The Royal Navy and the China Station

[Linton]

I am looking for a book on the Royal navy and the China station in the 1930s.I am especially interested in the submarine operations on this station.

[dennis a feary]

LINTON, very much late I know - have only just seen this Thread.
Boats on Far East (HK) Station did `War Patrols' 1939 / 1940.
At least I know that RORQUAL did as father was aboard.
They patrolled SUNDA Straits etc.
Some even went into Tokyo Bay & photo'd the Jap Fleet thro scope - this annoyed the Japs & is probably the reason that they so hated submariners. The logs of these boats were probably stored in Singapore & lost to the Japs when they took over the Island. As the Americans took over the Jap mainland & would not allow the British to search the Jap archives these logs may still be there !! At least it is a thought - and not only MINE !!
I have tried to pursue this but no one who can `do something' is interested - must not upset the dear Americans / Japs !!!!!!!!

Sadsac

[Linton]

In one of Alistair Mars books he gives a notional plan for an attack on a Japanese fleet by the 4th Submarine Flotilla.Unfortunately it was never to be as most of the boats were called home to help out with the war in Europe.
The Japanese became increasingly belligerent in the 1930s as China disintegrated and this is another area largely forgotten.

[Fairlead]

A list of subs on the China Station in the 30's and their C.O.s can be found in this very interesting web site. You will have to read through the text to find the link.

http://articlesreserve.com/hmsfalcon/c1932/c1932.htm

Fairlead

[Linton]

Thank you for the link to the website.
Dennis have you tried the Naval Historical Branch in your search for documents relating to these submarine operations?

[dennis a feary]

LINTON,, thanks for thought. The NHB have nothing on this - nor the RNSM.
I was a member of the AWP at RNSM (for 20 years) until last year & their files show nothing for this period (apart from MY input) !!
Father was aboard GRAMPUS when out there (1936-1938) and I have several pics of him & the boat & crew.

Sadsac

[Linton]

Denis,would you be able to post the pictures?It would give us a flavour of the station in the 1930s.

[dennis a feary]

Tubby !! Will give it a try when I return from visit to RNSM. Have not been very successful in the past in posting photo's, but RIK & Terry have helped me to give it a whizz.
Sadsac

[astraltrader]

Dennis - please see my PM to you.

[dennis a feary]

LINTON, should I put pics of MEDWAY / China St / boats in this Thread or a different one ??? Depot ships ??
I have put one photo in D.S file already.
I will put photo's here & also in PHOTO Galleries.

Sadsac

[Don Boyer]

As I've said before, I am fairly new to the forum and am just getting around to some threads and posts of interest.

For Dennis a feary: Hey, I'd upset the hell out of the Americans if I wanted to do the kind of research you want to do. Long overdue to stir around in the National Archives and whatever other sources lie about that were denied to the RN/British historians at the end of the war.

At the end of the war, the British ran full tilt into egomaniac Douglas MacAurthur's sycophantic history group, ensconced in Tokyo with the keys to what records of Japan remained available (the Japanese stashed a hell of a lot of it, too, awaiting the day when they could use them again once the American grip was off). Hell, they wouldn't let AMERICAN researchers near their stuff unless the were MacAurthur's chosen few. Several American early post-war researchers, and I think Roger Pineau was one of them, were shoved aside out of jealousy and inter-service rivalry. The only reports on "how it was" during the war were going to be Mac's versions, regardless. Fortunately, his group in Japan did not control everything.

This is one of the reasons I've never been too big a fan of Gordon Prange as a historian despite his "At Dawn We Slept" and other tomes. He was one of that group, hoarded tons of "Pearl Harbor" and "Midway" data that could have been shared (thereby producing good history earlier on) so he could produce HIS definitive study and of course like most hoarders, died with it all in his hands, having really done squat with it. His editors made his rep, and theirs too, after his death. And all that time, other writers and researchers of greater merit were mostly left out in the cold, and books that could have been written authoritatively in the 60s weren't published until the 90s, if at all.

I am no expert on the records that we got from Japan, but I do remember reading that eventually either originals or copies of most were returned to Japan -- probably a bunch of pallets full of records with no archival records or anything dumped on a pier in Sasebo at 3 am. Judging from the enormous amount of "new" information being found in the Japanese records and translated for such things as John Alden's new submarine book (see the review of mine in the book forum) I would bet the stuff you are looking for is there, and there is somebody out there who knows how to find it.

