Conte di Cavour Class Battleships

[Krieg1981]

I've searched high and low on this website and on "the internets", and I've not been able to find good post reconstruction Cavour class battleship photos........can anyone help?:)

Thank you!

[designeraccd]

Here are two, the very clear one was courtesy-so to speak-of the RN's air arm! Enjoy....DFO :D

[Tiornu]

I tell you, these were the loveliest battleships of World War II.

[MMM]

Not sure if the loveliest but for sure one of leading class:)
To encourage others, the first step: Both of them. Quick question: which one is in the foreground?;);)

[BCRenown]

Loveliest battleships? Well, beauty is squarely in the eye of the beholder but I've always preferred the Duilios over the Cavours, taller forward superstructure, more prominent foremast +. I'm not saying these were the "loveliest battleships of World War II" either.

Monty


image from www.maritimequest.com

[Tiornu]

And frankly, I'm not sure that loveliness is why you build a battleship. But I'm sticking by my guns...so to speak.

[Krieg1981]

The Duilio's are beautiful, but there is something about the Cavour's........ The Italians have always built aesthetically pleasing warships! To be fair, though, everyone has built a beautiful battleship class(R class, Dunkerque class, Fuso class.....blablabla!)

[John Brown]

Just one.....


Regards....John

[designeraccd]

No doubt the 4 rebuilt BB's were very handsome, especially the Andrea Doria pair, but given the cost and resources put into what still amounted to 4-at best-mediocore BBs....IMO the effort would have been far better spent on one or two more VV or at least completing Impero. Still, then I would have been "deprived" of a nice scratch built Andrea Doria model! LOL! DFO :)

[Tiornu]

Eliminating the rebuilds would not do much to advance other projects because the limiting factor in new construction was slip space. In fact, the rebuilds got so much attention specifically because they did not involve any bottlenecks.

[designeraccd]

Given the VAST amount of work that went into these "rebuilds" surely they weren't in the water thru all of the HULL reconstruction..drydocks or? My impression, from a couple of Italian books on these 4 were that they were not considered to really have been worth the $$$$$$$$$$$?? DFO :eek::)

[designeraccd]

Nice 2D side color rendering of one of her COLORFUL camo schemes! DFO :)

[Tiornu]

My impression, from a couple of Italian books on these 4 were that they were not considered to really have been worth the $$$$$$$$$$$?
Think of it from the navy's standpoint. You can either accept the lavish allocation and rebuild the ships, or not receive the allocation and not rebuild the ships. A no-brainer. In the end, either way, you have the four ships, either modernized or not. Definitely a no-brainer.

[Krieg1981]

I don't think the Italian rebuilds were sub-standard or not worth it, I think they never had a chance to truly prove themselves against the French or British in battle.

[Tiornu]

The Italians understood their rebuilds to be inferior to British 15in ships in a gun duel. But they were much better suited to a campaign than their initial 12in, 21-knot incarnations.

[astraltrader]

They were always hampered by the lack of effective radar.

[designeraccd]

Not to mention AIR COVER...like from a real CV, that il duce in his brilliance knew wasn't required! Lack of fuel certainly hampered their operations, too, for the whole Fleet. DFO :D

[Tiornu]

How is it that the land of Marconi failed to deploy adequate naval radar? It was simply that no one particularly cared. The technical foundation was there, but it went comatose for lack of interest.

[BCRenown]

They were always hampered by the lack of effective radar.

also by their navy's high command and, by the Royal Navy of course.:)

Monty

[Vince O'Hara]

How is it that the land of Marconi failed to deploy adequate naval radar? It was simply that no one particularly cared. The technical foundation was there, but it went comatose for lack of interest.

Priorities and limited resources. Some effort was diverted into a system similar to the US TBS (talk between ships) and some effort was diverted into civilian prestiage projects, like television.

Vince

[astraltrader]

Good point about the limited resources Vince. The Italian naval expansion programme proved to be a few bridges too far. The money just wasn`t there to finish off these ships properly.

[designeraccd]

Fortunately fot the TIGHTLY stretched RN in the Med!! DFO :)

However, from my book on the WW2 Italian BBs: "If the reconstruction of the CAVOUR class was difficult to rationalize, although it improved the numerical standing of the Italian Navy, then the reconstruction of the DULIO class was even harder to justify. Without negating the great technical achievement, the navy's resources would have been better spent on completing the ROMA and IMPERO with greater haste. If so, they would have been availible by 1941, providing the navy with four new, modern, well armed battleships." I agree, given the weaknesses the 4 rebuilds still exhibited. DFO

[Tiornu]

What is the foundation for the idea of trading the Cavour/Duilio modernization for quicker completion of Roma and Impero? If there is no space for building Roma and Impero, how does leaving the older ships to rot accelerate new construction?

