Submarine AE2

[vivian]

Good morning!

I've just finished watching an interesting documentary on the History Channel about a dive on the wreck of AE2. It mixed a re-enactment of the events in 1915 with recent footage of a dive team trying to establish whether EA2 could be raised. The one hour program was not enough and I am left wondering what the present situation is. From what I can determine this was filmed in September 2007.

Does anyone know more about EA2's prospects today?
I can't see anything in the forum but that may just be my oversight.

Thanks and regards,
Viv

[herakles]

She was positively identified in 1998 and the Australians and Turks started talking a year ago to determine if she could be raised.

The wreck is a hellofa mess now and it might be unlikely that a rescue can be made.

Most of her crew died in Turkish POW camps having suffered appallingly.

[astraltrader]

Viv - Expanding a little on what Herk correctly said about last years joint Australian and Turkish investigation into the feasibility of raising the submarine AE2 - you might find this link to the front page of the Sydney Morning Herald of curiosity value...;)


http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/gallipolis-valiant-sub-poised-to-surface-from-the-depths-ofhistory/2007/09/09/1189276544462.html

[herakles]

That interesting front page is a year old. So I feel the optimism expressed there might be unfounded. The boat has suffered a lot and has broken up.

Anyway, here's hoping. Especially as no-one seems to know the whereabouts of AE1.

[Batstiger]

On ebay this week.

LARGE PHOTOGRAPH,-21cm.x16.5cm/8.25"x6.5"-OF THE ROYAL NAVY SUBMARINE HMAS A.E.2 DURING WW1.SOME MINOR CREASING AND REPAIR,OTHERWISE GOOD CONDITION.

HMAS A.E.2,built by Vickers,launched 18/6/1913.Scuttled after damage by shore batteries,Sea of Marmara,30/4/1915.

Australia’s first submarines, the AE1 and the AE2 , were launched in 1913 and were manned by composite Australian and British crews.

At the outbreak of the First World War, the AE1 and the AE2 were sent from Sydney to German New Guinea with the Australian Naval & Military Expeditionary Force and helped to capture the German colony. On 14 September, a day after the official German surrender of the colony, the AE1, commanded by Lieutenant Commander Thomas Besant, left Rabaul harbour to patrol Cape Gazelle, and never returned. The fate of the submarine was never known, but it is probable that the submarine was caught on a coral reef and sunk.

The AE2, commanded by Lieutenant Commander H. S. Stoker, achieved fame for its operations in the Dardanelles. The AE2 was ordered to sail through the Dardanelles, and disrupt Turkish shipping in the Sea of Marmora. No other submarine had yet managed to breach the Turkish defences, but in the early hours of 25 April 1915, the AE2 got past minefields and land-based guns, and after torpedoing a Turkish destroyer, it reached the Sea of Marmora. The AE2 remained at large for five more days before sustaining irreparable damage while under heavy fire. Stoker was forced to sink the submarine and surrender. He and his crew spent the rest of the war in Turkish captivity. Stoker was awarded the Distinguished Service Order after the war.

The wreck of AE 2 was located in 1988, and rest today on her keel, partly buried in the sand on a depth of seventy two meters. The submarine is remarkably in a good condition after all the years at the bottom of the sea, and most details could still be seen when the wreck was visited for the first time since 1915 by divers...


Bob.

[astraltrader]

That interesting front page is a year old. So I feel the optimism expressed there might be unfounded. The boat has suffered a lot and has broken up.


Couldn`t agree more Richard, which is why I said in my post that you "rightly said" and also advised that the year old page was mainly for "curiosity value":)

[vivian]

Thank you all for the good information. Yes, it does sound like a long shot to raise her but perhaps there'll be more opportunities to dive and film.

thanks and regards
Viv

[battlestar]

G'Day All

I know that some of the best corrosion experts from the WA Maritime Museum have been on this, I'll try and find out more.

And remember, AE-1 is still out there, location unknown.

[herakles]

I posted this a month ago: http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2322

[Kevin Denlay]

Hi Folks,

Re the wreck if AE2. First, it is actually in very good condition, that is, in one piece and not broken up at all.

Second, if I recall correctly, the most recent statement from Aust Govt / Heritage Department was that the wreck was not going to be raised because of the costs involved and the amount of time / commitment / money it would take to raise, preserve and rehabilitate it into a display piece.

As for damage, as far as I know the worst damage to the wreck was caused during the expedition of 2007 when one of the mooring anchors for the support vessel broke loose in a storm and dragged across the bow of AE2.

PS. Many of my friends were divers on both the initial discovery expedition and the 2007 expedition.

As for AE1, although another search expedition was planned for January 2009 given the current economic climate it is not sure if it will go ahead at that date.

K

[Kevin Denlay]

Bob,

Tried to find the AE2 image on eBay but no luck. Can you post the link?

K

[vivian]

Thanks for that info Kevin.
I noted that there were some very dangerous moments for the divers in 2007.

thanks and regards
Viv

[battlestar]

G'Day All

FYI...There is a full size replica conning tower of AE-2 in the Western Australian Maritime Museum.

http://www.museum.wa.gov.au/maritime/exhibtions/naval.asp

has a poor image of it, I'll see if I can find a better view.

[Batstiger]

Kevin, see PM.

Bob.

[Kevin Denlay]

Thanks for that info Kevin.
I noted that there were some very dangerous moments for the divers in 2007. thanks and regards
Viv

Hi Viv,

Yes, the woman diver who had the accident is extremely lucky to be alive, as - thankfully for all concerned - the accident happened while still shallow. If not for the quick reactions of her dive partner getting her back to the surface and then the surface support crew working diligently to revive her, the outcome could have been quite different.

And thanks for the PM Bob.

K

[HMS Bergamot]

You mean this one?

[battlestar]

G'Day All

Yeah, thats it. Norm O'Neill, the head of the Navy Exhibit at the WAMM at the time and a great mate, pushed to get this project through. I remember the hassel in getting it to the first floor of the museum!

[BALTICSUBS]

Hi All,

i was over in Perth to see the filming of the internal parts of the program in January this year, and had the pleasure of speaking to a member of the dive team. About the raising, one major issue they spoke of was the fact they were uncertain if AE2 did in fact use every torpedo, and they fear there could still be a live warhead on one remaining torpedo.

Couple of set photos attached.

DB.

[battlestar]

G'Day All

DB, great photos!

I was cleaning out one of my hard drives when I came across a bunch of RAN ship plans, including this one of the E class submarine (for those that don't know the AE meant Australian E class)

Enjoy

[vivian]

Thanks DB, yes I can see how a possible live warhead would be a show stopper. Interesting to see the photos too.

Thank you all for updating the story of AE2 thus far. Please post if you hear of any new activity.

thanks and regards
Viv

[BALTICSUBS]

Hi Ian,

the plan you posted is of the B11 and not an E class sub, looks something to do with the large model of the B class submarine in Holbrook NSW Australia. Nice plan though.

DB.

[herakles]

Here's an interesting new slant on AE2 from today's Age newspaper:

Gallipoli submariner died haunted by guilt

Marika Dobbin
November 6, 2008http://images.theage.com.au/2008/11/05/257396/svGALLIPOLI-420x0.jpg Benita Buchanan (left) with Vecihi and Hatice Basarin. Photo: Pat Scala

GEOFFREY Haggard died at 51 without getting over the guilt that he had inadvertently contributed to the deaths of thousands of Australian troops at Gallipoli.

He was second in command of Australian submarine HMAS AE2 in 1915 when it became the first Allied vessel to penetrate the heavily mined and guarded Dardanelles, encouraging Britain to launch its bloody Gallipoli campaign.

At the launch of the book Beneath the Dardanelles about HMAS AE2 at the Shrine of Remembrance yesterday, Mr Haggard's granddaughter, Benita Buchanan, spoke of his lifelong anxiety over the implications of his mission.

"When they suddenly got through the Dardanelles, they sent a wireless message to headquarters telling of their success and that is probably why the Gallipoli campaign went ahead," Ms Buchanan said.

"He lived with that for a long time, worried because he knew that that'd been a complete disaster for so many men losing their lives."

In the wake of Paul Keating's recent criticism of the view that Australia's national identity was forged at Gallipoli, the book's co-authors, husband and wife Vecihi and Hatice Basarin, yesterday offered to take the former prime minister on a tour of the Turkish peninsula.

Mr Basarin said Mr Keating did not understand that most pilgrims to Gallipoli came away with an overwhelming sense of the tragedy and sacrifice endured by both sides.
"I think he is worried about the nationalistic jingoism that is creeping in, but he is not saying that," Mr Basarin said.

"He's wrong in understanding what Gallipoli means to people … It's an event on Anzac day which is not advertised yet it is growing year by year, so there is obviously something quite special to draw people to that particular place in our history."

