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Shipswriter
26-03-2008, 13:00
Greetings to everyone.
I am a new member and I hope that you will all forgive my naivety asking this question. I have just started collecting RN cap tallies and just want to confirm the meaning / significance of the dot that is sometimes seen after the ships name. Does this define a particular era of tally or does it have other significance? Can anyone help?
Many thanks and apologies if I'm asking a question thats been answered many times before.

John Brown
26-03-2008, 13:06
Welcome to the forum Ships.

I expect one of the current or ex matelots will be able to answer this for you soon.


Regards...John

Shipswriter
26-03-2008, 13:18
John

Many thanks for the welcome. I'm not that familiar with forums but I must say this one is particularly interesting.
I hope someone can help me out

herakles
26-03-2008, 19:36
Welcome Shipswriter! It's always good to have another member.

If there's anything about using the forum you don't understand, send me a private message (PM) (Click on User CP)

romft1945
27-03-2008, 07:23
Hi and welcome to the site I have just had a quick at some of my cap tallies and the only one with a dot at the end is a Polish one so sorry cant help Probably a full stop ?
ROM

nogrub
27-03-2008, 10:59
Greetings to everyone.
I am a new member and I hope that you will all forgive my naivety asking this question. I have just started collecting RN cap tallies and just want to confirm the meaning / significance of the dot that is sometimes seen after the ships name. Does this define a particular era of tally or does it have other significance? Can anyone help?
Many thanks and apologies if I'm asking a question thats been answered many times before.

May I also welcome you.

Pre WW11, Tallies, had a full stop after the name.
Post WW11, Tallies, the stop was removed.

More information on cap tallies can be found on Google NHCRA - RN Cap Tallies.

Good luck in your research

Shipswriter
27-03-2008, 18:44
Many thanks everyone for the help and the welcome - much appreciated

Kevin Denlay
28-03-2008, 12:07
An RN cap tally from HMS Electra (supposedly genuine) just sold on eBay for over 250GBP! And here I was biding 70GBP thinking I had a chance! Yeah, right, fat chance!

K

Pelican
27-04-2009, 16:46
The following may be of interest? I am told that pre war cap ribbons bore a fullstop after the ships name and are quite rare. I have 2, Pelican and Mermaid, both of which were issued post war. Update. Please www.nhcra-online.org/19c/captallies.htm

alanbenn
27-04-2009, 19:14
Mousey, the cap tallies with full stops don't come up for sale that often, if the ones you have are full length, ie. not cut then they can fetch upwards of £100 each. Obviously the popularity of the ship and/or the rarity of them determines how much they would sell for.

But certainly the ones I've seen on ebay sell very well, the average price is usually around £25-£45 but with a few interested bidders can go much higher.

Regards
Alan

bouncer
27-04-2009, 20:46
Guys, I have a tally with "HMS PUNCHESTON" the quotation marks are actualy on the tally, any ideas why....... It was given to me by my sea daddy, an old 3 badge AB on the Reclaim.

Gary

Jan Steer
28-04-2009, 07:43
You are correct Mousey. They do have a full stop after the name. I have a collection of ribbons, some my own and some ww1. I have ROB ROY uncut and unused and even an unused Italian one from "EMMANUELE FILIBERTO". I guess they must both be quite rare.

best wishes
Jan

jim7966
20-08-2009, 22:32
Hi there,

Just throwing this out there on the off chance there may be a collector who has what I'm looking for.

Canadian cap tallies. Buy/Sell/Trade, whichever you prefer.

Please e-mail me at jim7966@sympatico.ca

Thank you very much.

fearless_rs
29-09-2009, 08:45
What about misspelt tallies? I can remember Navy News reporting a wrong batch of H.M.S. BOSINGTON instead of H.M.S. BOSSINGTON.

Pedlar
29-09-2009, 09:46
Cap tallies with full stops were phased out around 1956 depending on stocks held. Care has to be taken when buying cap tallies, vessels built 1940-45 did not normally have named tallies unless they remained in commission after 1945

Doc
29-09-2009, 11:48
Another thing regarding cap tallies, if I may divert the current discussion.

With regards to the wearing of tallies bearing the ships name or "H.M.S." or "HM DESTROYERS" etc during wartime.

I am constantly receiving 'helpful' advice from veterans saying in no uncertain terms that images we hold are faked and that during the war all cap tallies read "HMS" only, for secrecy reasons etc....

Now, I understand that many of the photographs the museum holds are to some degree posed but there are an awful large number of images where the cap tally still reads the name of the ship even as late as 1943/4. Sometimes these names are incorrect but more often than not they are correct. This is particularly the case with shore establishments.

My three guesses (and they are just that) would be:

1) It took time for the policy to be phased in
2) I am guessing the wearing of shore establishments didn't matter as much due to the fact that the location of a dockyard wasn't in question even to the enemy.
3) People just ignored it due to pride and/or esprit d'corps

I am planning to go to the national archives to see if I can find the AFO which forbides the wearing of named tallies (if it exists) but in the meantime I wouldn't mind hearing you opinions.:confused:

Ian

siggy63
29-09-2009, 17:03
Hello Folks
the original link at the start of this thread shows a page done by yours truely. I obtained information from not only the RN Museum and Library but also from the Greenwich Maritime Museum.

Unfortunately for my sins am also an avid tally collector and to date have been offered some good deals/trades etc... but have also been offered some right do-do.

HMS etc.. during WWII, depends on where the rating came from, if from a shore base and he was an old salt the chances are that he would have an old tally from previous visit - a lot of those going to sea would therefore keep their shore base tally on their white cap and use their issued HMS tally for their working cap.

The dreaded full stop, yep what has been mentioned is correct, if you are being offered a tally or see one on ebay then before you bid have a quick check on ships status and make sure it would have been around prior to WWII.

Unfortunately the same sort of weave was used right up to the early 1960s and at that time a lot of 25th anniversaries came around so lots of reproductions flooded the market and these are now being offered as genuine. Later issues are easy to spot as weave changed completely and the German manufacturered ones are even easier to spot as the thread used changed colour.

A good Full Stop tally should cost no more than £50 for a normal unit but if lost in action then it increases accordingly. Example a Royal Naval Division cap tally purchased 5 years ago for £20, now you would be lucky to find a genuine one for less than triple that price.....

If I can be of any help to others then dont hesitate to drop us a ditty.

Yours Aye
Danny

james_harvey
30-09-2009, 11:13
I have the wedding photo when Ted Biggs married my great aunt in 1943.

Ted survived the loss of hood as an ordinary signalman, yet in the photo he is a leading signalman with a Hood cap tally. I think as you say the sailors took a pride int heir ships and if they served pre war then they would have spares.

Regards

James

nogrub
02-10-2009, 09:56
Danny.
I have recently obtained a book named Naval and Maritime Badges and Insignia of World War 2 by Guido Rosignolia published by Blandford Press, Poole, Dorset.
It is interesting and covers GB, USSR, Denmark, Germany, France, Italy, USA, Japan, Poland, Netherlands, and Finland. I dont know if it is still available, but it is an intresting reference on badges and Tallies.
Regards
Harry

fearless_rs
02-10-2009, 21:37
When out the Gulf onboard Charybdis in 1990, the rig for leaving harbour (Jebel Ali, Dubai) was No.10s (Whitefront, White shorts), with Cherry B Baseball Caps. On our return to Pompey, it was No10s, this time with caps.
I think our Captain didnt want to push the tropical rig too much.

Guz rating
14-10-2009, 13:49
I always thought cap tallies would be a great thing to collect, but it sounds like there might be some repros out there. I remember being put on a charge for not having the bow over my left ear.:confused:

Alan

stontamar
14-10-2009, 18:04
Collected cap ribbon for close on 50 years and I absolutely confirm that the market is awash with reproduction and fake ribbons extending to include examples held by some of the national museums. My advice is if you cannot tell the difference between these and genuine examples don't spend a lot of money and better still don't spend any money, the message must be buyer be aware.

How's this for a rare ribbon; SMS HINDENBURG found in a compartment when the ship was salvaged and taken into Rosyth. The ribbon was quite badly damaged by sea water and was impregnated by rust but I had it professionally cleaned, treated and conserved and then mounted on card. It was given to me when I was in my early teens by a neighbour who had worked as a diver on the salvage.

To any sailors who visited Whitby in the 1950's and who ended up rolling back on board with cap minus ribbon - I'm sorry!!!

stontamar

Guz rating
14-10-2009, 22:09
Collected cap ribbon for close on 50 years and I absolutely confirm that the market is awash with reproduction and fake ribbons extending to include examples held by some of the national museums. My advice is if you cannot tell the difference between these and genuine examples don't spend a lot of money and better still don't spend any money, the message must be buyer be aware.

How's this for a rare ribbon; SMS HINDENBURG found in a compartment when the ship was salvaged and taken into Rosyth. The ribbon was quite badly damaged by sea water and was impregnated by rust but I had it professionally cleaned, treated and conserved and then mounted on card. It was given to me when I was in my early teens by a neighbour who had worked as a diver on the salvage.

To any sailors who visited Whitby in the 1950's and who ended up rolling back on board with cap minus ribbon - I'm sorry about

stontamar

Thank you Stontamar for your kind advice, I shall certainly do a lot of research before I commit myself. Lovely story about the SM Hindenburg cap ribbon.

Regards

Alan

prattmision
15-02-2010, 10:15
Perhaps someone has an interest in World Naval Cap Tallies...?

If so, please visit my site (which I'm sure is available via search engines - kc)

alanbenn
15-02-2010, 12:44
Is this a genuine post or just an advertisement?

A quick glance at your site tells me your cap tallies look in good condition, but are somewhat over-priced.

Regards
Alan

Derek Dicker
15-02-2010, 13:53
couldnt agree more Alan..

Derek

siggy63
15-02-2010, 14:37
Hello Rob
Good to see you still breathing mate....

Danny

siggy63
15-02-2010, 14:47
Is this a genuine post or just an advertisement?

A quick glance at your site tells me your cap tallies look in good condition, but are somewhat over-priced.

Regards
Alan

Gents
Before you go any further it may be that Rob is a friend from many years back so please take in a constructive way.

Prices: Had a quick look at Robs site (being a tally nut myself) and not sure where you get your tallies from gents but do let us know........ Rob has Royal Yacht tally priced at 25 Euros......... not sure of exchange rate but ebay seller is flogging one internationally at starting price of £25 plus postage. Rob has others ranging from 7 Euros to 40 Euros including Bahamas (hard to get), South Africa (do not use tallies any more). To pay 40 Euros for a South African naval tally I think isnt bad!

Condition: if any of you do collect tallies then ones I've traded with Rob in the past have been good.

Happy collecting Gents.

Danny

siggy63
15-02-2010, 14:49
Perhaps someone has an interest in World naval cap-tallies...?

If so, please visit my site: (which I'm sure is available via search engines - kc)

Mate
You should have stated if advertisement/business or just selling off your collection - how many you got left...........

Danny

alanbenn
15-02-2010, 20:24
Danny, I appreciate he may be a mate, but a first post which just gives a web address advertising cap tallies is a bit strange.

I'm sure Kc will decide what action to take regarding the post.

My experience of cap tallies for sale suggests he's a bit over-priced, so we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

His Royal Yacht one for 25 euros (almost) £25 in particular.

Here's navy-blues price on their website....

http://www.navybluememorabilia.co.uk/prodimages/royal%20yacht.jpg Cap Tally - ROYAL YACHT.
Brand new cap ribbon
Price: £10.00

Regards
Alan

steve roberts
15-02-2010, 20:52
Hi Alan.Not being a cap tally collector,I have found them much cheaper on other memorabilia sites...Regards Steve.

prattmision
16-02-2010, 08:30
Hi Danny, hi guys!

Sorry for causing a small chaos... Yes, I am Danny's old mate from Canada (right now Germany)

Yes, I am selling my old collection bit by bit. So, I thought some chums here may be interested....

Price... well everything is relative... Danny, can you remember the guy in Chatham... that in 1997 (!) was asking 80 quids for the RNVR London cap tally. You were trying to negotiate the price but he would not budge...?

Well, if there is interest just let me know, eh!

Cheers guys!