[designeraccd]

Littorio, LD Oct 28, 1934 Comm: May 6, '40

V Veneto LD Oct 28, '34 Comm: April 28, '40

IMPERO LD May 14, '38 NEVER completed

Roma LD Sept 18, '38. Comm June 14, '42

Dulio...rebuild April 37 to July 15, 1940

Doria...rebuild April '37 to Oct 20, 1940.

Hence it would seem with the last two rebuilds, at least, the last two VV could have had MORE effort put into their earlier completion and USE during the war....not that I am complaining given how "TIGHT" things were for RN! Think Italy's industrial base and labor could only do so much...not slipway space per se. DFO :)

[Krieg1981]

Thanks to everyone who threw down pics in this thread? I was curious if anyone was in possession of pics of Conte di Cavour after her sinking at Taranto? Or the Duilio class postwar? Thanks again all!:D

[MMM]

Sorry, you should precise the kind of pics:D:D:D:D:D

[MMM]

Dulio class post war:

[designeraccd]

And one more, Andrea Doria left over from mystery quiz as I liked the "pose"............DFO :)

[JIM BAUMANN]

If interested...

here is a nice little model in 1/700 scale

http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery/bb/it/cavour-700-nd/nd-index.html

[tupac]

Wow, I know that this is not the modelling page, but that is a stunning ship.

[Dido]

Has anyone any photos of the CONTE DI CAVOUR after 1941? I mean after leaving Taranto for Trieste.
I am curious to see in what state she was when she felt into German hands.

[INVINCIBLE]

Has anyone any photos of the CONTE DI CAVOUR after 1941? I mean after leaving Taranto for Trieste.
I am curious to see in what state she was when she felt into German hands.

CONTE DI CAVOUR from astern, after she was modernised in the 1930s but I suspect before 1941.

[designeraccd]

The soft cover monograph @ Italian WW 2 BBs has a pic of her raised and under repair: REGIA MARINA Italian Battleships of World War Two A Pictorial History

by E. Bagnasco and M. Grossman ISBN 0-933126-75-1

The photo is on pg 46, shows her dockside with workers filing on board. Actually not to much can be seen unfortunately. DFO :(

[Pedro Ruíz]

Hello everybody!:
Here I am going to put a small job about the history of the Italian battleships of “Conte di Cavour” Class.I want to dedicate this small job to the memory of my mother.I ask you sorry for my mistakes in this job.



BATTLESHIPS "CONTE DI CAVOUR" CLASS
The Italian battleships of "Conte di Cavour" Class were two battleships named "Conte di Cavour" and "Giulio Cesare",they were finished between 1914-15 and they were battleships of "Dreadnought" type,their main guns were monocaliber,their main weapon consisted in thirteen guns of 305 mm,max. speed of 21-22 knots.Both battleships were rebuilt in the middle of 1930s years.Originally their motive powers were coal and fuel-oil and they had steam turbines "Parsons" but afterwards when these battleships were rebuilt in 1930s years the old steam turbines were changed by light turbines and modern boilers of fuel-oil thus reduced to two the propellers as inicially the properllers were four.With the great reform made in these two battleships in 1930s years improved the weight then could augment the armoured in the sides (starboard and side port) although their armoured were lower than other similars battleships modernized of other navies.The battleships of Conte di Cavour Class had one system submarine protection named "Pugliese",this system was the same of the battleships "Littorio" Class and consisted in one cylinder empty horizontal of diameter 3´5 mts floating in fuel-oil and water inside of one external compartiment,then in the real fighting when one torpedo impacted (in theory) the explosion only affected to the cylinder although in reality this system failured owed to the small beam in the Conte di Cavour Class.When the battleships Cavour were rebuilt in 1930s years the bow and the aft were stretched for to augment the relation length/beam and thus can reach more speed,thus these battleships got 28 knots in the proofs.When the Regia Marina made proofs,these proofs were done in irreal conditions as the battleships or cruisers sailed without main weapons therefore the weight of the battleships were faster,but in war missions with the warship completely loaded the max. speed was inferior to 28 knots.

When the battleships "Conte di Cavour" Class were constructed in 1914-15 these battleships had five artillery towers,two in bow,two in aft and in the amidship one artillery tower but when these battleships were rebuilt the central artillery towers were removed and changed by secondary batteries and anti-aricraft batteries and all guns were changed by guns of 320 mm and augmented the elevation of the guns 320 mm to 27º with the maximun range of 28.600 meters.Thus the powerful fire of the battleships Conte di Cavour Class was similar to the French warships "Dunkerque" and "Strasbourg" even overcome to the British battleships deployed by the Royal Navy in the Mediterranean Sea.The secondary battery had twelve guns of 120 mm,this battery had the mission to avoid the destroyer´s attack,these guns of 120 mm were installed in twin towers,also the bridge was rebuilt following the line of the Italian light cruisers of type light cruiser "Condottieri",this bridge was smaller,from the bridge controlled the fire of the main artillery,these battleships had a two small funnels.The displacement of the battleships “Cavour” Class was 23.088 Tons and 25.086 Tons full load,afterwards of the rebuilt between 1933-37 the Cavours passed to have 28.800 Tons and 29.100 Tons full load.


