R.N.G.S. medal with Persion Gulf clasp 1909-1914

[Kevin123]

My grandfather William Goulding served in the Royal navy from 1910-1932 and again from 1939-1945. He was awarded the R.N.G.S medal with Persian gulf clasp 1909-1914 whilst serving on H.M.S Proserpine. I was wondering if anyone has any crew photos of either H.M.S Proserpine or perhaps H.M.S. Hardy in which he was wounded in action in December 1914. I have his service record and wound certificate from 1914 but only a few photos of him from w.w.2. Thankyou Kevin.

[Odin]

Your Grandfather William Goulding is show on the medal roll for the NGS as an AB No J5417 on HMS Proserpine. The ship is shown as qualifying for the medal in the following periods:
1st Feb 1910 - 21st June 1910
4th July 1910 - 17th July 1910
1st Nov 1910 - 9th Dec 1910
28th Jan 1912 - 9th Mar 1912
Given that the total number of medals to the ship is over 400, this represents two periods (and two crews) in the Persian Gulf ie 1910 and 1912. Suggest that if he joined in 1910 and was an AB on his medal he probably served in the last period (ie 1912).
Unfortunately I don't have a picture of the Proserpine crew but given the above there would have been two lots in this campaign. So if you do find a photo from that campaign it needs to be dated for the last tour if you are hoping to find your Grandfather on there.

[Kevin123]

Thanks for your reply Odin. I've just read all your threads concerning the R.N.G.S. medals. I think you've covered everything for me. When my grandfather first retired in 1932 he held the G.S. medal and world war one trio, which is on his service record. He served again from 1939-1945, which took him to 28 years service. Do you know if this would have qualified him for the long service medal, as my father can't remember him having one. Thanks for your help. Kevin.

[Odin]

Thanks for your PM Kevin. I answer your points here if I can as there is info other Forum members may find useful.

If your Grandfather had five medals mounted together the chances are he had the NGS for Persian Gulf, a 1914-5 Star, British War Medal, Victory Medal and probably RN Long Service and Good Conduct Medal. Plus if he served in WWII the chances are he had a few WWII Medals, typically Navy guys got 1939-45 Star, Atlantic Star and the 1939-45 War Medal. If these were loose there is a real possibility they would become seperated from the rest and if you did ever find his medals, the WWII Medals may not be with them (also WWII Medals were issued unnamed but the others would all be named with his number name rank and service, with the NGS and LS&GC also showing the ship name).

If you look at his papers you may find reference to the award of a LS&GC Medal. If you have his original parchment service papers it will have a section Medals Clasps etc and will say something like Long Service and Good Conduct Medal and paid £20 Gratuity with a date. If you have a copy of what is at the National Archives (which can be downloaded via the internet) it will have the letters RMG against several entries in his conduct marks - this is him being Recommended for Medal and Gratuity for a few years before his 15 point at which time the medal is due (15 years adult service from 18 - boy service didn't count). It won't actually say awarded LS Medal but just look for RMG. If his conduct went below VG (very good) he would miss out on his medal. Naturally spells in the cells would also stop him getting his medal.

With regards to getting another Naval General Service Medal - you can buy copies of the medal but they only make more modern ones ie Elizabeth II or George VI issues - I have never seen a copy of the GV Persian Gulf issue. There are genuine GV NGS Persian Gulfs out there to other RN personnel, including to his ship mates on HMS Proserpine (I have two for Proserpine a Stoker PO and a Cpl Royal Marine Light Infantry). If you add in a 1914-15 Trio plus a Navy LSGC Medal, typically a group like that would sell for around £300.

If you check his papers to see if he received the LS&GC then I can have a try at locating his originals through a medal magazine that I subscribe to. So let me know if you can find something on his papers and I'll certainly try and locate them through Medal News.

[Kevin123]

Thanks for your reply Odin. I'm starting to understand his service record now. I'll post it and perhaps it might help other people aswell. As you can see there isn't any medal record for W.W.2. The M.O.D have looked into it but can't find any information, apart from him qualifying for the 1939-45 war medal. As soon as I get more information on him they said the will open his case again. I now know he served on mv Egyptian in 1940 and mv Forresbank in 1941. I'm slowly getting there. Kevin Goulding.

[Odin]

I can't really help you with the WWII records as it is difficult to work out medal entitlement for WWII medals from the limited information on service papers.

However I notice he received what looks like 2/- (10p!!!) prize money for capture of arms running dhows. In fact this was paid for 1-3 Nov 1910 when HMS Proserpine along with other vessels landed men at Ras Bris. In the action 3 men were wounded and 389 rifles and 32,800 rounds of ammunition were captured. In all 250 men were landed from HMS Proserpine, HMS Perseus and the armed launch HMS Tamil. The wounded men from Proserpine were Comdr HJT Marshall (bullet wound left leg) and B Halsey (multiple bullet wounds) who was an AB on his medal. As a seaman it is probably your Grandfather actually took part in this action, although all men on the ship would have received a share of the prize fund.