Don't give up on it, that's for sure! The contributions of the British and Dutch submarines to the war in the Pacific/Far East is well worth a book as is the pre-war history of these units and has been (of course) slighted in all American books, even Clay Blair's study, simply since Americans considered all that "peripheral" to the "main actions" all being done by (of course) the US Navy. The perception is wrong, and needs historical revising. And there are a lot of British sailors who are long overdue for recognition.

[dennis a feary]

Hello DON, only just seen your reply whilst `browsing the Forum Threads'.
Thanks for a long & most interesting `confirmation' of US `keep `em out' thinking. Have NO idea as to how to `invade' the Jap Archives but would love to have a `sniff' around & see if there are any reports of RN Submarines in their archives. Think I have already mentioned that the Japs were spmewhat `miffed' at the RN Subs for having sneaked into Tokyo Bay & photo'd the AKAGI etc.
Was looking for Depot Ships & found this instead - pleased I did !!

Sadsac

[Don Boyer]

Sadsac:

Saw your post...is there any documentation of British sub penetrations of Japanese territorial waters? Not that I doubt your word in the slightest, it's just that I have always kept an ear out for what sneaky things US subs were up to just prior to WWII.

There was ONE line in "And I Was There" by Layton that suggested very strongly that US subs had been sent out prior to WWII to "investigate" the southern islands and probably other areas for intelligence purposes. The book contains NO confirmation of this. Furthermore, since it was pre-war, there were no "patrol reports" to indicate such. If any occurred, the reports would have been classified top secret and gone to the intelligence gurus. Nothing of that nature has been de-classified yet. I plan a Freedom of Information Act request letter someday to Naval Intelligence on the subject.

It had NOT occurred to me that our British allies might have done the same! A penetration such as you describe in peacetime could be considered an act of war if one was caught at it, which is what made me think of any accurate documentation. Would love to here about it if so.

Regards,

[dennis a feary]

DON, I know that RORQUAL did patrols in 1939, but just around the Sunda Straits & beyond. They certainly saw Jap & American ships `patrolling'. Quite where I have seen / heard of the episodes in Tokyo Bay I am not too sure off-hand. I believe the boats to have been `P' Class, but may well have been the large `ocean going' boats the `O' Class.
Will have to do some `lookiing-up'.

Sadsac

[Don Boyer]

One of the projects on my list has been to pursue this tale of pre-war submarine espionage, if such occurred and it seems most likely that it did -- after all, look what has happened since WWII!

Like a lot of things, it sits on my list, and when I look around, I see a wife and family on one hand, a job on the other, and the lawn needs mowing....sigh!

I have gone so far as to inquire at the usual submarine records sources and have come up with nothing, as these patrols were "pre-war" and undoubtedly classified from start to finish, which means approaching the dreaded intelligence community historians with their ready-to-hand "top secret" stamps....:)

By this time, one would hope much if not all of that material would be reviewable for declassification if not already declassified. And of course, the process of prying that material loose means finding it first, and then paying out the nose to get ones hands on copies, as I can't travel by air anymore.

Would be some fun research though, and I wish you the best in your endeavors on the Royal Navy end! If I run across anything bearing on the RN submarines, I will let you know.

Regards,

[dennis a feary]

DON, thanks, and be pleased to see anything you come across.
`Mow the lawn' ?? I have the cure for that - every year I plant a bit more CONCRETE - probably upsets the Bird Twatchers, and organic people, but they do not have to follow the nasty smelly thing around on a hot summers morning when a chap should, by all rights, be in the PUB !!!!

Sadsac

[dennis a feary]

Don, just caught up with this Thread again - whilst looking for something entirely different !
The `sneaky patrols' to which we have been writing MAY be able to be found in the boats LOGS, which are available in the PRO's here in England. Next visit to NA I will have a `sniff' around the logs & see what I can `dig-up'.

Sadsac

[patroclus]

One of the projects on my list has been to pursue this tale of pre-war submarine espionage, if such occurred and it seems most likely that it did -- after all, look what has happened since WWII!

Regards,

Alastair Mars in his book "British Submarines at War 1939-1945" deals briefly with the activities of the RN submarines in the Far East in the 1930s and in 1939-40 (before they were withdrawn to the Med). He comments on their ability to receive messages from Rugby when submerged in the Sea of Japan and talks of photographing the Soviet ports as far north as the ice edge in the Gulf of Tartary.

[Rob Hoole]

I recommend going to the Index (http://www.naval-review.org/tblcont.asp) page of the Naval Review website and typing 'China' in the article titles search box. You may be surprised by what you find.

[Linton]

Many thanks to you all for the advice.