Descendants of the submariners and the Turkish Consul-General Aydin Nurhan said they hoped the AE2 wreck would be recovered.

(The Keating - Gallipoli affair rattles on)

[Tim Smith]

Dear Viv and Members

New to this Forum.

I am a member of the Australian-Turkish team assessing the wreck of the WW1 E-class submarine AE2. Yes, our archaeological expedition team, under direction of the AE2 Commemorative Foundation (established by the Submarine Institute of Australia SIA), undertook an archaeological survey of the wreck site in Sept 07. I had previously been involved in the 1997 Turkish search (no outcome) and the 1998 inspection of the wreck after its discovery by Selcuk Kolay that year.

The findings of the 2007 expedition can be found at the SIA web site

www.submarineinstitute.com

Members of the team returned to Istanbul in April 2008 to decide on the preferred management options for the site at a technical Workshop. The overiding decision was to promote AE2's retention in situ but to look at options to safeguard it through legislation, surveillance and perhaps cathodic protection. Both the Australian and Turkish Governments have been provided with a copy of the workshop outcomes for deliberation.

The AE2CF is currently developing an AE2 web site to tell the broader story of AE2 and to disseminate all scholarly materials and a range of historic records. A heritage plaques project is underway at key Australian and Turkish sites visited by AE2, while Australian school-based curricula course materials are also being considered to tell the AE2 Gallipoli naval story better to school kids.

Kind regrads

Tim

Tim Smith
Director-Maritime Archaeology AE2CF

[herakles]

G'Day Tim and welcome to the forum. I hope you enjoy your time here.

Thanks for posting this information about AE2. It's good to read that things are in hand.

Now for AE1!! :confused:

[vivian]

Hi Tim, thanks very much for that information and the link to the website. I'm pleased to hear about the present activity. It sounds as if everything that can be done is being done. That's great to know.
I hope you will enjoy this forum Tim, there's a ton of good info and generous people.

all the best,
thanks and regards
Viv

[HMS Bergamot]

I don't know if this is a common view of AE-2, but its the only one I've got at the moment, so I post it here for you all, or y'all if in the US. (You'se if in the south!):D

[Bear]

Most of her crew died in Turkish POW camps having suffered appallingly.

They were badly treated, but only 4 died in captivity, the rest being repatriated in 1919.

[Kevin Denlay]

As an aside, the search for her sister ship, AE1, lost near Rabaul PNG in the opening stages of WW1, will recommence early next week. :) That is, if the flooding on the mid north coast of NSW doesn't stop one of the main participants making it to the airport on Saturday!:(

Kevin

[Kevin Denlay]

AE1 Update.

Well the expedition members are back from Rabaul and sadly, again, came up empty handed. Disappointingly volcanic ash has almost completely buried another wreck in their main search area, so if AE1 was where it was hoped she might be (this time), then she is well and truly buried. Hopefully more high tech equipment (than regular sonar and the Mk 1 eyeball) can be employed in the future to sub profile the bottom.

Anyway, they gave it their best shot given the circumstances.

[peyk]

wwI çanakkale sub wars. marmara sea uk.france and australian submarines
attack ottoman naval and supply convoys
this submarines attack to prevent ottoman naval warships sultanhisar
under the commandof lt.rıza delected the australian submarine ae 2 in marmara sea on 25 april 1915 and attacked her periscope by gun fire and forced to surface on 30 april 1915 and after surrendering the crew she sunk her
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[Bear]

The captain of the Turkish gunboat, Sultan Hissar, which was involved in the sinking of AE2 wrote a very silly account of the action in the mid-1940s not long before he died. In that article he claimed to have fought a tactical battle with Stoker and to have outsmarted him. The thrust of the article is meant to embellish his place in history.
The truth was that AE2 lost diving trim as she dived to avoid the gunboat. This caused the sub to lurch to the surface. Stoker then flooded his forward tanks and took her down again. AE2 went wildly out of control and kept going down way past the 100 foot limit of her depth gauges. She blew tanks and surfaced stern first and gunners on Sultan Hissar put three holes in the sub's engine room. As there was now no way she could dive again, Stoker order the crew to abandon the boat and with the help of his 1st lieutenant scuttled the sub. Stoker went back to the wardroom to pick up a briefcase containing money among other things he thought might come in handy and he narrowly avoided going down with the sub.
The captain of the gunboat gives a ludicrous word picture of Stoker standing on the deck of the submarine saluting the white ensign as the sub goes down. Strange sub flying the ensign under water.
As we now know more about the layers of fresh and salt and warm and cold water in our oceans, and particularly in this part of the Sea of Marmora (or Marmara, whichever you prefer), it is now thought that the sub hit a layer and that is what caused the loss of diving trim. Perhaps one of our diving fraternity might like to comment on this.

[Jackaroo]

Good morning!

I've just finished watching an interesting documentary on the History Channel about a dive on the wreck of AE2. It mixed a re-enactment of the events in 1915 with recent footage of a dive team trying to establish whether EA2 could be raised.
Thanks and regards,
Viv

I have a dvd copy of that documentary. It's called GALLIPOLI SUBMARINE The Incredible True Story of The Australian Submarine AE2.


You can see what Tim Smith looks like:)

Cheers
Jack :cool:

[Guz rating]

I have a dvd copy of that documentary. It's called GALLIPOLI SUBMARINE The Incredible True Story of The Australian Submarine AE2.


You can see what Tim Smith looks like:)

Cheers
Jack :cool:

Hello Jack,

The dvd sounds very interesting I will see if I can locate a copy. Henry Stoker wrote a book called "Straws in the Wind" I knew his only living relative living in the UK. Her name was Primrose Stoker she was an old lady and has since passed away. She said he left the navy because of broken promises by the high command. She offered me his papers but I was very busy doing other things at time. And to be honest I was not very interested. I suggested the National Maritime Greenwich. I heard later she gave them to a diver Who was diving on the
AE2. Do you know if they ever recovered the boat. Henry Stoker was Bram Stoker's cousin.

Regards
Alan

[Jackaroo]

Hello Jack,

The dvd sounds very interesting I will see if I can locate a copy. Henry Stoker wrote a book called "Straws in the Wind" I knew his only living relative living in the UK. Her name was Primrose Stoker she was an old lady and has since passed away. She said he left the navy because of broken promises by the high command. She offered me his papers but I was very busy doing other things at time. And to be honest I was not very interested. I suggested the National Maritime Greenwich. I heard later she gave them to a diver Who was diving on the
AE2. Do you know if they ever recovered the boat. Henry Stoker was Bram Stoker's cousin.

Regards
Alan

Alan, I found this in the Naval Association of Australia (NAA) journal the White Ensign of April 2008.
A joint Turkish-Australian workshop in Istanbul in 2008 voted to protect and preserve in situ the historic Australian submarine AE2. The workshop convened by the Turkish Institute of nautical Archaeology (TINA) and the Submarine Institute of Australia (SIA). It was attended by 81 delegates and 40 members of the media and students.
AE2 Foundation chairman Rear Admiral Peter Brigs RAN (rtd) said ‘After two days of comprehensive debate, the workshop resolved to recommend to both the Turkish and Australian governments that the submarine be protected and preserved where she rests and that the stories of both the AE2 and Sultanhisar (the torpedo boat that damaged the AE2) be told to the people of Turkey and Australia.’
'We have recommended that the submarine should be protected by two buoys, an underwater shield, an anti-intruder surveillance system and sacrificial anodes against corrosion. An archaeological assessment of the interior of the submarine should be conducted. These measures would protect and preserve one of the last remaining significant relics of the Gallipoli Campaign, which is important to the national heritage of both countries.’

The ANZC centenary in 2015 should be used to commemorate the naval action associated with the Gallipoli campaign, in particular the encounter between AE2 and the Sultanhisar.
Cheers
Jack :cool:

[Bear]

Stoker's book "Straws in the Wind" is available in the Australian National Library. You can also buy it from antiquarian booksellers on the net, but be prepared to pay around $350 Australian for it. It can also be found almost in its entirety on the net if you look wisely.
The book itself is, I think, an extension of Stoker's 1919 report into the loss of AE2. He wrote that from notes made while in captivity.
The official history of WW1 in the volume about the RAN:
The Royal Australian Navy 1914—1918. By Arthur W.Jose. Angus & Robertson, 1935
which is available from libraries and some booksellers has verbatim quotes that I think comes from Stoker's notes, although Jose fails to credit his source.
Certainly the text is much the same as that in 'Straws in the Wind'. I think Stoker probably polished it up a bit for the book.

About the torpedo...there is certainly one live warhead left in AE2 from what I understand reading of her adventures in the Sea of Mamara.