The two battleships Conte di Cavour Class were projected in 1908 as the better version of the battleship "Dante Alighieri",the two "Cavours" laid down in 1914,in the Great War made missions of war in the South of Adriatic Sea,afterwards of the finish of the Great War the "Conte di Cavour" did a travel to USA in 1919.The Cavour participated in the military operations of the Italian Army when the Italian troops landed in the Corfú Island for to conquest this island.Between 1933-37 the two battleships Cavour Class were submitted to great modernization and the aftermath of this modernization process was a new modern battleships,the Cavours had a new maquinery and their hulls were enlarged.In June 1940 when the fascist Italy entered in the war alongside of the Nazi Germany against the democracies of the France and Great Britain the only Italian battleships prepared for to enter in action in the Mediterranean Sea were the two battleships Cavour Class.In July 1940 the battleships Cavour fought against the warships of Royal Navy near of Calabria (south of Italy),in this battle the British battleship "HMS Warspite" made target a great distance over the battleship "Giulio Cesare" then the Italian fleet retreated to Italian bases.Few time after these battleships Cavour Class alongside other battleships were used against British convoyes that they crossed the western Mediterranean from Gibrlatar towards Malta island,the Cavours operated against the British "H Force" based in Gibraltar in the waters of western Mediterranean although these actions were few effectivities because the Supermarina (High Command of the Regia Marina) didn´t want to have a encounter with the British heavies warships as aircraft carrier-ships or battleships.In the night of November 11,1940 the British aircraft carrier-ship "HMS Illustrious" having departed from Alejandria port sailed towards Tarento harbour situated in the south of Italy,there the Regia Marina had concentrated the bulk of hers fleet,all hers battleships were there in Tarento harbour,the British known this fact thanks of the air reconnaissance made by one Martin Maryland´s RAF from Malta few days before of the attack.When the HMS Illustrious was near of Tarento launched two waves of biplane torpedo aircraft Fairey Swordfish,in total were launched over Tarento 21 Swordfish in two waves,the first wave was composed by twelve Swordfish and the second wave was composed by nine,in this attack was sunk the battleship Conte di Cavour with a one torpedo,other two battleships "Littorio" and "Caio Duilio" were damaged with importants breakdowns and they were out service four and six months,also the cruiser "Trento" was damaged and the torpedo-boat "Libeccio" also was damaged.The Tarento attack inspired to the Japanese by to prepare the attack against the US Navy in Pearl Harbour in December 7,1941.The waters of Tarento harbour are few deep therefore the battleships damaged in this attack afterwards could be repaired in shipyards.In July 1941 the Conte di Cavour was refloated and she was brought to shipyard in Trieste for to repair,but the battlship Conte di Cavour never entered in service newly.In January 1941 the other Cavour,the "Giulio Cesare" was damaged lightly in a bombardement of the RAF over Napoles port.The "Giulio Cesare" was employed between Dec-1941 and January-1941 for to escort of convoys from Italy towards Lybia.The "Giulio Cesare" survived to the Second World War and she was given to the Soviet Navy in 1949,in the Soviet Navy was named "Novorossiysk" and was used as schoolship for training of the new cadets of the Soviet Navy,while the "Novorossiysk" was sailing in the Black Sea in waters near of Sebastopol she crashed with a mine and she sunk.



Bibliography

1.- JORDAN,John "Guía ilustrada de acorazados y cruceros de batalla",Vol 2,Madrid,1984

2.- CRAWFORD,Steve "Portaaviones y acorazados",Madrid,2002

3. "La Segunda Guerra Mundial" ABC,Tomo 1


Pedro Ruíz

[GaryH]

The gunnery of Gulio Cesare at Calabria certainly was not bad at all.
If Warspite had not landed the record long distance hit when she did, History could have been a little different.......

[MMM]

The gunnery of Gulio Cesare at Calabria certainly was not bad at all.
If Warspite had not landed the record long distance hit when she did, History could have been a little different.......


I'm afraid the record long distance hit belongs to Scharnhorst against HMS Glorious.

[MMM]

Giuli Cesare hit

[GaryH]

Hi MMM

I always thought that it was regarded as a tie?

[MMM]

Hello Gary,
According to http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-006.htm it was more or less tie but...

By the way USS Massachusetts hit Jean Bart in Casablanca from beyond 30 000 yards but French ship was sitting duck.

[apbaugh]

Regarding Image P1000828 of the Cavour (post #26), can anyone tell me what the crest on the bow? Is there a better image of it, or a name for it?