Rob

P.S. Danny send me your email again ok...

siggy63
16-02-2010, 09:34
Hello Rob
Good to see its you mate, hope all well in Germany.

As for the tallies, well all I can say is the more discussion over the tallies the better. Have been collecting now for many many years and am still offered tallies for sale that have never been officially produced but claimed to be genuine LOL.

A few companies still offer tallies from units long gone for sale and these are now well encamped in many collections, you only got to look at ebay to see them going thru from any from 99p to £50+

Biggest giveaway is the type of weave on reverse, currently a KGV tally on ebay and yes I know the seller (another collector) nice bloke but he doesnt mention the fact its a repro only full length, he got bidders and its over £8

Please list sites here that sell cheaper tallies as I would love to sneak some more past "she who must be obeyed" LOL she is getting better at finding my hiding places...... still it keeps the old grey matter ticking over.

Rob, give ebay a go mate you might find it easier, oh yes seeing as we know each other do I get a GOOD discount LOL

Danny

alanbenn
16-02-2010, 10:27
Danny, hope I didn't upset you mate, just wanted to give a bit of advice to make things easier for you to sell them.

Siggy's advice to give ebay a go is good, currently a Hms Hood (dot) cap tally has enticed a bid of £50.

There's another Royal Yacht tally for just £1.99

You never can tell.

I had a collection of around 300 tallies which I sent home to my kid brother when he was about 8 years old until he was 18.

Daft B####R gave them away to a fella in Germany when he was in the Army........wasn't you by any chance:D

Regards
Alan

prattmision
16-02-2010, 11:24
Hi Danny, Hi guys!

What I am offering right now are the doubles from my collection. My old "treasure" tallies are still intact, almost 3000 tallies form ca. 90 different countries. Holding right now to it as a "pension investment" ;-)

Danny, can you remember our hunt for treasures in 1997? :-)

As far as the price I am always open to suggestions. Don't forget I am an old colonial ouphe... Hey, you big one man! Buy 10 get 1 free! :-) Just don't touch my wife...

Danny, is "J" still watching over your fingers?

T.T.

Rob

P.S. As an old collector I've always hated "repros" and would never try to push one as a genuine one.

siggy63
16-02-2010, 13:51
Alan - no offence taken mate, already been told off on this forum but water of a ducks back LOL.

Currently managed to sneak around 9000 past "she who must be obeyed" and I still get tallies thru the post from other collectors asking me to confirm whether they brought a good one or a duff one. Most can be sorted via photos but some I like to take and compare against the warehouse stores of NMM.

Last Hood tally that went thru on ebay reached around the £300 mark so I think the current one is just being watched and bidding will go up when it gets closer to the end time, the full stop ones are going crazy on ebay and I've stopped bidding on them for now. It doesn't help that ebay have hidden bidders names as we all knew each others and tried not to gazump each other.

Rob: Buy 10 get one free thats not a discount you cheeky youngster I was thinking along the lines of sending all for free LOL drop us a line as I melted my RBDF tally on the heater and despite my letters they haven't sent me a replacement one....

Danny

jim7966
20-02-2010, 12:43
Doc,

On Google images I came across a picture of Canadian AFO that stated it has come to their attention that men are wearing cap tallies that say HMC Destroyer, or HMC Minesweeper and the practice must stop. Now try as I might I can't find the image again. Also in the book "Sailor, A Pictorial History" page 141 published in 1977 there is a picture of a signalman wearing a tally (only the half of it visible) but it clearly says "Destroyer". So I would guess that these tallies were probably purchased ashore and used in place of "HMS" or "HMCS" without authorization.

TrotOneLower
21-02-2010, 09:28
Should you want Cap Tallies, or anything else for you memory box, this is a good place to go: http://www.navybluememorabilia.co.uk/default.asp

stanley
23-02-2010, 07:04
Hello Folks
the original link at the start of this thread shows a page done by yours truely. I obtained information from not only the RN Museum and Library but also from the Greenwich Maritime Museum.

Unfortunately for my sins am also an avid tally collector and to date have been offered some good deals/trades etc... but have also been offered some right do-do.

HMS etc.. during WWII, depends on where the rating came from, if from a shore base and he was an old salt the chances are that he would have an old tally from previous visit - a lot of those going to sea would therefore keep their shore base tally on their white cap and use their issued HMS tally for their working cap.

The dreaded full stop, yep what has been mentioned is correct, if you are being offered a tally or see one on ebay then before you bid have a quick check on ships status and make sure it would have been around prior to WWII.

Unfortunately the same sort of weave was used right up to the early 1960s and at that time a lot of 25th anniversaries came around so lots of reproductions flooded the market and these are now being offered as genuine. Later issues are easy to spot as weave changed completely and the German manufacturered ones are even easier to spot as the thread used changed colour.

A good Full Stop tally should cost no more than £50 for a normal unit but if lost in action then it increases accordingly. Example a Royal Naval Division cap tally purchased 5 years ago for £20, now you would be lucky to find a genuine one for less than triple that price.....

If I can be of any help to others then dont hesitate to drop us a ditty.

Yours Aye
Danny

Hi there Danny, just seen the tally page and would like to ask you if it is possible to get just a print out of some to put in my photo albums,i've finally got round to it, I need 8 to finish all 1950/60s, thanks for any help, STAN

Dreadnought
23-02-2010, 07:58
I am not collector of cap tallies ... as if I haven't got enough to collect ...!! But I was given these some years ago, and believe them to be genuine. They are full length, one looks as though it has been tied at the ends at some time in it's life.


Best viewed magnified

siggy63
24-02-2010, 08:06
I am not collector of cap tallies ... as if I haven't got enough to collect ...!! But I was given these some years ago, and believe them to be genuine. They are full length, one looks as though it has been tied at the ends at some time in it's life.


Best viewed magnified

Clive
Both tallies still in use by Pusser so you got no problems with those ones mate

Danny

siggy63
24-02-2010, 08:07
Hi there Danny, just seen the tally page and would like to ask you if it is possible to get just a print out of some to put in my photo albums,i've finally got round to it, I need 8 to finish all 1950/60s, thanks for any help, STAN

Stan
What ones you looking for mate I will see what I got and act accordingly.

Danny

stanley
24-02-2010, 13:58
Hi Danny, I would like to get Indefatigable,Sheffield,Surprise,Morecambe Bay, Phoenicia,Glentham, Davenham(H/kong flotilla) Tamar and Victoria barracks
(Southsea) I do hope I am not asking to much, and I thank you for any help, STAN

Doc
25-02-2010, 15:17
Doc,

On Google images I came across a picture of Canadian AFO that stated it has come to their attention that men are wearing cap tallies that say HMC Destroyer, or HMC Minesweeper and the practice must stop. Now try as I might I can't find the image again. Also in the book "Sailor, A Pictorial History" page 141 published in 1977 there is a picture of a signalman wearing a tally (only the half of it visible) but it clearly says "Destroyer". So I would guess that these tallies were probably purchased ashore and used in place of "HMS" or "HMCS" without authorization.

Thnaks Jim, thats quite useful. I wonder if something similar happened this side of the pond. Furthermore, the practice of wearing named tallies must have carried on in some quarters - even if it was outlawed in 1940.

I gues it is going to be a trip to the archives!

Doc

Dick
07-03-2010, 10:40
Doc,

Some "evidence" for you: Norfolk Navy Yard 1941 (probably July)...not sure why 129 given her pendant number was 67

alanbenn
07-03-2010, 11:19
Dick, up until 1940 aircraft carriers were allocated pennant numbers with prefix letter I, so her pennant number was probably I-29. After 1940 the prefix I was allocated to destroyers.

Regards
Alan

Fred C
27-05-2010, 13:35
Hi all,
I wonder if anyone knows the best place to buy authentic RN cap tallies from
:)

Mitch Hinde
19-07-2010, 22:35
I have "Commander Far East Fleet", does this qualify as one the longest.
The last T almost disappeared in the bow over your left ear.

Mitch

ceylon220
21-07-2010, 21:24
Remember seeing this young lass in Portsmouth in 1958 sporting a skirt covered in RN ship cap tallies, often wondered if these were her trophies from past "achievements" with our young matelots ashore;):rolleyes:

Scurs
22-07-2010, 09:11
Wouldn't mind tallies from ship's/establishments I served in......only got one (Keppel), did have (Ceylon) but lost it.!

So Danny........if available, what price roughly and where to buy, for following:-

GANGES, EXCELLENT,CEYLON, ORION,SURPRISE, PHOENICIA, PEMBROKE, AJAX, CHICHESTER.

CYLLA
22-07-2010, 10:16
Here is one of my cap tallies, with a souvenir from a great run ashore in Hamilton ,Bermuda.
I have placed it in the picture frame of the ship
The odd one out is of H.M.S BELLEROPHON,which i was going to put with my H.M.S BELFAST frame,but it did not seem correct.

cylla

stontamar
28-07-2010, 22:08
QUOTE - Thanks Jim, thats quite useful. I wonder if something similar happened this side of the pond. Furthermore, the practice of wearing named tallies must have carried on in some quarters - even if it was outlawed in 1940.

I guess it is going to be a trip to the archives!

Doc

The practise did continue after war started, I have a couple of examples of cap ribbons in my collection issued to ratings drafted to ships that were commissioned post 1939. It would appear these were issued to a limited number of crew for wearing at the ships first commissioning ceremony. I believe they were subsequent withdrawn and the ratings reverted to the wartime standard H.M.S. ribbon. I do not know when this practice ceased.

Other examples seen suggest that ribbons were worn for propaganda purposes, examples of this can be seen in photographs taken of EXETER crew on their return to the UK after the River Plate action and likewise with DORSETSHIRE crew after the action against the BISMARCK.

Regarding the H.M DESTROYER – CRUISERS – MINESWEEPER etc ribbons, these were never official issue although photographs of ratings wearing these ribbons are not too difficult to find. It is one of those examples where Jack is seen to push the boundaries of what he wore as opposed to what he was supposed to wear (official uniform), incidentally a trait not restricted to the lower deck. Presumably the naval tailors had a hand in selling these ribbons but I guess the chances of seeing them worn on board or in the dockyards would be severely limited by the attentions of the regulators. More likely they were worn well aware from the attentions of the naval authorities, for example when the ratings were on home leave.

QUOTE - Some "evidence" for you: Norfolk Navy Yard 1941 (probably July)...not sure why 129 given her pendant number was 67

Dick

Regarding the pictures of ratings wearing H.M.S. FORMIDABLE cap ribbons; my first question would be, can the date and location be verified. Were all the photographs taken at the same time and location and what relevance has the buoy showing HMS I29 or is it 129 and why is the crest not HMS FORMIDABLE’s crest?

If the location is Norfolk (July 1941) what is the mast in the background of the second picture? Presumably the picture post-dates her commissioning in October 1940 added to which the crew are in whites effectively ruling out first commissioning photographs. The mix of ship named ribbons and the standard H.M.S. ribbon in the group photograph also suggests that it was a stage-managed event done for the benefit of the camera. More questions than answers unfortunately!!

Finally a comment regarding the use of the full stop after the ships name and the relevance this has to dating the ribbon. The use of this device continued after the war and was not restricted to ribbons belonging to ships first commissioned before the war. Design of the ribbon, font size and design the material and weave are all important identifying features in assessing those that are authentic ribbons from the reproduction and fake ribbons. There are unfortunately masses of these ribbons offered for sale and, as previously stated, it’s a matter of buyer be aware. It is easy to spend lots of money on worthless junk.

Regards

stontamar

siggy63
31-07-2010, 18:31
Wouldn't mind tallies from ship's/establishments I served in......only got one (Keppel), did have (Ceylon) but lost it.!

So Danny........if available, what price roughly and where to buy, for following:-

GANGES, EXCELLENT,CEYLON, ORION,SURPRISE, PHOENICIA, PEMBROKE, AJAX, CHICHESTER.

Mate
Apologies for delay in getting back to you but been off busy getting myself sorted for daughters wedding, day was good and just had grandkids for 2 weeks (help).

Anyway, the tallies you are after have two choices: (1) check navy news I believe a company who advertise on there will create modern weave tallies of your choice, last time I used them was to create a tally to celebrate my lads birth and this now is pinned above his bedroom door (12 years later).