[Guz rating]

Thank you Jack and Bear for the information. I hope Stokers papers went to the RSL which I am a member of. When I browsed the papers at that time I never realised the importance of these papers to Australia. I had never heard of Henry Stoker. My interest was her other relative Bram Stoker. Primrose was adamant that The the admirals had broken their promises and the other sub commanders who went in after him received the V.C. and he got the D.S.O. When he was offered another sub he resigned his commission. Why the D.S.O. and not the V.C. I think when Henry was released from captivity the Gallipoli Campaign was a dirty word and that was why Henry did not get his V.C. politics.

Regards
Alan.

[Bear]

Stoker was miffed at not getting the VC. Admiral de Roebeck, when giving Stoker his orders to penetrate the Dardanelles, told him that if he succeeded, "there is nothing we won't do for you". Stoker made no public comments about his disappointment, but Primrose did after he died. As you say, the 2 captains that followed Stoker received the VC. They did sink a lot more ships than AE2 though. Stoker did comment to Primrose and to friends that he considered his not being awarded the VC to be partly because the RN and the British government did not value the contributions made by the dominion forces. Given the fact that no Australian sailor has ever worn the blue ribbon of the Naval VC, he was no doubt correct.
You are also right that by the time Stoker returned in 1919 no one wanted to mention Winston Churchill's debacle at the Dardanelles.
By the time Turkey sued for peace in 1918, Allied submarines had sunk more than half of the Turkish merchant fleet and many of her warships.
If the RN had realised the importance of submarines in the Sea of Marmara while the Gallipoli Campaign was being fought, they could have forced Turkey to concede. At one stage the subs had cut the supply lines by sea and the Turkish troops were down to 160 rounds per man. Demolition and guerrilla parties from the submarines also harassed Turkish land communications, especially the vital rail link that was the only other way of getting reinforcements, ammunition and supplies to the peninsular. The subs also shelled railway bridges, tunnels, viaducts and occasionally, trains.
Stoker became an actor after resigning from the RN in the early 20s. He captained a J class sub in 1919-20 I think, and was offered command of a cruiser, but chose to leave the navy. In World War Two he was promoted to captain and captained a Royal Navy shore establishment.
He had a successful career on stage and screen working in major roles with actors of the stature of Olivier and Gielgud. You will see him from time to time in films from the 30s, 40s and 50s on late night telly.
As an old man a couple of years before his death in the 1960s, Stoker became the Irish croquet champion. He was quite a character.

[Guz rating]

Bear I never knew anything had been published were Primrose commented on Stoker. I'd love to read it, she lived 100 yds from me in Blackheath London. I used to see her working in her garden when she heard my accent she asked me if I came from Dublin. Then she told she told me her family came from Dublin. I never thought about Stoker until I joined this forum. There might be many reasons to consider why he did not get the highest award. The Irish rising Dublin 1916, Michael Collins assassination squad killing British intelligence officers and special branch police officers. And a Royal Navy intelligence officer Erskin Childers was a member of Collin's War Council. By 1919 several Australian soldiers had been awarded the V.C. Im not flying the flag for G.B. I was a serving soldier in the Australian Army in Vietnam as was my brother. And my great uncle was a WW1 vet, and a local hero around Port Adelaide where he lived until he died. When we got back from Vietnam we were treated like lepers. That,s why we left, and I suppose Stoker felt just as disillusioned when he left the navy. I wish you would fill in your profile so I would know who I am talking to. And im sure you have another name, other then Bear.

Regards

Alan

[Bear]

Alan. I will fill in my profile--didn't reaise I hadn't done that. My name is Allen Lyne, I'm ex-navy, also served in Vietnam X 2 and Borneo during Confrontation X 2. I have written one book about the RAN and am now in the process of writing a second.
I also live in Adelaide as I gather do you from your reference to the Port.
Cheers.

[Kevin Denlay]

Not sure if it is mentioned elsewhere in this thread but a book that is readily available on Stokers exploits is - Stokers Submarine by F and E Brenchley

[Guz rating]

Alan. I will fill in my profile--didn't reaise I hadn't done that. My name is Allen Lyne, I'm ex-navy, also served in Vietnam X 2 and Borneo during Confrontation X 2. I have written one book about the RAN and am now in the process of writing a second.
I also live in Adelaide as I gather do you from your reference to the Port.
Cheers.

Hi Allan,

Its a pleasure to make contact, and yes I did live in Adelaide We lived in Modbury, and later in Walkerville to be nearer my uncle who was getting old. He lived in his area since 1914 he had a truck and car repair business since 1922. I have great memories of Adelaide I should imagine its totally changed after nearly fifty years. I remember with affection now, but not then the six o'clock swill. The day we captured a little Joey in the garden, and its breath smelled of new mown grass. And the visits to the beach on the weekends. I don't know if you remember this, but some cars that were imported from Britain came in big wooden packing cases. Some guys bought them and converted them to beach huts. We used to stay in them on the weekend. I talk to my brother everyday on the phone I told him about making contact with a man from Adelaide. And all the memories came flooding back.

Take care of yourself,

Alan.

[Guz rating]

Not sure if it is mentioned elsewhere in this thread but a book that is readily available on Stokers exploits is - Stokers Submarine by F and E Brenchley

Thank you Kevin I only knew of "Straws in the Wind" I shall look out for it.
I must say I am a bit disillusioned about the highest awards for the commanders of these boats when the crew hardly get recognised.

Regards

Alan.

[dennis a feary]

Well, Stoker did get an award and recognition of his services from Admiral Commanding East Med Sqdn. here is award and some service details ;

STOKER Henry H.G.D. DSO. LT CDR. 31.12.14.
A.10. 16. 1.09. ONYX.
B.5. IN COMMAND. 01. 1.10. FORTH.
card added to by (Officers WW1 Honours book - D.A. Feary)

STOKER. Henry H.G.D. LT CDR. 31.12.14. `AE.2'.
V.A. COMMANDING EASTERN MEDITERRANEAN SQUADRON.
GAZETTE 22. 4.19. D.S.O.
In recognition of his gallantry in making the passage of the
Dardenelles. `AE.2' was the first submarine to enter the Sea of
Marmora.

Sadsac

[Guz rating]

Well, Stoker did get an award and recognition of his services from Admiral Commanding East Med Sqdn. here is award and some service details ;

STOKER Henry H.G.D. DSO. LT CDR. 31.12.14.
A.10. 16. 1.09. ONYX.
B.5. IN COMMAND. 01. 1.10. FORTH.
card added to by (Officers WW1 Honours book - D.A. Feary)

STOKER. Henry H.G.D. LT CDR. 31.12.14. `AE.2'.
V.A. COMMANDING EASTERN MEDITERRANEAN SQUADRON.
GAZETTE 22. 4.19. D.S.O.
In recognition of his gallantry in making the passage of the
Dardenelles. `AE.2' was the first submarine to enter the Sea of
Marmora.

Sadsac

Yes Dennis I knew he was awarded the D.S.O. His reason for resigning his commission was not receiving the Victoria Cross. As others had who went in after him. My argument is he received the D.S.O. surely all the crew deserved the D.S.M. I have always had a gripe with officers receiving honours on behalf of crews or companies. The objective was achieved by them all. Stoker was the first submarine commander to sail 12000 miles in a sub.

alan.

[dennis a feary]

GUZALAN Quite agree re Officers getting the big gongs.
Usually the crew did receive a gong of some sort but sometimes the result of a lottery. That was very often the case in WW1 - take the Zeebrugge / Ostend raid as a `for instance'.

Sadsac

[Guz rating]

Dennis when I was half way into answering your post I spilled a full mug of coffee into my laptop. I thought that signalled a trip down to PC World. But I managed to save it God help it, and it seems to work better then before. I won't say any more about the disparity about awards, in case my old skipper is watching and getting his own back.:eek::D

Alan

PS I don't recommend a mug of coffee as a way to revitalise ones computer.:eek:

[Bear]

I have performed the mug of coffee trick on a laptop and unfortunately not with the good effects of yours, Alan. That's history and so is that laptop!
Some members of Stoker's crew got gongs after their return from captivity. The First Lieutenant got the DSC, the third officer onboard was granted a MID (I think) and a couple of the Chiefs got the DSM.
There were occasions in the RN where all of the crew were entitled to wear the skipper's VC on their uniforms. I'm pretty sure that was the case with B11, the sub that torpedoed a Turkish battleship or heavy cruiser before the start of the naval campaign in the Dardanelles.
It did get up the noses of crewmen to hear often pompous officers telling them that their awards were in honour of all of them. I have read that a couple of times in personal memoirs.