I'll see if I can decipher anything else from his papers. I haven't worked out what his fifth medal was as the RN received few campaign medals between 1918 and 1939. There is a break in his VG conduct so perhaps he didn't get his LS&GC Medal

[Kevin123]

Thanks Odin. I'm having a problem posting the other Two sides of his service record. They appear to be To big to send but they are the opposite sides to what I've allready sent. As you can guess, I don't understand computers. When I work it out I'll post them on. Thanks Kevin Goulding.

[Kevin123]

Hi, I've had another go at sending you my grandfathers naval record. Kevin.

[Kevin123]

This is the last page Odin. Sorry about that, I couldn't send it all at once. I think you're right about the long service medal. My dad thinks he had a campaign star with his four pre world war two medals. He thinks his other medals were loose without even pins. No one ever saw him wear them, not even on his wedding day. Kevin.

[Odin]

Kevin - I've looked at the WWII part again and can see they all appear to be 'Stone Frigates' ie UK bases. Don't know what Raven is but I can't find an actual ship of that name. So I suspect he spent the whole of WWII in the UK and would therefore be entitled to just the Defence Medal and the 1939-45 War Medal for his WWII Service. Minatures of these medals are shown below. I have another look at the rest of the papers tomorrow

[Kevin123]

Thanks for your help Odin. I'll show my dad your msg tomorrow, We might be able to come up with something else. Even when my dad joined the merchant navy my grandfather never spoke about his time in the R.N. Kevin.

[BALTICSUBS]

Hi Odin,

is the name George William Higgins on any medal list for this action? His number is J5346, his papers are the same as the ones shown here right up to HMS Dolphin. Do you have any dayes of the movements of HMS Proserpine over this time?

Cheers DB.

[Kevin123]

Hi Balticsubs. Was George Higgins on HMS Hardy in December 1914, when it was damaged in action. My grandfather and several of his mates were badly wounded, and I think two were killed. This is a scan of his wound certificate which I was given a few years a go. They've spelt his name with out the u. Kevin.

[BALTICSUBS]

Hi Kevin,

some of my notes on Higgins,

Higgins, George William, Able Seaman, Torpedoman, Official № J5346, born on the 8th of April 1892 in Slough, Buckinghamshire, Portsmouth rating, his height was listed as 5 ft 5inches tall and listed as having tattoos of a heart, anchor, and the initials WH. Prior to joining the navy Higgins was listed as a Van Boy. Higgins joined the navy at Boy 2nd Class, aged 17, on the 1st of September 1909 via the books of HMS Ganges II, He was rated as a Boy 1st Class on the 6th of December 1909. On the 15th of January 1910 Higgins’s papers changed over to the 9, 800 ton Monmouth Class armoured cruiser HMS Essex as part of the 4th Cruiser Squadron, Atlantic.
START OF HIS 12 YEARS SERVICE.
On the 8th of April 1910 Higgins began his actual 12 years service which coincided with his 18th birthday and being rated as an Ordinary Seaman. On the 28th of April 1910 Higgins’s papers changed over to the 14, 900 ton Majestic Class pre dreadnought battleship HMS Illustrious while she was with the Portsmouth Division. On the 7th of June 1910 his paper changed over to the Pelorus Class 3rd class cruiser HMS Proserpine. On the 19th of January 1912 Higgins was rated as an Able Seaman., after which on the 30th of April 1912 his papers changed over to HMS Excellent. On the 16th of August 1912 Higgins gained the sub rating of Seaman Torpedoman.
.
On the 2nd of February 1913 his papers changed over to the books of the shore establishment HMS Victory I. On the 6th of February 1913 his papers changed over to HMS Dolphin, but it is unknown if he joined submarines or the actual depot ship HMS Dolphin which was an 1882 screw sloop served as a submarine depot ship in WWI. On the 4th of April 1913 Higgins was granted his 1st Good Conduct Badge while still serving with HMS Dolphin.

On the 10th of January 1914 his papers changed over to the destroyer depot ship HMS Hecla, where he served on the destroyer HMS Fortune.

Higgins was on the books of HMS Dolphin again by April 1915 and went out to the Baltic on the submarine E8, but you will be interested to know he returned in January 1917, (with my great grandfather), and while remaining on the books of HMS Victory I, Higgins made his way up to the Scotts Shipbuilding and Engineering Company, Greenock to stand by the completing 4,190 ton C Class cruiser HMS Caradoc. She was commissioned into the Navy on 15th June 1917 with his papers changing over to her on the following day, (same again as your grandfather). On the 11th of October 1917 Higgins had his 1st Good Conduct Badge deprived for an unknown offence, and on the 8th of January 1918 Higgins was given 7 days in the cells for an unknown offence, rejoining the books of HMS Caradoc on the 16th of January 1918 until his papers changed to the books of HMS Victory I on the 28th of February 1918. He ended up on HMS Malaya, HMS Speedy, and HMS Iron Duke before leaving the navy in 1922 at the end of his 12 years.