Other way is to find yourself a decent dealer, I use dave down in Dorset area, he has provided me with some nice tallies over the years and have been using him for almost 10 years if not longer..... his prices seem fair, I dont usually compare dealers on prices as like superstores you will always find a cheaper one eventually. I got his number somewhere, I know he does the military collectors fairs etc... and will dig details for you on my next set of days off (wed/thur coming). Am at a militaria fair in Bromley on Sunday 31st July, will take some numbers if I see tallies you after.

There is another way but sometimes takes a bit of time and that is get "Medal News" and watch out for any militaria fairs in your area and pop along.

As for price - depends on how desperate you are, I have seen stupid prices bound around for tallies and have found myself outpriced for quite common tallies. I refuse to pay over £10 for any unit post war, ignore any stories attached to tallies ie. "I got this of a sailor when he left HMS xyz" etc... if it was that important why they selling it then? dealers sell, collectors would rather trade LOL my HMS Hood cost me zip, came from my uncle whose brother died onboard - is it real, possibly, weave is good, style is relevant but who actually knows my HMS Ramilies cost me zip, got given in pub by old fella who saw some of my spare tallies in Dads saloon bar....

Danny

Scurs
31-07-2010, 20:39
Danny..............looking after Grandchildren?....that just about qualifies you for "CDM & Bar"......or at least Sippers!

Seriously, thanks for your comprehensive reply to my query. Starting with Navy News (copy of which is on table), I shall investigate.............also rummage in spare room, there are still some mysterious boxes to check for absent "Ceylon" tally.......when I moved from Cambridge in 1994, things got put in all sorts of places.........might still have tally........somewhere! :)

stontamar
01-08-2010, 11:18
As a cap ribbon collector for 50 years I must say that the companies that are producing fake and reproduction ribbons are an absolute menace and in any other field of collecting would be shunned by serious collectors and in some cases those selling and manufacturing fakes for profit would be prosecuted. So why do people continue to purchase these fakes?

Another point that I believe should be made is that while the original purchaser may know that they are buying a fake or reproduction ribbon I have seen lots of examples where the original purchaser has passed on the ribbon to their family only for their family to believe it is original. I have even seen this process extended to ribbons held by National museums. Fakes bought in and then either by design or by default being treated as original.

It has made the ribbon collecting hobby one that is fraught with danger for unsuspecting collectors and for those that are unable to identify this rubbish a very costly affair. This commercial practice has, in my opinion, completely spoilt the hobby. I have over 3000 ribbons and very rarely add to this number now due to the state of the hobby.

Final point I would make is that with ribbons produced over the last part of the 20th century and into the 21st it is impossible to identify those that are obtained from a genuine service source and those that have been manufactured for the collectors market. With the old type weaved ribbons there was a minimum batch order so, for example, fakes and reproductions tended to be concentrated on well known ships (HOOD, KELLY and ROYAL NAVY DIVISION being but a few well known prime examples and perhaps even more ludicrously the PRINCE OF WALES falls in to this category) but with the modern computer design products (full width gold thread on the reverse of the ribbon) ribbons with any name or unit can be produced as a one off.

Hope this may help any unsuspecting collectors.

Regards

stontamar

siggy63
01-08-2010, 17:01
As a cap ribbon collector for 50 years I must say that the companies that are producing fake and reproduction ribbons are an absolute menace and in any other field of collecting would be shunned by serious collectors and in some cases those selling and manufacturing fakes for profit would be prosecuted. So why do people continue to purchase these fakes?

Another point that I believe should be made is that while the original purchaser may know that they are buying a fake or reproduction ribbon I have seen lots of examples where the original purchaser has passed on the ribbon to their family only for their family to believe it is original. I have even seen this process extended to ribbons held by National museums. Fakes bought in and then either by design or by default being treated as original.

It has made the ribbon collecting hobby one that is fraught with danger for unsuspecting collectors and for those that are unable to identify this rubbish a very costly affair. This commercial practice has, in my opinion, completely spoilt the hobby. I have over 3000 ribbons and very rarely add to this number now due to the state of the hobby.

Final point I would make is that with ribbons produced over the last part of the 20th century and into the 21st it is impossible to identify those that are obtained from a genuine service source and those that have been manufactured for the collectors market. With the old type weaved ribbons there was a minimum batch order so, for example, fakes and reproductions tended to be concentrated on well known ships (HOOD, KELLY and ROYAL NAVY DIVISION being but a few well known prime examples and perhaps even more ludicrously the PRINCE OF WALES falls in to this category) but with the modern computer design products (full width gold thread on the reverse of the ribbon) ribbons with any name or unit can be produced as a one off.

Hope this may help any unsuspecting collectors.

Regards

stontamar

Mate
Tks for your very serious sounding input! apologies if our little chat about finding an ex-matelot a tally (fake or real) to complete memories seems to have rubbed a sore point but hey ho life goes on.

Collectors soon learn right and wrong, in fact I consider it a right of passage - we all been diddled or in most cases we all just not stepped back and considered the shiney looking tally as being too good to be true - either that or just not having been there seen that or done it, I especially like the collectors who offer me tallies from the trawlers that went down south in '82 - bless em we wore HMS or our last draft or shore base but then again I did have a few made up for crew as mememtoes and I believe so did a lot of other Naval Parties at the time - so thats me in trouble yet again!

You will be pleased to note that the BIG naval museums all have their own systems to check real from fake so the number being stored will be down to all but zero in coming years, most enter after being donated by family members and they are not turned away to save upsetting family who think they are doing what their family member would have wanted.

Still you will be pleased to note that I took great joy in pointing out to a dealer today who was offering a "ROYAL ARTILLERY" pre WWI tally at a very high cost that it was a modern weave tally........ I think the frown and evil glare he gave me said it all....

Danny

jim7966
01-08-2010, 22:39
Found the notice finally.

whalerman
02-08-2010, 10:12
Must get up in the loft.
I have in a box a lot of memorabilia from my navy days including Cap Tallies from Ships/Shore Establishment I served in.

Ganges, Dryad, Virago, Undaunted, Ark Royal, Barossa, Cochrane, Keppel and F.O.S.N.I. (Flag Officer Scotland and Northern Ireland). Unfortunately I never got to wear the FOSNI one as I was promoted to Petty Officer on my Draft to MHQ Pitreavie

Brett Hendey
03-08-2010, 05:39
Like Clive, I am not a collector of tallies, but I have three in my 'naval bits and pieces' collection. They are full length, clearly well worn and named to:
HMS KENYA
HMS ZULU
HMS BULWARK

I feel an attachment to the HMS ZULU one, because I live in a province of South Africa that is overrun with Zulus.

Regards
Brett

prattmision
18-12-2010, 13:13
Are there any collectors of naval cap tallies here?

jainso31
18-12-2010, 15:10
Yes- Why?? Have you got some for sale??


jainso31

prattmision
18-12-2010, 17:28
Yes, I do :) Would you like me to send you a list with photos...? Let me know, eh

Best,

jainso31
18-12-2010, 17:49
PS Ithink that what you are trying to do, is a contravention of the Forum Rules-BE ADVISED!
jainso31

prattmision
19-12-2010, 06:57
Thanks.... That's why I am asking first.... I am not posting anything without interest or permission :o

Best,

ex-LS CN

jbryce1437
19-12-2010, 19:18
There is the option to exchange email addresses via Private Message and communicate with each other that way.

Jim

prattmision
20-12-2010, 09:50
ok, thanks...

Well, I have a lot of World naval cap-tallies... this is my old collection. So, if any body has an interest please drop me a line via private message and I will send you a full list with photos...

Thanks and Merry Christmas to all!:)

prattmision
20-12-2010, 17:47
Yes to your question :-)

I will need to look for the other as I have more than 2800 cap-tallies from all over the World.

Best,

jainso31
24-12-2010, 10:31
pm me re."damage"etc. and I'll take it from there. It must be done by pm.
seasonal greetings
jainso31

prattmision
02-01-2011, 08:27
Hi, I was trying to send you PM but I got a message that you do not accept PMs or you have this function inactive ...???

For the list of cap-tallies you can drop me a line:

rbsorb [at] lycos.com


Happy New Year to all! :)

jainso31
04-01-2011, 09:16
Happy New Year to you-I do not have my Pm function disabled, so far as I am aware; but i will be in touch via email.
jainso31

navyman
31-01-2011, 09:48
Perhaps someone has an interest in World naval cap-tallies...?

If so, please visit my site (which I'm sure is available via search engines - kc)

interested yes but what is` your site

jainso31
31-01-2011, 13:15
This member did not bother to reply when I indicated an interest in a few of his wares.Enough for me!!


jainso31

Nigel999
31-01-2011, 13:34
Speaking of tallies. As a medal collector, I sometimes inherit them along with medals and ephemera and have pondered from time to time on potential value.

One in particular is a LION tally with provenance. When the collector purchased the medals/ephemera from the sailors widow in the late 60's he kept all the correspondence, including mention of paying her extra for the tally. The sailor was in LION at Jutland (bounty paid) and was still serving in her at the time of the surrender of the German Fleet. (His proudest moment according to his widow)

Is it possible to ask what kind of value this tally could hold ? I'll mention I have no intention at all of splitting these items up , (vandalism in my eyes) but I'd be interested to have a rough idea from sheer curiosity.

Cheers, Nigel

jainso31
31-01-2011, 14:05
Nigel I think you have to look at the cap tally as substantial additional provenance-so let us say the group plus tally were £250.The numbers are unimportant.Split the tally off the group and sell for £60 and now the group is worth £150=loss of £40.The value of the tally on its own is immaterial but
its worth is whatever you can get for it-to the detriment of the group.

jainso31

Nigel999
31-01-2011, 15:06
Nigel I think you have to look at the cap tally as substantial additional provenance-so let us say the group plus tally were £250.The numbers are unimportant.Split the tally off the group and sell for £60 and now the group is worth £150=loss of £40.The value of the tally on its own is immaterial but
its worth is whatever you can get for it-to the detriment of the group.

jainso31

I don't think I really made myself clear. When I bought the archive, I paid what was to all intents and purposes the market rate for the medal group alone. The ephemera in this case had no significance on the price I paid.

In fact, the only thing I did know of other than the medals was the sailors parchment.

As I have already clearly stated I have no intention of splitting the items.

So you see, if and when I sell the group, a value for the tally, helps me to accurately assess a reasonable sale price. I know about the medals and other ephemera , but I have not a clue of what to expect value wise for the tally. Helps to set a reserve if selling by auction by example.

jainso31
14-02-2011, 18:17
I have a good trawl through Ebays offerings and prices vary considerably from £130 each for two numbered HTBs to £45 for HMS Agincourt to £6.99 each for a collection incl P.O.W, Repulse and Renown etc .HM Minesweepers £30. I think the value of Lion's tally- is not a set price -it is what someone is willing to pay for it
I said £60 and I think that is about right.

jainso31

siggy63
15-02-2011, 09:56
Hello All
Yep agree with above with regards to the HMS Lion tally - its down to how badly the collector wants the tally for his/hers collection. As you may have spotted from earlier posts around the forum I is not exactly flavour of the month with a few sellers on ebay with regards to tallies, some sellers have even banned me from bidding due to my pointing out the fact that they were listing certain tallies as "Original/Geniune" when the picture showed a modern weave tally - ah well thats life... LOL

Whilst an avid tally collector I would hate to see a tally split from any medal group and if relevant to the medals I buy then I try and get an aged related tally to accompany along with branch/rate badges to enhance the group.

Remember with regards to tallies if its too good to be true then it isnt LOL

Danny

Nigel999
16-02-2011, 14:21
Thanks everybody. It just gives me an idea value wise. Its an interesting little archive.

Cheers, Nigel

jainso31
20-02-2011, 17:24
siggy63
What do you reckon is a reasonable price to pay for a H M MINESWEEPERS
cap tally? Genuine and Repro.


jainso31

siggy63
20-02-2011, 18:36
siggy63
What do you reckon is a reasonable price to pay for a H M MINESWEEPERS
cap tally? Genuine and Repro.


jainso31

Repro - no more than £6 - £8 as that is what I believe a modern tally costs from some of the firms in the back of the Navy News.