[Guz rating]

Hi Allen,

Thank you for your reply, my laptop seems to be working better then it did be sfore. I took it all apart cleaned it and dried it with a hair drier, then reinstated all the loose bit. I recommend checking all the loose bits, but not the coffee. If you get a chance take a look at post 41, Your web is great I've bookmarked it, your a very talented man.

Regards Alan.

[JOHN STOKER]

:) Hi by my surname you will know I am related to H.H.G.Dacre Stoker. Yes Primrose did have his papers, and she past them on at his request to his Godson Dacre Stoker in Canada. He is the great grandnephew of Bram Stoker. In turn he gave me a copy of some of his papers. I have sent some photos and letters to the Navy Museum in Sydney were I think they should go. Dacre Stoker has just wrote a new Dracula book and its out now. He told me he had plans to write a book on the life and times of H.H.G. and would be using his photos and letters. I must point out that though out his life he never forgot his ship mates on both the AE1 and 2 and letters past to all they wrote to him and in turn he did all he could do for his men. In the 2nd world war he was on the staff of the D-Day planing plus other things. Still you should read his book Straws in the wind, all so Stokers Submarine. the later is one good read.We the Stoker family are very interested in the AE1 and 2 so that is why I have posted this letter so as to have contact with all interested parties . Regards to all John

[Guz rating]

:) Hi by my surname you will know I am related to H.H.G.Dacre Stoker. Yes Primrose did have his papers, and she past them on at his request to his Godson Dacre Stoker in Canada. He is the great grandnephew of Bram Stoker. In turn he gave me a copy of some of his papers. I have sent some photos and letters to the Navy Museum in Sydney were I think they should go. Dacre Stoker has just wrote a new Dracula book and its out now. He told me he had plans to write a book on the life and times of H.H.G. and would be using his photos and letters. I must point out that though out his life he never forgot his ship mates on both the AE1 and 2 and letters past to all they wrote to him and in turn he did all he could do for his men. In the 2nd world war he was on the staff of the D-Day planing plus other things. Still you should read his book Straws in the wind, all so Stokers Submarine. the later is one good read.We the Stoker family are very interested in the AE1 and 2 so that is why I have posted this letter so as to have contact with all interested parties . Regards to all John

Hello John,

Thank you for the information I will make sure to obtain a copy of the books you mentioned. When I met Primrose she was very dedicated to the memory of Henry Stoker and I had never heard of him at that time. I have read and heard so much about him in the last year I can understand why he was such a hero to Primrose. I was interest in Bram Stoker because we lived on the Howth Road, close to were he was born and as kids played in the crescent. In the early 1990's before my mother died she told me her grand mother Henriette Martin, was on the same church committee in Clontarf as Bram Stokers mother. I don't know if you have read the book by Oliver St John Gogarty 'As I Was Going Down Sackville Street' there is quite
a lot about Sir Thornly Stoker, and a great insight into what it was like in Dublin at that time. If you can't
get a copy you can have mine.

Regards

Alan

[JOHN STOKER]

Hello Alan nice to meet you.
I was in Dublin in April for Bram Stokers one city one book. I was reunited with a lot of family. Brams G/Grandson. Dacre Stoker. David Norris. and lots more. The Church of St. Ann's had a service for the men of AE 1 AND 2 The Australian ambassador was there, and it was Anzac day. I went to Clontarf and the Crescent and lots of places. It was only last year that I had ever heard of AE1 and2. I was ask if I could link H.H.G.Dacre Stoker with the family, not only him but lots more. WOW what l found out was a very pleasant surprise. And I go to see my Son In Queensland so it was a big surprise to find out that H.H.G. is part of the fine history of Australia service. I am so proud of the part he played. I think it was fate that I was ask to find out about him. And I have a lot of his notes to look at and find out about the man. I will pass what I can to Sydney Museum it should be there, but my hands are tied as they belong to Dacre Stoker and he is going to write a book about his life. Kind Regards John:)

[Guz rating]

Hello Alan nice to meet you.
I was in Dublin in April for Bram Stokers one city one book. I was reunited with a lot of family. Brams G/Grandson. Dacre Stoker. David Norris. and lots more. The Church of St. Ann's had a service for the men of AE 1 AND 2 The Australian ambassador was there, and it was Anzac day. I went to Clontarf and the Crescent and lots of places. It was only last year that I had ever heard of AE1 and2. I was ask if I could link H.H.G.Dacre Stoker with the family, not only him but lots more. WOW what l found out was a very pleasant surprise. And I go to see my Son In Queensland so it was a big surprise to find out that H.H.G. is part of the fine history of Australia service. I am so proud of the part he played. I think it was fate that I was ask to find out about him. And I have a lot of his notes to look at and find out about the man. I will pass what I can to Sydney Museum it should be there, but my hands are tied as they belong to Dacre Stoker and he is going to write a book about his life. Kind Regards John:)

Dear John,

It is a great pleasure for me to have made contact, my interest in Bram was being aware of him as a child. Living in the same area, and experiencing Clontarf as he did. To experience Marino Crescent on a winters evening, with the wind howling through the trees blowing in from the sea. And the dark ivy covered church opposite the crescent, certainly got the imagination going. Or the grave yard at Clontarf Castle a favourite meeting place for teenagers. And did you know Bram's wife Florence Balcombe lived at number 1,The Crescent. Like you John my real interest and awareness of Henry Stoker, and what he did started after I retired. Primrose had a lot of information and memories, but unfortunately she is no longer here to ask. Questions I would ask now are who was Henry's father, and did Henry have any children. I seem to remember Primrose saying that she was a bridesmaid at Henry Stoker's wedding. She was a lovely lady and I am glad I met her.

Kindest regards

Alan.

[JOHN STOKER]

Hi Alan. Well first of all you can e mail me at john.stoker1938@tiscali.co.uk Henry's father was Dr William Stoker he had a brother and sister,He was married some time before the 1st world war. Sadly she had two children when he was in the hands of the Turks, so he divorce her and I have found out he look after the children, that was the kind of man he was. He haply married again and was really happy. The book he wrote was a good indicate to the kind of man he was. The story of him in a pub in Sydney, and a serviceman ask him why he was not in the service. That in it self was so like the Irish, have a good bit of banter. Like he mixed with all types and treated every one the same. He played tennis with King George 6 and lots of top players of that time. Was a top Croquet player and he won the all Ireland champion in his 70. He was so proud of that. Sailor. Actor, Sportsman, and a really nice person. What more can I add about H.H.G.Dacre Stoker? that with a bit of luck will be in a book about his life. Regards to all John.



If Only

[qprdave]

John

I have place an Obituary of Capt. H.G. Stoker in the Obituary Section that appeared in The Times on the 3rd February 1966

[JOHN STOKER]

Good Day to you all,
And thank you for the interest. I am in contact with Peter Richardson who has dived on the A.E.2 and was born in N.G. near to were A.E.1 went down. It is his Quest to try and find A.E.1 I do wish him all the luck in the World, we need people like him to show a interest, and know what they are doing. H.H.G. after the 1st war was in command of a submarine the K9 in Jan. 1919. Later on he was promoted to Commander and place on the waiting list with 87 commanders, now the R.N.was downsizes and his chances was small to get a command so he decided to become a Actor and placed himself on the Reserve. That is my understanding of the reason for him leaving the service, not because he was upset at not receiving the V.C. as far as I can gather from his notes he makes no comment on the subject. I must thank you all for keeping the memory of the fine men of A. 1 AND 2 alive. I am certain that t;)hey proud of you all. John.

I Have just had news about the finding of E 18 lost on patrol in the Baltic. In 1919 in the same way as A E 1. same number of men lost. They might find a reason for there loss. [Churchill's lost Submarine E18]

[JOHN STOKER]

Good Day to you all,
And thank you for the interest. I am in contact with Peter Richardson who has dived on the A.E.2 and was born in N.G. near to were A.E.1 went down. It is his Quest to try and find A.E.1 I do wish him all the luck in the World, we need people like him to show a interest, and know what they are doing. H.H.G. after the 1st war was in command of a submarine the K9 in Jan. 1919. Later on he was promoted to Commander and place on the waiting list with 87 commanders, now the R.N.was downsizes and his chances was small to get a command so he decided to become a Actor and placed himself on the Reserve. That is my understanding of the reason for him leaving the service, not because he was upset at not receiving the V.C. as far as I can gather from his notes he makes no comment on the subject. I must thank you all for keeping the memory of the fine men of A. 1 AND 2 alive. I am certain that t;)hey proud of you all. John.

