealand’s coast was boosted today with the formal acceptance of HMNZS WELLINGTON into the Royal New Zealand Navy.

Chief of Navy, Rear-Admiral Tony Parr and Ministry of Defence Project Director Gary Collier formally accepted the Offshore Patrol Vessel, the seventh and last ship in the $500 million Project Protector, at a ceremony in Melbourne.

“WELLINGTON and her sister ship OTAGO are modern ships designed and built to undertake Exclusive Economic Zone patrols, surveillance and military operations around New Zealand, the southern ocean and the Pacific,” said Admiral Parr.

“WELLINGTON and OTAGO have the capability to operate further offshore than our existing patrol vessels, stay at sea longer, and conduct more challenging operations – using their helicopter capability, sea-boats and embarked forces.”

HMNZS WELLINGTON is the seventh and last ship in the Project Protector fleet, and with her delivery the Navy will be operating a fleet of 12 modern and highly capable ships.

“With the completion of Project Protector the Navy can deliver the full range of operations from combat and security missions to peacekeeping, border patrol and humanitarian and disaster relief,” said Admiral Parr.

The delivery crew of HMNZS WELLINGTON will now undertake safety and operational preparations for her delivery voyage to New Zealand.

ENDS

[Old Salt]

From 'Navy Today' , official RNZN publication - April 2010.

Minister of Defence announces Project Protector settlement

Defence Minister, Dr Wayne Mapp, announced in Parliament on 25 February that a settlement has been reached with BAE Systems over Project Protector. The $NZ 500 million project had encountered various problems and delays.
“We have now finished the delivery process of the first of two Offshore Patrol Vessels, the OTAGO. [Delivery of] the second, WELLINGTON, will take place in May. This completes the delivery of the Project Protector Fleet and [the new ships] will be a substantial addition to the Navy,” Dr Mapp said.
He went on to say, “We have now settled the dispute on the defects of the CANTERBURY with BAE Systems, by mediation. BAE has paid $84.6 million to the Crown, based on current exchange rates. We initiated a legal process which resulted in a very good outcome; it will enable a comprehensive rectification of the defects of the CANTERBURY.”
The CANTERBURY has had problems due to the location of its RHIBs (seaboats) in alcoves below the flight deck. The ship lost one boat when heavy waves struck the ship near Auckland in 2007. The damaged RHIB later washed ashore on Great Barrier Island.
An inquiry found flaws in the alcove design, that water entered the cargo deck after the alcove doors were forced open by the sea, and that the ship endured severe rolling.
In October 2007, AHSO Byron Solomon drowned when an RHIB capsized after being lowered into the sea.

[Old Salt]

From 'Navy Today' , official RNZN publication - April 2010

Offshore Patrol Vessels -The question of weight.

Although the OPVs are heavier than designed they are currently well within the weight margin that allows them to operate as specified. The issue is keeping growth in weight within the operating margin over the lifetime of the ships.
The Navy does not expect the additional weight to be a significant operational issue in the short or medium term and will put systems in place to carefully monitor weight gain over the lifetime of the ship.
The OPVs have strengthened hulls which enable them to enter southern waters where ice may be encountered. They are not designed as ice-breakers or to enter Antarctic ice-packs, but have the range and capability to undertake patrols in the Southern Ocean. The ships are currently well within the operating margin for weight, which means the ice-strengthening will be effective in waters where ice may be encountered. Over the life of the ships the weight will need to be monitored to ensure the ships remain within safe limits.

[RANFAN]

I realise that this is old news regarding New Zealand’s OPV but how does a ship off the drawing board end up 100 tons over weight IE different steel more equipment design flaw what?
If it is a design flaw how does that make the builder liable, as it was the RNZN that choose the design, I can understand bad workmanship under warranty but design flaws that what defence is suppose to find when they request info on the ship IE modeling .

[Old Salt]

I realise that this is old news regarding New Zealand’s OPV but how does a ship off the drawing board end up 100 tons over weight IE different steel more equipment design flaw what?
If it is a design flaw how does that make the builder liable, as it was the RNZN that choose the design, I can understand bad workmanship under warranty but design flaws that what defence is suppose to find when they request info on the ship IE modeling .

Hi ..... (Not sure what you mean by IE ??)

I am not a technical person ., but as I understand it ...

The contract was for the two ships was to be built according to the design specifications. The builder's design to meet those specs was accepted .

During construction Navy expressed concern about the weight ... builder said that it would be fine.

It ended up heavier than the design. The question was whether the extra weight would allow the ships to operate as required in the specs. Even warships must meet Lloyd's Survey, especially to operate in the Southern Ocean.

After much deliberation by the experts,the ships were accepted as they could safely meet their designed operating specs.

Brian