Genuine - Full length and in good condition I would hesitate to pay anymore than £25 - £45. Then again I is a tight bugger,

Reasonable - if you found yourself a decent genuine tally for the sweepers then I would say a reasonable price (to lure you back for the more expensive ones) would be around the £25 mark but dealers in military items will definately disagree "I aint a charity mate" LOL

Danny

jainso31
21-02-2011, 07:10
Thank you very much, you have been most helpful.Can you recommend a vendor?

jainso31

siggy63
23-02-2011, 08:12
Mate
get yourself down to W H Smith for the Navy News.... and in the meantime I will dig out some address's of dealers that I've dealt with in the past who I believe have given me a good service (oh that sounds rude LOL)

Danny
P.S. What you after?

Jan Steer
23-02-2011, 09:00
I am not a collector of ribbons particularly but I do have a large bag full that I have acquired over the years. One of these is of "Forth". She was a Mersey class 2nd rate cruiser built in 1886 and scrapped in 1921. She had been converted to a submarine depot ship and the tally was passed to me when I was a boy by an ex-ww1 submariner. I have read all the posts here with interest and wondered if, even though the metal threads have tarnished and are now silver, would it be of any value to a collector of such things?

best wishes
Jan

jainso31
23-02-2011, 10:05
Thanks for the advice siggy,I look forward to learning what dealers have given you good service in the past.

siggy63
27-02-2011, 14:23
I am not a collector of ribbons particularly but I do have a large bag full that I have acquired over the years. One of these is of "Forth". She was a Mersey class 2nd rate cruiser built in 1886 and scrapped in 1921. She had been converted to a submarine depot ship and the tally was passed to me when I was a boy by an ex-ww1 submariner. I have read all the posts here with interest and wondered if, even though the metal threads have tarnished and are now silver, would it be of any value to a collector of such things?

best wishes
Jan

Jan
Yes Mate - I is a collector, sometimes good, sometimes bad but always on the lookout for a nice tally with a story behind it........ Unfortunately with the rise of ebay I now find that many tallies are priced well above what I can sneak past "she who must be obeyed" and frequently find myself in the twilight zone of the MI5 agent when it comes to completing trades/deals and various transactions...... even got a nice jacket with an extra pocket sewn inside the lining to sneak that "Opps did I really pay that much for it" addition to the collection LOL

Danny

rimbo
12-03-2011, 18:33
Hi Danny,
I've been reading these threads with interest,and notice the word repro. popping up.
I have several tallies which i sent my wife during my service time,during late 50's through the 60's.
They all came from genuine caps one way or another usually swapped.
Would you say perhaps they are genuine or when did repro's rear their head?

siggy63
17-03-2011, 08:46
Hi Danny,
I've been reading these threads with interest,and notice the word repro. popping up.
I have several tallies which i sent my wife during my service time,during late 50's through the 60's.
They all came from genuine caps one way or another usually swapped.
Would you say perhaps they are genuine or when did repro's rear their head?

Hello Mate
I would never claim to be an expert on the good old tally, I do work on the idea that if it seems to good to be true then it bent LOL and this seems to upset a lot of sellers on ebay.... ah well

From what I can gather from the guys at National Maritime Museum the dreaded repros have been around for years and years..... but first came to the forefront as the first big celebrations came around after WWII especially as weave types had not changed much between pre and post event in fact some units from pre 1939 were still being issued tallies from that decade right up to their decommission in the late 1950s etc... hence the confusion about things like the dreaded full stop at the end of the name..... Matelots who served on ships during the war wanted souvenirs or mememtoes of their service and business was good...... and not just for the capital ships either

If when I'm searching for a trade/swap or purchase the seller can show me or advise me of where the tally came from then it can usually be put down as original but once again there is always the odd one - example, local RNA club closing down, I get offered some tallies given to them by members - very nice little set but all modern weave... they were crushed as some of the names were old, given to them by ex members who obviously wanted to keep the originals as I would have..... but held in the RNA Club for almost 20 years they thought they were the real deal but unfortunately the RN not had a HMS Prince of Wales since early 1940s and and considering she only sorted in 1939 then cap tallies not exactly falling out of the woodwork (unfortunately)

Ultimely you know where the tallies came from, if you know they are real then they are real mate - unless of course you got HMS Hood, HMS Repulse etc... then I may have to wag my finger at you LOL

Danny

Dave,Notts.
05-04-2011, 16:41
Could anyone please help identify the 2 cap tallies my father was left by his neighbour,they are black in colour with gold writing which says R.N.SIEGE GUNS. Any information would be gratefully recieved thanks.He seems to think they maybe from the victorian era.

TCC
29-04-2011, 00:53
Thanks everybody. It just gives me an idea value wise. Its an interesting little archive.

Cheers, Nigel

Nigel
a LION cap tally has just gone through ebay in the last few days for £49-ish.

thor996
17-05-2011, 14:57
Hello, i am a new member and I have a question regarding the value of hat tallies. I found one from the USS Lexington CV 2. What are the general values of something like this.

siggy63
20-05-2011, 16:52
Hello Mate
good to see you on the listings.

Ah tallies - I will be upfront mate, value, all comes down to who collects what, when and why sort of thing.....

Have seen USN tallies go for as little as a few quid right up to a nice handy little wad of notes..... most collectors usually go for the RN ones. I like a lot of other collectors have been priced out the market mate by others paying over the top prices.....

The most I've coughed up for a USN tally is about £25 notes, if you looking to see and have an account on ebay then give it a go, if in good nick you might make a few bob, the cut ones or shortened ones usually stay a bit lower in price...

Unfortunately mate its a cut throat business.... and we all out for a bargain... it dont help that "she who must be obeyed" found my last smuggling device so until I can find a new way of sneaking tallies into the collection I am up the swanny without a paddle LOL

Danny

thor996
21-05-2011, 00:29
Thanks for the greeting Danny!

LOL, I don't have one of those female stop me getting my stuff problems-THANK GOD. I did get this one for a bargain--- less than one dollar if you can believe that and I am giving you the ABSOLUTE truth about that I appreciate the post and would like to note that the Lexington was a pretty famous USN ship [with all due respect to you guys]....
cheers!
Dave

Jan Steer
21-05-2011, 08:28
Please forgive my ignorance gentlemen but in my day American sailors wore 'pork pie' hats. Where did they have their cap ribbons?

best wishes
Jan

Teuchter
21-05-2011, 14:35
Good point Jan - I was wondering that too!!

stontamar
21-05-2011, 14:53
Please forgive my ignorance gentlemen but in my day American sailors wore 'pork pie' hats. Where did they have their cap ribbons?

best wishes
Jan

Hi Jan

I am not quite sure when, as my knowledge of the USN is very limited, but the design of the cap worn by USN ratings changed. Please see the attached photograph as an example.

stontamar

Sean Roberts
21-05-2011, 19:06
At hte time the USS Lexiington(Carrier) Commisioned,I believe the lower deck ratings below the rank of CPOwere wearing what were known as 'Slob' Hats,.The typical type of hat depicted in many a film.I believe the individuals ship was notated in a sewn on shoulder patch.???

derek s.langsdon
22-05-2011, 12:32
Regretably do'nt have cap ribbons for my old Dad's WWII service with H.M.S.Northern Wave or H.M.S.Asturias,when he probably wore just H.M.S.The two ribbons I found amongst mementoes in his cap box were from H.M.S.Leopard (no full stop after name) and the Italian R.N.E.F.Duca D'Aosta (with a small star at each end).....My own old NatSvc issue ('46) copy of "A Seamsn's Pocket-Boo(printed June '43-Price if purchased Is.3d) instructs on pages 98/99 Kit Layout, that "The cap ribbon must be worn so that the H.M.S. is directly over the nose and it must be tied in a reef bow over the left ear"...further instructions are specific on the lanyard/scarves/overcoats etc.--derek=L

derek s.langsdon
22-05-2011, 12:38
Add my last -should read Seaman's Pocket Book .and see kit list says two cap ribbons issued to all on joining (with one blue one white cap)-derek-L

siggy63
23-05-2011, 08:13
Thanks for the greeting Danny!

LOL, I don't have one of those female stop me getting my stuff problems-THANK GOD. I did get this one for a bargain--- less than one dollar if you can believe that and I am giving you the ABSOLUTE truth about that I appreciate the post and would like to note that the Lexington was a pretty famous USN ship [with all due respect to you guys]....
cheers!
Dave

Dave
Yep I can believe..... sometimes you get genuine seller who just clearing out loft/attic or shed and I have felt pangs of guilt as I hand over my few pennies for something I've hunted hight and low for.... still I always tell them "it gone to a good home" and will eventually be passed to my lad - then again I've seen the glint of greed in dealers eyes as they watch you flick thru their books of tallies whilst you try and work out how a tally you saw only last month for £10 is now being listed for £50.........

And yes I have heard that the Lexington was well known in certain parts of the world...... LOL

Danny

thor996
23-05-2011, 17:21
Danny,

Well, I had very few pangs of guilt as I watched the tick tock of the auction clock and crossed my fingers, that I can honestly say. I almost feel bad for em, but its kinda hard feeling bad for people who are selling their uncle's stuff just to make a few bux. I mean come on, when I want to make a few bucks, I grab a shovel and head out the door and find some extra work to do....But hey, whatever. I just keep telling myself the same thing 'its going to a good home'...

:cool: I kinda figured y'all knew the Lady Lex's history... LOL...

thanks for the info, you guys are just confirming my suspiciouns that I got a nice bargain. Actually the whole set of stuff she was selling cost me a bit more than the tally did [but it was worth it-- there was a scrapbook page too with all stuff/articles centered around the ships participation in the search for Amelia Earheart--the period from which all this came from--]...so I figure put the tally in with the Lexington's paper with the article for the search, the photos of the ship and a few more bric a brac...its history that just needed to stay together.

cheers

dave

Jan Steer
23-05-2011, 18:38
Siggy/Danny, I do hope that I have misundertood or misinterpreted your words above. It seems that offering just a few pennies to a genuine person clearing out their loft is a little unjust. Maybe by offering close to the going rate you may alleviate your feelings of guilt.

best wishes
Jan

kzcc4x
23-05-2011, 19:35
Hi to all

I shall be honest from the word "go" and let you know why I am here.

As a child I hoped of joining the Navy as had my Father and two brothers, and like any good sob story I had my joining test at 15 and interview on my 16th birthday, where I was told "no thanks, and dont ask why" and sent on my way. Disillusioned I never returned, more fool me :(

Anyway, around 1983 I wrote to many ships\bases an asked for cap tallies etc, these I found again while clearing my mothers loft. Now they are no use to me, and I'm far too old to have them as keep sakes, so would like to sell my soul on ebay or similar to someone that does want them. I know they wont pay off my mortgage, but also dont want to let some sneak grab a bargain and pay his mortgage off ;)

So really I'm looking for advice as to their worth, and at the same time if anyone fancies one or all then I'm open for business (sounds cold). As said all are from around 1983, some have a pamphlet of the ship, and I do have some photo's somewhere too sent to me from a few ships; one is a very good one of a close call in the Falklands in "Bomb Alley" I believe, but until I find them I can not name the ship for sure.

My list:
H.M.S. Hermes
H.M.S. Fearless
H.M.S. Arrow
H.M.S. Glamorgan
H.M.S. Brilliant
H.M.S. Invincible
H.M.S. Cambridge
H.M.S. Exeter
H.M.S. Antrim
H.M.S. Diomede
H.M.S. Intrepid
H.M.S. Glasgow
F.O.S.T.
H.M.S. Vernon (x3)

So as said, any help appreciated on these, I can post photo's somewhere if called for and hopefully I can find my photo album soon.

Thanks all, Daren

siggy63
24-05-2011, 08:06
Hello Mate
Thanks for being upfront about your posting and the story leading up to the collection - unfortunately as you found out, back in the 1980s the Services could be very very choosey about who they let in, my brother got turned down for Naval Chef cos they didn't need any and they kept telling him to go Writer which he didn't want ....... the selection didn't always work and I served onboard a few units that had right muppets there.