IT TAKES MEN TO MAN A SHIP [and woman]

[JOHN STOKER]

I have just found a bit of news in the papers I have, H.H.G.Dacre Stoker in 1920 was offered the command of the Good ship Royal Arthur but as he had had been in the service over 20 years he retired. But was back in the Service in 1939 at the outbreak of war. With the rank of Captain. Web site for the vidio of the E18 is [Rons ROV Links E18 ] John:)

[Bear]

Thanks for that, John. I have wondered for some time what ship Stoker was offered just before he resigned.
The Royal Arthur was an Edgar Class Cruiser, built in the 1890s. All of the Edgar class were used as stores and depot ships after 1915. If Stoker was offered Royal Arthur in 1919 as I suspect, she was at that time the depot ship for the 1st submarine flotilla. It would hardly have been an exciting command for a man of Stoker's flair and energy, so the choice of ship and its function may have had something to do with his decision to resign. As you point out though, he had completed his 20 years and no doubt preferred to take his pension and try his hand at thespian pursuits. I wonder if his love of these and his direction after he left the RN had anything to do with performances during his captivity.
He apparently commanded a Royal Navy depot from 1939--1945 after his promotion to captain. Do you happen to know which one?

[JOHN STOKER]

Hi In Jan.1919 H.H.G. took command of a submarine K9 with a crew of 70 in Dec.1919 he was promoted to commander so he had to leave the sub. In 1939 he was promoted to Capt. and was the Flag officer to the Admiral in charged Belfast. In 1940 he was in command of HMS Minos a shore base in Lowestoft A anty invasion defence force after that, he was doing lots of jobs with the Navy that was top secret, in the early 1944 he was on the staff of Admiral Ramsay till the end of the war, I am only just going though the notes and they are hard to read as they are deteriorating, That is the reason I am doing this so its not lost. And see that he and the brave men on AE1 and 2 are not forgotten. John.

[Rushy]

I maybe just be getting old, bitter and twisted but I find these reasons to be somewhat offensive reasons for not raising the wreck, I would suggest that if it were to involve an Army unit then there would be no expense spared. I noticed in a recent interview with the Defence Minister that the order of seniority had become Army, Navy Air Force. I was proud of the time I spent in the RAN and I am more than aware that the sacrifices made in battle are predominately made by the Army but I am just fed up with the way the Navy is treated by the media and now politicians. Here in Qld it is almost impossible to find any mention of the Navy including at war memorials and that is one reason I will not join the RSL. This is a piece of Australian history that is going to be ignored because of bean counters, apathy and lack of knowledge


"because of the costs involved and the amount of time / commitment / money it would take to raise, preserve and rehabilitate it into a display piece."

Sorry that this rant is not quite on topic but I'm old and allowed to get bitter and twisted.

Cheers

Rushy

[Guz rating]

Rushy me old mate when your dragging sixty, then you can say you are getting old. But I got to say AE2 should be raised and a site found in "Sydney Harbour" to honour the men who were willing to risk there lives. Because they believed their action would shorten the war. The AE2 is not a war grave nobody died on it, the only thing stopping the AE2 being brought home is the will to do it. And I do agree with you the RAN does not get the the credit due to it. I had the honour of serving in the RN and Australian Army in 1968, we had total respect and understanding of what the navy did for us. You think you are a grumpy old man about politicians, if I told you what I think about them I'd be run out of town.

Take care

Alan

[Jackaroo]

I maybe just be getting old, bitter and twisted but I find these reasons to be somewhat offensive reasons for not raising the wreck, I would suggest that if it were to involve an Army unit then there would be no expense spared. I noticed in a recent interview with the Defence Minister that the order of seniority had become Army, Navy Air Force. I was proud of the time I spent in the RAN and I am more than aware that the sacrifices made in battle are predominately made by the Army but I am just fed up with the way the Navy is treated by the media and now politicians. Here in Qld it is almost impossible to find any mention of the Navy including at war memorials and that is one reason I will not join the RSL. This is a piece of Australian history that is going to be ignored because of bean counters, apathy and lack of knowledge


"because of the costs involved and the amount of time / commitment / money it would take to raise, preserve and rehabilitate it into a display piece."

Sorry that this rant is not quite on topic but I'm old and allowed to get bitter and twisted.

Cheers

Rushy

Well said Rushy!

Cheers
Jack :cool:

[JOHN STOKER]

Gday or should I say Hi. Yes we all should put our views about the AE2. I feel I must put this to you about the AE1 most people think like I do about finding AE1. It seems that people in power seem to take no notice of the report that a German prisoner bragged that he was on a German Naval ship SMS Planet that he was in charge of a small yacht with the name of Colonia when a submarine was hove to in Saint Georges Channel he approached her flying a White ensign and sunk her and ran over her. If true its just like the people in charge made the same mistake years later over not believing the German prisoners over the sinking and position of HMAS Sydney. It looks like history repeating itself. More should be done no mater the cost in finding the truth about the AE1. We all owe a dept to all who gave the most,there life I was in Deception Bay and had the joy of buying a badge of the ANZAC with a Submarine on it Right away I thought of the men of AE1 AND 2 I am looking at it now and will do so on Sunday sevice in my town In Southport England. Thank you Australia. John:)

[JOHN STOKER]

Hello. I have not posted any thing about the AE 2 as a lot has been said and I know that the crew of AE 2 would love to know what happened to the AE 1. I am, like I said in contact with Peter Richardson, and he is convinced that the AE 1 WAS SUNK BY Edwin Reuschel,The Australian Government at the time of the sinking of the AE 1 would not have wanted it to be known that a lowly YACHT sink a submarine with a m/gun. Why was not a mounting put on the submarine when she was in Garden Island. They must have not very interested in the defence of there submarines. Any how if they cannot come to terms with what happened to the AE 1 lets us keep looking to find out the truth and find the lost souls of Australia's FIRST Submarine.Get someone who cares and let them look for the AE 1 and not yes men. John'

I SAY WIND THEM UP;);)

[Rorqual]

Just a few words regarding AE 2 and the subject of raising her as a permanent memorial .
I was a helper when an inquiry was held prior to the exploratory dive on AE2. The outcome of the findings were that it was possibly dangerous and that the dive was to be kept as safe as possible .

I also believe the Turkish authorities were possibly not in favour of AE 2
being disturbed . She is part of Turkeys history and will be kept as a seabed
exhibit for future researchers.

Interesting post regarding AEI ---has any seabed searches been done in the area of the reported 'german account' of her demise.


F.

[BALTICSUBS]

Hi Fred,

was with a chap today who is behind raising her.

Big question, who owns that wreck? The Turks say she was surrendered to them, i thought they scuttled her and only the crew surrendered! What do you think.

DB

[Kevin Denlay]

Interesting post regarding AEI ---has any seabed searches been done in the area of the reported 'german account' of her demise.
F.

Over the years there have been several dedicated searches conducted off the Duke of York’s (in the area around and adjacent to AE1's last reported sighting) and also closer to Rabaul itself.

But where exactly did the supposed sinking incident by Edwin Reuschel that John Stoker refers to take place? ‘St Georges Channel' is a large body of water, so would need to know a more specific location to say if that area has been searched.

[JOHN STOKER]

Very Good. We are talking about AE 1 demise. Those who are supposed to be looking for her, are they asking the right people or are they following the official line of the sinking of the AE 1. Look at Peter Richardson account of the sinking, he is a diver, lived in Rabaul, knows more about the submarine, thinks the German did sink the AE 1. The person who should be looking for her is Peter. Look at the finding of the E class submarine in the Baltic Sea. after all the years. Found by a Australian living in Australia, but did the research in his living room, was dedicated in finding that submarine and was successful. Look at the time it took to find the Sydney. They did not believe peoples account of the sinking, but in the end they was proved right. Find out, no mater the cost. They {The Government } spend millions on rubbishy projects, but forget the Heroes of a by gone area, saying it cost to much. Ask Peter Richardson to look for her. Not the yes men.;)

[Kevin Denlay]

Hello John,

What you say is all well and good but my question remains as to a more precise location for the purported 'Reuschel sinking incident' than just 'St Georges Channel' as you mentioned in a previous post. I did have a look at Mr Richardsons web site to see if it was stated there but can find nothing re the actual location (or a description) of the supposed sinking by Reuschel.

Do you know actually where this incedent was supposed to have taken place (i.e off which harbour, anchorage, inlet, town, village, etc)?

If not do you know where one can read a description of the 'Reuschel indecent' that actually describes the sinking?