This was the last time your grandfather served with Higgins. Would love to know which submarine your grandfather served on when with HMS Dolphin and HMS Lucia? Strange how they followed each others moves isn't it?

I have a photo of my great grandfather arriving back from the Baltic in 1917, and there is an E8 man in the photo, only 2 came back at that stage, so this could be Higgins but i have no way of confirming this.

Cheers DB.

[Kevin123]

Hi Balticsubs. George and William were born in the same year as well. It really is uncanny how they seemed to follow each other around. I'll talk to my father tomorrow and see if he can remember a bit more about things. I've found a couple of photos from that time, I'm not sure which ship the first one was taken on, but in the second photo there are three sailors from HMS Caradoc. I'm not sure which year though. Kevin.

[BALTICSUBS]

Hi Kevin,

the problem i have is the 2 E8 crew photos if have are not my propertry so will look at sending them privately. That second photo could hold something to do with Higgins, and yes one would have to think they would have known each other very well, it is uncanny how they followed each other.

Cheers DB.

[Odin]

DB - going back to your original question - I can confirm AB GW Higgins (J5346) was awarded the Naval General Service Medal with the bar Persian Gulf 1909-1914. His medal is impressed to HMS Proserpine.

HMS Proserpine qualified for the medal during the following times:
1st Feb 1910 - 21st June 1910
4th July 1910 - 17th July 1910
1st Nov 1910 - 9th Dec 1910
28th Jan 1912 - 9th Mar 1912

From your notes he served on the ship during these last three qualifying periods. As he changed to HMS Excellent in Apr 1912 it is reasonable to assume that Proserpine came back to the UK after the 9th Mar.

Often men qualified for the medal through service on several ships - this is not the case for AB Higgins - he only served on the one ship. The highest rank he achieved during the campaign (in his case AB) is also shown on his medal. He would have qualified for prize money re 1-3 Nov 1910 when Proserpine and other vessels (inc HMS Philomel and the Armed Launch HMS Tamil) landed 250 men at Ras Bris, who then captured 389 rifles and 32,800 rounds of ammunition.

Hope the above is some help

[BALTICSUBS]

Hi Odin,

thanks for that. He could very well be in that photo that Keven has put up. I'm very weak when it comes to medals, so are they wearing something in that photo that designates the Persian Gulf?

With Higgins, well being on E8, i won't fall into the trap in saying that he should be wearing the Cross of St George which he should have won on E8 for sinking the Prinz Adalbert.

Two reasons, i found in Jan 1916 he was in Hospital, and when she did sink Adalbert on the 23rd of October 1915 she had a Torpedoman from another sub on board. It was quoted that in hospital he was was now able to walk around, so he could have been injured for some time.

So good chance he missed this Cross and why he, if it is him in that photo, is not wearing one.

I'll do some more homework. Any more chaps i find for Persia, i will post here for you.

Cheers DB

[Kevin123]

Hi Balticsubs. I've spoken to my father but he can't remember my grandfather saying anything about serving on submarines. I'll carry on looking through his old papers to see if I can come up with something new. Kevin.

[BALTICSUBS]

Hi Kevin,

going by his papers he did serve in subs, this is under the books of HMS Dolphin from June 1915 until Sept 1916, and then the submarine depot ship HMS Lucia from September 1916 to January 1917. Strange that Higgins left subs in Jan 1917 as well, wonder why they followed each other so closly.

Will ask a college if he has anything on your relo as he has a data base on submariners.

So which one in the photo of the three sailors is your relo?

Cheers DB.

[Kevin123]

Hi Balticsubs. My grandfather served time in the cells as well, and he also lost a good conduct stripe at about the same time as George Higgens. My dad thinks it was for overstaying his leave. It will be nice to find out the full story. Kevin.

[BALTICSUBS]

Hi Kevin,

i have no doubt these two were great mates, and Higgins may be in that photo, which one is your relo?

Cheers DB.

[james_harvey]

Hi Kevin

Just taken a quick look at his record, he wouldn't have received the LSGC medal as he was sent to cells in 1917, he would then have to do another 15 yrs GC to get the medal, time spent as a pensioner did not count.

Regards

James

[Kevin123]

Sorry for the delay in replying James. I wonder if it's possible to find out what my grandads punishment was for, I was always told it was for over staying his leave. It seems a bit harsh to miss out on a good conduct medal over something like that. I suppose they were a lot harder in those days. Kevin.

[Jan Steer]

Odin, Raven was an RN Air station at Eastleigh, Southampton

Jan

[Kevin123]

Jan, I've often wondered where HMS Raven was. My grandad was based there in 1939-40. He was from Romsey so it would have been local for him. Kevin.