With regards to the tallies mate - 1980s tallies would normally sell for about £3-£5 per tally, you might get slightly more for the odd tally depending if you get two collectors after the same one, the ship ones usually more interest to collectors rather than the shorebase or Flag Officer ones I've noticed too.

Any Welcome aboard pamphlets for sea going units can go for about £2.50-ish but check on the back of each one and at the bottom (left or right) you will find a couple of numbers stating something like 6.81 or 7/79 this gives you the date the pamphlet was published - a lot of collectors like myself are interested in this as we may have a pamphlet for that particular unit but not for that publication year - I suppose it all helps when looking to sell.

If selling together i.e. tally/phamphlet and looking to use ebay then would suggest say a starting fee of £4.00 and of course wait for a FREE LISTING week-end and that way you dont pay a listing fee at the start just in case they dont sell......

Good Luck

Danny

siggy63
24-05-2011, 08:15
Jan
mate a few pennines can be anything from a few quid to about £20 per tally - so a figure of speech mate...... have also found that when it comes to collecting you gotta be firm matey, they is going to sell no matter what and a dealer will start lower than a collector and make it sound like they giving a good deal, then they sell on to a genuine collector and make a HUGE profit..... like lawyers, you can't do without dealers but they not always in it for the love of it.

So if it came across as heartless then perhaps you have to be in the end, but it doesn't stop the odd twinge and yes perhaps it does make you add a few more but at least most collectors will have more twinges than a dealer.

Dan

thor996
24-05-2011, 14:33
I agree with Danny a 'few pennies' is a figure of speech. And furthermore, if its an ebay auction item and they got it started at .99 cents who am I to clue em in? That's what they want to start the bid at then so be it. All bets are off on whether or not the item will go for good money or will be a BARGAIN score. Dealers well, dealers will go the extra mile to bleed EVERY cent out of a collector. I tested one recently by offering to sell them some letters that I had purchased at a reasonable price--you know 'played dumb'. Well as expected, the dealer came back and offered to take em off my hands at HALF of what I paid for em. Think they saw one too many episodes of 'Pawn Stars'. Sorry to any dealers out there--in this day and age of digital post it yourself media, I don't [we actually] need you to make a buck.
:D

Jan Steer
24-05-2011, 18:38
Thankyou for putting me straight gentlemen. Clearly my belief in human nature is very misplaced. I will bear everything you have told me in mind when I offer my collection of 1st ww and post ww2 tallies for sale.

best wishes
Jan

Nobby_N
24-05-2011, 21:18
This whole business is totally new to me. I never thought there could have been a market for such things. See how naive I am! I have all my old cap-tallies: Collingwood, Bulwark, St.Angelo, Excellent, Terror, Blackpool, and lastly Victory for the week I was doing discharge routine. I also have Belfast because a mate of mine was on her in the Far East - I don't know how I came by it. Some runs ashore ended a little hazily. My brother who did World War II service only wore HMS tallies. I was told it was so that if the ship was sunk none of the hats floating in the sea could betray its identity. It made sense to me. That would not apply to shore-base cap-tallies. The thing about a HMS tally was that it was possible to have the M over your nose and the bow over your left eye - Oh yes, my bro always put a silver threepenny bit in the knot of the bow. You can't do that with Collingwood, and anyway by the mid fifties it was forbidden - centre the name over your nose and the bow over your left ear. As sprogs we all tried to get away with bow-waves in our hats and got picked up for it by crushers when ashore. By the time I had got my first badge the thing to do for jolly jacks with some time in was to pull the hat hard down and square never mind bow-waves they only showed your lack of time in - see attached photo. I realise that last bit is off topic - sorry. Anyway - I have all my cap-tallies. I wouldn't sell them for anything. The only person they mean anything to is me and possibly in future, one of my sons. My plan was always to mount them up with some pic of the ships and frame them, but as yet I haven't got around to doing that.

Nobby_N

siggy63
25-05-2011, 09:07
Thankyou for putting me straight gentlemen. Clearly my belief in human nature is very misplaced. I will bear everything you have told me in mind when I offer my collection of 1st ww and post ww2 tallies for sale.

best wishes
Jan

Oh Jan now you mad at me ....... its not a case of putting ya straight mate, its a case of I would rather my son sell my own collection of er a few tallies to another collector than go direct to a dealer ........ both may offer a reasonable price in their eyes for the single tally or the whole collection but I believe that the collector would be offering the price out of interest and affection for the article whereas the dealer would only be thinking I know who would like that and I can still make a profit

Still in the end I will leave that problem to my son, I will be well gone, fired from a chaff launcher during the Thursday War if I get my way, and I would imagine that like your own collection, unless the collector has just won the lottery I can see a single collector purchasing the whole lot in one go .. I know that I couldn't for example purchase your collection in one hit, so the dealers win .... I was lucky with 60% of my own collection as I knew someone who worked for a large maritime insurance company section and this company was given a tally by every naval unit over a very long period - they were going to take a dozen black bin bags of tallies and burn them but I have given them a good home and hopefully my son will do the same!

Danny

Jan Steer
25-05-2011, 12:16
Danny, thanks for your reply but no offence taken or implied. Your hobby is a bit of a mystery to me that's all.

best wishes
Jan

siggy63
26-05-2011, 17:10
Jan
Its not a hobby! OMG its a way of life LOL

I like the smell of napalm in the morning but I like walking up to dealers at military fares and pointing out that the tally they have on their table priced at £180 is a 1980s reproduction and then walking off.......... been told to "f off" a few times but it is so satisfying LOL

Glad we good

and if any dealers reading this and sulking - I loathe sum but not all LOL

Danny

thor996
26-05-2011, 19:43
Danny,
:eek: how could you do that? I just hope they have some potential victims er customers standing there when you unload on em.
Dave

lodesman
11-12-2011, 16:26
Every month in a certain Ex Services Club magazine there's an add 'Cap tallies/ribbons wanted by collector, top prices paid' Same person sell's them on e-Bay with a starting price of £100 each!! It annoys me to think people will virtually give away their tallies to what they see as a genuine collector, & he does that!!:(

John O'Callaghan
12-12-2011, 22:21
lodesman old son!While I sympathise with your lament.Unfortunately it's called 'Free Enterprise'
Cheers John O'C.

Geoff Gilbey
16-12-2011, 16:10
lodesman old son!While I sympathise with your lament.Unfortunately it's called 'Free Enterprise'
Cheers John O'C.

Their must be a good business opportunity for the manufacturer of tally's to reprint old tally's. It would destroy the market for the cowboys and give everybody a chance to own the ribbons of their choice. I saw Hms Anzio tally advertised on Ebay and it sold for £45.00 when I was own the Anzio they were probably half a crown.

jaunty
23-02-2012, 23:20
I am new here, and having problems with the Introduction. Hope someone can help.

Ex RN 1944-47 served on HM Rescue tugs very interesting. Received some years after the War Naval Gen Service medal for SE Asia plus a War medal..
As a hobby I mount Veterans Medals have done over a thousand in the past years. Doing one for framing right now to a a PO with DSM on Q Ships WW1'

Anyway what i want to know is this; I have a Cap Tally to HMS Neptune and seeing that the Ship went down with only one survivor Is this a collectors item? It is pretty dirty but still has a bow on it.by the way it has a dot..

sybaris
07-03-2012, 23:52
Hello
Does anyone know where I could get a tally from the Irish Navy?

thanks
Rex

prattmision
12-04-2012, 18:03
...any interest in A-H cap tallies???

prattmision
15-04-2012, 06:55
http://www.robert-brytan.com/cap/images/cap_tally_SMS_Tegetthof.jpg


http://www.robert-brytan.com/cap/images/cap_tally_SMTb.jpg


http://www.robert-brytan.com/cap/images/cap_tally_SMTb_2.jpg

prattmision
19-04-2012, 17:39
Angola Navy - 1970's

http://www.robert-brytan.com/cap/images/cap_tally_angola.jpg

prattmision
19-04-2012, 17:41
Argentine Navy

http://www.robert-brytan.com/cap/images/BaseNavalUshuaia.jpg


http://www.robert-brytan.com/cap/images/ArmadaArgentina.jpg

prattmision
19-04-2012, 17:42
Bulgarian Navy

http://www.robert-brytan.com/cap/images/VoennoMorskiiFlot.jpg

prattmision
19-04-2012, 17:44
Canadian Navy - 1960's

http://www.robert-brytan.com/cap/images/HMCS.jpg

http://www.robert-brytan.com/cap/images/Carbou.jpg

prattmision
19-04-2012, 17:46
Finnish Navy

http://www.robert-brytan.com/cap/images/Laivasto.jpg

http://www.robert-brytan.com/cap/images/SaaristomerenLaivasto.jpg

prattmision
19-04-2012, 17:48
French Navy - 1940's (printed) produced in Canada

http://www.robert-brytan.com/cap/images/MarineNationale.jpg

prattmision
19-04-2012, 17:49
German Navy

East Germany - 1980's

http://www.robert-brytan.com/cap/images/Volksmarine.jpg

West Germany - 1990's

http://www.robert-brytan.com/cap/images/Bundesmarine.jpg

prattmision
19-04-2012, 17:54
Royal Norwegian Navy

1) 1930's-1940's Submarine

http://www.robert-brytan.com/cap/images/cap_tally0001.jpg

2) Minelayer 1918–1940

http://www.robert-brytan.com/cap/images/cap_tally0002.jpg

3) Coastal defence ship 1901–1940

http://www.robert-brytan.com/cap/images/cap_tally0003.jpg

4) Submarine chaser 1945

http://www.robert-brytan.com/cap/images/cap_tally0011.jpg

5) K/S NORGE 1990's

http://www.robert-brytan.com/cap/images/cap_tally0009.jpg

prattmision
19-04-2012, 17:56
Polish Navy

http://www.robert-brytan.com/cap/images/MarynarkaWojenna.jpg

http://www.robert-brytan.com/cap/images/Baltyk.jpg

http://www.robert-brytan.com/cap/images/Dozorowce.jpg

prattmision
19-04-2012, 17:57
Soviet Navy

http://www.robert-brytan.com/cap/images/KrasnoznamenBaltFlot.jpg

http://www.robert-brytan.com/cap/images/BaltiiskiiFlot.jpg

prattmision
19-04-2012, 18:00
Royal Navy

1) pre-1939

http://www.robert-brytan.com/cap/images/Victory.jpg

2) 1940's

http://www.robert-brytan.com/cap/images/HMS.jpg

3) 1950's

http://www.robert-brytan.com/cap/images/Belfast.jpg

4) 1980's

http://www.robert-brytan.com/cap/images/Dian.jpg

prattmision
19-04-2012, 18:01
Royal Yugoslavian Navy pre-1940

http://www.robert-brytan.com/cap/images/KraljevskaMornarica.jpg

eskimosailor
19-04-2012, 18:54
I cannot remember the exact wording on the cap tallies, but I do recall that those of the Dutch Navy at Portland led to the sailors being referred to as Klonkijonks. I just hope it was not rude.
Steve

prattmision
21-04-2012, 05:47
The inscription on Dutch tallies reads: Koninklijke Marine (Royal Navy)

prattmision
25-04-2012, 18:01
Any cap tally collectors out there????:) If so, do drop me a line, either through PM or direct:

rbsorb@lycos.com

ap1
03-09-2012, 16:54
Interesting thread this.

Just found a few cap tallies in the attic.

Ganges, Diana, Tiger and Sultan; wire thread. All genuine and worn by yours truly.

Eagle is cotton thread, but genuine, as it also was my own.

Ulster, cotton thread. Given to me by an oppo. It is genuine too.

Dave in Perth
25-11-2012, 10:13
Hi.. My young brother passed away recently and left a small collection of military items. Amongst these are 100 or so cap tally bans, mainly german, some RN and RAN. I don't know the difference between a copy and the real thing... Can anyone advise me on how to differentiate?

Dave

siggy63
25-11-2012, 15:04
Hello Dave
Can you get some pictures up on the forum? I suspect that the RN and RAN ones will be real - but its the German ones that are harder to confirm as genuine.... mainly due to the fact that unlike the UK and Australian Governments who used just a few companies to produce the tallies our friends in Europe used whoever was the best provider of the elusive deal....

