Warship Recognition

[Blaydon]

For all those who visit our site and are confused by the pictures of similar vessels I will be presenting here a series of posts covering some of the basic pointers for warship recognition.

Those of you with a good familiarity with ships will probably find nothing new here for the newcomer to this field hopefully this will help a little.

Any comments or suggestions can be sent to me by Personal Message (PM).

[Blaydon]

Reference Books

If you are going to be spending a lot of time looking at warships then it a good idea to get some sort of reference material.

Obviously there are thousands of books out there from the very general to the highly specific and covering various periods of time.
The price of these reference works also varies widely.

As obvious as it may sound you need to decide where your area of interest lies, what kind of vessel drew you to this point.
Or what here has really caught your attention and piqued your interest.

This then is the best place to start, find your area of interest work out how much you can afford and buy yourself a reference book.

Sounds easy, but there are good books and bad books. What that means is that with some books you can rely on the information inside others are not so well researched.

Any book is better than no book but sometimes it is worth saving up a little for a good one.

Names to be reckoned with are for example Janes or Conways or The Naval Institute all of whom produce very well researched reference books.

What should your book contain?:eek:

To be of use your reference book should have at least one photograph or line drawing of each class of ship, a list of ships in the class and details about the vessel (dimensions, powerplant, armament, crew etc) and ideally a set of notes detailing ship histories and modifications. (SEE PHOTO1) This is an excerpt from a Conways and it gives the kind of information detailed above.

If these types of reference work are out of reach financialy some of the books from bargain bookshops can give some information to get you started at least until you can save up.

A good reference book can be a wonderful learning tool it allows you to start learning about the ships it contains.:)

Read the details and look at the picture, this sounds simple but lots of people dont do it.:(

You read that the ship is 300 feet long, look at the picture get a feel for the scale of the vessel now you know what a vessel that long looks like you now have a sense of scale. So next time you see a ship you are thinking is it bigger than the one I was looking at? If so how much bigger.

If it mentions guns look on the picture try to identify where they are and how they look.

Observation is the key, it does not matter how good your reference books are if you do not look at them and learn all you can from them.

The reference book allows you to see a ship or a photo of one and then identify it and so learn about it.

The series that I use the most are Conway's set of four covering 1860-1905, 1906-1921, 1922-1946 and 1947-1995 which retail at about £32 each which I bought one every few months until I had them all.

Ebay can also be useful but if possible see the book at a library or bookshop or ask on this forum before buying online as you may find that it is not what you want after all.
Watch for the next installment.........

[Blaydon]

So you have some reference material and are raring to go, you could look at every picture and drawing in the books but that would take a while and is not very efficient.

What we need to do is to draw information from the photo which will help to narrow down our search thus making it easier and faster.

First we need to look at the picture and ask ourselves what is it that I see.

What type of vessel is it?
For this we need to have a grasp of the different types of vessel out there, is it an Aircraft Carrier, a Battleship/Battlecruiser, a Cruiser (Heavy or Light), a Destroyer or something else you are not sure of?
This narrows down your search parameters.

Is it showing any flags or ensigns?
Familiarise yourself with some of the more common national flags and ensigns for the area you are interested in if you have a flag you can identify this is a major help in narrowing your list of suspects.(Picture1) Shows a White Ensign indicating she is British Royal Navy.

Does it look strange or unbalanced?
By this I do not mean does it look like a drawing by Esher or Dali, but is it obviously missing guns or turrets or other changes.
Many ships undergo modifications in their life and this may change the appearance of the vessel keep this in mind as usually reference book illustrations are of the vessel as built and not as modified.(Picture 2a & 2b) These are the same ship and neither configuration is how she was designed originally.

If it is a colour picture is the colour scheme distinctive?
Some navies used disruptive paint schemes during war years (Dazzle paint) and others did not, get to know which are which. Some navies have quite distinctive colours of vessels, the russian cold war ships are a distinct grey/green sort of colour whilst the Japanese for example prefer a darker grey than the USN or RN.(Picture3) Dazzle paint, (picture4) RN grey, (Picture5) Japanese grey, (Picture6) Russian Grey.

Is there anything else in the picture that can help?
Are there other vessels which may indicate the nationality of the vessel or is the photo showing a distinctive piece of land. Is it possible to identify a region for example the presence of Junks would indicate the far east. All of these may help ultimately in coming to an identification for a vessel.

Next post: Specifics, those picky little details...

[ivorthediver]

Well done Kev

The points you are making is long over due for the untrained amongst us who are trying to find out specifics but are not sure how to go about it....
Good luck with this thread ..................

[alanbenn]

Kev, I'm looking forward to the future installments, as someone who knows a type of ship recognising one from t'other is something else and I've not managed to grasp that as yet. So I'm hoping your tips will be useful for me.

Hope more people are interested and the thread expands.