Regards,
Kevin

PS. If you look at the 'updates' page on the following web site you will get a little info with regards a couple of AE1 searches conducted earlier this year.
http://www.submarineae1.org.au/

[JOHN STOKER]

Hello Kevin. Good to here your interest on the fate of AE 1. Yes I have look at the searches last year. Seeing the web site and them on it , looks like who's who, no one with any knowledge of the AE1 only what is the official line.Look at Peter Richardson web site and see what he thinks. Remember the official line on the Sydney look any were but the right place and get the PALLS to look. John STOKER

[Peter.J.Richardson]

[I also believe the Turkish authorities were possibly not in favour of AE 2
being disturbed . She is part of Turkeys history and will be kept as a seabed
exhibit for future researchers.]
Posted by Rorqual.
I was fortunate to meet Selçuk Kolay in Istanbul in 2004. I had been working out of Baku, Azerbaijan in the Caspian Sea.
I took the opportunity to travel home via Turkey & made the time to meet Selçuk Kolay, the discoverer of the AE2 site.
At that time opinion was to raise the AE2 and site her in a brine bath near ANZAC Cove.
I suppose this would reduce on-going corrosion and would allow the tourist dollars to flow in sooner than if a full restoration was to take place.
In my experience the water would need to be zero oxygen to slow the rate of corrosion.
In an earlier post John Stoker said that I had dived the AE2. John has mis-understood my conversation on this issue.
I did however ask Selcuk to add me to a dive team if he was ever to re-visit the AE2.
"Mr Kolay started the project for the location of the WWI Australian submarine AE2 in the Sea of Marmara in January 1995 and located the wreck in June 1998. During the search in 1997 he restored the remains of a salvaged B-24 bomber and prepared an exhibition centred on it for the Rahmi M. Koç Museum."
The only thing I know about Selçuk in recent times is that he has found some of the WWII Romanian 'U' boats in the Black Sea.
"With no base and unable to sail home - the Bosporus and Dardanelles were closed to them because of Turkish neutrality - their captains were ordered to scuttle the boats before rowing ashore and trying to make their way back to Germany. However, all three crews were caught and interned by the Turks.
Now the submarines' hulls have been discovered by a team led by Selçuk Kolay, a Turkish marine engineer, who will present his findings to a shipwreck conference in Plymouth this week.
Mr Kolay established the boats' positions through research in German archives, interviews with surviving sailors and by sonar studies of the seabed."

I would understand then that there is not a chance of the AE2 ever reaching Australian soil.
And I don't know enough of the previous dive expeditions results to wonder if the AE2 is even 'salvageable'.
If Selçuk has not attempted the task or put a plan together, I doubt that it will ever eventuate.
I also took the time to see the 'narrows' at Canakkale, visit ANZAC Cove & the Gallipoli area. Very interesting.
Kind regards, Pete Richardson

[Rorqual]

Hi Fred,

was with a chap today who is behind raising her.

Big question, who owns that wreck? The Turks say she was surrendered to them, i thought they scuttled her and only the crew surrendered! What do you think.

DB

Hi Darren
not sure about wrecks and ownership. AE2 is in Turkish owned water
basically and she was sunk/scuttled and crew taken prisoner after being attacked and damaged by a Turkish Navy ship. AE2 was engaged in active hostile acts prior to being disabled and in war the old saying ''to the victor the spoils'' applies !!!
The other old saying is ''possession is 99% of ownership'' .
The crew of AE2 basically abandoned the boat after being shelled by the Turkish gunboat . AE2 was in a sinking condition and I think the crew basically verified that there was no chance of her staying afloat by opening sea valves/main vents etc to aid her final dive.

Think it would be nice to have her raised however lots of inputs would be required initially .Permission from the Turkish authorities-- plans being approved regarding her eventual use as a possible exhibit and of course a large amount of money to do the operation.



Fred

[Jackaroo]

Hello Jack,

The dvd sounds very interesting I will see if I can locate a copy. Henry Stoker wrote a book called "Straws in the Wind" I knew his only living relative living in the UK. Her name was Primrose Stoker she was an old lady and has since passed away. She said he left the navy because of broken promises by the high command. She offered me his papers but I was very busy doing other things at time. And to be honest I was not very interested. I suggested the National Maritime Greenwich. I heard later she gave them to a diver Who was diving on the
AE2. Do you know if they ever recovered the boat. Henry Stoker was Bram Stoker's cousin.

Regards
Alan


Alan you may find this link interesting.

http://www.abc.net.au/tv/geo/documentaries/interactive/submarine/

Cheers
Jack cool:

[BALTICSUBS]

Hi Fred,

I bet if AE2 was an ecological disaster waiting to happen it would be an Aussie wreck. When people speak of raising AE2 the concept from the Australians was not as we would think, it would be to lift her & place her in shallow water when people could view her, not on dry land. From what i can gather she may have a few bits & pieces now on peoples mantles at home.

As for AE1, after reading Peter Richardson’s website, and viewing John Fosters searches, where do you think they are at. John Foster does not believe the German vessel theory but at the same time has not found AE1. It is a shame the records for the German chap & his vessel are so difficult to dig up.

AE1 would have to be the strangest submarine losses of the war. I have read through the AE1 loss document, a big mistake seems to be Parramatta not following AE1 back to base, and why did she go the other way around Duke of York Island instead, completely opposite direction to the vessel they were supposed to be escorting. Parramatta's orders were to patrol with the submarine. I think they can all be very thankful there was no in depth inquiry into her loss.

If the theory of the German vessel is to be believed, then why wasn’t what the German said to the signalman followed up, or was it? This is where I notice people start to talk of a cover up. With a cover up you would have to ask why? Could the British/RAN do such a thing, I guess the answer is yes. The state of art battleship Audacious was sunk by a single German mine early in the war in 1914, this sinking was covered up, (well attempted), for a couple of reasons, strength of the battle feet and so on, but it was also shocking this battleship could be lost by such simple means, something they would not want the Germans to know. AE1 was, in 1914, a state of the art British E Class submarine, the last thing they would want the Germans to know is how simply she could be sunk by a small German vessel with a gun & ramming. It took the Germans to lose ships such as Prinz Adabert & Undine to realize you did not have to use larger important ships to carry out patrol duties where submarines operated. I noticed where this German chap claimed to have sunk AE1 has not been searched, close, but not right on the spot!

Diving accident, and this comment does not include striking an uncharted rock, but does anyone recall an E Class sub being lost like this? AE2’s Commander Stoker was possibly in the best position to know what Beasant could or would have done, and he was left scratching his head as to why AE1 would have been diving at this point. With all the work I have done with the Baltic subs, i would say yes they quite often carried out practice dives, but generally after maintenance, or part of training a few days before a patrol, and they would left someone know what they were doing, and quite often they were done with an escorting vessel on hand. As mentioned, it is not me here questioning why AE1 would do a practice dive, but another submarine commander who was there, and that is Stoker from AE2. When he wrote his book years later it still seemed to query the events of what actually happened. With the Baltic subs, they would only dive on their return to base if an enemy vessel showed itself. From her last sighting she was heading home, no doubt about that and her time frame meant she had 2.5 hours steaming remaining, just enough time to get back at 10 to 10.5 knots.

As mentioned, AE1 is a strange one. All the work I have done around E18, in the end the was no German ship involved as had been previously written, and really no great mystery, she suffered a simple navigation error & completed her final turn for home too early, but she had no land fix, and their next one was too late.

The parallels with AE1 & E18 are they both just vanished and no one saw the event, and E18 was lost in the huge area of water, somewhere between Memel & Dagerort, but I hope these guys keep digging for info or that missing document, as for me something is missing when it come to the research side on AE1. Let’s just hope something can be turned up.

Cheers DB

[Rorqual]

Hi Darren
lots of truth in your posting especially regarding AE1.

The fog of war I think is the ''in phrase'' sometimes with the conflicting statements regarding ship losses . Official documents sometimes got edited
possibly to give a feasable and accountable record of events . However if
it were possible to compare official records with actual happenings then
discrepancies begin to emerge.

Bad news is that AE 1 or E18 had no survivors or credible witnesses thus giving the official account free licence to give a reasonably informed guess
regarding their losses.

I think the 'German' account of AE1 's loss could be right-----AE1 doing
surface passage meeting a yacht flying a white ensign ?? would not have been prepared for any defensive ,evasive or offensive action .
Biggest anomaly really is why did AE1's surface escort leave her and go off
on a different track.

Untill AE1 is located and the wreck inspected then she will remain as lost
cause unknown .I sincerely hope she is found .



Fred


.

[BALTICSUBS]

Hi Fred,

we had 43 here the other day, i would hate to know what your temperature would be?

With submarine losses people tend to hang their hat on the no survivors issue. I have no doubt there would have been some from E18 that were in the water when she went down as i always predicted she would be on the surface when sunk, but she was 20 miles from land, no one was there to pick them up, they have nothing to cling too to stay afloat, no life vests, no wodden crates, deck chairs or whatever. They go in the water, tread for a short period in their woollies, and then sink & drown once exhausted.