Danny

Dave in Perth
25-11-2012, 21:58
Hi Danny,

Yes, I wil get some close up pics on today showing both front and back of typical examples. Appreciate your response and advice.

Regards

Dave

Lee Day
29-11-2012, 22:44
I'm looking for a HM SUBMARINE or HMS TALLY HO cap ribbon.
Any suppliers out there?
L. Day
LSAW2
HMCS CRUSADER (amongst others)

alanandbren
30-11-2012, 09:05
I'm looking for a HM SUBMARINE or HMS TALLY HO cap ribbon.
Any suppliers out there?
L. Day
LSAW2
HMCS CRUSADER (amongst others)

You will not find a Tally Ho cap ribbon, as she came under HM Submarines,

Alan

BALTICSUBS
03-01-2013, 01:09
Have seen much discussion on the Submarine Cap Tally. Did they or did they not have their particular Submarine on the Tally.

From 1914-1930's seems they did, many just had HM Submarines, or Depot ship, but many examples do exist of the submarine on the Tally, here are some examples from my personal photo collection.

C20 1914
H1 1915
E27 1918/19
R10 1920's.
K26 1920's x 2
L4 1920's
L14 1920's
L52 1920's
L53 1920's
L54 1920's
Oxley 1930's

dennis a feary
03-01-2013, 07:44
Balticsubs - great new Thread - should have been done before.
I was going to do it - but - lazy ??
Here are a couple more Submarine Tallys.
1st is L69 - 2nd H49

Sadsac

BALTICSUBS
03-01-2013, 10:11
I certainly do not agree my post has been moved as it was, i was trying to keep the Royal Navy Submariners and their Cap Tallies a unique thread, now it has lost it's meaning.

jbryce1437
03-01-2013, 18:48
I merged your thread with the existing thread on the subject of cap ribbons and tallies. It seems to be a duplication of topic having a seperate thread on the subject and I am sure that other contributors to the thread will be every bit as interested in your posts about submarine cap tallies.

Jim

BALTICSUBS
05-01-2013, 10:44
Pointless to you maybe, but none the less many submariners may feel offended as needless to say they are and were a different breed deserving of their own seperate thread which seriously lacks on this forum, it becomes hard to find now. Enough said, there was a reason i knowingly started a seperate thread for submariners, but now point is lost.

And no point posting the other cap photos i have.

LSRP2
13-02-2013, 15:06
These are a few of the cap tallies I acquired from my father and some I collected during my time in the R.C.N. The first four belonged to my father, he acquired the German tally in 1936. The first Kootenay tally was from the war time commissioned ship and the second was from the DDE, which was my first sea posting in 1968. The HMCS Cornwallis tally's bow is the colour scheme of the new entry division from 1965. Each division had a uniquely coloured bow identifying to which barracks the new entry belonged.

Regards Dave

eskimosailor
13-02-2013, 19:43
. Each division had a uniquely coloured bow identifying to which barracks the new entry belonged.

Regards Dave

How the heck do you tie that?:eek::p:p
Steve

LSRP2
14-02-2013, 12:10
Steve they were done with needle and tread. The red section was trimmed and stitched in the back of the white bow. The tallies worn after leaving new entry training were tied not sewn. I remember the "encouraging" words from the Divisional P.O. as he taught us how things were to be done.

I remember sitting on my bunk in "Joining Block" sewing the bows and learning how to embroider my name and official number on all of my kit. Still have a few items after nearly 48 years. We all looked forward to the day we got rid on the black cap and wore our "real sailor's white cap". All it took was surviving the 16 weeks of basic training.

Dave

eskimosailor
14-02-2013, 13:02
Steve they were done with needle and tread. The red section was trimmed and stitched in the back of the white bow. The tallies worn after leaving new entry training were tied not sewn. I remember the "encouraging" words from the Divisional P.O. as he taught us how things were to be done.

I remember sitting on my bunk in "Joining Block" sewing the bows and learning how to embroider my name and official number on all of my kit. Still have a few items after nearly 48 years. We all looked forward to the day we got rid on the black cap and wore our "real sailor's white cap". All it took was surviving the 16 weeks of basic training.

Dave

That all sounds positively sadistic, however I believe some similar trials were visited on the junior entrants to the RN in various establishments. I joined HMS Raleigh in 1962 at19, printed my name tallies and kit with a wooden "type" and only ever tied cap tallies. What did I miss?:eek::eek:
Steve

LSRP2
14-02-2013, 13:12
You didn't miss much Steve. It probably sounded much more sadistic than it actually was..I think!!! Looking back I do envy the Divisional P.O.s - taking civilians and turning them in to sailors ready for the fleet. A real task considering most were between 17 and 23 years of age. Most had not been away from home and were certainly not used to the "routine" required by the standards of the day.

Dave

Scurs
14-02-2013, 14:09
When I joined GANGES as "Baby Seaman" in 1957, we had to stamp every item of kit with the wooden name type mentioned by Steve - then were required to sew said names into each item with red cotton.
I always envied, for example, M. Day, and felt very sorry for G.R. Shufflebotham (who is probably still trying to complete it all to this day). :D

After training stamping name with type only sufficed.

ceylon220
15-02-2013, 09:02
Still got my name type and "housewife" Scurrs but always regret now not saving my cap tallies.

siggy63
19-02-2013, 17:39
Have just returned to the site after a few months/weeks away doing my bit for queen and country and as an avid collector of cap tallies I was amazed to see this posted ....... now I know why I dont always drop in to say hello as often or try and research material for items I have collected - it would seem that being just a surface matelot I am to be consider another breed of matelot..... thanks for pointing that out - have refrained from using normal lower deck language so as not to upset anyone (and yes have been told off by moderators before) but it came close...........


Pointless to you maybe, but none the less many submariners may feel offended as needless to say they are and were a different breed deserving of their own seperate thread which seriously lacks on this forum, it becomes hard to find now. Enough said, there was a reason i knowingly started a seperate thread for submariners, but now point is lost.

And no point posting the other cap photos i have.

CYLLA
25-07-2013, 12:31
Here is a couple of "cap tallies".....

The photo was taken while i was at Gibraltar , during my last years in the Royal Navy 1973-1975.

Wombat
18-10-2013, 12:20
Sorry if I have put this in the wrong section, but is there anyone on the forum that collects Cap Tallies?
I have recently started on the small venture of collecting RNH Cap Tallies. At the moment I have four:
RNH Gibraltar,
RNH Haslar,
MDHU Derriford,
RNH Plymouth.
It would help if I knew how many of these Tallies were issued, and can anyone please tell me what MDHU stands for?
Thank you.
Wombat,
James.

astraltrader
18-10-2013, 12:24
Hi James a simple typing of Tallies in our search facility brought up this thread! ;)

ap1
18-10-2013, 14:25
...can anyone please tell me what MDHU stands for?
Thank you.
Wombat,
James.

"Established in 1995 following the closure of Royal Naval Hospital Stonehouse, Ministry of Defence Hospital Unit (MDHU) Derriford has had a longstanding relationship with Plymouth Hospitals NHS Trust which continues to grow and reap benefits for both. A tri-service staff of 180 military doctors, nurses, medics and allied health professionals are fully integrated within the hospital workplace, working and training alongside their NHS counterparts, treating the local community, whilst proudly wearing their service uniforms and contributing to its high standard of patient care."

Google MDHU Derriford and get the full story.

CYLLA
19-10-2013, 11:39
Hi Andy , your post 156 , is very interesting to read ..

When on the 11 nov 72 ,i received a draft to Royal Naval Hospital Stonehouse, i reported to a office in h.m.s drake ,and the P.O told me to report to the routine office in Stonehouse .Having just past my driving test ,and the wife being pregnant , i had use of the car [Morris traveler].

The time i spent there ,i only had a H.M.S Drake cap tallies on my caps .

I worked in the laboratory office [easy number]

I left on the 19 july 1973.

cylla

Wombat
19-10-2013, 12:06
"Established in 1995 following the closure of Royal Naval Hospital Stonehouse, Ministry of Defence Hospital Unit (MDHU) Derriford has had a longstanding relationship with Plymouth Hospitals NHS Trust which continues to grow and reap benefits for both. A tri-service staff of 180 military doctors, nurses, medics and allied health professionals are fully integrated within the hospital workplace, working and training alongside their NHS counterparts, treating the local community, whilst proudly wearing their service uniforms and contributing to its high standard of patient care."

Google MDHU Derriford and get the full story.

Thanks Andy, Very interesting reply, I will look that up as you suggest.

Wombat,
James. (Tasmania)

ap1
25-10-2013, 19:35
Still got my name type and "housewife" Scurrs but always regret now not saving my cap tallies.

Not surprised either! These things can fetch enough money to get you a good run ashore these days!

138889

This collection made £400 in an auction in Plymouth.
Some of them are really worth it; but some are questionable (i.e. of a much lower importance, than an active warship) to me.:)

Still, I don't collect them, but do retain a few, from my own career in the R.N.

I remember in the very early 1960's the pubs in Pompey and Guzz had thousands of these things,
covering the whole walls of many rooms. I wonder what happened to them all?

At that time, they were all ships' cap tallies which you knew represented the mighty ships of the R.N., and Colonies
and the therefore of the Empire, which was just fading away at the time.

It used to make the hair stand up on the back of my neck, when I looked up at the names of the
Battleships, Battlecruisers and Aircraft Carriers, for example, from the late World War on those cap tallies,
as I tried to slurp my pint of bitter, without being noticed as an under-age drinker, trying to look much older;
yet it stuck in my mind forever, the solid and sure knowledge that we would
benefit from the sacrifices of those who lost their lives, on those ships,
winning us the peace, that we were enjoying right now.

harry.gibbon
04-01-2014, 23:51
"Established in 1995 following the closure of Royal Naval Hospital Stonehouse, Ministry of Defence Hospital Unit (MDHU) Derriford has had a longstanding relationship with Plymouth Hospitals NHS Trust which continues to grow and reap benefits for both. A tri-service staff of 180 military doctors, nurses, medics and allied health professionals are fully integrated within the hospital workplace, working and training alongside their NHS counterparts, treating the local community, whilst proudly wearing their service uniforms and contributing to its high standard of patient care."

Google MDHU Derriford and get the full story.

...or indeed here in post #9 (http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showpost.php?p=85400&postcount=9) on the 'AB K Nesbett awarded the Military Cross' thread;):)


Little h

harry.gibbon
05-01-2014, 00:39
The Cap Tallies allocated to members in depicted in the attachments below seem to indicate that the parent unit or tender are of no relevance or can not be represented.

1st attachment; members of the 43Cdo Fleet Protection Group RM - on the occasion of the disbandonment parade of P Sqdn, see the following excerpt:-
Since 2010 the men and women of P Squadron have helped to safeguard the vessels of the Royal Navy and Royal Fleet Auxiliary in some of the most dangerous waters in the world, working alongside their colleagues from 43 Commando Fleet Protection Group (hence the cap tally worn by junior ratings (http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/News-and-Events/Latest-News/2013/November/29/131129-Clyde-P)).

2nd attachment; a recent aircrew qualifier for the Wessex Commando Helicopter Force of the FAA, see the following excerpt:-
The eight new naval aviators received their coveted ‘Wings’ badges (http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/News-and-Events/Latest-News/2013/December/20/131220-Junglies-Spread-Their-Wings)from Rear Admiral Russ Harding OBE, Assistant Chief of the Naval Staff (Aviation and Carriers).


Source; Both photographs were depicted in the RN website (via fb)

Little h

johnny07
05-01-2014, 11:09
Thank's for those photos Harry but I'm a bit confused.
Who are the JRs in photo 1?
I looked up this group and apparently they used to be Comacchio group who were oil rig anti terrorist commandos But Royal Marines.
I remember them very well as they would come out to the rig usually with an SAS unit for training and excercises. They would live with us for a week at a time and then disapear. We never Knew how they came or went.
As I said I'm confused as these lads seem to be sailors.

harry.gibbon
05-01-2014, 14:13
Johnny,

The answer to your question regarding the sailors in the photograph can be found in one of the links I included in the text associated with the attachment.

That, together with the details in a) this link to the UK Elite Forces site (http://www.eliteukforces.info/royal-marines/fleet-protection-group/) and b) this link to and article in the Navy News website (https://navynews.co.uk/archive/news/item/4251) should fill in all your queries.