Regards
Alan

[Blaydon]

I'm planning on releasing it in installments as I get them written and get illustrations. Which will be as work and other commitments allow.

[CGRET]

Kev,

Great job! Looking forward to the next installments.

Regards
Charles

[Blaydon]

FUNNELS
Yes this instalment we are talking smoke stacks, but not modern ones as they will feature in another post. The number and style of funnel can be an invaluable clue to ship identification. The type, number, positioning and fittings can help in the positive identification of a ship.
Observation then is the name of the game, if necessary use a note pad to jot down features that you see that may help in identifying the vessel, remember vessels can be discounted on the basis of not having these features as well as included for having them.
One must note however the propensity for navies to modify their ships so the numbers, style and arrangement of funnels can change and a good reference work will mention this in the text and may illustrate it.

Simple shapes
Funnels can be simple, that is they are of constant cross section from top to bottom and these can come in standard vertical form or with a pronounced rake.
http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/blaydonstormchild/simplestraight.jpg http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/blaydonstormchild/simpleraked.jpg



Complex shapes
Funnels may also be complex in shape with changes of cross section and strange appendages to the top. It is useful to get a feel for the nations which have a tendency to be more extravagant in this respect.

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/blaydonstormchild/complex1.jpg http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/blaydonstormchild/complex2.jpg http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/blaydonstormchild/complex3.jpg http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/blaydonstormchild/complex5.jpg

Numbers
The numbers of funnels subject to the caveat above is a useful identification tool with vessels sporting up to six.

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/blaydonstormchild/single.jpg http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/blaydonstormchild/double.jpg http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/blaydonstormchild/triple.jpg http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/blaydonstormchild/quad.jpg http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/blaydonstormchild/five.jpg http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/blaydonstormchild/six.jpg

Thickness
The thickness of the funnel is another pointer some are thin spindly things and others are huge fat constructions note should be taken of the funnel thickness in reference to some other feature of the vessel.

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/blaydonstormchild/thin.jpg http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/blaydonstormchild/thick.jpg


Heights
Hights of funnel vary enormously and the height should also be gauged against some other feature like the bridge or join in a mast.


Spacing
Spacing of funnels is a two part thing, first their spacing from each other, is it regular or irregular and then second their spacing with other features such as masts and superstructure. For example a vessel may have three funnels equally spaced from each other but the three are set far closer to the fore mast than the main mast.
http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/blaydonstormchild/equalspacing.jpg http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/blaydonstormchild/unequalspacing.jpg

Mixed bags
Mixed bags, some vessels have mismatched funnels, some fat some thin or some tall some short or even a combination of these. These mixed bags tend to be very good for identification purposes.

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/blaydonstormchild/mixedthicknesses2.jpg http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/blaydonstormchild/mixedthicknesses.jpg

Pipes and Fittings
The addition of pipes or platforms or any hoods to the top of the funnel can also help if your reference material is sufficiently good to show them. A combination of pipes and other features can be as good as a fingerprint.
http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/blaydonstormchild/pipes.jpg

Next installment coming soon....

[SCRG1970]

Kev

This is certainly a very informative thread and a tribute to your hard work.

I was glad you kept away from the funnel identification using different colour bands placed at at different levels. I have tried to follow Parkes treatise on this for British Battleships and found it a minefield.

Look forward to the thread developing.

Regards

Gerry

[Blaydon]

The problem with bands is that they are so prone to change and to photo quality and references are so scarce and not always correct that as you say they are a minefield.

Thanks for your comments.

[SCRG1970]

Kev

Got to agree with you there. I thought it would be a sure way of dating various photos but it threw up more questions and anomalies than answers.

Regards

gerry

[ivorthediver]

[quote=Blaydon;50978]The problem with bands is that they are so prone to change and to photo quality and references are so scarce and not always correct that as you say they are a minefield.

Thanks for your comments.[/quote

You have been hard at work Kev, this is turning out to be a Must for idiots like me.........thank you for the time and effort you have put into this....


Regards Ivor

[Dreadnought]

I am interested to learn more about funnel recognition bands, and am surprised that there seems to limited information widely available about this subject.

As I understand it, prior to 1909, funnel bands were used spasmodically and to a limited extent, and then used to distinguish ships of the same class only. During that year a system was conceived for use throughout the Navy that allowed more specific recognition, and was introduced in 1910. However, it appears that it was not used at the outset of WW1, although I cannot find anything definitive .

I have only myself, got one book that shows these markings - 'Warships of World War 1 (No.1 Battleships)'. Ian Allen. Published 1959, and this only shows funnel banding for Battlleships. The same books for Destroyers and Cruisers do not contain funnel band information?

If it ceased to be used at the start of the War did ships with bands have them overpainted? I have photographs of ships after 1914 with funnel bands, and some without bands that should have done/once did?