With AE1, well where this German chap claims to have sunk her some men could have gone in the water as well. They all spoke of very strong currents on the day she went missing and no super human effort will get you ashore with boots on and so forth.The German chap did not speak of men in the water, so one would guess, if true, AE1 could have closed her hatch & began her dive when hit. Of course, the worst moment.

I also find it extremely odd that when Parramatta started her search she did not cover the ground where AE1 was last seen. Something is just not right with all this.

Parramatta's orders were to cover St Georges Channel to the southward with AE1, when she turned to the south east after fixing their position on Cape Gazelle AE1 turned to the northeast towards the Duke of York Islands without telling Parramattas's commander.

Some suspect Beasant was chasing a rumour of a German gunboat with the Duke of York Island Group which could explain his behaviour. So when Paramatta again sighted AE1 had she done a complete circuit of the Island group? Who knows. Did AE1 tell Parramatta anything we don't know about, to do with the suspected German vessel because once AE1 was missing from Parramatta's view at 1520 hrs, she went northwards and went around the top of the Islands as if looking for something instead of following AE1 which was more in line with patroling the southern entrance to St George Channel as she was supposed to.

You are definately right about what is written in say a patrol report after the event as apposed to a log written at the momment, or even a private diary. I have seen so many things that are different, one case in particular i read was a patrol report from E19 written by Francis Cromie, he chases a ship, it runs aground, water gets into the boilers, she explodes. He changed his story when he realised what he had done was in Swedish waters, so in truth he had fired on this vesel in neutral waters, drove her ashore, put men on board & blew her up. The diaries of two men confirm the unofficial story. One with E18, Halahan never disclosed he had surfaced off the enemys coast to take a dump when he believed they were bombed by a Zeppelin, he just wrote that they had been spotted at 20 feet.

So you are right, be careful with those reports as they could be full of misleading comments. I can see in his report that Parramatta's commander did not discolse he had stopped for an hour after he had lost AE1.

Cheers DB

[JOHN STOKER]

Hi Balticsubs and Fred.
First of all you are doing the wright thing asking why. WHY are the people searching in the official what the Government. said is the probable site of the sinking of AE1. There was the German Yacht that was beach supposed to have struck a reef.Come on, that Yacht was sailing the waters for a long time they would know were the reefs was. It would have suffered the same damage if it did strike the submarine. Get someone who knows the area Peter Richardson, and he can get a first class team to look for the AE1. Mr Foster and his crew have had long enough. The AE1 will be found like THE SYDNEY AND THE CENTAUR in the location that a lot of people know.Lets hope its the third find. So we can lay to rest the souls of the brave men of AE1.

John Stoker, some one that cares, do you?

[BALTICSUBS]

Hi John,

my opinion is to keep all options open on something like this. The German chap theory does need more investigation & back up, that is the way research is done. Build the case. Did he have prior knowledge of AE1’s demise before speaking to the signalman, we don’t know. You have to be careful he was not just taunting his captors. The vessel he said he was on, I’m sure Peter is heading in the right direction to find out more about her and only Peter will know what I’m talking about here. Searches cost a lot of money & time, and I’m a true believer in doing your homework first which I believe Peter will do before he has a look. Mearns found Sydney using common sense and putting aside all the Japanese sub theories and so forth. His brilliant research was in my eyes the main reason he solved this mystery. But as mentioned with AE1, from what I have seen, where the German chap said he did the deed has not been searched.

It is a good idea to throw up ideas and theories as we have done here.

Cheers DB.

[steve roberts]

Hi DB. If AE1 is ever located,it is to be hoped that the wreck sight is quickly made either a War Grave or at least a Protected sight.Look what happened in Truk Lagoon with wreck looters before the sights became protected. Steve.:o

[JOHN STOKER]

Hi Men
Good to see us talking about AE1 as long as we do we might get some one to have a look were the German said it went down. A lot of good money as already been spent looking in the wrong area. Keep plugging for Peter Richardson to have a look. John:)

[BALTICSUBS]

Hi Steve,

lets hope, and judging by where she may be, AE1 will be too deep for any theft to be carried out. Have little respect for those that steal from war graves, and they are out there!

The fact her wreck is not known by locals could indicate she is deep. I sometimes wonder about the logic in not retrieving items officially for say the Australian War Memorial, and i only say this as i would rather see items displayed there for a long lasting memorial to those poor chaps than stolen by individuals & displayed as a prize on a mantle shelf!

Cheers DB

[steve roberts]

Hi Db. I am in favour of certain small items being recovered from such wrecks by Official dives,so long as they are donated to the ships association or museums.These wrecks are the graves of many a brave man and deserve to be treated with the utmost respect.Take Royal OAK in Scapa Flow.She is officially a War Grave,and is only dived once a year by RN Divers to survey the wreck for enviromental hazzards and to replace the White Ensign.The scum who loot wrecks are dispicable.Look at Truck Lagoon where the locals make a complete living out of loot from the wrecks there.The Titanic is another example,as is the Andrea Doria.May these looters run out of air on a deep dive and suffer The Bends enternally. Regards Steve.

66310 We come unclean OOPs Unseen

[Guz rating]

Don't you think it would be better if we left the wrecks in peace, we have nothing to learn from them except to satisfy our own curiosity in most cases. And to dive on them and chart their position we make it easy for robbers. I hate the idea of grave robbing, any type, that includes the tomb robbers of Egypt.

Alan

[BALTICSUBS]

Hi Guz,

I agree with you totally, but reality is that people are pinching things, and that is the only reason for my comment. I was in Invergordon last year and was left shaking my head over HMS Natal which blew up in WW1. She was not declared a war wreck until the 1990's. So she had salvage work carried out over the years, and during the 1970's her remains were blown up as she was deemed as a hazard for the oil rigs which were being built and are still maintained there. The chap who showed me around their museum spoke of seeing one of Natal's crew's rings being seen for sale in Russia.

So what wins out, war grave or money for oil?

Also, not that this would happen, for arguments sake, why would it be so wrong to raise AE1 given some examples around the world. Time seems to me to eliminate any thought of men killed, the Mary Rose for example, have you seen the Wasa in Sweden, they even have the remains of her victims on display, and let’s not forget the submarine Huntley recently raised for preservation in the US. It seems to me that once out of living memory it seems o.k. to do this, and believe me when I saw Mary Rose & Wasa there were crowds of people wanting to see these vessels. And there is, as I have mentioned, a preference from me to see May Rose controlled properly by the Royal Navy Museum than seeing her remains spread all over private homes around the world. At least her crew is not forgotten.

Just my thoughts on a touchy subject.

DB

[steve roberts]

Hear Hear DB.Time is a factore in all this.I believe in Cemeterys 100 years must elapse then an untende plot can be re-used. Regards Steve.:(

[Guz rating]

DB thank you for your very informative and considered post, I believe if there are any remains in or around the wrecks they are at least entitled to a dignified burial. With a headstone stating how and why they lost their lives, What they do with the wrecks after that is immaterial as far as im concerned. I see a warship, tank, or plane as a weapon with men inside them, and sometimes I have seen them valued
beyond the lives of men. I know that my approach to this may seem more sensitive then rational im sorry put thats the way I am.

Kind regards

Alan.

[BALTICSUBS]

Hi Alan,

everyone has a view on what is a very touchy subject, and certainly nothing wrong with yours. Sometimes the general complexity of removing men from unstable war wrecks is one big reason for declaring them war graves.

Cheers DB

[Guz rating]

Hear Hear DB.Time is a factore in all this.I believe in Cemeterys 100 years must elapse then an untende plot can be re-used. Regards Steve.:(

Hi Steve I am a bit at odds with what you say, on several levels. The first is on a personal level, some of the members of my are buried in Dublin, and I have no family living there since the late fifties. Even though the graves had headstones and surrounds they are not tended, and some are coming up to one hundred years. Which now prompts me to write to the respective grave yards as I am the eldest of my family.

The second is a little project of mine, near to where I live there is a little sailors grave yard. Which contains the remains of men who fought at Trafalgar and many other battles. All of the graves are untended and some in a state of disrepair, I have tried everyone I can think of to have these graves preserved for the nation but no one is interested. I even got my nephews who are lawyers to investigate it, they came back and told me to leave it alone. But when the weather warms up I intend to go down and start to tidy them up myself.

Regards

Alan.

[steve roberts]

Hi Alan.I did not mean to offend you.If you do write to the graveyards concerned or indeed Dublin City Council,that will register a family interest in the graves and they cant be touched.I dont know what you can do about the Sailors graves near you,and as you say no one seems interested or bothered except you.Who knows if you do tidy them up,a sudden interest might appear,if not you can bet your bottom dollar no one will care.At least at the exRNH Haslar,the two thousand unmarked graves are protected by covanant. Best wishes Steve.:o

[emason]

The second is a little project of mine, near to where I live there is a little sailors grave yard. Which contains the remains of men who fought at Trafalgar and many other battles. All of the graves are untended and some in a state of disrepair, I have tried everyone I can think of to have these graves preserved for the nation but no one is interested. I even got my nephews who are lawyers to investigate it, they came back and told me to leave it alone.