By the way did you mean SBS rather than SAS?


Little h

johnny07
05-01-2014, 16:18
Harry, I did mean SAS. Comacchio and SAS did these exercises, SBS having handed the role over to Comacchio.
The Comacchio commandos were a particularly fearsome bunch of blokes and if I may say so looked somewhat different to the lads in the photo.

Jan Steer
18-01-2014, 19:06
Thought I should share these pictures with you. They are of some of my oldest cap ribbons although I must stress that I am not a collector. These were passed to me in around '59/60 by an elderly neighbour who used to talk to me about his life in submarines as a stoker around the time of the first world war.
Rob Roy was a destroyer of the "Admiralty R Class". She was launched on 29th August 1916.
Forth was a submarine depot ship and was launched originally as a Mersey class cruiser in 1886.
R.N. Emanuele Filiberto was an Italian battleship launched in 1897. I believe she was scrapped sometime in the '20s

rogersjr
31-01-2014, 01:44
The navy of the colony of Victoria in Australia issued cap tallies for the periods 1859-1870 and 1885-1900 bearing the words Naval Brigade. To help identify men in photos I am asking if anyone is aware whether Naval Brigade cap tallies were issued in Britain in the 1800s.

Victorian Naval Forces Cap Tallies (http://www.cerberus.com.au/cap_tallies.html)

Jan Steer
02-02-2014, 11:08
I know that Georgian sailors often painted the name of their ship on ribbons which they tied around their headgear but when did cap ribbons become a standard uniform item in the Royal Navy?

siggy63
28-03-2014, 19:14
Jan

Sailors were wearing cap ribbons by the 1840s but it was not until 1857, when the first "Uniform Regulations for Petty Officers, Seaman and Boys" were published, that "hat ribbons bearing the ship's name" were officially recognised. Although the regulations did not specify how the ribbons were to be marked, it was customary for sailors to paint on the names of their ships in large capitals.

When gilt wire lettering was officially introduced in February 1858, it had already been adopted by Commander P.R. Sharpe RN of HMS Waterwitch, who had bought such ribbons from Thomas Stevens of Coventry and was issuing them to his ship's company at one shilling each (Public Records Office, Ref ADM.1/6045). In the same year ribbons with letters woven in silk were submitted for issue. The Controller of Victualling reported against their issue as an article of seaman's clothing and gilt woven ribbons were adopted for issue instead. These were initially only to stationary ships and Iron Clads, about 1½% of crew at first to be provided for (Index 18041 Admiralty Correspondence).

At first the regulations did not state how the ribbons were to be tied although the illustrations in the 1879 Regulations show the ribbons on hats and caps tied at the back with long ends hanging down.

Between 1893 and 1911 they were "tied in a bow over the left ear - the ends being three and four inches long respectively - the shorter end being in front". From 1911 they were tied with the "ends of the bows of equal lengths not more than two inches long".

During the two World Wars various security measures were in force concerning cap ribbons and the need to keep the whereabouts of HM Ships secret. In December 1914 the Admiral of Patrols issued an order prohibiting the wearing of cap ribbons ashore and in June 1915 men proceeding on leave from battleships, battle cruisers, cruisers and light cruisers refitting were ordered to wear cap ribbons of their depots and not of their ship (Index 24387 and 24403/2 Admiralty Correspondence). During World War II cap ribbons bearing only the letters "HMS" or HM Destroyers/Submarines" were in use.

Dating cap tallies can be all down to clues and research, pre-WWII tallies offer one such clue for the beginner. After the ships name there used to be a 'full stop', this practice continued until 1949/50 but it was used briefly again around 1952/53 but has not been used again since this time

Finally, don't forget that the 1960s saw the 25th Anniversaries of many WWII encounters, unfortunately for the collector of tallies the 60s used a very similar weave to the pre-WWII tallies (except the full stop) hence the abundance of reproduction tallies in circulation even if they are now around the 50 year old mark

Danny

Theletterwriter
17-10-2014, 20:14
I was sure I have read a thread on the Forum explaining the difference between tally bands from the First World War through to and after the Second World War but after a number of searches, I cannot find what I was looking for. To save me tearing out what little hair I have left on my head, could some kind soul tell me whether First World War tally bands had a dot at the end of the ship's name and whether the lettering of the ship's name was made from gold braid or not.

I am interested in the battle cruiser Indefatigable and whether the ship's tally bands had a dot. The photograph I have of my great grandfather is inconclusive as the last two letters of the ship's name are hidden. Additionally, a number of other photographs I have seen of other Indefatigable crew of that era in the First World War are either inconclusive or may be verging on no dot.

Any help would be gratefully received.

Douglas

jbryce1437
17-10-2014, 20:42
Hello Douglas, I have moved your post to an existing thread on the subject. See post #6 onwards.

Jim

Theletterwriter
17-10-2014, 20:48
Thanks for your help Jim.

Cheers

Douglas

rjg
14-12-2014, 12:54
Can any one help me to identify where this tally came from - H.M.S. DARTMOUTH (no dot at end of name so must date post 1950 ish). I know that there was a Reserve Fleet at Dartmouth in Devon between 1945-1946 but if the tally came from this establishment I think it would have a dot at the end of the name.
So could the tally originate from HMS DARTMOUTH which was the name given to the officers naval college at Dartmouth (BRNC) which received the name when the Royal yacht BRITANNIA was launched in 1953. This would tie-in with the tally not having a dot at the end.
Did the RN college having rating with the HMS DARTMOUTH tally after 1953 and if yes when until?.
Would be greatful for any help.
RJG

jbryce1437
14-12-2014, 14:47
Hello rjg and welcome aboard. With regard the cap tally, it will still be issued to ships company, at BRNC such as cooks, stewards and other ratings wearing square rig.

Jim

rjg
16-12-2014, 13:40
Hi Jim, thanks for the reply. Another question you or anyone out there might be able to answer.
I have a number of coloured tallies - usually light blue or white ribbon with the ships name (sometimes without the HMS prefix) and with flags at each end. All the ships seem to date late Victorian/ early Edwardian. Any idea what they are.
I have always thought they might have been produced for the caps of childrens 'Sailor uniforms' that were quite popular and common back them or as souviner type items for visitors to the ships.
Again would be greatful for any info
RJG

nathanR
02-01-2015, 19:34
Hi

does anyone have a Royal naval division cap tally that they could post pictures of , both sides would be appreciated, trying to learn the art of spotting a good one , thanks

Alexander
04-06-2015, 06:47
Hi !
I'm just begun to collect RN cap ribbons. I have some all wired, can you help about period of issue ?
Sorry for my English

rjg
30-06-2015, 13:40
Hi Alexander,
First tally of HMS VICTORY has a tiny dot at end of name this suggests circa WW 1 period whilst all the others with no dot are fairly modern i.e. mid/late 1950s-1970s ish. HM DESTROYER with a fairly large squarish dot is the type found around just after the end of WW2 until about the dropping of the dot altogether about early/mid 1950s.
Hope this helps, any other queries let me know I will help if I can as I have been collecting tallies since mid 1960s and now have many 1,000s.
Regards, Rab

Alexander
28-07-2015, 18:39
Hi, Rab !

Thanks a lot !
Regards,

Alexander

nathanR
03-09-2015, 15:42
Hi All i am after the following tallies (My grandads old ships)

Vivid (Post WW1)
Hildebrand (WW1)
Highflyer (WW1)
Cairo 1920s
Columbine 1920s
Barham 1920s
Carysfort 1920s
Lucifer WW2
Viscount WW2

Thanks all

Please PM me

Cleveland
06-11-2015, 13:41
Hello, my first post so here goes! I am not ex-Navy but I do have a son who served in RN for 10 years or so and it has been about 10 years since he left the service. I am putting together a collection of patches, flashes, replica medals and photos for him as a present, some of which he left at my house and other I have acquired over the last couple of years. The idea is to put it in a frame.

Which brings me to tally ribbons / bands

A few questions -

Should I include HMS Raleigh and HMS Collingwood tallies given they were training rather than operational?

He served on two ships for which I have original tallies, he also served with 29 Commando at RM Poole and Op Telic and as I understand it the tally would be "ROYAL MARINES UNIT" can someone confirm this?

Another deployment was the MoD in Whitehall, until recently I thought the tally would just be the generic "ROYAL NAVY" until I saw a young sailor on ITV London News wearing "MOD LONDON" (and the MOD without full-stops) has anyone else come across this?

Another odd deployment was at Portsdown West Dstl in Porchester, would this be the generic "ROYAL NAVY" tally, I think he stayed at HMS Nelson at this time so would a "HMS NELSON" or possibly "HMNB PORTSMOUTH" be appropriate?

Finally a stint in the Falkland Islands at the Joint Communications Unit Falkland Islands. Is there a tally for non-ship based RN staff in the Falklands? Somone suggested there might be a BFSAI (British Forces South Atlantic Islands) tally but despite a search I haven't seen one. I doubt there is a "JCU FALKLAND ISLANDS" (which is a pity) as there wouldn't be enough RN junior ratings so would it be another case for the generic "ROYAL NAVY" tally ?

Any thoughts on the above would be welcome, I don't want to ask him if I can help it!

Thanks

mstary1
06-11-2015, 16:33
I haven't kept any of my cap tallies apart from this one.

This batch arrived and issued before it was pointed out there was a problem. :D

Derek Dicker
09-11-2015, 08:28
Spelling Diamantina

DebraLee
21-12-2015, 22:04
Hello Everyone,

I am new to the forum and thank you so much for accepting me. I am a collector of Victorian Lace and Ribbons. Why am I here? Well in the bottom of a stash of pretty ribbons I purchased were 2 French Uncut Cap Tally's. One is embroidered Prosperite and the other Triomphe. Each still have original paper labels marked Article Depose Aux Armes Du Force Qualite 0 13 Lignes 1 Douzaine.
Basically translated is refers to this item as being a registered item made for the armed forces ~ Grade 0 ~ 13 Lines ~ 1 Dozen.
Prosperite is done in brown and Triomphe in blue. The ribbon is quite fine and possibly a silk/cotton blend. At first I thought they were Grosgrain ribbon but they are a much finer grade. Does anyone have any insight into these tallies? I've been looking for over a month and haven't found anything. I will insert a pic when I figure that out...be back soon. Thanks ahead of time, Debra

jbryce1437
21-12-2015, 22:13
Hello Debra and welcome to the Forums. Hopefully, someone can answer your query.

Jim
ps I attached your image as a thumbnail

DebraLee
21-12-2015, 23:21
Thanks Jim, I was very confused as how to post a pic! :)

Pelican
14-03-2016, 17:25
CAP TALLIES
SPIRIT OF THE ANZACS
.
In this video - https://www.youtube.com/embed/NfFFzFiiVYM?rel=0 - two cap tallies appear, one about halfway thru and the other towards the end.
Can anyone identify the full wording of them please?
It has been suggested that the first tally may contain 'rescue' and the second tally is probably HMAS Derwent a naval base in Tasmania. This changed its name in 1942 to avoid confusion with our HMS Derwent.
.
Look forward to your replies.

Mitch Hinde
14-03-2016, 19:30
Hi Pelican

The first one is RA NAVAL RESCUE and second seems almost definitely to be DERWENT.

Mitch Hinde

Pelican
14-03-2016, 21:10
Hi Pelican

The first one is RA NAVAL RESCUE and second seems almost definitely to be DERWENT.

Mitch Hinde

Many thanks Mitch.

Domino
14-03-2016, 22:39
Hello, my first post so here goes! I am not ex-Navy but I do have a son who served in RN for 10 years or so and it has been about 10 years since he left the service. I am putting together a collection of patches, flashes, replica medals and photos for him as a present, some of which he left at my house and other I have acquired over the last couple of years. The idea is to put it in a frame.

Which brings me to tally ribbons / bands

A few questions -

Should I include HMS Raleigh and HMS Collingwood tallies given they were training rather than operational?

He served on two ships for which I have original tallies, he also served with 29 Commando at RM Poole and Op Telic and as I understand it the tally would be "ROYAL MARINES UNIT" can someone confirm this?