I have several photographs of HMS Hindustan that show three different funnel band configurations …? Perhaps two versions pre 1910, and then the standardized ones?

In trying to investigate this further, I have started compiling some reference sheets beginning with Battleship Funnel Bands (1910 -1914).

Before I proceed much further, I would welcome any information, comments, suggestions, or identification of any errors I have made so far with my sheets (attached).

[Blaydon]

Janes did tend to publish info on funnel bands and they can be seen in there but not always for all classes

my reprint of Janes fighting ships of WW1 has schemes for the following classes
Commonwealth
Swiftsure
Queen
Russell
London
Formidable
Canopus
Magnificent
Some heavy cruisers and some torpedo gunboats



My 1919 JFS does not have references to funnel bands so perhaps they were discontinued for security reasons.


PS sorry for the long gap in my posts but college is getting in the way.

[SCRG1970]

[QUOTE=Dreadnought;78656]I am interested to learn more about funnel recognition bands, and am surprised that there seems to limited information widely available about this subject.

Clive

Just picked up this thread again and thought you might be interested in this info on the MAJESTIC class. I compiled it from "Parkes" treatise on Battleships.
As I said before I thought it would help identify name and date but came to the conclusion you needed to know the NAME to be certain which seemed a pointless exercise.

Regards

gerry

[steve roberts]

Correct me if I'm wrong,but did not Destroyer and Frigate squadron leaders carry thick black funnle stripes in the 60's. Steve:confused:

[harry.gibbon]

They did in the squadrons I was in!!

Little h

[jbryce1437]

Can't view any of the images in post 7. Have they been deleted?

JIm

[Blaydon]

No just temporarily unavailable due to bad planning on my part.

That will teach me to get too engrossed in college and forget my admin.

[jbryce1437]

Many thanks, normal service resumed, white stick discarded;)

Jim

[Dreadnought]

[QUOTE=Dreadnought;78656]I am interested to learn more about funnel recognition bands, and am surprised that there seems to limited information widely available about this subject.

Clive

Just picked up this thread again and thought you might be interested in this info on the MAJESTIC class. I compiled it from "Parkes" treatise on Battleships.
As I said before I thought it would help identify name and date but came to the conclusion you needed to know the NAME to be certain which seemed a pointless exercise.

Regards

gerry
Hi Gerry,

Thanks for that ... need to look at your spreadsheet more closely than my cursory glance 'cos I can't make sense of it ...!! In fact the whole saga of funnel markings appears to be quite bizarre. Been away from this thought train for a while, so need to retune ...

[hmsvelox]

RN destroyers and frigates used to wear prominent bands on funnels indicating whether a ship operated as a leader or a divisional leader in a flotilla (a thick band for a leader and a thin band for a divisional leader). This tradition started around 1920 and was carried forward well into the 1980s when Type 42 class destroyers and Type 22 class frigates could still be seen wearing these bands.

However, from most recent photos it seems that RN ships don't show the bands any more. Does anyone know the exact date when the practice was discontinued and why?

And related to this question, I'd also like to know when RN flotillas were renamed squadrons. I know it was around 1950 but couldn't find the exact date. And I wonder if the composition of a destroyer squadron after 1950 was in any way different from a destroyer flotilla in the war. I'll appreciate it very much if anybody could help answer these questions. Thank you.

[steve roberts]

Hi hmsvelox.I think you will find that funnel markings were temporary deleted for the Falklands War,when all ships were painted uniformly grey overall.This included even the boot topping.Funnel badges have crept back into fashion,as has the black boot topping.I doubt there are enough ships actually at sea today to even call themselves a squadron or flotilla!
Regards Steve.

[chris westwood]

Hi hmsvelox.I think you will find that funnel markings were temporary deleted for the Falklands War,when all ships were painted uniformly grey overall.This included even the boot topping.Funnel badges have crept back into fashion,as has the black boot topping.I doubt there are enough ships actually at sea today to even call themselves a squadron or flotilla!
Regards Steve.

didn't the sheffield class wear a vertical funnel band to distinguish themselves from their Argentine half sisters?

ships don't operate as squadrons/flotillas any more. Not just as you say because of their actual numbers, but simply because tactics and so on have changed.

[steve roberts]

Hi Chris.Only at the outset of the conflict.Once it was clear that the Argentian Navy were not going to sortie again,they were also painted overall dull grey.
Regards Steve.

[chris westwood]

Hi Chris.Only at the outset of the conflict.Once it was clear that the Argentian Navy were not going to sortie again,they were also painted overall dull grey.
Regards Steve.
thanks for that.

[Phil Reeder]

Does anyone know the purpose of the light coloured (white?)markings on the funnels of HMS Lion in 1915?