Alan, have you established the owner of the graveyard? Usually the local Council is responsible for graveyards within its area. At least it should know the owner. Maybe the Land Registry could help with ownership. But you have probably already explored these lines.

If I lived closer I would come and give you a hand.

[Guz rating]

Hi Alan.I did not mean to offend you.If you do write to the graveyards concerned or indeed Dublin City Council,that will register a family interest in the graves and they cant be touched.I dont know what you can do about the Sailors graves near you,and as you say no one seems interested or bothered except you.Who knows if you do tidy them up,a sudden interest might appear,if not you can bet your bottom dollar no one will care.At least at the exRNH Haslar,the two thousand unmarked graves are protected by covanant. Best wishes Steve.:o

Steve believe me I was not offended I know you from your posts to be a decent caring man. I have the greatest respect for the branch you selected to
serve in and for you. I had first hand experience of seeing the medics in action in Vietnam, and a lot of men made it out because of them.

Regards

Alan

[Guz rating]

Alan, have you established the owner of the graveyard? Usually the local Council is responsible for graveyards within its area. At least it should know the owner. Maybe the Land Registry could help with ownership. But you have probably already explored these lines.

If I lived closer I would come and give you a hand.

Hello Bill the council is Greenwich Council they took over the the grave yard from the Admiralty. The navy
retaining the rights over the grave yard, but according to them not the obligation to maintain the graves. But this may not be their fault there are quite strict laws about interfering with plots with which is not your family plot. Anyway Bill i'll make a start in the Spring, and if you had lived near I would have welcomed your help, and at the end of the day bought you a few pints.

Regards

Alan.

[Jackaroo]

Hello Bill the council is Greenwich Council they took over the the grave yard from the Admiralty. The navy
retaining the rights over the grave yard, but according to them not the obligation to maintain the graves. But this may not be their fault there are quite strict laws about interfering with plots with which is not your family plot. Anyway Bill i'll make a start in the Spring, and if you had lived near I would have welcomed your help, and at the end of the day bought you a few pints.

Regards

Alan.

Alan

Can you not get the RBL or the RNA to help?

Cheers
Jack:cool:

[Jackaroo]

As we are talking about AE1 on AE2's thread we are off topic and off thread!:)

AE1 has its own thread here

http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5576

:o Oops sorry thats Terry's job

Cheers
Jack[ :cool:

[peterbriggs]

Hi Viv,
I am the Chairman of the AE2 Commemorative Foundation Ltd, a company set up by the Submarine Institute of Australia in 2006 and operating a tax exempt charitable trust of the same name, established to protect, preserve and tell the story of AE2.

We organised the 2007 expedition (and production of the documentary by Electric Pictures).

The 2007 expedition collected valuable data on the state of AE2 - whilst the superstructure has been badly damaged by fishing nets and corrosion, the pressure hull is intact and from the limited thickness measurements we obtained, is as thick as the day it was built.

We held a joint workshop with our Turkish colleagues in the Turkish Institute of nautical Archaeology in Istanbul in April 2008 to discuss options for the future management of AE2. The outcome was unanimous agreement to:

- Protect & preserve in situ - it is in a very benign environment + significant expense & uncertainty involved in raising her.
- Protect it from further damage/pilfering.
- Fit cathodic protection to ensure it will still be there in another 95 years.
- Open the conning tower hatch and complete the internal archaeological survey using remotely operated vehicles with cameras and instrumentation.

With the support of the Australian Government and RAN, we are now organising a second expedition, possibly in 2012, to implement these outcomes.

All the crew safely abandoned the submarine after it was fatally damaged by gunfire from the Ottoman torpedo boat, Sultanhisar on 30 April 1915. They were all rescued by Sultanhisar and well treated. Four crew died from disease during their time in Turkish POW camps.

A recently book by Vecihi & Hatice Basarin: Beneath the Dardanelles tells AE2's story from both the Australian and Turkish perspectives, and features extracts from the memoirs of the two captains. ...
www.allenandunwin.com.

Further details on our activities and current state of the project are available on our website at: www.ae2.org.au, or the SIA's website at: www.submarineinstitute.com.

Peter Briggs

[BALTICSUBS]

Hi Peter,

i have seen the docco on AE2, one part covers the ship designed by Michael Rickard-Bell to lift AE2 to a position where she can be viewed and out of harms way with a better level of protection from divers without correct intentions. The cost of this vessel are high one would guess for this project.

Have you ever considered asking the Russians if their old submarine raising vessel, the ex WW1 Volkov is still in fact structurally sound enough to raise AE2. I'm pretty sure she is still stationed in Sevastopol from last reports, so close by. Volkov did in fact raise the Russian American built AG15 in 1917, and more famously the British L55 sunk in 1919 in the Baltic. So she was capable, just not sure if age has wearied her? I can see she is used with small Russian submersibles these days, you just never know though!

DB

P.S. also a link on the forum on Volkov.

http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3854

[Jackaroo]

Hi Peter,

i have seen the docco on AE2, one part covers the ship designed by Michael Rickard-Bell to lift AE2 to a position where she can be viewed and out of harms way with a better level of protection from divers without correct intentions. The cost of this vessel are high one would guess for this project.

Have you ever considered asking the Russians if their old submarine raising vessel, the ex WW1 Volkov is still in fact structurally sound enough to raise AE2. I'm pretty sure she is still stationed in Sevastopol from last reports, so close by. Volkov did in fact raise the Russian American built AG15 in 1917, and more famously the British L55 sunk in 1919 in the Baltic. So she was capable, just not sure if age has wearied her? I can see she is used with small Russian submersibles these days, you just never know though!

DB

P.S. also a link on the forum on Volkov.

http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3854

What would the cost be to hire Volkov? (not many ships of that vintage still afloat and fully operational)

Good luck

[BALTICSUBS]

The cost, well no idea for that one, but the costs of building a purpose built lifting vessel were, and only from memory, 75 million Aussie Dollars, so will stand and be corrected is someone knows more. If the Russians charged 20 million there would be a saving!

Really, and only my thoughts here, when planning this they may not have known Volkov was close by. I have met the chap who designed the lifting vessel, and a very smart chap indeed, and have sent him a few photos of Volkov, so hope he got them as i know what an extremely busy person he is.

You would wonder how structurally sound she is after all these years as she only uses the small submersibles these days.

[Jackaroo]

The cost, well no idea for that one, but the costs of building a purpose built lifting vessel were, and only from memory, 75 million Aussie Dollars, so will stand and be corrected is someone knows more. If the Russians charged 20 million there would be a saving!

Really, and only my thoughts here, when planning this they may not have known Volkov was close by. I have met the chap who designed the lifting vessel, and a very smart chap indeed, and have sent him a few photos of Volkov, so hope he got them as i know what an extremely busy person he is.

You would wonder how structurally sound she is after all these years as she only uses the small submersibles these days.

Yeah see what you mean....On the DVD they mentioned the cost of building one...but I think if they did it would make its money back..just thinking out loud.... :rolleyes:

[BALTICSUBS]

Yeah see what you mean....On the DVD they mentioned the cost of building one...but I think if they did it would make its money back..just thinking out loud....

Maybe Canberra added some cost onto what was quoted on the DVD for the ship!

[Jackaroo]

Yeah see what you mean....On the DVD they mentioned the cost of building one...but I think if they did it would make its money back..just thinking out loud....

Maybe Canberra added some cost onto what was quoted on the DVD for the ship!

If Kev thought it would get him votes he would be visting the wreck for a photo session and promise the world and the seven seas...but then this is a naval wreck (nothing to do with Army) :p

[Teuchter]

Good morning!

I've just finished watching an interesting documentary on the History Channel about a dive on the wreck of AE2. It mixed a re-enactment of the events in 1915 with recent footage of a dive team trying to establish whether EA2 could be raised. The one hour program was not enough and I am left wondering what the present situation is. From what I can determine this was filmed in September 2007
Viv

I saw that programme last night on the discovery channel and was enthralled by it!

Anyone have the very latest update on AE2?

[BALTICSUBS]

Yep, they are going back this year for hopefully an internal look. The boys are trying to work out if the engine room bulkhead door was locked when scuttled, which evidence suggests it was.

Raising option a no go by all reports.

[Peter.J.Richardson]

Another option might be to contact via the web site - http://www.ae2.org.au/home_page.html#contact_us

Pete Richardson
http://www.ae1submarine.com/