Another deployment was the MoD in Whitehall, until recently I thought the tally would just be the generic "ROYAL NAVY" until I saw a young sailor on ITV London News wearing "MOD LONDON" (and the MOD without full-stops) has anyone else come across this?

Another odd deployment was at Portsdown West Dstl in Porchester, would this be the generic "ROYAL NAVY" tally, I think he stayed at HMS Nelson at this time so would a "HMS NELSON" or possibly "HMNB PORTSMOUTH" be appropriate?

Finally a stint in the Falkland Islands at the Joint Communications Unit Falkland Islands. Is there a tally for non-ship based RN staff in the Falklands? Somone suggested there might be a BFSAI (British Forces South Atlantic Islands) tally but despite a search I haven't seen one. I doubt there is a "JCU FALKLAND ISLANDS" (which is a pity) as there wouldn't be enough RN junior ratings so would it be another case for the generic "ROYAL NAVY" tally ?

Any thoughts on the above would be welcome, I don't want to ask him if I can help it!

Thanks

Hi Cleveland

why not include training establishments as well as operational ships?
HMS Victory is a fast moving cap tally, not of an operational ship but of a barracks that handles many people

I served in MOD London back in the late 60's, I was on the pay books of HMS President that handles/handled all RN staff in London. I was employed in the Defence Communications Centre which was actually an RAF posting with a smattering of RN and Army personnel. The head of DCC was an RN officer who carried on in the same job after he retired. No one gave me any form of cap tally for the 20 month posting, have no idea where I would have got it from. If I had had to wear a uniform I would have had a cap tally with HMS Victory as that was my previous posting. However, I remained in civvies all the time, although a Lieutenant SD(C) in charge of the watch at Whitehall Wireless one evening refused to pay us in civvies. We returned the next night after he had received a horoscope reading and another officer paid us whilst he glared through a window.

Spent short time training at Poole but kept my ship cap tally, some postings such as you describe never issue cap tallies and we had to wear the tally for the establishment that paid us. In my time believe those permanently attached to Pool kept their HMS Mercury cap tally but were entitled to wear a beret having completed the Commando course.

The longest cap tally I was ever issued was COMMANDERFAREASTFLEET when I was in the communications centre there. It goes all the way round and barely fits a cap.

realise not a full answer but goes some way I hope, so good luck with your collection. Try the thread about ships crests which will enhance the cap tallies.

kind regards
Dom

Geoff H.
14-03-2016, 23:13
Depends on the era but Portsdown was also Fort Southwick and I did not
wear the cap tally of HMS Nelson though I was accommodated there but
I wore"Commander in Chief" as we were the Commcen for CinC Portsmouth
and the Nato post of CinC Channel.
I would include all captallies whether training or operational

Geoff

Domino
15-03-2016, 13:27
Depends on the era but Portsdown was also Fort Southwick and I did not
wear the cap tally of HMS Nelson though I was accommodated there but
I wore"Commander in Chief" as we were the Commcen for CinC Portsmouth
and the Nato post of CinC Channel.
I would include all captallies whether training or operational

Geoff

IIRC I may have been expected to wear a Victory tally when at Fort Southwick as that is where we had single men's (and women's) accommodation blocks. But I was only there for a couple of months before being drafted to The Big Smoke. Was it known as Nelson back in the late 60's? I would probably have noticed if it was as Nelson was an Airfix model I built a few years before joining up.

Scurs
15-03-2016, 13:56
Domino.............RNB became "NELSON", 1st August 1974............so "yes" was still "VICTORY" in late 60's. I was only there once..........October-December 1968 (EVT course & release).

jbryce1437
15-03-2016, 14:15
I had a Victory cap tally in 1971/2 when I was Portsmouth Fleet Maintenance Group, I had a PO's cap when I joined Victory RNB in March 1974 for discharge.

Jim

Domino
15-03-2016, 14:47
Domino.............RNB became "NELSON", 1st August 1974............so "yes" was still "VICTORY" in late 60's. I was only there once..........October-December 1968 (EVT course & release).

thanks for that, remember something about Victory and Nelson where the boundary was a bit blurred. Remember we were in the "new" accommodation blocks but there were huge cracks in the walls and complaints that the windows couldn't be opened due to movement.

Did try to check my facts before posting but the Wiki for this was even more blurred than my memory.

One thing that still lingers is that when taking "a rest" during shifts that we had to use the metal beds left over from D-Day operations

EVT course - what a choice, woodworking or driving lessons - had been driving for 6 years, had my own mini! ! Woodwork Instructor didn't think much of my commitment when I was worrying about how much work I had to do in the new build house I had bought the year before.

rgds

jbryce1437
15-03-2016, 16:12
.

EVT course - what a choice, woodworking or driving lessons - had been driving for 6 years, had my own mini! ! Woodwork Instructor didn't think much of my commitment when I was worrying about how much work I had to do in the new build house I had bought the year before.

rgds
I asked my Divisional Officer for a NBCDI course to prepare me for joining the Fire Brigade and I got it granted ;)

Jim

BelliniTosi
15-03-2016, 16:51
thanks for that, remember something about

EVT course - what a choice, woodworking or driving lessons - had been driving for 6 years, had my own mini! ! Woodwork Instructor didn't think much of my commitment when I was worrying about how much work I had to do in the new build house I had bought the year before.

rgds

EVT course! wanted to do HGV driving, couldn't be spared.

Just looked at my S459
Joined Victory from 19th July '74 to 31st July '74
Joined Nelson from 1st Aug '74 to 23rd Aug '74 (Discharged LS expired)
I was there when RNB Portsmouth changed its name and don't remember anything about it. :confused::confused:
I wonder why! must have been RDP :p:p
John

jbryce1437
15-03-2016, 19:04
EVT course! wanted to do HGV driving, couldn't be spared.

Just looked at my S459
Joined Victory from 19th July '74 to 31st July '74
Joined Nelson from 1st Aug '74 to 23rd Aug '74 (Discharged LS expired)
I was there when RNB Portsmouth changed its name and don't remember anything about it. :confused::confused:
I wonder why! must have been RDP :p:p
John
Probably on your months end of service leave ;-)

Jim

Pelican
16-03-2016, 10:50
CAP TALLIES
SPIRIT OF THE ANZACS
.
In this video - https://www.youtube.com/embed/NfFFzFiiVYM?rel=0 - two cap tallies appear, one about halfway thru and the other towards the end.
Can anyone identify the full wording of them please?
It has been suggested that the first tally may contain 'rescue' and the second tally is probably HMAS Derwent a naval base in Tasmania. This changed its name in 1942 to avoid confusion with our HMS Derwent.
.
Look forward to your replies.

From 'Down Under' -

Re the HMAS Derwent tally band as shown. I have seen that photo somewhere else, but where escapes my memory !
The original Derwent was a River Class Torpedo Boat Destroyer (TPD) launched 19 Dec 1914 250ft 700 tons 26kts but name changed in Oct 1915 to Huon.
The second Derwent was the Commissioned Shore Establishment located in Hobart 1 Aug 1940 to 1 Mar 1942.
Originally named HMAS Cerberus IV and changed to Huon 1 Mar 1942
The third Derwent was the River Class Frigate which commissioned 30 April 1964 (Ben Franklin was on it) of 2700tonnes and carried pennant numbers F22 thence DE22 thence 49 at various commissions. Was sunk off the coast after being used for ship survivability trials off W.A. Over the years there were six sister ships.

Re the other tally band I take it to read R. A. Naval Reserve and I assume it to be a WWII photo.
Any reservists in my brief 9 years 58 – 67 I saw doing annual continuous training wore a R.A.N.R. tally band.
An example which springs to mind, a lot of chaps joined the RAN as reservists before WWII broke out, and when hostilities were declared they reported for duty and in they went for the ‘duration of hostilities’ normally plus six months before being demobbed. Whereas some others were already in the permanent R.A.N. when hostilities were declared and would have had HMAS tally bands when permitted. I have seen photos of matelot’s for security reasons without any tally bands at all.
Laurie Passmore b 20/7/1927 joined the RAN Reserves at 17 years of age plus 4 months on 28/11/1944 initially for two years, as an ORD SMN II with a local Fremantle reservists number of F5515.
He sought approval and changed his rating to ORD SMN II W/T 12/2/1945 and headed off to Flinders Naval Depot (Sig School) and was rated ORD TEL 1/8/1945 at Cerberus. Now whether he wore a Cerberus tally band or a R.A. Naval Reserve tally band at FND I do not know, however he was drafted to the HMAS Gladstone and rated TEL 27/1/1946. Lawrie whilst on the Gladstone transferred to the permanent R.A.N. for 2 years from 1/7/1947 with a new official number R35125 and with the winding down of the war effort was Discharged Free / Shore here at Leeuwin 6.9.1948.

Pelican
16-03-2016, 11:23
From the UK this time from the person who first raised the questions:

"I have just received a letter from the Senior Naval Historical Officer of Sea
Power Centre, Australia and he concurs that the cap tally 'R.A. Naval' is
followed by 'Reserve' not 'rescue' as I thought and as they were mostly shore
based they would not have worn H.M.A.S. He does though put this title as 1914.
He says another variant is 'H.M.A. Naval Reserve'.

He is also sending me a complimentary book he wrote on 'Badges and Uniforms of
the Australian Navy'.

Chuffed, I am."

Scurs
16-03-2016, 16:11
Pelican, it is better to be born lucky, than rich, so it is said! :D

Mind you, anyone born rich IS lucky, IMO. :D:D

EVT Courses...........originally wanted driving course as only held motor-cycle license.........turned down! So did Interior Decorating Course instead - not to make a living at it, but thought it would be useful for future DIY projects - and so over the years it has proven to have been.
After EVT, got detailed off to work one morning in Chiefs Mess.....in their office a CPO sat laboriously "two finger typing". "Want me to do that Chief"?, I asked, "I'm qualified GOW". Henceforth, until release I had a nice quiet number in Chiefs Mess doing their typing for them. :):)

John O'Callaghan
18-03-2016, 06:57
Hi Pelican. I believe that the cap tally is RAN Reserves and the Derwent tally is for the Type 12 Destroyer Escort in RAN service from the early 1960s to the 1990s?
Cheers John O'C.

rogersjr
31-03-2016, 20:32
Does anyone know when the dot on cap tallies at the end of the ship's name was introduced. I realise that WWI cap tallies had a dot after the ship's name but wish to know how much earlier the dot was used after the name.

Pelican
01-04-2016, 15:18
Does anyone know when the dot on cap tallies at the end of the ship's name was introduced. I realise that WWI cap tallies had a dot after the ship's name but wish to know how much earlier the dot was used after the name.

John an oppo referred me to this site where 'Nick' has asked a similar question. I will leave you to look into the answers.
http://gmic.co.uk/search/?type=all&q=royal+navy+cap+tallies

rogersjr
02-04-2016, 07:56
Thank-you Pelican. It seems from photos at http://gmic.co.uk/topic/50851-hms-tallies-how-to-tell-the-difference/?page=2#comment-466866 that the dot was introduced after 1895 but before 1903.

Pelican
02-04-2016, 16:45
Thank-you Pelican. It seems from photos at http://gmic.co.uk/topic/50851-hms-tallies-how-to-tell-the-difference/?page=2#comment-466866 that the dot was introduced after 1895 but before 1903.

My guru suggested trying the R.M.G. so I have found these but you might find a better way/wording to use the search box and obtain more logical results. The keyword is ribbon(s) not tally/tallies. Good luck.
http://www.rmg.co.uk/search/site/CAP%20RIBBONS

shena
09-08-2017, 13:53
I have a sailors hat from HMS Rapid. Hand sewn white. Wanting any information on year to connect to my family history. Even crew lists would help.

jbryce1437
09-08-2017, 16:41
I have a sailors hat from HMS Rapid. Hand sewn white. Wanting any information on year to connect to my family history. Even crew lists would help.
Hello shena and a very warm welcome to the Forums. If you can post a photo of the cap tally it may help to give an answer to your query. The last HMS Rapid was in service until 1981, but there were eight previous ships of that name. It is unlikely that crew list exists for any of those ships, unless the person was onboard at a time of a Census return, the latest one that is available is for 1911, although there wasn't a Rapid in commission at that time.

Jim