Thanks ,Phil

[Dreadnought]

Hi Phil,

Have moved your thread here where this thread deals with questions such as yours. Have also changed your picture to an attachment, which is our preferred method of uploading images.

Cheers

[Andy H]

by means of flying pennants/flags, such as Commodore's or Admirals, or by painting Flotiila leader bands or division leader bands around funnels, as to the importance of a particular vessel in the command structure?

Surely given a choice of similar targets any lurking enemy submarine will chose one of the above, rather than a vessel flying no such flag or with no funnel markings. Surely these methods of indentification were unwarranted and by-passed by technology during WW2

Regards

Andy H

[n.giffin]

Hi everybody,
Can anyone tell me if there was an overall plan for the use of funnel bands on pre-dreadnoughts and cruisers in the early 1900's. I have counted at least 40 ships with black or white bands on their funnels. Presumably they were to help identify the ships but were not used on all ships. Some were black and some white and again any reason for this?
Grateful for any light on this topic.
Happy New Year,

Giff.

[Dreadnought]

Hi Giff,

Some information here:

http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3955&highlight=recognition

Have a look at post 8 and beyond ...

Cheers

Moderator Note: Threads subsequentl merged

[n.giffin]

Thanks Clive,
Seems like a more complicated subject than I thought, but at least other people have been interested in working it out. Seems like some old copies of Janes might be a help.
Regards,
Giffi.

[SCRG1970]

Giffi

Good luck with your dip into the murky waters of funnel bands.

I have used Parkes "British Battleships" as a guideline to pre-WW1 markings.

It seemed a good idea at the time but it does throw uip a lot of questions.

I have just worked through the Canopus Class using the 1905 and 1909 markings.

It appears the bands were painted out on the outbreak of war.

I found that three-quarters of the Canopus Class photos I have did not agree with the funnel markings. Identification by small hull/superstructure differences is very difficult if these changes are not documented and barely visible.

Question 1 Are the photos wrongly captioned ?

Question 2 Is the list of funnel bands wrong?

The only concrete answer I have is the possesion of postally used and dated photo postcards marked from the ship with a photo displaying the wrong funnel bands.

Welcome to our world.

Regards

Gerry

[Dreadnought]

Hi Gerry,

My take on the funnels bands for Canopus Class as attached. Information based on that detailed by Jane's.

I have never seen a picture of Canopus with this configuration however.

[culverin]

Hello # 30 and what can be a real problem
when trying to identify RN ships of the post Victorian navy and up to the outbreak of WW1.
In fact only 2 colours were used, white and red.
The full band system was introduced from 1908 for all capital ships and cruisers and was worked out on a class system which moved through to the following class with combinations of nil, one or two bands per ship.
It is straight forward and fairly logical once you know the sequence, but what can really upset individual ship id are those ships never allocated bands.
A classic is the 5 Bristol class where Bristol had no bands and where Newcastle should have had them, but they were never painted as she went straight to the far east where bands were unused.
All bands on these types were deleted on the outbreak of WW1.
Destroyer bands are entirely different and first came into use widely from the Acorn class of 1910 where all 20 ships in the class had the full array of options on their 3 funnels and all were in red, ie, Acorn 000, Alarm 100, Brisk 010, Cameleon 001 and so on
But again and crucially it is always those that carried 0 that can make general id extremely complex.
Vanguard was the only RN battleship that had red bands. No idea why.
After the start of WW1 ships of destroyer size or less continued with bands but in a totally different format, but then we also saw the pendant number introduced.

[Dreadnought]

.......Vanguard was the only RN battleship that had red bands. No idea why.


I wondered that myself; as shown in post #13 attachment

[culverin]

Yes Clive, i have never understood Vanguard over many years and shall get my bands records out and study it again.
As i said, the bands worked in a logical sequence but on the older protected cruisers for example where some ships had paid off by 1908-09 the system became more haphazard as it progressed from one class to the next.
However for any one with photos of RN ships of this era, unless it categorically has bands there is unfortunately no guarantees, unless it is a single ship like Dreadnought or Neptune for example.

[culverin]

A good guide to the band system worked was the Acorn, later H class destroyers of WW1 of which there were 20-twenty.
These were 3 funnel ships and apply to 1 colour only, red in this case, and the combinations as used, ships banded in alphabetical order.
The 3 funnels in order fore, centre, aft, 0-nil,1-one, 2-two.
0-0-0
1-0-0
0-1-0
0-0-1
1-1-0
1-0-1
0-1-1
1-1-1
2-0-0
0-2-0
0-0-2
2-1-0
2-0-1
2-1-1
1-2-0
0-2-1
1-2-1
1-0-2
0-1-2
1-1-2
This is the 20 as used, including those frustrating 0-0-0
In addition there are 7 further combinations that could but were not used.
0-2-2
1-2-2
2-0-2
2-1-2
2-2-0
2-2-1
2-2-2